Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT
 

So the game lets you choose a character from a wide selection, choose what you prefer the look of and enjoy :) thats my opinion. Art styles varry and from the Mona Lisa to this game. People like, hate and hold things with great indifference no matter the medium... the internet just seems to allow people to think acting childish is ok somehow letting them run there mouth with dangerous venom.

Near 50% of women represents gamer's. The market of videogames looks like:
Female dominated:
Mix:
Male Dominated:
Most of the games we play are center in Male dominated market. Why do I bring this up? Because, women for what ever reason doesn't bother to play or buy the games, meaning this whole pandering, the whole "sexism" shit is one loud ass minority that wants to look progressive, and hip, with out actually taking part in the market. Dragon Crown was picked because it was niche, and probably figured that people would join in large groups, because most wouldn't care about some niche game.

cookyy2k:
Thing should be taken as intended, if no offence is intended then it's fine.

Sorry, but no. Art is much more than simply what the artist intends. Leni Riefenstahl may have just intended to make beautiful films without offending anybody, but that doesn't make her subject matter and association with the Nazi Party irrelevant.

And how are we supposed to always take things as "the artist intended" when the intent is not always clear, even to the artists themselves?

Some people will get offended but that is not because of the artist's work that's because they put their own interpretation on it. Some of the great works of art, music and film were very controversial in their day. Either everything is ok or nothing is, stop trying to draw arbitrary "do not cross" lines all over the place.

So, if everything is OK, then why is drawing arbitrary "do not cross" lines not OK?

evilthecat:

Imperator_DK:
I'm pretty sure Kamitani can handle a bit of hate mail from offended people who'd never have bought the game anyway - and hence really have no business commenting on it, any more than straight men have commenting on gay porn offending them - if the pain is soothed by sales figures. The thing that actually matters.

Yes, because gay men never buy games. They're too busy oiling each other up and dressing up in leather to have normal hobbies.

And obviously, the only media gay people can consume is gay porn, because of course that's the only media specifically targeted at them to the exclusion of other demographics. No gay person would ever buy a piece of media intended primarily for a heterosexual audience. Why would they need to, I mean they have plenty of gay porn to watch.

Maybe I spoke too soon about Japan having a problem with casual homophobia..

I don't no, to my understanding the slender, effeminate male is the standard of sexiness in Japan, the dwarves where the western extreme of muscle bound me which was what he was going for. His eagerness and misinterpretation was unfortunate but as far as I'm concerned any offence taken by the dwarves should stop at his apology.

Hey, it's actually okay to make an objectified female character. People who dislike the game don't have to buy it. It's a super simple concept!

Y'always gets more done when peeps be chill.

evilthecat:

Imperator_DK:
I'm pretty sure Kamitani can handle a bit of hate mail from offended people who'd never have bought the game anyway - and hence really have no business commenting on it, any more than straight men have commenting on gay porn offending them - if the pain is soothed by sales figures. The thing that actually matters.

Yes, because gay men never buy games. They're too busy oiling each other up and dressing up in leather to have normal hobbies.

And obviously, the only media gay people can consume is gay porn, because of course that's the only media specifically targeted at them to the exclusion of other demographics. No gay person would ever buy a piece of media intended primarily for a heterosexual audience. Why would they need to, I mean they have plenty of gay porn to watch.

Maybe I spoke too soon about Japan having a problem with casual homophobia..

...what?

Unless you can show that a commercially significant segment of gay people were going to buy "Dragon's Crown", and now won't, then whether or not gay people buy games in general has no relevance.

I honestly don't know how you'd get the idea that I assume gay people only buy gay porn. Bit of hypersensitivity there I suppose. However, if 100 gay people who knew about the game before the controversy boycott "Dragons Crown" over Kamitani, while 10,000 other people buy it because they've come to notice it through the controversy, that's an example of controversy-as-successful-marketing.

I do assume that most gay gamers - as with most straight gamers - didn't know about the game in advance of the controversy, and thus weren't interested in buying it. Hence most of the hatemail will be from people who weren't going to buy the game anyway. If you have knowledge that this game was somehow insanely popular in gay circles before this whole controversy business, by all means correct my assumption.

Archangel357:
Women are 50% of the population. How many members of Western parliaments are women? How many are CEOs of multinational corporations? Wall Street banks? How many are heads of government/state?
Not to mention the fact that you neglect the reason WHY women end up more often doing lower-paying work.

Far more women vote then men(at least in the US), so women have to power to choose who they want for elected positions in the government, they choose to put men in power.
And women end up doing lower paid work because they do not prioritize money and overt power over everything like men do. Women prioritize things like safety, flexible work hours, time off, and low stress jobs over overt power and money, where as men prioritize overt power and money over other benefits. This does not apply to all men and women but it does to most.

ccdohl:
Hey, it's actually okay to make an objectified female character. People who dislike the game don't have to buy it. It's a super simple concept!

Beside the point. To use some hyperbole, I know that I wouldn't buy a game called Big Titty Rapeavaganza, but I can still criticise its existence and the aesthetic and commercial reasoning behind it.

As I have said, this is about the raging insecurity of a large part of the gaming community. People don't want to be perceived as pervs, because as gamers, we have been enduring years of people calling us socially awkward virgin shut-ins with rape fantasies. Those stereotypes hurt, no matter the bluster people try to hide behind.

A society which loves titties but is too hypocritical to admit it has forced a segment of the population to decry the depiction of titties for fear of being perceived as pervs by the same sanctimonious hypocrites. It's really insane.

I would understand this backlash if the art and design in this game wasn't so amazing. But it is AMAZING! Some of the best 2d design, and I am talking about the whole thing, not just two of the female player characters, I have seen in my gaming life.
Sometimes I don't get people. If this game is ever released on PC I will snap it up in a heartbeat.

Fine, discuss this but remember there isn't any discussions going on about treating men fairly in forums related to women's soap apras(don't know about the US but the ones in my country are very much against men and I have two sisters who love watching them) or romantic comedies or teen lit or anything else that women are the target audience for. Why?

If I enjoy some parts of Nacny Drew games but don't enjoy others, I won't complain, because I am not the target audience.

And women, at least your brothers, boyfriends, friends or other men in your life don't play things that offend you in front of you. My sisters do it right in the next room over and I have to listen to that bullshit everyday. At least its just visuals you can block out and not loud offensive dialog that you can't.

AND FYI: I hate both sidescrollers and heavily sexuaized games.
Soaps aren't changing to not offend me, why should games change to not offend you?

shephardjhon:
Soaps aren't changing to not offend me, why should games change to not offend you?

Because people who watch soap operas either don't strive for mainstream recognition (because they are as mainstream as it gets), or don't care about the stereotypes people assign to them (because nobody on Fox News has ever tried to blame soap operas for everything from rape to terrorism and school shootings).

It's not about the game. Never has been. It's about the perception of the gaming community in its own eyes vs its perception in the eyes of the general public.

xPixelatedx:
I would have a lot more of a problem with those "female character designs" if the men weren't equally absurd. Men don't look like that. It just seems to be the artist's style to exaggerate gender qualities.

Men are big, muscled brutes? Well, mine will be the biggest and most muscled brutes! Women have breasts? Well, mine will have ridiculous breasts!

etc. He took the qualities people often focus on (consciously and subconsciously) and embellished them in a stylistic way, and because he did it with both genders, this technically had nothing to do with women specifically.

Now, if the men looked like real people, but the women looked the same as their current designs, THEN I would be very disturbed.
I find games like DoA Beach volley ball VERY disturbing.

This argument has come up once or twice, and it's an understandable one, but also an ultimately flawed one.

Yes, this is clearly about exaggerated gender qualities, but it's important to remember that those gender qualities are not entirely biological, they are societal. Specifically, over-emphasizing muscular physique in men is derived from the perception that men derive power from physical strength. Similarly, over-emphasizing breasts or butts in women is derived from the perception that women derive power from physical desirability. The reason this is a problem should be fairly obvious, but I'll be a little more specific since the whole point of this video is discussion.

To put it simply, rippling muscles are associated with power because people who have them are generally capable of great physical prowess. However, the reason large breasts are associated with power is because the women who have them are perceived as desirable to other people. In other words, muscles = powerful on your own, breasts = powerful through someone else (probably a man).

In other words, a dwarf built like a brick shit house is not the same thing as a sorceress with planetary breasts. What WOULD be the same thing would be something more like what Penny Arcade outlined (slight NSFW):

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-svhrTpg/0/950x10000/i-svhrTpg-950x10000.jpg

Aside from just being funny, the point isn't that the sorceress looks unrealistic, it's that the parts of her that are unrealistic are the parts that are perceived as appealing to a particular gender/sexuality. A guy might say that they have no problem with the unrealistic male characters, but if there was a male character whose junk was enormous and wobbly, it probably would make you feel at least a little bit uncomfortable.

One might counter by saying that they still wouldn't mind because they could just pick a different character who doesn't have weird junk, but imagine if almost every male character in the industry had weird disproportionate junk and the women didn't. Doesn't that seem a teensy bit alienating? What if this game had three male characters, two of them had enormous balls, and only one of them looked normal? Wouldn't you feel a little bothered that you essentially only have one character choice that didn't make you feel uncomfortable?

Again, this isn't necessarily a condemnation of this particular style. I actually kinda like it in a weird perverse way. But it's not difficult to understand why a lot of women feel alienated by this industry, and it's also not difficult to remedy that. We don't have to get rid of these character designs, but the people who complain about them have a right to be upset and to feel uncomfortable with how their sex is portrayed in general.

Archangel357:
...
Because there are things such as canon and objective quality in art, and critics are the ones tasked with upholding those things. If we only measured commercial success, Sex and the City 2 would be considered a better movie than Melancholia (don't get hung up on the examples, just illustrating a point here), and the idea of critical acclaim would go right out the window.

Well, that's debatable, but lets assume quality is objective.

To be constructive, any criticism must in that case still be aimed at the actual product and the purpose it serves, and how it could be served better. Constructive criticism of Sex and the City 2 would be aimed at how to improve it, in regard to serving its own intended purpose. Somebody telling people that they should just go watch Melancholia instead isn't offering up constructive criticism of the genre or purpose of Sex and the City; They're substituting them with their own interests, showing a complete lack of respect for the interests of the people they're purported advising.

A critic would aim for a better Sex and the City, or something which is better at conveying its intended messages and artistic vision. If you're a critic of Jazz, then you don't tell people that Jazz is shit, and they should be listening to classical music instead. To simply say that people should just watch something entirely different altogether isn't actual constructive criticism, so much as it's annoying and pretentious arrogance without any actual usefulness. It's on par with all the trolls telling all those people who like My Little Pony that they should feel bad for liking a children's show, instead of manly things. Which is also where the "critics" of Dragon's Crown would fall on the relevancy scale.

Red X:

Imperator_DK:

If people are enjoying Twilight, what business do you - who don't have to go see it, and don't have any stake in the franchise - have criticizing it? People can figure that out for themselves,

I don't know, it's popularity seems to suggest that hasn't happened yet XD

I guess we need to wait 10 more years :)

Well, I'm pretty sure the fanbase doesn't stay the same over the years.

Everyone have liked shit without much artistic merit at some point, and many still do. Which is perfectly fine, since each individual is entitled to its own taste and preferences.

Legion:
SNIP

Well, I didn't want to get through everything yet, since I feel like I HAVE to say something for some reason, but this basically summed it up. We can't have a debate when nobody is willing to even follow through with it, that's just the way of things. I just wonder how we can change this, but I'm pretty sure it's nigh-on impossible. Everyone's diverse, maybe too much so, to the point where you don't know if they will let you say your thing and let it soak in.

As for gameplay, I also got an experience akin to yours: I play Archeblade, and if you look at the design, it's just... well, let's say people will be quick to yell out sexism. But I enjoy having played it. The designs didn't matter to me, whether I saw panties constantly or not, whether this one corrupted elf was only wearing something in front, since I was focusing on the game itself rather than what the design is.

Or if we're talking about story, I'm not sure if I remember this right, but I don't think I worried about having sex with any girl in katawa shoujo. I didn't care if I saw Hanako as tittilating, I saw her as a shy person first and, after a while, a strong person with her own ideas on things. I didn't care if Emi was that short, she was enthusiastic about what she did, she had fun all through life even if she did have something holding her back.

Designs might matter, but characterization can trump it quite easily.

On the other side, the industry can do without making EVERY woman appeal to a certain vision. I would like some diversity when it comes down to it.

Legion:

Toilet:
I guess I will open a discussion because I am totally ignorant on the subject.

I keep on hearing about how character designs like the Tittymancer in Dragons Crown and other exaggerated designed females are a problem but I have yet to hear why they are a problem. I get a lot of "because sexism" answers but it doesn't answer my question.

The argument is that it objectifies women and reduces them to nothing more than sexual fantasies. There are also those that argue that it affects the perception of women in real life. As well as people who say it makes them uncomfortable that there are not many normal women to play as so they have to play as overly-sexual characters instead.

Personally I think the first one is very much a case-by-case basis. Games where the women are literally nothing more than T+A as far as design is concerned are a problem (Rachel Ninja Gaiden 2), but I don't see the problem when they actually have decent character design as well. If they are good characters as well as being sexy then they are not "reduced" to anything.

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

The third one I completely agree with, and I dislike games where the male characters are properly outfitted and proportioned, whereas the women are wearing bikini chainmail for no apparent reason.

Then again, I am also fairly desensitised to this kind of thing, so when I see skimpy outfits I more or less blank them. People kept on talking about Elizabeth's dress in Bioshock Infinite having massive cleavage, but I didn't even notice until somebody mentioned it.

I wouldn't even agree that any of those things are "problems" that need to be solved. Reducing women to nothing more than sexual fantasies is just as "violent media causes real life media" as the altered perception of women in real life thing is. I'm a big boy, I know that women are real people too in real life, I don't need video games to be super realistic in that regard lest I forget.

The third one is the only one I find unable to immediately dismiss for being just as nanners as "GTA makes you kill cops" logic. But even then, there still needs to be some allowance for the game creators to make what they want. If they want to make sexualized characters for whatever reason, why should they be told "No, I want more games with normal looking characters"? It's their game, let them make what they want.

Let me make it clear that I'm certainly not against games having normal women you can play as. I'd never look at a game that had a playable normal looking woman for a character and refuse to buy it or play as her over it. But at the same time, I'm not going to try and tell developers that they should only have normal women in their games either. Not every game out there needs to be one where the developer takes a stand against sexualized cahracters and makes normal men and women. Make what you want in terms of character designs. I've got far more unsavory things going into my games or being taken out of my games to bitch about. DRM, day one DLC, on disc DLC, online passes, you know, the whole list of shit that's ruining companies like EA while they're too stupid to realize it and keep on doing it.

So, anyway, Beyond Two Souls, that one's looking pretty sweet, right? Willem Dafoe [B]and[B] a main female character without massive tits that are always hanging out.

zerabp:
Thanks Jim! Communication is one of the greatest and most underutilized skills on the planet. What's great is when truly communicating, even when you both end up disagreeing with each-other, you are still both left with a greater respect for the others opinion.

Just imagine if we did this with politics, religion, even day-to-day conversations. The world would be a hundred times better.

I think what we should all take from this is....

Beyond Good and Evil is a fucking great game.

Pat Hulse:

Aside from just being funny, the point isn't that the sorceress looks unrealistic, it's that the parts of her that are unrealistic are the parts that are perceived as appealing to a particular gender/sexuality. A guy might say that they have no problem with the unrealistic male characters, but if there was a male character whose junk was enormous and wobbly, it probably would make you feel at least a little bit uncomfortable.

One might counter by saying that they still wouldn't mind because they could just pick a different character who doesn't have weird junk, but imagine if almost every male character in the industry had weird disproportionate junk and the women didn't. Doesn't that seem a teensy bit alienating? What if this game had three male characters, two of them had enormous balls, and only one of them looked normal? Wouldn't you feel a little bothered that you essentially only have one character choice that didn't make you feel uncomfortable?

Again, this isn't necessarily a condemnation of this particular style. I actually kinda like it in a weird perverse way. But it's not difficult to understand why a lot of women feel alienated by this industry, and it's also not difficult to remedy that. We don't have to get rid of these character designs, but the people who complain about them have a right to be upset and to feel uncomfortable with how their sex is portrayed in general.

That some people think a breast is on par with a penis really shows how puritanical of a culture we live in.

Is anyone else reminded of the phrase "undo concern for women is what leads to contempt for them"?

Aardvaarkman:
Nazi

143 posts into the thread and it's Godwin time.

This is why the internet isn't capable of having these sorts of discussions; as was noted a couple of pages earlier, as long as it's a flame war with a hypothetical winner and a hypothetical loser, as long as the combatants are arrogant shits who will never contemplate a micrometre of budging in their position lest it be seen as a sign of weakness, as long as the parties are ideologically opposed, as long as the Nazi card is still in the hand, as long as all this goes on, this wheel will continue to turn and roll round with the exact same non-outcome every time some new title appears.

I'd love a discussion, with a rational and reasoned debate between people willing to help each other find a mutually agreeable resolution. It's never going to happen.

Nothing too see here but American's getting bent out of shape from a huge set of digital tits, move along.

jluzar20:
Is anyone else reminded of the phrase "undo concern for women is what leads to contempt for them"?

This is basically why no one likes a white knight in real life. They usually are just trying to pave over there misogyny with a thin layer of chivalry. When underneath they probably thing just as many nasty thoughts about women as they let you know. Which is why several women I know who have decided to date a "white knight" turn into a controlling domineering bf, which then leads to a break up because the said white knight is all YOU ARE A WOMAN YOU SHOULDN'T ACT LIKE THAT!! Or one bf who broke up with a gf because she farted. Bodily Functions are serious business.

Red X:
I don't no, to my understanding the slender, effeminate male is the standard of sexiness in Japan, the dwarves where the western extreme of muscle bound me which was what he was going for.

That doesn't even make sense.

Maybe if Schreier had said something about Japanese games in general, or implied that Japanese depictions of women were particularly bad, but he didn't do that. Moreover, the Dwarf in question is a character in the same game as the aforementioned Sorceress and the Amazon, a game being developed by a Japanese studio with artwork drawn by a Japanese man. Indeed, despite the clear influence from certain genres of Western fantasy art the art style is still unmistakably Japanese in visual style. So why? How would that point even work?

Is he saying that the dwarf character is only in the game to take the piss out of Western character design, because firstly that directly contradicts his apology, and secondly.. no.. the preference for "effeminate" character designs is extremely genre specific in Japanese art. If you only look at material designed for young girls, then I can see how you'd get that impression, but really..

Imperator_DK:
Unless you can show that a commercially significant segment of gay people were going to buy "Dragon's Crown", and now won't, then whether or not gay people buy games in general has no relevance.

I do not need to do any such thing, because you already made the assumption that there aren't a statistically significant number of gay people who might be interested in this game. Why?

Either there is something about this game which would prevent gay people from buying and enjoying it, or you believe that gay people are a "statistically insignificant" section of the population. Which is it?

And you might have noticed, this is actually why I'm commenting here, because this event is being reported as being purely about the boobs. I can pretty much guaruntee that if anyone but Kotaku itself was reporting the story as "Dragon's Crown dev is homophobic cunt", which is actually closer to what happened, the number of people drawn to the game by that publicity would be far, far lower.

Good one Jim, i really like it better when you don,t trow shit on the wall to pass your message, i agree with you Jim again this time, now i expect flying pig cause i agree with you 2 weeks in a row

Kinitawowi:

Aardvaarkman:
Nazi

143 posts into the thread and it's Godwin time.

Invoking Godwin's Law (incorrectly) is actually the opposite of promoting discussion. The idea that any mention of Nazis is inappropriate is not the actual meaning behind Godwin's Law. The Nazi regime and the events involved in WWII are perfectly legitimate discussion material. Why would you want to ignore history?

WWII was only the most significant event of the 20th Century - and we're supposed to pretend that it didn't exist because of some internet meme?

I'd love a discussion, with a rational and reasoned debate between people willing to help each other find a mutually agreeable resolution. It's never going to happen.

If you'd like a discussion, how about discussing what I said, rather than reflexively saying that my post is inappropriate because I mentioned an artist who happened to be a Nazi, even though the topic under discussion is largely about art, taste and censorship?

QtheMuse:

jluzar20:
Is anyone else reminded of the phrase "undo concern for women is what leads to contempt for them"?

This is basically why no one likes a white knight in real life. They usually are just trying to pave over there misogyny with a thin layer of chivalry. When underneath they probably thing just as many nasty thoughts about women as they let you know. Which is why several women I know who have decided to date a "white knight" turn into a controlling domineering bf, which then leads to a break up because the said white knight is all YOU ARE A WOMAN YOU SHOULDN'T ACT LIKE THAT!! Or one bf who broke up with a gf because she farted. Bodily Functions are serious business.

I instantly thought of that Southpark episode. You know the one.

Idunno. I appreciate a little titillation as much as the next guy, and I see the video game industry making strides with female characterization enough to think that its just the growing pains of a young art form.

Imperator_DK:

...what?

Unless you can show that a commercially significant segment of gay people were going to buy "Dragon's Crown", and now won't, then whether or not gay people buy games in general has no relevance.

Why? I was not aware that only people who intended to buy a game were allowed to comment on a game. Since when was the only thing that mattered about games was their commercial success?

Pat Hulse:

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-svhrTpg/0/950x10000/i-svhrTpg-950x10000.jpg

Aside from just being funny, the point isn't that the sorceress looks unrealistic, it's that the parts of her that are unrealistic are the parts that are perceived as appealing to a particular gender/sexuality. A guy might say that they have no problem with the unrealistic male characters, but if there was a male character whose junk was enormous and wobbly, it probably would make you feel at least a little bit uncomfortable.

The problem with that image is it is a false equivalence. The sorceress was made to appeal to men. The guy with a giant member was made to annoy... men. The equivalent would be something made with women as the target.

I'll try to be calm.

I get why people don't like this stuff, I don't like it myself.

What I don't get is why this has to be a huge issue. There are games without women in skimpy outfits which you can play, so to me saying this is a sexism issue or whatever just seems like people making a moral crusade (for lack of a better term) out of their game preference.

To me the people who hate this have no greater cause to be on a moral crusade than people who hate quick time events or regenerating health or whatever. You don't have to like it but it's nothing more important than you not liking a popular game design.

I get that these women in skimpy outfits seem to overcrowd all other women, but I think the answer here is to not demand that people stop making sexy women, but that they make more female characters that are modest. That way we'll have both so the people who like that stuff don't have to feel attacked.

Does that make sense?

To put it another way, there was this woman who got fed up with how it seemed like the vast majority of Halloween costumes for adult women were supposed to be sexy. So she started a website to fix that. She doesn't discourage anyone from making sexy costumes or wearing sexy costumes, instead she just has instructions on how to make a wide variety of non-sexy Halloween costumes for women. That's it.

That should be similar to our approach IMO. I know it's probably a lot easier to make a Halloween costume than a video game, even an indie one, but new games with women who aren't skimpy is what we should be asking for, or making (as opposed to asking developers to modify the games they wanted to make sexy).

Oh and here's that woman's website if anyone's interested

http://takebackhalloween.org/

evilthecat:
...
I do not need to do any such thing, because you already made the assumption that there aren't a statistically significant number of gay people who might be interested in this game. Why?

Either there is something about this game which would prevent gay people from buying and enjoying it, or you believe that gay people are a "statistically insignificant" section of the population. Which is it?

I believe the number of gay people with interest in this game prior to the controversy to be insignificant from a commercial point of view, when compared to the amount of people interested in it after the controversy happened. Hence the losses incurred from the controversy are insignificant, even assuming that every last gay person with prior interest is now boycotting the game (which would be doubtful, as I doubt all are equally easily offended, or intend to punish a game release for a debacle one designer on it got himself into).

Some straight people with prior interest might of course boycott it as well, be it over breasts or dwarves. But given the exponential increase in exposition, the amount of new potential customers reached through this whole controversy business more than makes it worth it. Hence there is little in the way of "damage" from it.

And you might have noticed, this is actually why I'm commenting here, because this event is being reported as being purely about the boobs. I can pretty much guaruntee that if anyone but Kotaku itself was reporting the story as "Dragon's Crown dev is homophobic cunt", which is actually closer to what happened, the number of people drawn to the game by that publicity would be far, far lower.

Well, they aren't, are they now?

And really, I'm pretty sure the idea of a game designer posting some homoerotic dwarves in response to overdone criticism of his work won't offend that many people to the point of boycott. Might even attract some groups.

The Facebook comments below the video are actually for the most part very calm and orderly discussions. its only in here that things seem more on the side of arguing and petty assumptions about people. We all need to get off our high horses, stop assuming we are 100% correct about other people's motives for the opinions they have, the games they like, ect. And as Jim said, try and be understanding.

I'm VERY sad for the people(not just women) who are dying for more well developed, interesting, and multidimensional female characters in games. I feel your pain, I really do, and I'm right there with you praising every game that releases with said characters. However we cannot go around attacking every game on the opposite end of the spectrum. We'd all love to see games with more, and we have every right to be disappointed when a new game releases that has less. But we shouldn't go around throwing out insults towards the developers, and fans of that game, and start using terms like misogynist and "boys club" just because we feel left out.

Instead express your interests to developers. Let them know what a large market there is for something outside the realm of over sexualized characters, and unrealistic proportions. Get a POSITIVE movement going for the CREATION of something new instead of leading the NEGATIVE charge of the attempted DESTRUCTION of the old.

Bottom line, criticizing and complaining about games that offend or don't appeal to you doesn't work. Because there will always be a market for those things, and just like you, that market has a right to like what they like, and have things made for them. Instead focus efforts onto something more positive.

Hope we can all get along and agree that MORE games is the answer, not LESS games. PEACE! :D

You know, if it weren't for The Sorceress, I'd say the game looks awesome, it reminds me of Muramasa: The Demon Blade... Oh wait, it was made by the same people... That's a little embarrassing. Anyway, I personally don't like the design, especially, it makes me feel awkward and uncomfortable looking at it. Still, I DO think that yeah, decrying the design artist involved wasn't cool... Although implying that the complainer is gay in response is definitely NOT cool.

I find the entire art set for Dragons Crown kind of creepy with the exception of the Archer Girl and Wizard, who are the least exaggerated of the bunch. I just can't understand why someone needed to make the art style like that when Dungeons and Dragons games often become parodies in themselves, regardless of the artwork.

Imperator_DK:

Archangel357:
...
What you are doing is leading the entire notion of critique ad absurdum. Sure, pointing out that Twilight or Transformers 2 are stupid, pandering drivel won't keep millions from watching them, but it needs to be said nonetheless.

Why?

If people are enjoying Twilight, what business do you - who don't have to go see it, and don't have any stake in the franchise - have criticizing it? People can figure that out for themselves, and the people who're actually vested in the thing should determine which path it should take. Let 13 year old girls and desperate housewives be the judge of products aimed at 13 year old girls and desperate housewives.

Archangel357:
The problem at large here, and the reason for all this, is the self-conscious reaction of a large segement of the gaming population which does not want to be perceived as the kind of people who enjoy this kind of pandering, since it plays right into the stereotypes about our community held by the general population.

Well, since there's nothing harmful about enjoying pandering, they should simply own up their desires instead. If the target demographic weren't actually that kind of people, then it wouldn't be created. Which would lead to the same reaction, as they obviously won't be standing idly by to watch the games they enjoy being purged.

Why? Because no man is an island. The nature of exchange is inclusive and exchange directly influences those who produce. The values of an artist are proliferated by the success of any one game or film or show they create. They are enabled through profits to produce more works which in turn further promote their values. Hence, we have a marketplace of ideas. No market is truly free when only those who enjoy a product are given credence. Products are not purged by criticism. Criticism is the mechanism by which produces evolve. Those unable to evolve fail.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here