The Big Picture: Stars, Worn

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shrekfan246:

Zhukov:

Oh, I can just hear it now, "Bu... bu... but that's not... that's not what happened in the extended universe!"

And thus a new decade of cries about "But Han shot first!" was born unto the internet.

OT: Insightful episode. As somebody who likes The Phantom Menace and likes many parts of the other two prequels, I'm not really all that afraid of how a new trilogy is going to "ruin" Star Wars forever again. It's not like much worth paying attention to has come out of the Star Wars brand since 2006, anyway.

That takes a lot of guts to say on the Internet, and I can respect that. I do not HATE the prequel trilogy, just think it could have been better. If anything's a threat to the sequel trilogy's success, it's the Vocal Minority of fans whose whining is the loudest than all others.

As a side note: HOLY SHIT, Peter Parker will be Spider-Man again?! Yay!

captcha: Brand Lift
sounds like what Disney's trying to do to STAR WARS anyway.

Mr Ink 5000:

Adam Locking:

Mr Ink 5000:
what was that about Peter Parker at 4:10?
no, noooo, I love superior Spider-man, it pisses all over the potential of killing Parker in the ultimates universe n just replacing him with a black peter parker

Is it bad this was the main thing I took away from this as well?

FFS, while it's obvious they were going to bring him back, couldn't they have waited more than a year? Actually give this arc some meaning and time to develop naturally? Superhero deaths are already dime-a-dozen by this point, keeping Peter dead the extra 12 months or so would hopefully give it a bit of impact, but no, back to life for Peter.

It's not as if Superior isn't selling well either, but I guess they need to status quo back for when the movie comes out...

if the first film is anything to go by, its gonna take more than ruining the comic to make the sequal look good

Wouldn't be the first time; in 2011, right on time for Captain America: The First Avenger, Steve Rogers was given the name Captain America again because up to that point, it was Bucky Barnes, who was "killed" again.

Darth_Payn:

shrekfan246:

Zhukov:

Oh, I can just hear it now, "Bu... bu... but that's not... that's not what happened in the extended universe!"

And thus a new decade of cries about "But Han shot first!" was born unto the internet.

OT: Insightful episode. As somebody who likes The Phantom Menace and likes many parts of the other two prequels, I'm not really all that afraid of how a new trilogy is going to "ruin" Star Wars forever again. It's not like much worth paying attention to has come out of the Star Wars brand since 2006, anyway.

That takes a lot of guts to say on the Internet, and I can respect that. I do not HATE the prequel trilogy, just think it could have been better. If anything's a threat to the sequel trilogy's success, it's the Vocal Minority of fans whose whining is the loudest than all others.

I certainly acknowledge that the prequels could be far better. Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith have embarrassing scripts which the performances of Samuel L. Jackson and Ewan McGregor couldn't even save, Hayden Christensen was a poor casting choice but I'm not sure any more talented actor would've even been able to do a better job, and Lucas' direction was fairly poor across the board.

Even the biggest saving grace of the films, the action sequences, tend to drag on a bit longer than they ideally should for the sake of showing how flashy they could make everything. And while I love the action sequences for what they are, the reason I think The Phantom Menace is still a good film even in comparison is because it still retained a bit of the 'heart' found in the original trilogy rather than being flashy and overblown for the sake of it. Sure, it was simpler, less subtle, and more overtly 'kid-friendly' than the original trilogy, but at the end of the day I actually enjoy it more than Return of the Jedi and about as much as A New Hope or Empire Strikes Back.

I've got no taste in films, though. I like Star Trek: First Contact/Generations/Nemesis and The Motion Picture, and quite enjoyed Into Darkness as well. XD

@2:21

Who failed the spot check?

I had always hoped that they would set it in either a 'distant' future or a distant past, it's a pretty big universe, no need to stick to the same cast of characters. Create something new and exciting, pretty please? Ah well, it's not going to happen...

I am interested how this is going to turn out though.

here's my thought: why would they HAVE to involve the original characters that heavily?
featuring them in a support role or as a mentor figure in one way or another is cool, it gives old viewers a connection, but to make the new trilogy SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THESE CHARACTER'S KIDS just feels like bad fanfic territory to an almost stereotypical level.

By all means, feature the old guard, but bring in something new in the protagonist's origins, an interesting environment and background, not something you'll commonly find in disney's direct-to-video sequels they brought out before.

I said from the first moment I heard about this new trilogy that it's be a mistake to bring back the original cast, unless the films were set 40 or so years after the original trilogy and even then...

Are you fucking kidding me!

Star Wars has such an amazingly rich world and history with so much to show and tell and all they'll do is start of from the old trilogy?

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!??!

God damnit, there is so much better stuff you can do with this, fucking idiots. There's a billion different stories you can tell with this franchise, there are millions of worlds to visit, tens of thousands of years of history to look into, hundreds of alien species and civilizations to see. But no, just revisit the stuff we've already seen, thats good enough right?

Idiots.

seditary:

I did too. I even tried to stop myself from laughing because I knew it was coming but I couldn't, it was so dumb I still lost it. I got quite a few looks lol.

It's a legit reaction. I had it spoiled well before I saw it so my response was fairly inorganic, but sweet Jesus was that a dumb reveal.

I'll preface this by saying that I LOVE Star Wars. Loved the original movies, love most of the EU, and am a big fan of most of the videogames (Rogue Squadron rail shooters can suck it, X-Wing and Tie All the Way.) Heck, the vector graphics star wars game (sit down booming base cabinet with a steering yolk) is what probably MADE me a gamer in the first place. I didn't love the prequels, but I wasn't supposed to. They were made to bring kids young enough to be MY OWN kids into the franchise. And even though it wasn't what I wanted, I can't fault them for that. I TOO wish more kids knew, loved, and GOT Star Wars.

Having said that, I look over at my bookcase dedicated to dozens of EU novels, Dark Horse comics, tabletop roleplaying books going all the way back to the West End Games D6 version, and even some of the classic Marvel Comics Star Wars and all I can think is... I don't want ANY of this in Episode VII. Not even my beloved Dirty Dozen bad-boy Wraith Squadron.

Don't get me wrong, I still like MOST of that stuff. I even LOVE a lot of it. But that's not what I want to see in episode VII. I'd love to see some of that stuff on the big or small screen. But I think that the established EU and the movie canon... need to go their separate ways. The problem lies with the EU. There's just too much for it to be enticing to newcomers, and for someone like me who has followed the whole thing... there would not be anything NEW to an episode VII adhering to the EU. Hell, there wouldn't be anything new in episode XXVIII. As much as I would love to see Booster Terrick's Gambit steal a star destroyer just before the battle of Thyferra, Kyp Durron and the Sun Crusher, Kyle Katarn vs the Dark Troopers, Keeyan Farlander and the Redemption Scenario, or even the only mission of Dinner Squadron (the only NR squadron with a 100% success rate and no losses) there's just too much EU out there to do it any real justice keeping the movies "canon" with the EU. Better to start fresh. But they just have to remember, George Lucas rebooted another property once... Willow. And I thought that could not have turned out ANY worse. I'm kind of iffy on the choice of JJ, but as long as he does better than Shadow Moon was to Willow...

Ok, it could be half as bad as that and still suck. But I don't think he could do much worse.

That Mace Windu movie sounds better than anything Abrams is going to crap out.

Good piece here Bob. I'm not sure how effective Harrison Ford will be given how much he doesn't seem to give a shit about the movies he's in. I might be wrong, but I'm just saying. Han's a really specific energy. Hope Harrison hasn't gotten too old to play him.
not in kansas

TheDrunkNinja:

unacomn:
If Kyle Katarn isn't in this movie, it will fail! Give us the bearded wonder!

Seriously, if Disney wants so bad to be in our good graces with this movie, they'd put in the Chuck Norris of the Star Wars universe for at least a cameo bit.

And cast Chuck Norris as the appropriately aged Katarn? Yes please!

I'm totally with Bob on this one. Cameo's with new character focus is what I've been expecting since it was announced.

Though, I'm cgiving him credit for the Solo death thing. Harrison Ford himself stated in an interview (long?) before the sale of Lucas' Empire that he wished Solo died in Jedi.

Why do people believe a torch needs to be passed from the good Star Wars movies into these new future ones? That's a fallacious assumption that needs to be quashed. The stories of all the characters from the first six movies are done now. They never got married. They never had kids. They never had a future. They saved the galaxy and each other in their present, and that was good enough for all time.

--Morology!

PS: You know what you should do, Disney execs who will never read this? Take out the episode numbers and just call future Star Wars movies Star Wars: [New Title]. Keep the Force. Keep lightsabers. Keep blasters and spaceships. Keep aliens and droids. Keep light speed. Keep all that stuff, but throw out Luke, Leia, Han, Darth Vader, Chewie and all the rest of those guys and the places they went. Find new samurai and cowboy stories to tell on different planets with other, different wars looming in the backdrop. Your movies will be better for it, and they'll stand the test of time. The stuff you're planning now -- Star Wars: The Next Generation: The Further Adventures of Leia and Han's Amazing Kids -- is going to suffer in comparison to its source material and do nothing but piss off tons of fans who care a lot more about the expanded universe than they ever did about the original trilogy. Oh, that and make you tons and tons of money.

I already lost you, didn't I?

I think now might be a good time for Star Wars fans to watch the Harry Plinkett Review of Abrams' first Star Trek film. To be sure, it doesn't pan the movie, but thoroughly explains in the plainest terms that the desires of sci-fi properties' fanbases DO NOT factor strongly into the creative decisions behind the making of these kinds of blockbuster movies. At the very least, it might get people who are on the fence to not waste their money.

As much as I love the early Star Wars films, I really can't get behind the franchise/brand anymore. Just like Batman, Superman, X-Men, almost every rock/pop act that was good in the 1960s-2000s, Final Fantasy VII, etc..., the expectation bubble on Star Wars burst early along the way and people just seem reluctant to let go and embrace new properties. I certainly understand how hard that can be. It took me about a half-dozen of those awful Expanded Universe novels and the first two prequel films to finally let go of my hopes that the Star Wars universe would somehow be treated with respect I had given it as a dedicated fan.

Thinking on it now, I almost wish that properties like Star Wars, if they must stick around, would operate in a similar fashion as the Final Fantasy game series, where common themes/elements/tropes carry from iteration to iteration but where every new 'edition' of the property starts with a completely clean storytelling slate - new characters, new plot, etc.. Seeing these new movie series stumble along trying to balance fan service with the old characters against the demands of telling a good story with brand new characters has done nothing but bog the stories down completely. Part of what made the original Star Wars work was that it was all NEW. Lucas and company didn't have to feature a bunch of cameos by washed-up and elderly space heroes of days-gone-by (which at that time would have been played by actors the ages of John Wayne, Katherine Hepburn, Charlton Heston, etc...).

That said, I'll happily do without seeing this upcoming hipster-casted Star Wars movie where Han, Luke, or Leia might suffer an ignominious end of the sort that Captain Kirk suffered when they shoehorned him into Star Trek Generations. I'll just assume that one of them gets cut down by Darth Cumberbatch (a.k.a. a go-to for villains that matches Abrams' status of go-to sci-fi director) and look forward to the far-more-entertaining tidal wave of criticism, outrage, and internet memes that follow.

Honestly, can't it be a bit of both?

Passing the torch can be a difficult proposition for fans to accept. Done too quickly and you're left feeling like someone just slapped on a title and a few cameos into an original script they had no faith in standing on its own. Poo poo the idea of a last hurah all you want, but it can also serve to ween us into the new cast, rather than pray they hit the same luck Star Trek: Next Generation had.

I'm going to be the jerk here and say that I hope the new trilogy will fail gruesomely, or at least the one jay jay is directing.

1. He might never be allowed to do Star Trek again.
2. The schadenfreude of seeing Star Wars fans receive the same treatment would be glorious.

Yeah, I'm that petty sometimes. Sue me.

Well this is the perfect time to add in a Star Wars Filibuster via Patton Oswalt from Parks & Recs... cue the coolest idea ever.

Also if you want to see the original video, non-animated, here it is before NBC takes it down. Just to note this would be perfect too if Disney got back the rights to the other IPs also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDUrw7j0UA4

Film will be fantastic and all you over-protective cynical nerds will rush to see it on day one regardless of your moaning here. Bob included. (Yes, I'm a nerd too, put the pitchforks down.)

All this hatred for J.J Abrams baffles me. It's as though he physically forced his way into your house and slapped you in the face with an old fish. He is actively pursuing more content of your favourite franchises in such a way that breathes new life into them and yet all anyone goes on about is this 'Mystery Box' thing. The whole mystery idea was something he very briefly touched upon in a couple of interviews, Benedict Cumberbatch's role in the ST: Into Darkness was never a big secret. Although I know you all like to pat yourselves on the back and say you saw it coming, guess what? There was nothing to see coming, everyone knew he was Khan before the film came out.

I can't wait for the new trilogy. I do have some small reservations about the idea of the first film being centered around the old guard, however I know that the people working on the script will make it work. Plus I don't see Star Wars as some holy sacred cow that can never be touched or mentioned without making prayer gestures.

Kyrian007:
Snip

I'd say that there's plenty of room in there for both the new movies and the EU if Disney bothered to put some effort into it, at least taking cue from it as to what works and doesn't. I would hate nothing more than to see the movies invalidate the entire EU because a lot, I'd even say most, of it is pretty damn good. As much as people love to whine about it, the EU is a lot better than the movies themselves in a lot of ways, and taking cues from it wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen to these new movies. That, and I doubt most of those who complain about the EU could really do any better themselves despite claims to the contrary.

Star Wars VII: Lemonade Mother Fucker do you drink it?

Any future Star Wars, I fear, will suffer from an omnipresent issue; The Expanded Universe. I'm not speaking against it, far from it. If anything, the Star Wars EU is often far better than it's film counter parts.

In my opinion, neither film trilogy even approaches the quality of the Knights of the Old Republic games.

There are plenty of Star Wars stories that could make fine films, but a grand majority of them take place a mere few years after Return of the Jedi, and feature Han, Luke and Leia still young, a quality their real life counter parts do not share. Unless somebody has perfected that technology they used on Jeff Bridges in Tron: Legacy while I wasn't looking, I doubt they're going to be willing or able to sell the now elderly Mark Hamill playing a Luke Skywalker in his early thirties.

And they can't very well jump the characters forward to an appropriate age. With all the crazy shit that happens, even right after Return of the Jedi, a time skip would require an astronomical exposition dump that would take up half a standard length movie.

If Disney and Lucas Film intend to make a film, especially one that overrides the highly complex events of the Expanded Universe, it will inevitably be compared to the Expanded Universe, and simply being of equal quality won't be enough.

What George Lucas and company consider Star Wars to be is simple and small compared to what it's fanbom (Many of whom have expanded it with their very own work) considers it to be. Now that KOTOR and it's ilk have displayed the potential of the Star Wars setting, a mark of quality is expected beyond any of the films; the typical mono-myth isn't going to cut it anymore.

Imagine if somebody wrote a sequel to Dragon Age that took place from the perspective of some random family with no relation to the cast or events from the first game; it would feel like a total regression. (Crazy, right?)

Being as good as the original trilogy is no longer sufficient.

Hmm, my fear that I will dislike the new trilogy enough that it will discolor future watchings of the original three are greater than my desire to see whatever they make.
(and yes, that can, has and will happen - whether it be books, games or movies)
So I think the only solution is for me to just not see them.

Bruce Kilkowski:
Eh, I don't have much of a problem with this. I'd rather see the original characters play significant roles before being retired for good, instead of just being cameos/plot points. Heck, the latter wouldn't be all that different from going the Alien³ "offscreen death just because" route.

And nice to see that you're representing all parties involved based on only their worst work and dismissing the whole idea as a "fan film." Real class act, Bob. This is the kind of cynicism the internet needs less of.

Hell, I'm with Bob on this one. I would prefer they do key points of 'remember what I did' rather than star them. While part of it is to do with their age, their characters should step aside for new stories and ideas. I was excited for Star Wars 1313, until I found out you would play as Boba Fett.

I don't want to play as the same old characters, I want new ones with plots people can't see coming by opening their eyes. I want Knights of the Old Republic stories, fresh characters, interesting ideas, not the same old people doing the same old thing.

He is right though, this has a high chance of being a 'fan film'. I just won't care for it when it does go down that rabbit hole. Look at the latest Alice in Wonderland movies, and Pirates movies. Same old characters doing the same old things.

Is it sad that now all I can think about is a Mace Windu / Little Rascals crossover film?

Speaking as a non-fan (as in, I've seen and enjoyed the films and a few games then basically tucked the whole thing away in my mind under "Oh yeah that stuff, that's pretty cool - now back to this 40K...." ), all I want to see is the Empire being bad-ass. Or Mace Windu's lemon stall adventures.

Also: just wanted to say that I only recently started watching your videos MovieBob but I think their well-thought out and entertaining (edutainment!), so kudos!

Preach it brother, preach it.

One rumor that I did like however was Hugo Weaving auditioning for a role. I think that he would be a great sith lead.

I agree very much with your sentiment Bob. I'm a lifelong star wars fan, and as much as I love the original Big three, I want Star Wars going forward to focus on new characters; give the big three their send-off as you suggest but don't make them the main characters. This very much strikes me as a J.J Abrams thing to do, a choice of director I've never been convinced by. We'll see I suppose.

I'm not terribly interested in a new set of Star Wars movies, but it was pretty inevitable. I'm all for the original cast being in the movie, but yeah, cameos would be best. The ironic part about 'giving fans what they want' is that if they REALLY wanted to give Star Wars fans what they wanted they would just adapt the Thrawn trilogy into the new movie trilogy, but the prequels shit all over a lot of the extended universe anyway so I lost all hope where that was concerned a long time ago.

Time will tell how things will turn out but after seeing Star Trek: Into Darkness I have a feeling that Abrams will get too lost in the 'nostalgia' and fail to make an interesting movie. I just hope we won't have to see any way-to-choreographed, over-the-top lightsaber battles that we saw in the prequels.

Without sounding like a troll, am I the only one (shaddap!) who is just "meh" about star wars? I remember thinking "what films have loads of love but I haven't seen" and obviously star wars was one, I sat down and watched, in order, all of them and was left very underwhelmed.

The happened with Indiana Jones and then lord of the rings, they are all HUGE franchises and they don't do a thing for me.

Though I guess star wars was ruined for me, as I just naturally picked up that darth vader was Anakin Skywalker and he was actually Luke's farther but the only thing I like about them was Maul and he seems kind of hated, I also didn't mind Jaja but I know how much everybody loves him!

unacomn:
If Kyle Katarn isn't in this movie, it will fail! Give us the bearded wonder!

image

He doesn't even need to make a full appearance but even an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of him would make my day.

Sheo_Dagana:
I'm not terribly interested in a new set of Star Wars movies, but it was pretty inevitable. I'm all for the original cast being in the movie, but yeah, cameos would be best. The ironic part about 'giving fans what they want' is that if they REALLY wanted to give Star Wars fans what they wanted they would just adapt the Thrawn trilogy into the new movie trilogy, but the prequels shit all over a lot of the extended universe anyway so I lost all hope where that was concerned a long time ago.

Though I think I enjoyed those while I was reading them, I didn't come away feeling like Zahn's books were even close to Episodes VII, VIII, and IX material. For one, the new characters in those books were simply awful. I don't remember much about the new villain Admiral Thrawn, except that he had blue skin and could somehow look at a civilization's great works of art and immediately discern the tactical weaknesses of said civilization's space military (i.e. yeah sure, okay...I guess artists and military strategists are two sides of the same coin). The insane Jedi clone was similarly tiresome and cartoonish, as was Luke's new foe/friend Mara Jade (especially when she would reiterate her promise to kill Luke again and again...).

Secondly, if I recall, none of the three Zahn books seem to end with much along the lines of a cliffhanger or series low-point. At the end of each book, the good guys get lucky at the points when all hope is lost, to the point where each book has the arc of an Inspector Gadget episode (with Thrawn flying off waving his fist like Dr. Claw).

What ultimately turned me off of the Expanded Universe was an idea that it wasn't 'expanded' at all. Even dozens of years after the Battle of Endor, the books were STILL piling on new adventures with the same half-dozen characters, none of whom could ever possibly be killed off (i.e. due to iron-clad rules by Lucasarts) and replaced by newer, younger characters. In some of the books, you could almost tell that the writers were struggling to work within these limitations, desperately squeezing the same old characters dry, only being able to kill off the EU characters (basically all red-shirts by default).

Time will tell how things will turn out but after seeing Star Trek: Into Darkness I have a feeling that Abrams will get too lost in the 'nostalgia' and fail to make an interesting movie. I just hope we won't have to see any way-to-choreographed, over-the-top lightsaber battles that we saw in the prequels.

I feel like that's an area where Abrams and co. will probably do a solid job. I didn't like the Star Trek reboots, but the one-on-one fight scenes in those films seemed to work pretty well. Even so, who knows what's going to happen. I'm assuming the studio will push to have more lightsaber acrobatics.

unacomn:
If Kyle Katarn isn't in this movie, it will fail! Give us the bearded wonder!

Funny you should say that, I was having a discussion with a colleague of mine just this morning about the new Star Wars movies and whether any of the characters who have appeared in the video games might show up. We ended up having a 20 minute "wouldn't Michael Fassbender make a great Kyle Katarn?" conversation. I don't think he should be a main character but it would be kind of fun for him to show up.

In regards to killing of one of the original cast, Han Solo is the obvious frontrunner due to Ford's dislike of the character. For the purposes of narrative, it might be Luke that gets it, though.

The fact that he either is or at least should be near-omnipotent as a Jedi Master is kind of a problem in terms of creating meaningful conflict for the movie plots.

I just hope that the bad guys are something different than Sith/Dark Jedi this time. I'd even take Ssi'Ruuk (or whatever they were called) over another Sith bad guy.

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