Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

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Geo Da Sponge:

KIFulgore:
Great review... basically everything I thought would be wrong with MGS4 (or at least could be better).

Now about the Ninja Gaiden 2 trailer, did they *really* use that fucking CCHHJJJJUUURRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!! scream you hear in every cheesy B-movie, shitty game, and horror movie trailer ever created??

You mean the 'CCHHJJJJUUURRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!' that was originally, as far as I know, used in Starcraft? Which everyone knows is a 'shitty game'.

It was used long before that. The first time it popped up (from what I hear), was in the movie Broken Arrow in 1996 and has been used in countless movies and games since.

@nightfish
I meant right at the end where the Escapist advertises all of the content it shows :)

TerraMGP:
If you just want to play the game you should have bought another game, and if you can't understand why details are repeated in the series then frankly your not paying close enough attention. The problem is that people see these 'merits' as things held against COMMON games. This is part of a series. Its like picking up the last book in a series that has a writing style you don't like and complaining that the story is bad because you don't understand it and you think plot points are repeated way too much. In the end I think the problem is with people having too narrow a view of what video games should be and lacking an appreciation for the writing.

As for why your trying, I think its because your too dense to realize your wrong.

I would have respected your opinion if you had cut off the last two sentences. Claiming people are stupid just because they disagree with you is... Well, it's stupid.

only the last one was a barb at anyone though. I don't think the narrow view is a result of stupidity at all, I think its more cultural and it extends past gaming. People seem to have this thought that "Things are what they are and that is it" and that just kind of gets frustrating when they let that blind them to something potentially good.

Kanashe:

brice85:

TerraMGP (Pants-on-head-retarded):
People think its too much storytelling beacuse they don't understand, or perhaps don't care how intricate the man is. He's detail oriented. The whole intention of this game was to tie up all the loose ends.

</RE-fail>

Let me stop you right there professor... People say it's too much storytelling because they don't WANT or NEED to understand; because:
A. They want to PLAY the GAME already,
B. The "detailed" information was already referenced and belabored 49,637.2 times already, or
C. All of the above.

You can still have a game that is detailed oriented that does not remove you from being IN the game, and instead leave you being a helpless observer of a cinematic cut-scene. That's like going to read a book and the entire book is pictures. You want to CREATE the pictures in your head, not have them spelled out for you, eliminating the need for you imagination.

If you liked the previous MGS's, and you're an OCD information-whore, then great; I'm sure this was right up your alley.

But since a lot of people haven't, and we're still allowed to hold games accountable to their individual merits regardless what "series" they're apart of--since they are all still GAMES at their core--then you'll just have to forgive the majority of people for basing it against the very medium it claims to be a part of.

I feel as though someone else already said this though, like the person who created the video you've been brainlessly commenting on for the past few days... so I'm not sure why I'm trying too :(

Listen ya want GAME PLAY then go an play Painkiller or Serious Sam. It'll give enough game play for your dried up brain, MGS focuses on story telling an plot twists, that what makes it original an unique. If we wanted just game play, we could get pointless shit like Splinter Cell, or the pointless FPS shooters

...

Then why the FUCK isn't MGS a movie you twat?

I thought the story in MGS4 was ridiculous long before Yahtzee's review, thank you very much :D

Well if you thought it was long before then it really was not for you to begin with, but to say its bad writing, I really think thats a band wagon that many are jumping on more because he said it.

TerraMGP:
Well if you thought it was long before then it really was not for you to begin with, but to say its bad writing, I really think thats a band wagon that many are jumping on more because he said it.

Are you sure it's not because of the repetitive dialogue, 30 minute death scenes, and Kojima's loose understanding of genetics?

TerraMGP:
Well if you thought it was long before then it really was not for you to begin with, but to say its bad writing, I really think thats a band wagon that many are jumping on more because he said it.

Read it again. I didn't think it was ridiculously long, I thought it was ridiculous... long before Yahtzee's review. Every bit of the MGS4 storyline seems contrived and clunky to me, and I loved the hell out of MGS1 and MGS3.

But because the *story* might be great (I don't particularly think so, but hey, different strokes)... does not mean the writing is. As Yahtzee says way back in Mass Effect review, the best sort of writing for a visual medium is "succinct and punchy."

Which MGS4 is anything but.

Hell, if you include the books, Halo's got a pretty nice story too. Not the most unique around, but at least it isn't filled with Deus Ex Machina and contrivance like MGS4. It's presented well.

Oh, and before you say "I don't want to read a book to get the story in the game," I don't want to have to watch a movie to get my story either ;)

Half-Life 2 is an excellent example of storyline presented well without interrupting gameplay one iota.

(Heck, Mass Effect review covers many of your previously made points.)

TerraMGP:
Well if you thought it was long before then it really was not for you to begin with, but to say its bad writing, I really think thats a band wagon that many are jumping on more because he said it.

I've never played a single MGS game, so take this as the Yahtzee-fanboyish statement that it is, but I don't understand how anything involving clones and characters coming back to life could be considered good writing.

Then again, it's very possible Yahtzee just played off my ignorance and exaggerated the story a bit in his review. I don't know.

So he doesn't understand genetics, The concept of a lightsaber alone is laughable at best and you don't see anyone complaining. This is why its Science fiction. As for the whole "Punchy is best" thing I wholeheartedly disagree. I think storys can be amazing without being Succinct or punchy. Thats the problem people want stories and writing that they don't have to invest anything into.

I guess my basic point is that you guys don't like the writing, that does not make it bad writing, and anyone who would buy the game should have done their homework and seen if it was something they would want anyways. They made it quite clear that this would have alot of cutscenes. Obviously it was not made for people who want punchy writing.

As for the coming back to life -spoiler- It deals with a guy whos father was a VERY powerful psychic and who inherited some of his power having an arm grafted on to replace one he got cut off. You know that whole psychic thing where you pick up on someones past or feelings because you hold an object of theirs? Its supposed to be kind of like that. Again though its Sci-fi, and a pain elemental working over several mellenia to get some office clerk to become his new Scion for some odd reason, even going so far as to set up a church for it, really isn't any less convoluted and far fetched (See the Chzo series)

TerraMGP:
So he doesn't understand genetics, The concept of a lightsaber alone is laughable at best and you don't see anyone complaining. This is why its Science fiction. As for the whole "Punchy is best" thing I wholeheartedly disagree. I think storys can be amazing without being Succinct or punchy. Thats the problem people want stories and writing that they don't have to invest anything into.

I guess my basic point is that you guys don't like the writing, that does not make it bad writing, and anyone who would buy the game should have done their homework and seen if it was something they would want anyways. They made it quite clear that this would have alot of cutscenes. Obviously it was not made for people who want punchy writing.

...Are you comparing genetics to a lightsaber? I could've sworn that, y'know, genetics was a well known scientific concept and that a lightsaber was a well known piece of fiction.

And just because you like the writing doesn't make it *good* writing, either.

I take it you disagree with The Bard, as well? "Brevity is the soul of wit."

Just because they made it clear that it would have a lot of non-interactive cutscenes (far more than any game in the series before--I loved MGS1 and MGS3 and liked MGS2, but MGS4 is 'meh' to me, so there isn't even that) *doesn't mean that it's automatically okay that they did.*

A cutscene that is an hour and fifteen (or whatever) minutes long is *not* okay.

I smell another hate-mail response video after this.

The Bandit:

...Are you comparing genetics to a lightsaber? I could've sworn that, y'know, genetics was a well known scientific concept and that a lightsaber was a well known piece of fiction.

and? lightsabers are fiction based on factual principals, as are light sabers. They are Science fiction, so are hyper drives and teleporters and all of those things. This is genetic science fiction but STILL fiction.

CantFaketheFunk:
And just because you like the writing doesn't make it *good* writing, either.

I take it you disagree with The Bard, as well? "Brevity is the soul of wit."

Just because they made it clear that it would have a lot of non-interactive cutscenes (far more than any game in the series before--I loved MGS1 and MGS3 and liked MGS2, but MGS4 is 'meh' to me, so there isn't even that) *doesn't mean that it's automatically okay that they did.*

A cutscene that is an hour and fifteen (or whatever) minutes long is *not* okay.

And just because it has alot of content does not make it bad writing. Who are you to say that cut scenes that long are not ok Hmm? I want to know why your lack of enjoyment with them makes it bad writing. Again people are complaining about 'bad' writing because the game ended up being something they would not enjoy and they should have been able to tell. It is not bad writing, its just not the standard 'punchy' spoonfed writing.

I was slightly annoyed by this review. Why would you review a game if you play it on very easy? Of corse the whole aspect of stealth was taken away, you got a gun with infinate ammo that instant tranqs people. Dear Dear. That was poor.

Well, at least it managed to make me laugh at least once. Thats more to say about his 3 previous reviews. *Sigh*

Well, the gist of hyperdrives and lightsabers is that at some point in the future technology will somehow make this possible.

No technology will ever correct the fundamentally wrong idea that you can split up recessive and dominant genes or that dominant genes are necessarily superior. That is a shamefully wrong sixth-grade interpretation of Mendelian genetics.

I really hope Yahtzee makes another Mailbag Showdown, the last one was REALLY funny.

I'm an engineer, and I will tell you now that lightsabers would require components that would make them far more dangerous, and more potent, even before the blade was put into the mix, they are fiction as of right now and the premise is flawed from a scientific standpoint. Your splitting hairs. What you are basically saying is that stories set in a more modern setting can't have fundamentally flawed tech because things have to seem like they are far enough away to be attainable before they work. I am sorry but that argument does not hold water.

TerraMGP:
I'm an engineer, and I will tell you now that lightsabers would require components that would make them far more dangerous, and more potent, even before the blade was put into the mix, they are fiction as of right now and the premise is flawed from a scientific standpoint. Your splitting hairs. What you are basically saying is that stories set in a more modern setting can't have fundamentally flawed tech because things have to seem like they are far enough away to be attainable before they work. I am sorry but that argument does not hold water.

NASA.

Ninjas.

Sure, as they are now. But who's to say that in a galaxy far far away they haven't discovered Plebotinium which specifically counteracts said dangerous potency?

Your argument (and your analogy) would hold weight if the topic in question was say, the implausibility of Metal Gear/Rex/Ray/Shagohod/Gekkos. But this isn't advanced technology, this is a fundamentally *wrong* version of Mendelian genetics--at the heart of the plot.

Pain elemental.... Behatted 'master theif' that seems a bit much like a self Idealization.... mellenia of planning to replace an arrogant druid with a copy clerk. I am sorry but I just pointed to SOME of the ludicrous sounding elements in a great series of games. Why is it so hard to accept these things can add to a story?

TerraMGP:
Why is it so hard to understand strict adherence to the norm is not always best?

For the same reason it appears to be hard for you to understand that different does not always make it better. Plus you've refused to accept any opinion that differs from your own has any merit, and generalized everyone even remotely implying that MSG4 is anything but flawless as ADD-afflicted, dense, or any number of other insults. People whose only problem was the presentation or pacing of the story are alienated in the same way as people who find the story confusing, ludicrous, or unnecessary. Your view has no room for deviation, and is really the narrow one here.

CantFaketheFunk:
Sure, as they are now. But who's to say that in a galaxy far far away they haven't discovered Plebotinium which specifically counteracts said dangerous potency?

Your argument (and your analogy) would hold weight if the topic in question was say, the implausibility of Metal Gear/Rex/Ray/Shagohod/Gekkos. But this isn't advanced technology, this is a fundamentally *wrong* version of Mendelian genetics--at the heart of the plot.

And the lightsaber violates many basic principals of magnetism and partical physics. You don't seem to understand that it CANNOT work. The light saber as defined from star wars ins IMPOSSIBLE because it violates the laws of physics just as much as metal gear violates the laws of genetics. That is my whole point. Even if you could, somehow, construct a lightsaber it would work nothing like the movies and rip apart anything around it from the magnetic field needed to hold the blade in place. It is fiction, it does not work with real physics. See?

TerraMGP:
And the lightsaber violates many basic principals of magnetism and partical physics. You don't seem to understand that it CANNOT work. The light saber as defined from star wars ins IMPOSSIBLE because it violates the laws of physics just as much as metal gear violates the laws of genetics. That is my whole point. Even if you could, somehow, construct a lightsaber it would work nothing like the movies and rip apart anything around it from the magnetic field needed to hold the blade in place. It is fiction, it does not work with real physics. See?

Star War science may have been unbelievably stupid, but we can always say that it makes sense in a weird way because it's a galaxy far away. The Star Wars universe operates differently than ours, they could have talking gerbils who command the forces of nature and Star Wars fans would consider it canon.

But you see, Metal Gear takes place on Earth in the 20th and 21st century. Among other things it gets incorrect, it totally ignores the fundamental rules of genetics. When your story takes place on Earth in present day you can't futz that much with scientific fact and have it be considered good writing.

Ok, I'm going to have to agree with TerraMGP on the topic of acceptable science deviation in a game. It is a work of fiction, and holding against it the fact that it got genetics wrong, among all the other unrealistic aspects, is just a bit nitpicky.

I'm sorry but both are fiction, and thats a cop out. Its fiction, it just SEEMS like one should be and one should not. We are talking about a theoretical 20th century where nanomachines are a governmental norm and giant mecha were black projects back in the 60s. I'm sorry but fiction is fiction and most science fiction no matter when and where it is set is inaccurate when compared to real life. That is why it is fiction.

TerraMGP:
I'm sorry but both are fiction, and thats a cop out. Its fiction, it just SEEMS like one should be and one should not. We are talking about a theoretical 20th century where nanomachines are a governmental norm and giant mecha were black projects back in the 60s. I'm sorry but fiction is fiction and most science fiction no matter when and where it is set is inaccurate when compared to real life. That is why it is fiction.

Fiction or not, it's still bad writing

Hey everyone, did you know there was a part in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake where you have to get past an electric fence that only gets turned off at night? How? It's quite simple really. You get this egg, wait for it to hatch into a full grown owl, then equip it outside the fence so that when it hoots, the guard on the other side is tricked into thinking it's night time and shuts off the fence.

How is the genetics bad writing? Disregarding the rest of the game a moment how is the flawed genetics bad writing? Science fiction is always based around various degrees of faulty scientific assumption. As for the puzzle elements in the game and such, if your complaining about them then frankly I don't understand why it any diffrent than any other game of its kind.

Wow, you are really touchy about these games. Lighten up.

another great review

mspencer82:

TerraMGP:
And the lightsaber violates many basic principals of magnetism and partical physics. You don't seem to understand that it CANNOT work. The light saber as defined from star wars ins IMPOSSIBLE because it violates the laws of physics just as much as metal gear violates the laws of genetics. That is my whole point. Even if you could, somehow, construct a lightsaber it would work nothing like the movies and rip apart anything around it from the magnetic field needed to hold the blade in place. It is fiction, it does not work with real physics. See?

Star War science may have been unbelievably stupid, but we can always say that it makes sense in a weird way because it's a galaxy far away. The Star Wars universe operates differently than ours, they could have talking gerbils who command the forces of nature and Star Wars fans would consider it canon.

But you see, Metal Gear takes place on Earth in the 20th and 21st century. Among other things it gets incorrect, it totally ignores the fundamental rules of genetics. When your story takes place on Earth in present day you can't futz that much with scientific fact and have it be considered good writing.

(please note that i have not read your previous arguments, so i gathered what i could. Please correct me if i'm wrong)

Wow, that is extremely retarted IMHO. So the MGS series is automatically irrelivant and the plot is poorly written because it takes place on Earth in an alternate 20th and 21st century and has impossible technologies and genetics because it is in an ALTERNATE Earth. But Star Wars is completely relevant and can be believed because it doesn't take place in our galaxy, and even though the physics are completely impossible (faster than light travel, light sabers, ray guns) it is apparantly better story writing than MGS (not saying SW has bad writing, they are both equal)? Personally, i had no idea what the hell was going on in the SW episodes i watched in the order of release.

Hate to break it to ya, but Video Games do this sort of alternate reality all the time. Infact, any game that is set in the future is automatically an Alternate REality game because we don't know if that certain thing could ever happen. You see this kind of thing in WWII games where the situation is "What if Germany invaded the US?" and other stuff.

just wanted to squeez that in.

Now on the topic of the review, and after reading some comments, it was a spot on review. However, the gameplay changes DRAMATICALLY when you play it on harder difficulties. Drebin Points are multiplied by decimals giving you less DP, you can only carry a significantly less amount of rations and items, you get hurt more, enemies search for you even harder, one suspicious movement and they'll be all over your ass.

I personally don't know why people think the story is so confusing. Granted, i've never played a MGS game before #4 but even then i still read a small plot synopsis and read some character backgrounds and i loved the story.

And, comeon, PMC is a freakin' Private Military Corporation! It's used in real life, not like the La Li Le Lo Lu (or whatever) If you put on subtitles they tell you what some of hte Acronyms are.

I really hope Yahtzee does a mailbag showdown like before, it would really be awesome.

But other than those points, i really liked the review. I may not agree with what Yahtzee says, but i still enjoy them every Wednsay.

Jumplion:
(please note that i have not read your previous arguments, so i gathered what i could. Please correct me if i'm wrong)

Wow, that is extremely retarted IMHO. So the MGS series is automatically irrelivant and the plot is poorly written because it takes place on Earth in an alternate 20th and 21st century and has impossible technologies and genetics because it is in an ALTERNATE Earth. But Star Wars is completely relevant and can be believed because it doesn't take place in our galaxy, and even though the physics are completely impossible (faster than light travel, light sabers, ray guns) it is apparantly better story writing than MGS (not saying SW has bad writing, they are both equal)? Personally, i had no idea what the hell was going on in the SW episodes i watched in the order of release.

I guess you missed the part where I implied that Star Wars has nonsensical plots too. Alternate Earths is one thing, the many worlds theory makes anything possible I suppose, but some of the things in Metal Gear would have to take place in Bizarro World. Vamp runs up walls, Fortune deflects bullets without the aid of technology (even the technology was stupid), I could go on all day.

The bad science was just something we got into discussing. In one of my earlier posts I cited the repetitive dialog, game-to-game retcons, and of course bad science as just a few examples of Kojima's terrible writing. There's also the face that nearly everyone has a drawn out death scene with "last words" that could fill seven pages of the script, and that's regardless of whether they stay dead or not. The only exception to the rule were the Cobras in MGS3, I think the Fury was the only one who talked a lot before his death but even that was short compared to some of the deaths in this series.

Surprisingly, I like the Metal Gear series. The gameplay is usually fun, and the plot is usually worth a few laughs.

My god, TerraMGP is still going?

TerraMGP:
Still waters run deep after all.

'Still waters run deep' - idiom meaning people who say very little often have very interesting and complicated personalities.
Would you like the definition of 'irony?'

Mspencer... well, I suppose that you are not a Marvel fan. Point is that its no more nonsenical than most science fiction in this sense. It violates genetics, well so did mutants, then they implied that the mutant gene started out created by a race of big metal space gods. Hulk got gamma radiation and now he turns into a big growling brute that seems to have theoretically limitless strength. Your saying his story is bad because its the same as EVERY other Science fiction work. Now on to things like the long 'last words' those are not bad writing they just require you to not think of them in the strict terms of 'oh well this person is dying blah blah' but rather as in the overall point he is trying to make. Think of the B&B squad a bit. Hes trying to demonstrate yet again the horrors of war and what they do to people. Frankly I hated the cobras because they deviated from this. I WANTED to know more and I know many other people did too. Its not bad writing to try and showcase microcosms, to try and give a rhyme and reason to these seemingly bizarre characters and bring them to a more human level. Its all supposed to give you a sense of the kinds of motivations and hardships people have. Thats my whole point, your looking at it with too much focus on the main story and wanting to just plow though it. You have to take this kind of game like a sunday drive, not the Indie 500

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