How to Talk About Games #3

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RipVanTinkle:
Colossal Douche-Titan?

Has someone been watching Attack on Titan lately? :P

image

Darn, you beat me to it. Still, my thoughts exactly.

OT: Lol I loved the picture of Erin sniffing cocaine on the cat. What the crap, I don't even XD super cute though.
Also aahhhhh... That holocaust picture, the feels I got when seeing that.

Then the last picture... Priceless. Loved this comic overall!!

Tahaneira:
Not bad. However. I disagree on one small point. there is one opinion which is almost never wrong: whether or not I enjoyed the game. Oh sure, the details why fall under this, but I can't wait to see people try to belittle my enjoyment using this.

I have to agree with this. It's always a good thing to be able to approach discussion and debate like a mature adult, but it's also very important to keep in mind that not everything is put forward as a discussion or debate. Particularly on forums like the one here at The Escapist, it seems like any stated opinion is viewed as an invitation to argue and debate something. Sometimes people don't know, or don't care, why they enjoy a particular experience, they just do. It's just "fun" or "enjoyable" to them and that's perfectly fine.

Grahav:
I am having a hard time learning the lesson because I am laughing too much.

Specially with the coke cats.

Also, I still don't know if Carter hates Evangelion or is just self depreciating.

TopazFusion:
Why is the game fun? Because it features cats snorting cocaine, that's why!

It's not cocaine. It's cat nip.
<.<

>.>

Evil Smurf:
But the last panel is how I talk to women.

That why you haven't been in the Lady Bit's chat for a while? ;D

TheBelgianGuy:
Remember when Critical Miss was about funny comics, not sounding condescending and elitist all the time? Yeah.

:/ Remember when people were enjoying this comic?
*Looks around at the comments*

:D Oh wait. That's still going on. In fact, it happened to me just a bit ago.

:) Well dang.

Yopaz:
Now here's for my opinion. Tales of Xillia is the game I have been anticipating the most this year. Now this is clearly my opinion, but I am aware of that. It's not a fact, I won't treat it as an objective fact. Is it wrong simply because the majority of the world does not share my opinion?

Firstly: "Xillia is a game I have been anticipating all year" is clearly a fact- because it applies only to you, and barring mental illness or other significant factors that call into question your ability to be the arbiter of your own taste, you are clearly the ultimate judge of what you like.

Something like "Tales of Xillia is going to be a great game like all the other Tales games" is more of an opinion. If you keep it to yourself, and it informs only your decisions, and you're pleased with the resulting purchases, it's certainly not wrong from your viewpoint.

When one makes that opinion public (save, perhaps, to a group of Tales of Xillia fans who can all be reasonably expected to support one another's love of the franchise), one should be willing and able to defend it. Offering such an opinion to others presupposes that it has a merit that can stand up to scrutiny, that it is capable and deserving of altering other people's viewpoints.

Saying, defensively, of one's own opinion "Well, it's just an opinion!" begs the question why the person chose to offer it in the first place. Saying "It's just your opinion" effectively assumes that "grass is pretty" ranks alongside all other works of criticism without any further consideration of merit.

So....last panel. When you draw this, is the original image anatomically correct and then pixellated? Or do you simply color the area appropriately? Bottom line, was a penis actually drawn?

The PenIs Mightier! (Adjust spacing if necessary.)

Father Time:
I don't get the last bit. So you're saying that a subjective opinion can be wrong? That sounds like one of those 'people' who says "I can objectively prove that this game/band/movie is bad". No you can't.

Kinda sorta. Opinions can't be "wrong" insofar as it's your personal take on something and no one can tell you how to think.

However, that doesn't mean that what you think can't be wrong. Maybe you reached your conclusion from a flawed understanding, or maybe you convinced yourself of certain things, or any of a thousand other things that would each invalidate your opinion if yo were made aware of it.

Hell, if you've ever changed your mind about how you feel about something, you have held a wrong opinion.

That said, that wasn't really the point of the comic. The point of those last two panels was less "opinions aren't inviolate" and more "If you retreat from an argument with the statement of 'that's just, like, your opinion, man', you may as well just start masturbating furiously, because that's all you're really doing anyway."

I was arguing with someone because of that last point, they insisted that their way of thinking a game is good is the only way, it was too pathetic to continue; it was almost as sad as when I was talking to someone and they felt there was a right way to play minecraft. Just let the scwableers scwable while the rest of us advances.

I really enjoyed these series of comics, and I actually recognize times in the past where I did praise the challenge of a videogame without giving support as to why it is challenging. I am not a reviewer by any means, but I think a lot of these points made would make me a more educated discusser on videogames and the medium as a whole. I do also see the point in that complexity dos not always equal more depth. I think the analogy they made with flying a plane makes sense, as whether you can do it with ease or not, you are still merely flying. I think back to some military based strategy games, and other RTS games, where the controls are something really difficult to master. However, some of these games are not that much more deep than a game that has simple controls. Most are simply won by having better strategy than the AI or your real person opponent, and do not hold that much deep story or meaning.

I think the most interesting point that was brought up was how to accept differing opinions, and conflicting views of the game. I really liked the point of how games are not made for every audience. I know this heavily for movies and comic books. I would not suspect all of my friends to like my Punisher MAX comics, as I do not really see the appeal Flash comics. They are made for different audiences. I do not see the appeal of slasher flicks, or Hello Kitty, but then those things are made for very different groups of people than what I am into. Also, you can like a game without liking everything about the game. I think the combat and boss fights of Deus Ex: HR were awful because of how out of place they were with the rest of the game and how the game seemed to be geared more towards stealth and exploration than combat, but I thought the stealth, exploration, and timing required for the rest of the game was excellently done and that is enough for me to like the game.

Basically, I just really liked these series of comics.

On the last point, the guy is right. Media exists to entertain in some respect, to be engaging and interesting and, yes, "fun". What exactly people find to be enjoyable varies vastly from person to person, and there is absolutely no objective measure of whether or not something is good. No matter how well you argue your point, you cannot convince someone that they didn't, or shouldn't have, enjoyed something they enjoyed. If you point out flaws that didn't bother other people, you are pointing out things that had almost no effect whatsoever.

Lonewolfm16:
you cannot convince someone that they didn't, or shouldn't have, enjoyed something they enjoyed.

That's (mostly) correct. That's also not what these comics have been advocating.

Callate:

Yopaz:
Now here's for my opinion. Tales of Xillia is the game I have been anticipating the most this year. Now this is clearly my opinion, but I am aware of that. It's not a fact, I won't treat it as an objective fact. Is it wrong simply because the majority of the world does not share my opinion?

Firstly: "Xillia is a game I have been anticipating all year" is clearly a fact- because it applies only to you, and barring mental illness or other significant factors that call into question your ability to be the arbiter of your own taste, you are clearly the ultimate judge of what you like.

Something like "Tales of Xillia is going to be a great game like all the other Tales games" is more of an opinion. If you keep it to yourself, and it informs only your decisions, and you're pleased with the resulting purchases, it's certainly not wrong from your viewpoint.

When one makes that opinion public (save, perhaps, to a group of Tales of Xillia fans who can all be reasonably expected to support one another's love of the franchise), one should be willing and able to defend it. Offering such an opinion to others presupposes that it has a merit that can stand up to scrutiny, that it is capable and deserving of altering other people's viewpoints.

Saying, defensively, of one's own opinion "Well, it's just an opinion!" begs the question why the person chose to offer it in the first place. Saying "It's just your opinion" effectively assumes that "grass is pretty" ranks alongside all other works of criticism without any further consideration of merit.

I think we're on the same page here more or less.

If I say that Tales of Xillia is my favourite game then the sentence would make it clear that I am presenting my opinion and while I could probably give some reasons why that doesn't really matter. If I am to say that it's a great game then I agree that I would need to be able to present a reason other than "it's my opinion". Because I agree that it would be frustrating to go down the line
"This game is so good"
"Why?"
"lol my opinion"

Opinions shouldn't be presented as facts nor be the thing we use when we defend games. If that was the point you were trying to make I agree completely with you.

Writer 1: Hi I notice that a lot of gamers are presenting opinions as fact in game discussion, as well a generally putting across a bad presentation of themselves
Writer 2: We should do something about that
Writer 1: I agree but the difference between fact and opinion is very hard to define, especially when taking about entreatment. It would be very complex and wordy
Writer 2: no need to worry we'll just present our incredibly simplified opinions as facts and fill it with drawings ridiculing anyone how disagrees
Writer 1: Genius

I still say opinions can be wrong.

burningdragoon:

Lonewolfm16:
you cannot convince someone that they didn't, or shouldn't have, enjoyed something they enjoyed.

That's (mostly) correct. That's also not what these comics have been advocating.

Arguing over whether a game is good or not just seems a little silly. If I played it and did/didn't enjoy it, there is my answer of whether or not it was good.

Lonewolfm16:

Arguing over whether a game is good...

... is not the aim of the comics. (Don't be fooled by the use of the word "argument" from a previous entry. Swap it for "reason" if you're having trouble)

If I played it and did/didn't enjoy it, there is my answer of whether or not it was good.

That would lead to some pretty dull discussion/conversation if that's all you want to say about it.

That was a lot of conclusions without arguments. I think thats fine by the way, especially considering the medium.

I intend to make "as fun as snorting coke off a giggling kitten's belly" into a part of my daily conversation from now on.

Rakschas:
dear lord, this "#how to talk about games" series is so awesome, please continue!

Back up your argument, or it doesn't count!

/sarcasm

Likewise, "Fun" can be limiting in its own way. We essentially use it synonymously with "entertaining" or "engaging," but the word caries some negative connotations. It implies the experience is shallow and lacking in intellecutual fulfillment.

I disagree with this. It implies that only if the person saying it primarily experiences fun in a shallow and intellectually deficient way. Because this is not something you may know due to the medium of the internet, that's where confusion may come in.

LetalisK:

Likewise, "Fun" can be limiting in its own way. We essentially use it synonymously with "entertaining" or "engaging," but the word caries some negative connotations. It implies the experience is shallow and lacking in intellecutual fulfillment.

I disagree with this. It implies that only if the person saying it primarily experiences fun in a shallow and intellectually deficient way. Because this is not something you may know due to the medium of the internet, that's where confusion may come in.

I may be completely overanalyzing it, but I have that sneaking suspicion that it's deliberate.

Use the word if you want, but don't demand all games subscribe to your one definition of it.

And in the same context using only a single definition of 'fun'.

The last part seems even more obvious. Paraphrased because I'm not good at making ascii drawings:

Never state your opinion without an argument. Because If you do that I think it's equivalent of pulling down your pants in public.

Notice the lack of an argument in the last picture?

Theres also the part where complexity does not equal depth. With a picture of complexity resulting in a plane crashing into the deep ocean.

The reason I have the feeling that I may be overanalyzing is because the page seems a little inconsistent, sometimes it seems serious and sometimes not. But it may be because there are details I missed.

Bostur:

The last part seems even more obvious. Paraphrased because I'm not good at making ascii drawings:

Never state your opinion without an argument. Because If you do that I think it's equivalent of pulling down your pants in public.

Notice the lack of an argument in the last picture?

I thought the picture was more about people being pompous about their opinions rather than saying you can't state an opinion without providing an argument(which I'd disagree with too).

WouldYouKindly:

Grahav:
I am having a hard time learning the lesson because I am laughing too much.

Specially with the coke cats.

Also, I still don't know if Carter hates Evangelion or is just self depreciating.

Baiting Eva fanboys has become a tradition. Which is fine. It's an important anime in the development of the medium, but it's far from flawless. People who can't accept criticism of what they like deserve to be baited as much as possible.

I wonder when he'll switch targets to another anime series, and how harsh the ensuing shitstorm will be.

While of course saying one audience is better than another is not the right way to go, I think saying one audience is irrelevant accomplishes the same goal and is actually a valid point.

Some audiences' views on things they have no interest or relevance to SHOULD carry less weight. Yes the baby doesn't matter when it comes to tasting beer but weather or not a baby likes a type of beer has absolutely no baring on the beer being good or bad at the same time. The baby's not "lesser" just "irrelevant".

You may say that defining audiences as irrelevant is a way of alienating people or shutting the doors of the clubhouse but if you're actually correct, you're merely agreeing with THEIR choice to be irrelevant in the first place. If someone comes up and decides to participate then deeming them irrelevant is of course counter-productive but someone who clearly has no interest in ever having an interest in games isn't someone best suited to opining about them.

"I never had a pizza but I think this pizza is good" is a useless comment. It should carry no weight and if you use it to design pizzas you'd be equally as likely in succeeding as someone who rolled dice to decide what to put on one.

One point of criticism on the comic itself: choosing a guy dressed as a Nazi soldier to run the "Holocaust Memorial Roller-Coaster" wouldn't be the choice I'd go with. Instead, I have the ride attendant look like an emaciated deathcamp survivor.

I very muched agree with the 'it might not be your thing' section. Their's alot to be said about looking at something and saying 'eh, not for me.'

Imp Emissary:
That why you haven't been in the Lady Bit's chat for a while? ;D

Do you know the trouble I need to go to, to post dick pics?

The air plane panels were absolutely fantastic. XD

Mahoshonen:
One point of criticism on the comic itself: choosing a guy dressed as a Nazi soldier to run the "Holocaust Memorial Roller-Coaster" wouldn't be the choice I'd go with. Instead, I have the ride attendant look like an emaciated deathcamp survivor.

In my original panel description it was like a haunted house ride, with skeletons popping out of ovens. We decided against that one.

Father Time:

IceForce:

Father Time:
So you're saying that a subjective opinion can be wrong?

Of course it can be wrong.

Hitler's opinion of the Jews was wrong, for instance. (Yes I did just drop a Godwin's Law bomb on this thread.)

That's totally relevant when talking games.

Although not everything Hitler said about Jews was a matter of opinion.

Depends what you mean by opinion. I don't like the subjective/objective divide but I suppose we have to use it here.

Objective opinion: Jews are causing the downfall of the German nation.

Can that be wrong? Yes, of course.

Subjective opinion: I don't like Jews.

How can that be wrong?

Blood Brain Barrier:

Father Time:

IceForce:
Of course it can be wrong.

Hitler's opinion of the Jews was wrong, for instance. (Yes I did just drop a Godwin's Law bomb on this thread.)

That's totally relevant when talking games.

Although not everything Hitler said about Jews was a matter of opinion.

Depends what you mean by opinion. I don't like the subjective/objective divide but I suppose we have to use it here.

Objective opinion: Jews are causing the downfall of the German nation.

Can that be wrong? Yes, of course.

Subjective opinion: I don't like Jews.

How can that be wrong?

Also subjective 'Jews are evil'.

Whether or not they eat babies, practice witchcraft or whatever is objective but evil is subjective.

Grey Carter:

Mahoshonen:
One point of criticism on the comic itself: choosing a guy dressed as a Nazi soldier to run the "Holocaust Memorial Roller-Coaster" wouldn't be the choice I'd go with. Instead, I have the ride attendant look like an emaciated deathcamp survivor.

In my original panel description it was like a haunted house ride, with skeletons popping out of ovens. We decided against that one.

Dammit, Grey! I'm going to hell for laughing now! D:

lacktheknack:

Grey Carter:

Mahoshonen:
One point of criticism on the comic itself: choosing a guy dressed as a Nazi soldier to run the "Holocaust Memorial Roller-Coaster" wouldn't be the choice I'd go with. Instead, I have the ride attendant look like an emaciated deathcamp survivor.

In my original panel description it was like a haunted house ride, with skeletons popping out of ovens. We decided against that one.

Dammit, Grey! I'm going to hell for laughing now!

I'll see you there, man.

I've gotta disagree on the connotations of the word "fun." It implies something is enjoyable, period. It doesn't imply depth or intelligence, but it certainly doesn't imply a lack of them either. It simply denotes enjoyment. Other than that nitpick, great series, guys. Well thought-out, well-presented.

Also:

Erin snorting coke off of a cat's stomach is now going to be my avatar for all of the forums. All of them.

lacktheknack:

Grey Carter:

Mahoshonen:
One point of criticism on the comic itself: choosing a guy dressed as a Nazi soldier to run the "Holocaust Memorial Roller-Coaster" wouldn't be the choice I'd go with. Instead, I have the ride attendant look like an emaciated deathcamp survivor.

In my original panel description it was like a haunted house ride, with skeletons popping out of ovens. We decided against that one.

Dammit, Grey! I'm going to hell for laughing now! D:

...I didn't get it...are we still talking about Nazis or something other horrific event?

xaszatm:

lacktheknack:

Grey Carter:

In my original panel description it was like a haunted house ride, with skeletons popping out of ovens. We decided against that one.

Dammit, Grey! I'm going to hell for laughing now! D:

...I didn't get it...are we still talking about Nazis or something other horrific event?

I'll let a brilliant game explain it for me...

image

No other game has had the balls to treat the Holocaust so frankly as "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream".

Didn't stop me from laughing at the words "skeletons popping out of ovens", though. D:

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