179: The Battleship Final Fantasy

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@Onmi:
Link please? I wanna read that. Well, I guess people hate stuff because it's popular.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitle6cd1cskka05i

It pretty much explains why people pretend to run away from the word Mainstream like it's a virus (I say pretend to run away cause I know half the fucks are off buying said games while pretending to not be, I should know cause I do the same with the artsy elitist crowd, I just act like a big enough douche and they can't tell the difference)

As for Persona 3, well anyone who DOESN'T have the time to play this wonderful game.

'My life is a god damn mess' http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/Persona3/

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@Onmi:
Link please? I wanna read that. Well, I guess people hate stuff because it's popular.

When it's original, people love it.
When people love it, it becomes popular.
When it's popular, it becomes mainstream.
When it's mainstream, it's no longer original.
When it's no longer original, people no longer love it.
When people no longer love it, it's no longer popular.

Veylon:
When it's original, people love it.
When people love it, it becomes popular.
When it's popular, it becomes mainstream.
When it's mainstream, it's no longer original.
When it's no longer original, people no longer love it.
When people no longer love it, it's no longer popular.

It's a vicious cycle. Too bad it's all so true.

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Veylon:
When it's original, people love it.
When people love it, it becomes popular.
When it's popular, it becomes mainstream.
When it's mainstream, it's no longer original.
When it's no longer original, people no longer love it.
When people no longer love it, it's no longer popular.

It's a vicious cycle. Too bad it's all so true.

This is from the Final Fantasy XII Page.

# Your Mileage May Vary (People see this as one of the best games Square has created or unworthy of being called a Final Fantasy game, especially in regards to the battle system.)

* Of course, they've said the latter about every single Final Fantasy title since VII VI IV.

Now It's 5 AM so I need sleep, night/morning my friends, my enemies, and the people who just see me as an overbearing ass

Veylon:

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@Onmi:
Link please? I wanna read that. Well, I guess people hate stuff because it's popular.

When it's original, people love it.
When people love it, it becomes popular.
When it's popular, it becomes mainstream.
When it's mainstream, it's no longer original.
When it's no longer original, people no longer love it.
When people no longer love it, it's no longer popular.

Except, of course, that can happen within the life of a single product. Witness the fact you can now find many people who will say that they never liked, for example, Portal to begin with, because it's all mainstream and popular now.

Oh yeah, the other thing I hated about XII was this. Some people call this the "Ribbon Syndrome".

I don't remember the exact details, but let me explain a bit:

The Ribbon is an accessory in FFXII (and probably other FF's as well) that renders the wearer immune to all stat ailments. In FFXII, the ribbon is placed in a chest that appears in one of the most difficult dungeons in the game. Along the way, you fight tough monsters that inflict you with stat ailments. Once you get to the room, there's a 10% chance that the chest appears, and a 10% chance (probably not the exact figures) that the chest contains the ribbon. Reload the game until lady luck smiles upon you and she decides to give it to you. But before you can even do that, you have to power-up so that you can take on the monsters.

Once you do get the Ribbon, you're probably too powerful for it to be of any use.

Onmi:

The Persona series allways have a strong cast, and in 3 and 4 you get stronger Persona by becoming friends with everyone (And subsequently hitting on all the legal girls)

It got to a weird point in The Hermit tarot with Maya the online gamer, and it turns out that she's your teacher, and has the hots for you, and doesn't know it's YOU.which led m to believe so bizarre yet kinky scenario went down, The cast being so well rounded and lovable that despite you being a silent prick (Save for saying Persona) everyone developed well including you.

There's a difference between a strong cast and a strong ensemble cast though. Persona 3, from your description, is a story about your one character and the people you meet. You are the hero, you make the big sacrifice at the end. They may be very strong and well defined characters, as are those of, say, Planescape: Torment, but Torment is undoubtedly the story primarily of The Nameless One and the characters who revolve around him.

By contrast, Wild Arms, for example, has three (and only three) characters who all have equal claim to be the "main character" of the piece, they're all critically significant to the plot, and they all succeed together. (Indeed, the way the game starts is a little unique as well, you play an intro with all three characters in any order, which ends at the point where they meet and the real plot kicks off.)

I think Marche in FFTA had the same issue (Sorta) A lot of the time he's criticized for returning the world to normal and crippling his brother. But what happened to almost everyone alive when Mewt opened the book? who's to say that he wasn't denying the existence of people by keeping the world as a fantasy.

Either choice he made he ceased the existence of a world, he is, with out a doubt in my mind a mass murderer, but a sympathetic one.

Whether you believe Marche is worse than Hitler or not depends on whether you believe that the Ivalice they are in is "real" or simply a magical fantasy provided by the book. If it's the latter, then Marche's stance (Live in the real world, even if it's a bit crappy, because it's real) is very different. He's not "ending the world" of Ivalice, he's waking everyone up from a dream.

Also, Ritz was the one with real issues. She wants to stay in Special Fantasy World because she doesn't like dyeing her hair.

This article is laughable. It sounds to me like you are just like all the gamers who feel FF has lost its touch. It's an opinion and only that, and in my opinion it is down right silly.

Everything you say would translate into FF being no where near as popular as it is now. Clearly, you have figured out something that millions of fans and nearly all professional critics have failed to see.

I am someone who has found most of the FF stories to be quite compelling, and the characters quite to be extremely interesting. Each FF successfully thrusts you into a completely new world and prepares you for an adventure that follows a proven model -- one of quality.

So please, if you think you've uncovered some sort of truth about the FF franchise, and think it's true because you can write an article that makes your opinion look important (I couldn't help but laugh at the enlarged quotation segments), you could at least leave an "IMO" in there somewhere -- so i can be sure not to waste time.

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Oh yeah, the other thing I hated about XII was this. Some people call this the "Ribbon Syndrome".

I don't remember the exact details, but let me explain a bit:

The Ribbon is an accessory in FFXII (and probably other FF's as well) that renders the wearer immune to all stat ailments. In FFXII, the ribbon is placed in a chest that appears in one of the most difficult dungeons in the game. Along the way, you fight tough monsters that inflict you with stat ailments. Once you get to the room, there's a 10% chance that the chest appears, and a 10% chance (probably not the exact figures) that the chest contains the ribbon. Reload the game until lady luck smiles upon you and she decides to give it to you. But before you can even do that, you have to power-up so that you can take on the monsters.

Once you do get the Ribbon, you're probably too powerful for it to be of any use.

All FFs give you the option to become over powered beyond challenge. It depends on what type of gamer you are.

Ray Huling:
Hi All,

Thanks for taking the time to read the article--and thanks even more for taking the time to reply.

L.B.: don't get me wrong man. I like the Saturday Morning Cartoons! I'll watch The Herculoids any old day, but it would irk me to learn that someone was investing millions to re-make The Herculoids without changing the tone and quality of the program in any way. That's what I find with FF.

ccesarono: I do mention that the Yamato was taken out by an aircraft carrier. You are right that much of what I'm talking about stems from cultural differences. I think it's easier to overcome these differences with a handheld platform, because you don't approach handheld games with the same expectations you have for full console games.

nicholasofcusa: 'hackneyed' means "trite" or "banal" or "unoriginal". I don't think there are all that many metaphors comparing videogames with naval war vessels, but I'm eager to know of other examples.

R042G: You wrote: "Square Enix is slowly turning Final Fantasy into one more myth for Japan."--yup; that's one of the key ideas in this piece.

But I will disagree with your claim that you can only make a model once: you can only make a specific kit once. I was going to extend the metaphor with my experience making multiple Yamato models, but I figured enough was enough (and besides, as nicholasofcusa will tell you, that's a hackneyed metaphor!)

As an aside, is it me or do I draw out the first-time posters?

TsunamiWombat: Yes.

camkitsune: my point is that FF dialogue hasn't grown up. It's really no more natural or sensible now than it was in 1991. There's just more of it, and it has voice actors.

Seraph: actually, FPSs are immensely different from how they were in the days of Wolfenstein. Everything is. Look at Resident Evil; look at Ninja Gaiden; look at Mario!

The big innovation of FFXII, the gambit system, is really a way to avoid the tedium of playing Final Fantasy. The amazing thing about going back to play all those old FFs is that you discover you're still using the same pattern of presses on the D-pad, over and over again. It's disturbing when you skip from game to game, as I did while writing this piece, to find yourself making precisely the same inputs from decade to decade.

When I'm taking the commuter rail, I find this sort of thing soothing, but when I have a $600 PS3 and a $2,000 TV dedicated to it, something seems mightily awry.

At any rate, thanks again everybody. I appreciate your thoughts.

Best,

Ray.

yes you did draw me out as a first time poster.

I don't think it is fair to criticize the dialogue of FF games and use it as a point to bring down the over stories,themes, and characters of the the franchise. It's translated from Japanese, and all I hear from anime buffs is, "i cant believe you watch it in english."

It doesn't take an anime buff to see this either, media from Japan has always seemed corny and poorly presented because of how hard it is to translate the language. so i dont think that point is fair, being as you're not playing them in the their original language.

i'm not saying that some of the dialogue is FFs is kind of cheesy, Japanese or not (the FFX laughing scene for example), but you draw conclusions far too strongly based on something so passable.

And you are entitled to your opinions, but saturday morning cartoons come no where close to the plots and characters of FF games, and i think that's half the reason the games are so popular.

falsealarm:

All FFs give you the option to become over powered beyond challenge. It depends on what type of gamer you are.

It's not so much the fact you can power yourself up beyond belief in FFXII (even if you do the optional boss is still a twelve million HP monster), but the fact that some of the items* were basically obtained through blind luck at astronomically long odds for absolutely no fucking reason.

* For "Some" read "all of the high end items".

Also, the Zodiac Spear, which is a pure kick in the nuts "you will never get this if you didn't buy the strategy guide" because it only appears if you didn't open three completely unmarked unidentified chests scattered all throughout the game with no rhyme, reason, or warning. If you did, well, enjoy your one in ten thousand drop chance...

Further more, many fans and critics praise FFXII as an significant improvement over its predecessor. yes the attacks and spells are identical, but the the way Square went about playing the game was masterfully done IMO. nothing felt better than seeing your gambits work, and it was a lot better than the traditional "walk, random battle, XXXXXXXXXXX, victory song"

i agree about the Zodiac Spear, the game gives no hints to even the most hardcore easter egg finders.

i did find FFXII as a challenging game though, i died on bosses quite a bit and had to do a lot of gambit adjusting. plus the sidequests were beasts.

i dont see myself as a noob here either, but that's my view on it.

Oh I'd agree that mechanically FFXII is a huge step up over it's predecessors (let's face it, it's basically Knights of the Old Republic but without having to pause every three seconds because Carth's being a moron again), it's just the wanky approach to random drops that's annoying.

I'm kind of sad to see The Escapist putting up an article like this one, and jumping on the anti-RPG propaganda bandwagon. Like it or not RPGs and more or less turn based games (active time or not) are hugely popular and sell like crazy. While Final Fantasy has had it's failures, it is overall a shining beacon of success. RPGs of all sorts, despite negative propaganda, still continue to sell rather strongly.

The reason WHY the industry tells you that RPGs are bad for the most part seems to be that developing a good RPG (turn based or not) takes a monumental amount of effort, especially compared to producing your typical action game where they can just use an existing engine like UNREAL, GRAW, or HAVOC PHYSICs (whatever version on all of them) and then add new skins and a few tweaks and call it a game. It's easy, it's cheap, and it has a sizable market to tap.

For a similar amount of effort to create a good turn based RPG, most companies could develop an MMORPG, have things respawn, and charge $15 a month for it.

Development costs also mean that when an RPG fails it's a big hit, and when it succeeds it's not as big a success as say when the latest "pew pew" game succeeds since generally speaking it cost peanuts to make comparitively and thus rakes in more pure profit.

RPGs sell, there is a market for them. Turn based games sell when done right, there is a market for them (especially for those with slowing reflexs, like the original gamers who REALLY played on things like the C-64 instead of just claiming it, especially when those gamers were adults who could afford one, as opposed to their kids). Armies of zombie-like nerds moan louder than a game of "Dead Reign" when they don't see a reasonable stream of them, this influanced the 360's new lineup (the PS-2 was kicking the technically superior X-box all around town because partly because of it's RPG line up, and the PS-2 still holds on partially because of the release of games like Persona 3 and Persona 4, as well as a huge back library of RPGs). Games like Fallout 3 despite being released a couple of months ago (a long time for games on some fronts) still reign on the message boards at places like Gamefaqs. Granted Fallout 3 IS a real time game, but it also include turn based elements via the brilliant VATS system that are integral to game play.

The bottom line is that I don't think Final Fantasy is akin to a Battleship. It's apparent sales, popularity, and success show otherwise. All of the screaming about how this is wrong is more or less spitting in the wind.

While it might be one of the rare failures, it seems like a virtual Guarantee that not only with Final Fantasy XIII sell well, but it is also likely to reign in actual user ratings and forum popularity/usage for months over games that are liked better by the anti-RPG crowd. Even if this round kind of fizzles (like say Final Fantasy X-2, which didn't go over as well as many others) it's virtually guaranteed that they will be on top with a formula that works (so why change it?) yet again.

I guess a better analogy would be sort of like that old movie where Final Fantasy is an aircraft carrier transported back in time, dominating all of the other ships in the ocean, despite their belief in technical superiority. Modern jets blowing Japanese Zeros out of the air like slow floating balloons, etc...

Not a perfect analogy (since games like Madden still seem to sell better, and gawd look at the criticism of those), and everyone including RPG fans like me (who are the worst internal critics of the genere) sees a lot of problems with Final Fantasy... but in the end result the Final Fantasy series is the game others aspire to be. Not an obselete "Battleship" at the end of WW II. It has achieved an almost Zen-like perfection that sees little need for change in the formula. A formula like this is something few other games have been able to accomplish within their genere, or even elevate their genere to.

RPGs forever!

(and yes, I do prefer Western RPGs, but that is another arguement out of context here)

>>>----Therumancer--->

The battleship was obsolete because it didn't prove effective and lost. Final Fantaasy is constantly being improved to win -- and it wins every time.

Ray wrote:

> Final Fantasy has never produced a good or even coherent plot, a compelling
> character, a line of believable dialogue or a scene worthy of anything but a
> Saturday morning cartoon.

Not at all.

Final Fantasy has produced tremendous narratives, and those narratives are the reason people have such love for the series. Some are better than others, but the great ones are true works of art. I don't say this lightly - my job is analyzing media narratives 24-7 (film, TV, videogames).

If your vision of a role-playing game is a management simulation of balancing attacks and defenses, that's fine, and there are plenty of games which provide this. But the FF series has its own unique logic, takes narrative risks no other series has done, and has produced some truly great works of story-telling art. (I could write paragraphs about Final Fantasy 12 alone, one of the great epics of the 21st century).

Onmi:

You need to just shut up and expand your JRPG Libraries, what you have said has already been done before. (Sonic Chronicles for one)

On the other hand I would rather spend 100 dollars on a game I play for 70 hours, than for one I play for 6.

I haven't played sonic chronicles so i can't comment, but note that I am a fan of JRPGS. It's just most all of them have severe pacing issues that mostly result from the need to provide alot of game length. WRPGS have this problem too. A lot of the game feels like filler. RPGS are not the only genre that can can succumb to this(GTA4), but it is by far the most common one to. I have fond memories of FFX but wen I went to replay to relive those memories, I found myself wishing I could just replay a greatest hits version of the game.

dredmond79:

Final Fantasy has produced tremendous narratives, and those narratives are the reason people have such love for the series.

Could you give an example of a scene, a line of dialogue, or a plot from any Final Fantasy that lives up to the qualification 'tremendous'?

falsealarm:
[quote="Ray Huling" post="6.79546.1020818"]It doesn't take an anime buff to see this either, media from Japan has always seemed corny and poorly presented because of how hard it is to translate the language. so i dont think that point is fair, being as you're not playing them in the their original language.

I'm not learning Japanese to tone down the corn in a Final Fantasy game. That's one point.

Another is: I've read Haruki Murakami and Yukio Mishima and Ryu Murakami in English. They are not corny; their narratives make sense; the art of their work comes through, even in translation.

I'm going to go ahead and deny the argument from the Anime aficionado.

Ray Huling:

dredmond79:

Final Fantasy has produced tremendous narratives, and those narratives are the reason people have such love for the series.

Could you give an example of a scene, a line of dialogue, or a plot from any Final Fantasy that lives up to the qualification 'tremendous'?

Isn't this all based on opinion Ray? How compelling someone finds a narrative largely depends on who that person is. Final Fantasy's narratives have always gotten critical acclaim and have shown immense popularity (you dont have forums full of fanboys talking about the latest episode of the animated Mighty Ducks).

By saying FF is comparable to a saturday morning cartoon, you are insulting intelligence and maturity of the audience that does find the stories "tremendous."

Look at the original Star Wars movies. Melodramatic? Sure. Corny dialogue. It's there. Loop holes and silly concepts. Yup. Yet it still manage to express powerful themes through its memorable characters and plot line.

You want him to list a quality scene from FF? So what? You can shoot him down with more of your opinions?

Ray Huling:

Another is: I've read Haruki Murakami and Yukio Mishima and Ryu Murakami in English. They are not corny; their narratives make sense; the art of their work comes through, even in translation.

This assumes the quality of translation is equal.

Print novels tend to get translated a lot better than other media, because there are no timing constraints. A scene in a videogame has a fixed length, and dialogue has to be matched to the rest of the on-screen action so that the right things get said at the right times. (either by real timing, as in modern games, or the far stricter limit of having an extremely limited memory space to allocate to characters that existed back on cartridge based systems.) Print novels don't have those limitations, and so the only thing that the translator has to worry about is preserving the authorial voice and intent.

You're also neglecting the cultural aspects of translation. Let's look at your ego-buffing novelists. It's not beyond the pale for me to say that you do not understand the novels of Haruki Murakami the same way a Japanese person does, because he explores themes which are only relevant to people who grew up in and live in Japan and the culture of Japanese life, which whilst you may know about it on an intellectual level, you will not understand in the same way as someone who lives it and understands it on an intuitive personal level.

That's going to extend to Final Fantasy, which has a tendency to present stories which tend to revolve around coming of age and the end of adolescence, which means different things in different cultures. Final Fantasy VII, for instance, is mostly about search for and meaning of identity. That's not so significant a part of emerging adulthood in the west, where individuality is emphasised anyway, but for a product of the Japanese educational system, which is all competitive examination and with little room for individuality and working life as a component in a corporate environment it's going to mean something different.

You don't really address the quality of the storylines though, you manage to excoriate them without having particularly considered them, or at least let that consideration seep into your article.

I some times end up writing long- winded, pompous texts that eventually miss the point, too, so you have my sympathy, Ray. But when did anyone play FF games for the challenging and varied control- scheme? Really, what's next - will the Escapist have an editorial dissing the repetitiveness of playing "catch"? Perhaps an exposť on the obsolete and outdated form Football is still, regrettably, played in - while declarinig the next World Cup an overrated flop? And what about the dullness and passť presentations called "books"? Oh, how boring - we've seen it all before, and will be disappointed if nothing new shows up!

*shakes head*

I enjoy the stupidly complex plots, they're the only reason I play Final Fantasy games. Perhaps you're just upset because you played FF XII for 200 hours to get everything just to find you wasted all your time?

I gave up trying to find everything in those games long ago and I just enjoy the main story and any subquests that look interesting.

Flunk:
I enjoy the stupidly complex plots.

And here's another thing, building on this for a moment. The reason why an RPG of significant length may well benefit from having a plot like an alpine road is this: Videogame plots are based on player discovery. The active involvement of directing your avatar around the world talking to it's inhabitants is what provides the meat on the bones of the story. That means that each new turn the plot takes is something "discovered" by the player, even if it's a scripted one, because it's up to the player to reach the point of plot advancement on their own terms. Whether they rush there doing the critical path or stop to talk to everyone and poke into corners along the way, they have found that plot revelation "for themselves" because their experience of the game so far has been subtly varied. There's more of a sense of discovery in a videogame plot twist, because the player has a sense of agency as a part of the game.

Of course, there is a limit to how often this works, and it does rely on player presence (Xenogears, for instance, gets it all horribly wrong, it's not that it's plot is slightly more convoluted than a plate of spaghetti, but that the plot is mostly revealed by exposition from one or more Omniscient Council of Vagueness, not to the player by their actions).

GloatingSwine:
This assumes the quality of translation is equal.

No; I'm just pointing out that the fact of translation in itself isn't enough to justify suspending judgment on the dialogue of FF.

GloatingSwine:
You're also neglecting the cultural aspects of translation.

Not really. It's true that FF is the way it is in part because it works within the bounds of Japanese culture. That's why so much space in these games is taken up by the angst of a boy who can't tell a girl he likes her.

But there's no reason to suspend judgment for cultural reasons, either. Japanese people don't love FF as a matter of course. FF is sold to Westerners; this leaves the series open to Western judgment. This is especially true because FF games are so heavily derivative of Western sci-fi and fantasy. Or do you think the Japanese have a clear understanding of Dungeons & Dragons and the novels of William Gibson?

GloatingSwine:
You don't really address the quality of the storylines though, you manage to excoriate them without having particularly considered them, or at least let that consideration seep into your article.

I'm not going to address twelve, thirteen storylines in an 1,800-word piece. I took the plot of FFIV as an exemplar and examined it at some length. It stinks. If you've got access to top-secret linguistic and cultural information that reveals the true depth and nuance of the game, I'd love to hear it.

falsealarm:
By saying FF is comparable to a saturday morning cartoon, you are insulting intelligence and maturity of the audience that does find the stories "tremendous."

Why? Don't you like Jonny Quest? G.I. Joe? Shmoo?

It's not simply a matter of disparaging Final Fantasy; it's a matter of assessing it correctly. The Final Fantasy games belong in a category that includes works like the ones I mentioned above. There is no scene in a Final Fantasy game more harrowing than the Invisible Monster Episode of Jonny Quest, no relationship more moving than the one between Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes, no moogle more adorable than the Shmoo.

I'm just saying that it's important to keep in mind what kind of material we're talking about here.

Ray Huling:

GloatingSwine:
This assumes the quality of translation is equal.

No; I'm just pointing out that the fact of translation in itself isn't enough to justify suspending judgment on the dialogue of FF.

GloatingSwine:
You're also neglecting the cultural aspects of translation.

Not really. It's true that FF is the way it is in part because it works within the bounds of Japanese culture. That's why so much space in these games is taken up by the angst of a boy who can't tell a girl he likes her.

But there's no reason to suspend judgment for cultural reasons, either. Japanese people don't love FF as a matter of course. FF is sold to Westerners; this leaves the series open to Western judgment. This is especially true because FF games are so heavily derivative of Western sci-fi and fantasy. Or do you think the Japanese have a clear understanding of Dungeons & Dragons and the novels of William Gibson?

GloatingSwine:
You don't really address the quality of the storylines though, you manage to excoriate them without having particularly considered them, or at least let that consideration seep into your article.

I'm not going to address twelve, thirteen storylines in an 1,800-word piece. I took the plot of FFIV as an exemplar and examined it at some length. It stinks. If you've got access to top-secret linguistic and cultural information that reveals the true depth and nuance of the game, I'd love to hear it.

Ray Huling:

falsealarm:
By saying FF is comparable to a saturday morning cartoon, you are insulting intelligence and maturity of the audience that does find the stories "tremendous."

Why? Don't you like Jonny Quest? G.I. Joe? Shmoo?

It's not simply a matter of disparaging Final Fantasy; it's a matter of assessing it correctly. The Final Fantasy games belong in a category that includes works like the ones I mentioned above. There is no scene in a Final Fantasy game more harrowing than the Invisible Monster Episode of Jonny Quest, no relationship more moving than the one between Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes, no moogle more adorable than the Shmoo.

I'm just saying that it's important to keep in mind what kind of material we're talking about here.

Well in that case then yes Final Fantasy is heavily based in science fiction and fantasy. Fireballs, summons, crazy hair, crazy villains and a gunblade? Come on.

However (and you ignored it), the Star Wars analogy works here. Glowing light stick swords, a group of rebels taking on a bunch of identical dumb enemy guards who's lasers fly around the main characters as if surrounded by some sort of invisible shield. The cartoon silliness is all there, but Star Wars still earns the critical acclaim it has received.

And you may disagree, and you don't have to agree that Star Wars conveys a compelling story, or that its characters are memorable. Silliness aside, it's what people get out of a movie, a book, or a video game that makes it count.

The problem however, is that you do not disagree graciously. You say FF [insert number here]'s story line was awful. You gave reasons why you found them terrible, and it's clear some people disagree with you strongly on that. Yet you don't even respect their words, you merely say, "prove it." What are we supposed to do?

That's the problem I have here. I respect your opinions, but not when you present them as facts and shoot everyone down who tries to point that out.

Oh and sir, please provide us with the literary analysis you found regarding how terrible Final Fantasy's narratives are -- because everything you said came from you own head.

Ray Huling:

I'm not going to address twelve, thirteen storylines in an 1,800-word piece. I took the plot of FFIV as an exemplar and examined it at some length. It stinks. If you've got access to top-secret linguistic and cultural information that reveals the true depth and nuance of the game, I'd love to hear it.

Final Fantasy IV couldn't afford much depth. For much the same reason that your piece could not examine twelve different plots. Space.

Remember, Final Fantasy IV's plot was written at a time and on a format where every single letter was a noticable impact on the memory space available to the game. And whilst you were playing the DS version, you should also remember that the plot hasn't changed from the SNES version, because if it had it would no longer be Final Fantasy IV, and the attraction of a remake would be lost. Not much room for nuance when you've got a maximum of ten or twenty words to deliver the next piece of information, and you have to get the gameplay facts across so you don't frustrate a player with random wandering because your signposting is rubbish.

Also, I would say you are assessing Final Fantasy wrongly by comparing it with saturday morning cartoons, and are not making the case for doing so strongly, merely stating it as "just so". It's teenage/young adult fiction, and uses the themes of that fiction, personal growth, identity, responsibility to others, and coming of age have been at the core of Final Fantasy's stories since they got stories back in Final Fantasy II.

falsealarm:
Oh and sir, please provide us with the literary analysis you found regarding how terrible Final Fantasy's narratives are -- because everything you said came from you own head.

More like, prove to us a genre or game series that does not suffer from the same "problems" he states.

"Final Fantasy today offers the exact same rewards as Final Fantasy yesterday, only it takes more effort to get them."

This statement, the entire premise of this article, couldn't be more wrong. Go back and play FF1 and then tell me it's just as 'rewarding' as FFX. It makes me wonder if the author has even played any final fantasy games. It's like me (I have never played a Madden game) saying the original Madden from 1992 or whenever and Madden 08 are pretty much the same; I mean they're both just football right? That's the same reward right there. No point in playing or making any new football games. They're obsolete. Just forget it. Make 'em handheld and be done with it.

What a moron.

-Seraph-:

falsealarm:
Oh and sir, please provide us with the literary analysis you found regarding how terrible Final Fantasy's narratives are -- because everything you said came from you own head.

More like, prove to us a genre or game series that does not suffer from the same "problems" he states.

It's popular to show disregard for extremely popular and critically acclaimed things, not just video games.

Grampy_bone:
"Final Fantasy today offers the exact same rewards as Final Fantasy yesterday, only it takes more effort to get them."

This statement, the entire premise of this article, couldn't be more wrong. Go back and play FF1 and then tell me it's just as 'rewarding' as FFX. It makes me wonder if the author has even played any final fantasy games. It's like me (I have never played a Madden game) saying the original Madden from 1992 or whenever and Madden 08 are pretty much the same; I mean they're both just football right? That's the same reward right there. No point in playing or making any new football games. They're obsolete. Just forget it. Make 'em handheld and be done with it.

What a moron.

He can't be a moron, he has his own article.

Ray Huling:

falsealarm:
By saying FF is comparable to a saturday morning cartoon, you are insulting intelligence and maturity of the audience that does find the stories "tremendous."

Why? Don't you like Jonny Quest? G.I. Joe? Shmoo?

It's not simply a matter of disparaging Final Fantasy; it's a matter of assessing it correctly. The Final Fantasy games belong in a category that includes works like the ones I mentioned above. There is no scene in a Final Fantasy game more harrowing than the Invisible Monster Episode of Jonny Quest, no relationship more moving than the one between Storm Shadow and Snake Eyes, no moogle more adorable than the Shmoo.

I'm just saying that it's important to keep in mind what kind of material we're talking about here.

Okay the Crowning Moments of Heartwarming

The Crowning Moments of Awesome

It's a long one so take the LINK http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/CrowningMoment/FinalFantasy

Tear Jerkers

People are probably wondering what the point of listing all those here.

Well those were actual scenes that affected actual people, you can talk all you want about how you THINK something emotionally effects someone, but these are personal accounts and feelings here, and you can't disregard them, if it was poorly written then people wouldn't have these.

I hope you were utilising that laborious Yamato metaphor time and time again to represent the FF series and the way it too has been rehashing old ground. Because otherwise it became forced and unnecessary!

Anyway, I don't think FF necessarily needs to head in the direction of handhelds, but your criticism is mostly correct. The dialogue, rather than improving, has become worse, due to it being voice acted. In the text games, we read it in our heads, gave each sentence its own subtle nuances and cut out the badly translated or badly written, which did create sympathy with the characters. (Yes, I did sympathise with the characters! I think the characterisation and story of some FF games is superior to most other games, films or drama.)

The westernisation of recent FF games has taken away all of its original artistic charm. FFXII was literally just Star Wars. And I hate Star Wars. All in all, it needs to become subtle again.

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