The Big Picture: In Defense of "Booth Babes" (sort of)

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To summarise, hate the concept of booth babes, not the actual people themselves. Seems reasonable.

Why would you hate job of attracting customers? If you accept comercials, at least pretty female body is pleasant to look at.

JimB:
Nevertheless, that is my understanding of your position, since you clearly said that "ruining" a video game (whatever that even means) should cause a person to expect repercussions against herself and her family; and you said that in the context of acting as if death threats are appropriate repercussions. If I have misunderstood you, then I invite you to demonstrate where and how your stance differs from what I have described.

I said that if you ruin several video games (or are perceived as having ruined several games) you can expect harsh criticism. Especially if you deny that your stories have any problems and call the gamers "entitled" for pointing out the problems in this story. I never said it was justified, that was something you made up to make me look bad.

Serious look thorough my posts and you'll see that I never said these threats were justified. I just said that people were making these threats because they were annoyed with Hepler's opinions on interactivity in gaming, and what she was doing to the story and characters of the games she worked on. It seems that too many people on these boards consider anyone who doesn't condemn anything they hate often enough to be a supporter of this.

Don't have a problem with the models male or female. Don't care if you are fake or not. I'd be more interested in why you spend money on crap like COD or Splinter cell or the new revamped going to suck hard God/Gears of war or other lack luster AAA titles. That is if applicable if not its fine. Then again me going outside and talking to people probably wont happen anytime soon. LOL

uanime5:
Mostly the fact that all characters are bisexuals with a high sex drive, so you can instantly begin a sexual relationship without having to develop it in any way.

Surprise! Some people are bisexual (you could apply the title to everyone if you operated under certain theories) and people tend to like having sex with the person they're attracted to. A Hawke that acts a certain way to them, likely looks pretty attractive, and goes around being the most powerful thing in the city will probably be able to gain a significant number of admirers.

Seriously in Mass Effect 3 you just have to click the friendly icon in few dialogue boxes to become someone's lover. You never have to worry about a character being in another relationship, not being ready for a relationship, needing to develop this relationship in any way, or being refused because a character isn't gay.

Well she didn't work on Mass Effect 3 so you can't really put that on her in any way. And you never have to worry about any love interest ever being in another relationship. And whining about how there are too many gays (bisexuals?) in a game is criticism only to people who have a problem with gay people. I haven't played DA2, but, unless you can sex up every single character the moment you meet them, you're exaggerating for the sake of making your complaint seem legitimate.

One of the worst parts about Dragon Age 2 was that you didn't even need a character to like you to enter into a relationship with them. As long as you either praised or criticised them all the time they were a potential lover. seriously I don't need a bisexual harem to enjoy a game.

Isn't that generally how video game characters grow to like the player character, by praising them? Granted Origins had the "say the thing that makes them like you, you sociopath" system, but, again, unless the only way to make characters like you in DA2 is by petting them on the head and saying good boy/girl, it seems like you're exaggerating again.

uanime5:
I said that if you ruin several video games (or are perceived as having ruined several games) you can expect harsh criticism. Especially if you deny that your stories have any problems and call the gamers "entitled" for pointing out the problems in this story. I never said it was justified, that was something you made up to make me look bad.

Except what you're describing is not criticism. It's threats.

Once again I'm surprised how little I care.
I have nothing against models working for a convention, and nothing against women in general, regardless of what hobby they enjoy.
And I'm mature enough to not be mesmerized into blindly buying something solely on the basis of a nice looking person advertising it.
So why should I care.

Eyecandy hired to promote stuff, does the term "booth-babe" really bother anyone? Seems more like an accurate description (a babe in a booth).

JimB:

carnex:
What am I forcing onto others?

What are people who dislike Jack's "clothing" forcing onto you?

Oh, forgot to answer your direct question. Well, omega 616 wants to limit creative freedom of game designers. While removing those type of clothes would fix some games, it would break others and limit game designers. If we ever want to see games be considered as artistic medium we, the poeple who are main consumers, must support it as artictic medium.

But even without "art" notion, canesorhip is plain bad, We don't need our version of Hay's Code.

Still I see sensless chioices, and since I know omega 616 will continue to champion his opinion, at least he can champion cause I can somewhat agree with ;)

Good one, Bob.

Boot... Models modeling in an appropriate context. Cheerleader for Lolippop, comboy for Red Dead, bald guy for hitman. Simple and funny.

Aardvaarkman:

Merklyn236:
MovieBob, I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about everyone rushing in to address the symptoms of the problem (in this case, latent misogyny present is the gaming community) instead of actually trying to FIX the real problem. Of course, that's because the symptoms can easily be fixed by rules ("We're going to ban 'booth babes' from the convention, because we want to be gender inclusive" instead of "Um, people, maybe we should do a better job of being an inclusive gaming society here. You think? Maybe? Hello?"

Banning "booth babes" is an effective means to start fixing the problems within the community. If gamers going to conventions don't expect to see women presented as eye-candy, then that helps improve the community.

I would agree with that if A - the SOLE reason for not permitting companies to use them was on the basis of their (debatable) sexist presence, and B - that the booths they were banned from wouldn't be permitted to have had artwork representing their games that effected the same result (ala Dragon's Crown). If you're going to say a sexy woman at a booth is out of bounds, so are representations of sexy women.

MB202:
Incidentally, when Bob mentioned that looking good, presentable, and approachable is hard work, I was immediately reminded of Chris Hemsworth and how he had to change his entire diet and lifestyle to look as ripped as he was in Thor, and how he's considering leaving the Marvel Cinematic Universe simply because he doesn't want to conform to that lifestyle forever.

I think that the 'hard work' argument is pretty dumb. After all, there is a lot of hard work involved when the US federal government builds a 'road to nowhere'. Just to clear this up Bob, hard work is a negative. It requires that someone be paid, and the cost is passed on to the consumer.

And at least with a road to nowhere, once you lay aside the work involved and the consequent waste of public money, the road itself does not make America worse. The great majority who didn't need it won't bump into it, and the one man and his dog who actually use it are better off. But booth babes are widely considered to make the trade shows worse, and the hard work involved should really just be another nail in its' coffin.

Ive always hated the idea that these women had to lose there jobs because some were offended. No one once stood in there defense and now they have less ways to provide than before. People could have been considerate and suggested that the job "change" or evolve to cater to differing tastes but no. screw her and screw you was the idea and it still pisses me off to think of it.

rbstewart7263:
Ive always hated the idea that these women had to lose there jobs because some were offended. No one once stood in there defense and now they have less ways to provide than before. People could have been considerate and suggested that the job "change" or evolve to cater to differing tastes but no. screw her and screw you was the idea and it still pisses me off to think of it.

I don't know much about the modelling industry, but I would assume their respective agencies would find them other contracts. I don't believe they only do gaming conventions.

carnex:
Omega 616 wants to limit creative freedom of game designers.

If the choice is a binary "limit creative freedom of game designers or combat sexism in the video games industry" choice (and I'm not sure why it should be binary, but that seems to be the option I have), then I choose the latter. Nothing about a creator's right to be a douche trumps the right of a woman not to have a creator's douche-backwash aimed at her.

booth babe may not be the nicest of words to use but its a simple and easy term that stuck and everyone knows what it means. Its not always used in a negative light its just a descriptive term now. Dont know why its an issue, otherwise you'd better start taking sex out of everything as its the way the world works. Sex Sells. simples.

And further more like you said booth babes get paid very well as its a job with a short life span. So whats the problem ? they were not forced to do the job they chose to do it. Same with strippers as the feminists getting bent out of shape about. Who is taking advantage of who ? the man who throws huge amounts of money at the women for haveing the self confidence knowing how she is using her sexuality for her financial and personal gain. I fucking HATE Pach but there does seem to be alot of whiners these days. This is not just a video games industry "issue" this is an advertisement .... promblem i guess ? its just the way marketing works. Deal with it ?

This video basically just asked everyone to stay classy, nice Bob, I agree.

Also, while we're at it can we PLEEEEEEASE stop using the term 'White Knight', the freaking way people use it pisses me off to no end and idiots like to think it shots down any possible disscussion on touchy subjects like this. Just take the first page of this forum for example... F*CCCCCK!

JimB:

carnex:
Omega 616 wants to limit creative freedom of game designers.

If the choice is a binary "limit creative freedom of game designers or combat sexism in the video games industry" choice (and I'm not sure why it should be binary, but that seems to be the option I have), then I choose the latter. Nothing about a creator's right to be a douche trumps the right of a woman not to have a creator's douche-backwash aimed at her.

It's not a binary choice and there are infinite paths throuh the problem. But, as you could have already concluded, I'm against censorship. Full stop. All other mediums droped it, replacing it with age rankings. And even those are not mandatory except for "adult" ones.

It's basic human right, as we understand them now, to express yoursef in any way you want in public space. But, in return everyone is alowed to verbaly rip you open a new one. Or a dozen new ones for that matter. Forbiding one whole language (sexual appeal) i spiting in the face of that.

That isn't to say that you can't prostest it. It's just up to the artist will it bow to your demands or flip you the bird and weather the storm that inevetably comes.

PunkRex:
Also, while we're at it can we PLEEEEEEASE stop using the term 'White Knight', the freaking way people use it pisses me off to no end and idiots like to think it shots down any possible disscussion on touchy subjects like this.

Well, guess what. I almost never use that term, but here it applays in drowes. There isn't a problem in first place. There are some assholes for sure, but there are always assholes whatever you are doing. They have it under controll. There are groups who want to protect their "womanhood" by not leting them work and those who want to protect them when they dont need help (and socially maladjusted assholes, but I already mentioned them). They have it under controll and "helping" them actually makes their life harder. Leave them be!

Only help i could see them needeng is for convention staff to actually react to complaints of presneter on harrasment by individuals. Nothing else.

Two days in a row Escapist. You made me regret being a part of this community for two days in a row.
Stay classy.

Belated:
I cannot believe what I am reading, guys. Come on, Moviebob made some pretty compelling points here. Some of you are actually arguing with the notion that we should treat these women as people. Yes, we should treat them as people. Why? Because they are. And for all the reasons you might dehumanize somebody, "She looks pretty!" is nowhere near a good enough one.

Good work Moviebob. Ignore the haters, you're in the right here.

Jennacide:
The main part that bugs me is the impotent defense by some that tradeshow models "don't know what they are hawking." This is assumption at it's finest. I can name one person that is easily recognized by the community for her modelling appearance at E3 and PAX and is an avid gamer, Jessica Nigri. Now realize that there are other female gamers out there that are just as eye catching as Jessica, and stop assuming they don't play games. Hell, if most people on this forum met me at E3 or on the street, they would never guess what a horrible dork I am. The nerd subculture wants the old prejudice of nerd appearance to go away, but then continues to judge others by their looks when assuming if they are a member of said nerd culture.

It's not exactly a new thing. People constantly said that Morgan Webb on G4's X-Play was not a real gamer. Felicia Day has had people make similar claims about her. It seems to be a common occurrence.

Pretty girl is talking about a game and claims to work on it in some capacity? "Glorified Booth Babe."

And it's sad.

For reference:


Yeah, I'm sure it's completely justified to think they may not play games. Can't think of why any reason someone would falsely accuse them of not playing games. I mean what else could they possibly do to earn money? Obviously they HAVE to lie about playing games.

I'm now curious if Dodger has ever had to deal with that sort of thing.

The majority of gaming doesnt have a problem with promotional models Bob, a small, very loud whiny minority has a problem with them, and everyone else just wants them to shut the fuck up, and as smacking them upside the head isnt socially acceptable, getting rid of the models was just the easiest way to get them to shut their whiny mouths.

Sadly the gaming community didnt realize in time that the whiny minority would never be satisfied and would soak elsewhere with their tears once they got their way on one issue.

Personally I have no issue with the models, I get to be entertained for a few moments, and someone gets a paycheck out of it. I think those people who whined up a storm against promotional models are flat assholes for putting some people out of work. I mean seriously, why fuck with someones livelihood when you could just ignore them? Just because you think your vocal shouted opinion is more important than someones job.

uanime5:

Izanagi009:
2)problems should be fixed regardless of whether the issue is not isolated. As for the models, like I said, outward symptoms not main issue and the main issue that "we are not good with women" is still present given the Dragon's Crown debacle.
3) We do have inclusivity to some extent but it seems to be limited at most and championing for more people to come in should not be seen as bad even if we have this inclusivity that you speak of (we don't)
4)This is something I will admit to going overboard on but looking at general internet behavior when dealing with women's representation in games and media and it's either bile or trying to hold back the bile. Honestly, something must be done, re-education may be a bit much but something should be done.
5)It still is a common trend to fall back on these blanket statements without any sort of rational argument and I will call people out on it since it does not encourage discussion at all. In addition, cuddling people and saying that they are not sexist is not going to do anything, we have to call it when it's present and hold them accountable

2) How exactly does having attract women in a video game mean a company isn't good with women? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean women will hate it.

3) If this "inclusivity" results in talented people being replaced by less talented people to fulfil a gender or race quota then it should be opposed.

4) Again just because you don't like something doesn't mean women dislike it. You're assuming there's a problem where none exists.

5) Your post is full of blanket statements without any sort of rational argument. You claim that something needs to be done but are completely unable to prove that a problem exists or why we should be following your solution. In addition claiming that everyone with a view you don't like is sexist isn't going to fix anything.

To be fair, I'm currently studying games computing and your points on 3 and 4 are actually kinda wrong. I'm not in the industry yet, but I am hoping to be, and am working my way into it. At the moment I'm on a course with 40 other people, of which at the start only 5 of them are girls. 2 were easily running of firsts for their degree (that's the best a degree can be in England), 2 were average, running on 2-1/2-2s, and one failed. The trouble is, a significant portion of the people on the course (10 definitely, another 10 perhaps, not as clear) were definitely mistreating them. At one point one of the guys did accuse one of the girls with a first of not actually being interested in games, basically accusing her of being a fake geek girl. For a bit of context the guy who did that was doing far worse in the course. We actually had one of the mid-level girls change course because of the way people were treating her. I even got into a fight with one because my then girlfriend was dressed up in one of the sexy cosplay outfits (Harley Quinn arkham asylum. She adored harley and had been working on the costume for two months) for the gaming societies cosplay night. She's on an animating course so while she's not studying games, she did greatly enjoy games. He was really insulting to her, calling her a "slut just doing it for attention", and so of course I punched him one for it. So to simply say it's a non-issue, or we're trying to replace those fit for the jobs with those who aren't as qualified is just wrong. A certain percentage of the community do mistreat women, and there are women who are more qualified for it than some men who still get this marginalization. Just because you don't see the problem, doesn't mean it isn't there.

I believe that audience and consumer deceptive practices in any industry are wrong. This doesn't just involve selling things, mind you, but also in the presentation of a book, television show, movie, or video game.

To use an example, Naruto regularly shows characters being struck by other characters in fights, only to reveal it was a copy of themselves that harmlessly poofs into smoke. It's done repeatedly in fight sequences to spike tension and then let it fall right afterwards. Like they're trying to slap the audience in the face to keep them awake.

Or, to use a video game equivalent, the majority of Aliens Colonial Marines game play trailers were all about you fighting Aliens, and that was what we were promised. But a large portion of the game is actually spent fighting other human soldiers. Resulting in a Call of Duty-like experience with a Aliens paint job.

Regardless of the source or reason or medium, lying to your costumers about what you're trying to sell them is wrong. It will always be wrong and nothing is ever going to change that.

Dr. Crawver:

uanime5:

Izanagi009:
2)problems should be fixed regardless of whether the issue is not isolated. As for the models, like I said, outward symptoms not main issue and the main issue that "we are not good with women" is still present given the Dragon's Crown debacle.
3) We do have inclusivity to some extent but it seems to be limited at most and championing for more people to come in should not be seen as bad even if we have this inclusivity that you speak of (we don't)
4)This is something I will admit to going overboard on but looking at general internet behavior when dealing with women's representation in games and media and it's either bile or trying to hold back the bile. Honestly, something must be done, re-education may be a bit much but something should be done.
5)It still is a common trend to fall back on these blanket statements without any sort of rational argument and I will call people out on it since it does not encourage discussion at all. In addition, cuddling people and saying that they are not sexist is not going to do anything, we have to call it when it's present and hold them accountable

2) How exactly does having attract women in a video game mean a company isn't good with women? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean women will hate it.

3) If this "inclusivity" results in talented people being replaced by less talented people to fulfil a gender or race quota then it should be opposed.

4) Again just because you don't like something doesn't mean women dislike it. You're assuming there's a problem where none exists.

5) Your post is full of blanket statements without any sort of rational argument. You claim that something needs to be done but are completely unable to prove that a problem exists or why we should be following your solution. In addition claiming that everyone with a view you don't like is sexist isn't going to fix anything.

To be fair, I'm currently studying games computing and your points on 3 and 4 are actually kinda wrong. I'm not in the industry yet, but I am hoping to be, and am working my way into it. At the moment I'm on a course with 40 other people, of which at the start only 5 of them are girls. 2 were easily running of firsts for their degree (that's the best a degree can be in England), 2 were average, running on 2-1/2-2s, and one failed. The trouble is, a significant portion of the people on the course (10 definitely, another 10 perhaps, not as clear) were definitely mistreating them. At one point one of the guys did accuse one of the girls with a first of not actually being interested in games, basically accusing her of being a fake geek girl. For a bit of context the guy who did that was doing far worse in the course. We actually had one of the mid-level girls change course because of the way people were treating her. I even got into a fight with one because my then girlfriend was dressed up in one of the sexy cosplay outfits (Harley Quinn arkham asylum. She adored harley and had been working on the costume for two months) for the gaming societies cosplay night. She's on an animating course so while she's not studying games, she did greatly enjoy games. He was really insulting to her, calling her a "slut just doing it for attention", and so of course I punched him one for it. So to simply say it's a non-issue, or we're trying to replace those fit for the jobs with those who aren't as qualified is just wrong. A certain percentage of the community do mistreat women, and there are women who are more qualified for it than some men who still get this marginalization. Just because you don't see the problem, doesn't mean it isn't there.

You sort of touched on one of the primary reasons for this issue (and its many incarnations), one that I see appear frequently on these forums as well, and that is quite a few of them are projecting personal insecurities. (Your anecdote of the Girl having her "gaming cred" scrutinised by a class flunker).

I can't shake the feeling that some of these folks feel threatened by this shift in attention and a lot of folks are feeling lost or that their comfort zone is being withered as a result. Worse (for them) is the changing social dynamic. A small minority probably have limited contact with women (due to any number of reasons) and feel awkward or self concious around them. But online they can let their egos loose, which usually results in redirecting their issues towards their perceived problem.

The sad thing is not all these people are hopeless despots or spiteful misogynists (though it's easy to paint them as such for convenience) but have a whole host of personal issues that are never addressed and manifest in anti-social ways. A lot of bullied individuals vent their frustrations online or within their group (directed at external groups) and I wouldn't be surprised if the dominant culture in online gaming was composed of socially ostracised individuals.

Of course, there are clear cut assholes out there... but we tend to lump cripplingly insecure people in with them. This is probably why this subject grates so much, since these people may see themselves as victims and are frustrated that everyone is ganging up on them in the only space they were comfortable in. They band together and form echo chambers that reinforce their victimised viewpoint through confirmation bias. When they meet a conflicting viewpoint they react aggressively then retreat back to the safety of the echo chamber.

There shouldn't BE victims in all this, just an established community (Gaming) being acclimated to a new self image as a genderless hobby (rather then the once wrongly perceived Boys club). It's frustrating that this grates so much.

No way around this though. These changes don't stop and wait for the delicate and fragile. The best we can do is try to be LESS hostile towards those that resist (easing the transition for some), but still be focused on pushing these changes (which will still grate on others).

And that post was longer then I expected, hope you like Waffle(-ing):

MovieBob:
MovieBob gives us several good reasons to re-think our idea of the "Booth Babe".

Thanks for this episode Bob.

Oh, and one argument you might want to add to your hat. Since convention models are nothing new, why is it that gamers require convention models to know ANYTHING AT ALL about the product they're standing next to? Do you think the models standing next to the BMW know anything about the features of said BMW? Of course not! That's not their job! They're models not car salespersons.

And, just to be clear, that's nothing against models. I wouldn't expect the photographer who took beautiful photos of the BMW to know its features either, even if his or her photos are used for promotional purposes. It is the salesperson's job to know the feature, not anyone else's.

Thus, if a model has been hired to a gaming convention, why would you expect her to know anything about the product? That's not her job.

Why can't we have cute boys at booths? As Jim Sterling once said, if you want to have equality, HAVE SCANTILY CLAD HAVE NAKED MEN AS WELL AS SCANTILY CLAD HALF NAKED WOMEN.
Then everyone can be a little bit more uncomfortable and the feminists can shut the fuck up.

As for the whole 'booth babes look at these tits have this game' it's kinda the human condition. Sex and Violence are as human as... sex and violence. These two things have followed man ever since primitive cave dwellers and short of massive A+ SCIENCE and no ethics messing with the genome you aren't going to change that. What are the two biggest things in today's media, hell, media ever? Violence and pornography, to some extent. It's either IEDs on CNN/BBC 1 or it's late night seedy fucking on some pay per view channel and that's just television. The amount of gore and pornography which is found on the internet is just telling of how collectively fucked up the human race is so of course booth babes are going to be a thing and if it's a job why not? If it makes you uncomfortable that's on you, not them.

I feel that in this culture we have to repress that blood lust/general lust in the name of being 'civilized' when all it does is lead to repressed knee jerk reactionists, this society is already repressed enough as it is.

From the table top gaming industry perspective - we saw some "booth babes" in the 90's, and that's what we called them then as well.

On the one hand we thought it was cool when any woman was at the booth and could sell/demonstrate the product/game. That rocked! It was bonus if she was cute and pleasant to get along with, in the same way it was nice if the guys in the booths showered and weren't complete jerks. What always bothered me were the artificially inserted booth babes; the ones who looked around like "What a weird group of people" or worse yet as if they were appalled by what they were witnessing. Seriously, if they were only dressed as eye-candy, knew zero about the product they were trying to get you to look at, and weren't actively dressed up as a mascot/cosplay then I either felt sorry for them or was irritated by them. The ones that look comfortable in the environment? Rock on with them. Show up, have fun, get paid. Whatever works.

On the other hand, I felt exactly the same way about the folks selling floor cleaner, or whatever else, who obviously bought a booth for the wrong convention.

okay bob i've never talked smack about booth people (LOL). I mean any booth people. A convention is mix of happy bliss and exhaustion because it's super early in the morning.

its basically recapture Christmas morning. The times i've heard booth babe came one of my ex who called the girls dressed up at the booth a booth babe and one of them who called herself the head booth bitch. (her words note mine).

and i bought crap from her booth cause she had a great personality (......SHUT UP SHE DID) fine she was crazy and i find that appealing.

this has never been a thing for me. and I've gone to conventions to pick up hentai LOL. That was the main goal in mind to buy a product that would objectify woman. Maybe i didn't act like a jerk because i didn't wanna attention to myself when i had a bag full of hentai LOL.

Wow, lotta suspensions going on here... and a lot of replies besides, guess this is a topic that a lot of people feel like being jerks about. Oh wait, it's just the one guy, Monxeroth... can't say I'm surprised given how dismissive and perhaps even hostile his first comment here was.

Anyway, I've never really thought much one way or the other about hiring on models/spokespersons like that, it's a thing that happens, that isn't exclusive to videogame conventions, and while it can be said to be a cheap pandering way of drawing interest, there does seem to be some unnecessary hostility in the response to them and I agree that it's not that hard to read darker implications into those attitudes...

LifeCharacter:

Seriously in Mass Effect 3 you just have to click the friendly icon in few dialogue boxes to become someone's lover. You never have to worry about a character being in another relationship, not being ready for a relationship, needing to develop this relationship in any way, or being refused because a character isn't gay.

Well she didn't work on Mass Effect 3 so you can't really put that on her in any way. And you never have to worry about any love interest ever being in another relationship. And whining about how there are too many gays (bisexuals?) in a game is criticism only to people who have a problem with gay people. I haven't played DA2, but, unless you can sex up every single character the moment you meet them, you're exaggerating for the sake of making your complaint seem legitimate.

You can sex up anyone but your own siblings, the dwarf rogue, and a warrior woman who had a husband and then gets a romantic interest of her own. I'm not against the inclusion of the relationships themselves but it feels a bit lazy that the script for male and female Hawke is exactly the same with gender-specific pronouns swapped as necessary, especially when you have a smaller cast.

They did make that female-only love interest dlc character though. But he is a chaste irish-catholic man so I doubt people care about him so much.

One of the worst parts about Dragon Age 2 was that you didn't even need a character to like you to enter into a relationship with them. As long as you either praised or criticised them all the time they were a potential lover. seriously I don't need a bisexual harem to enjoy a game.

Isn't that generally how video game characters grow to like the player character, by praising them? Granted Origins had the "say the thing that makes them like you, you sociopath" system, but, again, unless the only way to make characters like you in DA2 is by petting them on the head and saying good boy/girl, it seems like you're exaggerating again.

Bioware games have pretty crappy relationship mechanics all around to be honest, comes with the dialogue setup I think.

DA2's system was that at various moments you had dialogue choices where you'd flirt with them or show affection, and it's worth noting that unlike in the Mass Effect games showing affection and being friendly are treated as entirely different dialog choices. I actually liked it for separating romantic interest from the Friendship/Rivalry dynamic, it's not like people in relationships agree on everything and you're capable of having a relationship with someone who's at any point on that scale. You even get some different dialogue based on if it's a friendly relationship or a more vitriolic/aggressive one. A step towards something mildly more realistic and certainly better from a storytelling standpoint.

The one glaring exception is Anders, who you gain rivalry points with any time you choose something other than "Get in my pants now," or "Mages are messianic beings and we treat them with unfair cruelty," when the choice presents itself but he's an unstable fuckwit in DA2 so... meh.

The only reason I disagree with booth babes is the potential for their overuse. As Bob said, using them to sell an unrelated product is pretty stupid, and I feel it implies that gaming is more of a "guy's thing" than an all-inclusive hobby.

Kind of like American football or racing.

"I see tits! I'm interested," said some guy at E3.

Let's face it, that line up there will never change. People will never change. Men will never change. How about we just accept that, continue to have "booth babes" at those shows to gawk at while we find games to be "also" be interested in, and live happily ever after and stop trying to over think this.

-_-

Man, I wish I had the time and the money and the justification (and the time and the money) to go to these trade shows, conventions, etc. where the issue of "booth babes" could be a problem which affected me. Oh my god, there's attractive women and game promotional stuff as far as the eye can see, it's like the nerd version of the Playboy Mansion, I must be bitter and resentful toward this happiness.

Monxeroth:
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Yeah from the very first paragraphs of the script to this video, all faith is lost already that it will have some coherent and or intelligent thing to say, add or even make some kind of attempt at a reasonable discussion with different views and also counterarguments presented and talked about.

Alright, see ya next week i guess...

"Oh no! A person is suggesting that people should afford trade show models respect as human beings even if they do not respect the work that they do. Even takes the sex-positive stance that states that if the work is there to do it's not the person doing the work at fault, or even that that work is a bad thing."

"Then goes further suggesting that the offhand labeling of women in industry as "borderline" or "glorified booth babes" is pretty grossly sexist!!!"

"Quick!!!! invalidate this quite reasonable premise by invoking the label "White knight" Then we can safely not listen to his opinion!!!!"

"Phew!!! That's lucky. Can't let this feminism stuff get out or soon there will be girl germs on our 'Call of Dutys' and 'Street Fightereses' "

The whole "booth babe" problem is that such know-nothing-but-look-good shouldnt even exist in conventions. regardless if its a gamer convention or a car traders one. they bring absolutely no added value.
And it has nothing to do with fake nerds girls
There are both fake nerd girls and fake nerd boys. and the key word here is fake. As in, one that isnt actually a nerd. and it has nothing to do with being pretty. It has to do with being "Attention whore".
And no, they dont need another name. because whether we call them botoh babes, models or even alien overlords, does not change the fact they shoulnt be there.
What should be there are spokeperson - as in a person who actually knows and can tell about the thing and not just look pretty.

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