Steam's second uncensored sex game. Yet more lesbians. (NSFW)

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undeadsuitor:

runic knight:

All that said, Kotaku's hypocrisy in this situation given their promotion of censorship in the past is just farcical. I wont advocate for this game to be censored, it shouldn't be nor should any others be, but I hope the jackasses at kotaku have self awareness enough to learn from this situation of being on the other side of the moral puritanical-ism in gaming they have promoted in the past.

Porn is porn

Not porn is not porn

I don't know why it's hypocritical to allow sexualization in media where it has a purpose, but have issues with it where it doesn't.

Think of it like token sexualization. No one likes tokens right?

That is not an apt comparison.

I understand why a place like kotaku likes LKIAB but not criminal girls. It's the consent. It's a oddly uncommon thing with porn games.

undeadsuitor:

runic knight:

All that said, Kotaku's hypocrisy in this situation given their promotion of censorship in the past is just farcical. I wont advocate for this game to be censored, it shouldn't be nor should any others be, but I hope the jackasses at kotaku have self awareness enough to learn from this situation of being on the other side of the moral puritanical-ism in gaming they have promoted in the past.

Porn is porn

Not porn is not porn

I don't know why it's hypocritical to allow sexualization in media where it has a purpose, but have issues with it where it doesn't.

Think of it like token sexualization. No one likes tokens right?

For starters the "where it doesn't" is entirely subjective opinion, namely, their subjective opinion, being presented as some moral absolute being defended by arguments that would apply to this new game they are actively supporting now because of it being part of the media clique instead of some indie random.

Furthermore, it should never be the media's choice to decide for other people where it does fit. That should be up to the audience to decide on that for themselves, not be forced to adhere to the moral puritanicalism of a narrow political viewpoint being pushed by the media and forcing game creators to adhere or face harm for it.

Finally, the complaints against sexualization have been applied across the board, from games where the sexualization is the purpose such as DOA and Honeypop, to games where it is an intentional design ascetic such as Dragon's Crown or Bayonetta, to games where it isn't even intentional such as complaints about overwatch butt. Having that much protest against anything remotely sexualized reveals it has nothing at all to do with "purpose" in their complaints then and their support now. Thus their hypocrisy for it. The relationship between creator and the media clique on the other hand seems to explain this sudden change in tune quite well though.

gyrobot:

While the industry continues to hypocritically bash Japanese games for doing the same thing. But this? The beloved pet project fighting against social injustice

Meanwhile, they also like the 4chan produced Katawa Shoujo, Saya no Uta, and Kindred Spirits on the Roof, so maybe, just maybe, their objection is something related to the sexiness and not the sexiness itself.

And the other games need to be patched. LKIB was released uncensored.

gyrobot:
And the other games need to be patched. LKIB was released uncensored.

Are you talking about Katawa Shoujo, Saya no Uta, and Kindred Spirits on the Roof? The first two were not released on steam and the third was released uncensored.

StatusNil:

runic knight:

All that said, Kotaku's hypocrisy in this situation given their promotion of censorship in the past is just farcical. I wont advocate for this game to be censored, it shouldn't be nor should any others be, but I hope the jackasses at kotaku have self awareness enough to learn from this situation of being on the other side of the moral puritanical-ism in gaming they have promoted in the past.

Indeed. It would be interesting to compare the coverage this is getting to, well, most stuff. Let's see:

Kotaku
Polygon
Gamasutra
Rock, Paper, Shotgun
Kill Screen
The Mary Sue

Well, damn. I guess it pays to network.

https://archive.fo/JCBO2

Oh, look, here's Kotaku's Deputy Editor:

https://archive.is/oOli9

The lesson to aspiring Independent game developers ought to be obvious.

Yes, it's avoid making indie games that aren't seen as safe bets or mainstream entertainment, as major outlets like Steam might refuse to sell your game due to their arbitrary codes. If you are lucky, you might get some publicity via journalists who's job it is to talk about games, assuming they are sympathetic to indie games.

Having already played through Ladykiller several times, I can say it is easily one of my favourite games of 2016 and something I can thoroughly recommend to people who typically hate visual novels (I count myself in that group). To lump it in with the likes of most Japanese dating sims is a gross undersell.

altnameJag:

gyrobot:

While the industry continues to hypocritically bash Japanese games for doing the same thing. But this? The beloved pet project fighting against social injustice

Meanwhile, they also like the 4chan produced Katawa Shoujo, Saya no Uta, and Kindred Spirits on the Roof, so maybe, just maybe, their objection is something related to the sexiness and not the sexiness itself.

tbh 2/3 of those are Richard Eisenbeis, iirc he is one of a few Kotaku writers that lives in Japan and writes about Japanese stuff. I enjoyed his anime and VN reviews awhile ago, and I don't recall him being one to complain about fanservice beyond what average otaku would complain about. The rest of Kotaku plays Japanese fanservice games reluctantly for the clicks.

I can't believe you brought up Saya no Uta, because that is the worst example to bring to the table. I've only seen Saya no Uta mentioned 3 times in "mainstream" games journalism or whatever you want to call it. Kotaku's review (this review convinced me to play it), The Escapist's review, and Extra Credits Halloween recommendations.

The game is a word of mouth, morbid curiosity. It's a game you try because it looks fucked up but you just have to know what it's about. If a journalist were to object to sexiness in Japanese video games, THIS would definitely be the game to object to. I'm just saying.

A Fork:

I can't believe you brought up Saya no Uta, because that is the worst example to bring to the table. I've only seen Saya no Uta mentioned 3 times in "mainstream" games journalism or whatever you want to call it. Kotaku's review (this review convinced me to play it), The Escapist's review, and Extra Credits Halloween recommendations.

The game is a word of mouth, morbid curiosity. It's a game you try because it looks fucked up but you just have to know what it's about. If a journalist were to object to sexiness in Japanese video games, THIS would definitely be the game to object to. I'm just saying.

That's exactly my point. They don't.

Which leads me to believe that it's not just sexiness or whatever that leads them to criticize the games they do. Context is key.

altnameJag:

That's exactly my point. They don't.

Which leads me to believe that it's not just sexiness or whatever that leads them to criticize the games they do. Context is key.

Complaining about Japanese porn games is non-productive, because you're essentially complaining about porn mostly exclusive to one country, instead of actual video games. These journalists complain about games that are visible and what they themselves and the audience would be interested in. Complaining about the sexualization of female characters in X mildy popular video game is pretty simple and common, everyone has already been introduced the concept, and you don't even have to think. All you have to do is parrot arguments you've heard before.

But Saya no Uta, that's hard. This is directly in clash with First Amendment rights. It is no longer about taste so much as it is about ethics. This game isn't Fate/Zero the visual novel. In all three mentions by games journalism I remember, they downplayed something EXTREMELY important, for obvious reasons.

Spoilers and NSFL

The reason no one complains about Saya no Uta is because, like most VNs, chances are they have no idea it exists. If they do for some improbable reason, they have no idea what it actually is, they just know it's Lovecraftian horror, has raving user reviews, and there are no complaints across the board, it's probably nothing too bad. In the end they won't play it because they have bigger fish to fry.

I'm ok with this. Just like how I'd want people to be ok with me playing Senran Kagura.

RaikuFA:
I'm ok with this. Just like how I'd want people to be ok with me playing Senran Kagura.

I'm okay with you playing Senran Kagura. Are you okay with me thinking that the fanservice in those games is rather... yuck?

NPC009:

RaikuFA:
I'm ok with this. Just like how I'd want people to be ok with me playing Senran Kagura.

I'm okay with you playing Senran Kagura. Are you okay with me thinking that the fanservice in those games is rather... yuck?

I like it for the over the top sillyness. Believe it or not none of the girls are attractive to me. Though those "fatalities" in estival versus to make me uncomfortable. I try to avoid activating/skipping them.

Also the message in the series is one more people should take to heart.

RaikuFA:

NPC009:

RaikuFA:
I'm ok with this. Just like how I'd want people to be ok with me playing Senran Kagura.

I'm okay with you playing Senran Kagura. Are you okay with me thinking that the fanservice in those games is rather... yuck?

I like it for the over the top sillyness. Believe it or not none of the girls are attractive to me. Though those "fatalities" in estival versus to make me uncomfortable. I try to avoid activating/skipping them.

Also the message in the series is one more people should take to heart.

I realise the way I worded my post made it sound like a challenge, but what I meant was that I understand what you like doesn't have to define what you are, and that I don't want my opinion of the games doesn't equal my opinion on the players.

BTW it's not exactly my cup of tea, but I know plenty of people who watch stuff like Keijo!!!!!!!! and Monster Musume for shits and giggles. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Heck, I could even understand people liking certain characters for their personality.

NPC009:

RaikuFA:

NPC009:

I'm okay with you playing Senran Kagura. Are you okay with me thinking that the fanservice in those games is rather... yuck?

I like it for the over the top sillyness. Believe it or not none of the girls are attractive to me. Though those "fatalities" in estival versus to make me uncomfortable. I try to avoid activating/skipping them.

Also the message in the series is one more people should take to heart.

I realise the way I worded my post made it sound like a challenge, but what I meant was that I understand what you like doesn't have to define what you are, and that I don't want my opinion of the games doesn't equal my opinion on the players.

BTW it's not exactly my cup of tea, but I know plenty of people who watch stuff like Keijo!!!!!!!! and Monster Musume for shits and giggles. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Heck, I could even understand people liking certain characters for their personality.

I actually did mean to put what I added into my initial post but was running out of time on my break.

Also haven't seen Keijo but I keep meaning to. MM ain't my cup of tea.

A Fork:

altnameJag:

That's exactly my point. They don't.

Which leads me to believe that it's not just sexiness or whatever that leads them to criticize the games they do. Context is key.

Complaining about Japanese porn games is non-productive, because you're essentially complaining about porn mostly exclusive to one country, instead of actual video games. These journalists complain about games that are visible and what they themselves and the audience would be interested in. Complaining about the sexualization of female characters in X mildy popular video game is pretty simple and common, everyone has already been introduced the concept, and you don't even have to think. All you have to do is parrot arguments you've heard before.

But Saya no Uta, that's hard. This is directly in clash with First Amendment rights. It is no longer about taste so much as it is about ethics. This game isn't Fate/Zero the visual novel. In all three mentions by games journalism I remember, they downplayed something EXTREMELY important, for obvious reasons.

Spoilers and NSFL

The reason no one complains about Saya no Uta is because, like most VNs, chances are they have no idea it exists. If they do for some improbable reason, they have no idea what it actually is, they just know it's Lovecraftian horror, has raving user reviews, and there are no complaints across the board, it's probably nothing too bad. In the end they won't play it because they have bigger fish to fry.

That was the most uncomfortable parts of the VN for me. However those scenes are less than 10% of the content, and the story holds very well even without them. The point of the scenes is to reinforce how the character has been gradually losing his morality beyond the point of no return.

The scenes are part of it; but they are neither the focus, the central point, the climax or the pay off for going through the whole story. So it's pretty misguided to call the whole visual novel "porn" (it's like calling Mass Effect "porn simulator").

NPC009:

RaikuFA:
I'm ok with this. Just like how I'd want people to be ok with me playing Senran Kagura.

I'm okay with you playing Senran Kagura. Are you okay with me thinking that the fanservice in those games is rather... yuck?

Are you going label me as an "-ist" and try to shame me for it?

proxyhostlawl:

NPC009:

RaikuFA:
I'm ok with this. Just like how I'd want people to be ok with me playing Senran Kagura.

I'm okay with you playing Senran Kagura. Are you okay with me thinking that the fanservice in those games is rather... yuck?

Are you going label me as an "-ist" and try to shame me for it?

If you consider me having a different opinion and expressing this opinion in public as shaming you, then yes, I'm shaming you. Also, grow a spine.

proxyhostlawl:

NPC009:

RaikuFA:
I'm ok with this. Just like how I'd want people to be ok with me playing Senran Kagura.

I'm okay with you playing Senran Kagura. Are you okay with me thinking that the fanservice in those games is rather... yuck?

Are you going label me as an "-ist" and try to shame me for it?

I might. You know if it is something shame worthy. I say after posting a thread about a lesbian BDSM game.. Shame sure is strange isn't it. :P

proxyhostlawl:

NPC009:

proxyhostlawl:

Are you going label me as an "-ist" and try to shame me for it?

If you consider me having a different opinion and expressing this opinion in public as shaming you, then yes, I'm shaming you. Also, grow a spine.

If you think something is yuck, I do not care. It is when you try control what other people enjoy (assuming it harms no one) that I tend to go, "Hey don't be a dick." Your opinion should stop and start with you. You shouldn't try and force other people to have it too.
And just so you know, I have grown spines before. But that was before the lab burned down. Stupid villagers and their stupid torches.

When dose saying this is yuck turn into trying to control what people enjoy? I don't think there really is a line. When you call something yuck, you making a judgement that this thing is bad and bad things shouldn't be. How do you make a value judgement with out judging the value.

proxyhostlawl:

nomotog:

proxyhostlawl:

Are you going label me as an "-ist" and try to shame me for it?

I might. You know if it is something shame worthy. I say after posting a thread about a lesbian BDSM game.. Shame sure is strange isn't it. :P

I have no shame. It was beaten out of me by Rocky Horror.

Worst 18 hours of my life. :P

"Steam's second uncensored sex game" now censored, by the author herself: http://archive.is/C7UdA

Apparently, the "darker side of fantasy" it depicted didn't go over well with all the sensitive folks the media cliquesters were callously pushing it to, with clearly insufficient Trigger Warnings. Which yet again goes to show it's not what you make but who you know that determines whether it's "gross" and wrong or something to be vigorously promoted in the learned view of the Eminent Scholars of the Ludic Arts.

There should be a hashtag or something to describe this simple fact.

So, due to consumer feedback, a product was changed, even though the people who reviewed it didn't think it was a problem? Am I parsing that correctly?

So, business as usual then. Just waiting for the gaggle of ethical posters to chime in about "artistic integrity" or "self-censorship" or something, despite the fact that it was clearly the artist's sole decision to make.

altnameJag:
So, due to consumer feedback, a product was changed, even though the people who reviewed it didn't think it was a problem? Am I parsing that correctly?

So, business as usual then. Just waiting for the gaggle of ethical posters to chime in about "artistic integrity" or "self-censorship" or something, despite the fact that it was clearly the artist's sole decision to make.

I know one review had a problem with it. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/01/17/ladykiller-in-a-bind-review/ That segment was an issue from the start. At first you didn't have the option to skip or know what was going to happen. That was patched in and now it is being patched again. So when you think about it's the second or third time the game was "censored". Quotation marks because I don't really buy the idea of self censorship as a thing.

nomotog:

altnameJag:
So, due to consumer feedback, a product was changed, even though the people who reviewed it didn't think it was a problem? Am I parsing that correctly?

So, business as usual then. Just waiting for the gaggle of ethical posters to chime in about "artistic integrity" or "self-censorship" or something, despite the fact that it was clearly the artist's sole decision to make.

I know one review had a problem with it. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/01/17/ladykiller-in-a-bind-review/ That segment was an issue from the start. At first you didn't have the option to skip or know what was going to happen. That was patched in and now it is being patched again. So when you think about it's the second or third time the game was "censored". Quotation marks because I don't really buy the idea of self censorship as a thing.

Fair enough. Lady Killer in a Bind isn't my jam, so I didn't really look into it.

I was just noting that the dev's post was a bog standard "people didn't like it for reasons" post that I've seen a dozen times before. Which usually gets the free speech warriors to go into a tizzy but isn't this time for reasons. Maybe if it was a localized weeb game?

altnameJag:

nomotog:

altnameJag:
So, due to consumer feedback, a product was changed, even though the people who reviewed it didn't think it was a problem? Am I parsing that correctly?

So, business as usual then. Just waiting for the gaggle of ethical posters to chime in about "artistic integrity" or "self-censorship" or something, despite the fact that it was clearly the artist's sole decision to make.

I know one review had a problem with it. https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/01/17/ladykiller-in-a-bind-review/ That segment was an issue from the start. At first you didn't have the option to skip or know what was going to happen. That was patched in and now it is being patched again. So when you think about it's the second or third time the game was "censored". Quotation marks because I don't really buy the idea of self censorship as a thing.

Fair enough. Lady Killer in a Bind isn't my jam, so I didn't really look into it.

I was just noting that the dev's post was a bog standard "people didn't like it for reasons" post that I've seen a dozen times before. Which usually gets the free speech warriors to go into a tizzy but isn't this time for reasons. Maybe if it was a localized weeb game?

They don't like the game. The free speech warriors don't fight for free speech. They use use the ideal as a blunt object to hit people with. (Honestly lot of this debate is just about what people like and how they try to cloak that in something else.)

nomotog:
They don't like the game. The free speech warriors don't fight for free speech. They use use the ideal as a blunt object to hit people with. (Honestly lot of this debate is just about what people like and how they try to cloak that in something else.)

Oh, so it's entirely different to the "sexist games causing serious harm to muh womynz!" discussion then?

Nah, just because a marginally attended thread in the sub-basement of this site isn't filled to the brim with people wanting to fight the good fight for someone who's not going to appreciate it doesn't invalidate those concerns. But hey, at least Polygon showed up promptly for the cause: https://archive.is/rixwl

Some real food for thought here:

A variety of submissive fantasies are on offer in Ladykiller in a Bind. Pinpointing this one as being undeserving of even existing, as if putting it behind content warnings and making it skippable weren't enough, is completely unfair.

"There's a voice in my head always asking how people are going to use this to tear me down whenever I write something objectionable - not just tearing down my art, but my worth as a human," says Arden Ripley, writer of Date or Die.

But in a game full of horny teenagers who ruthlessly manipulate each other, was this sex scene so out of line that amending the content warnings wasn't enough?

[Content warnings] warn - the function is right there in the name. The onus is then on the player to decide if they're ready to deal with that content or not. The answer might be "someday," or it might be "never." The answer is not, "never, and therefore this story should not exist."

For some people, a fun and sexy experience did include that scene, and not allowing it to exist at all isn't the right answer.

So far so good. But of course, there's a fundamental caveat:

But if the only stories we're allowed to write are so antiseptic, affirmational and toothless that they can't explore actual fantasies that queer women have, even if they are problematic, then we are failing.

Uh, OK, got it. "Queer women" get to have one standard for their "fun and sexy" erotic content, while lesser beings like, say, "straight men" need to be castigated over and over for their filthy perversions. I think the word for this is simply "heterophobia". In Current Year, no less.

Incidentally, this article was coauthored by Merritt Kopas (who goes by merritt k, since lowercase is so much moar artistic), a fellow "indie" scenester of Love's. Fancy that, maybe the next time there's an uproar over a game exploring (in however a limited way) "actual fantasies straight men have", they'll ask a friend of the developer to contribute on an editorial defending said game.

Do you actually read articles you post, or do you just skim them to quote-mine?

Edit: Bonus points for getting to "straight men are still the victims here" though.

altnameJag:
Do you actually read articles you post, or do you just skim them to quote-mine?

Edit: Bonus points for getting to "straight men are still the victims here" though.

What an odd question. Maybe I write them and shill my own work?

Thanks for the bonus points. You can have some too for getting to normalizing the double standard as if it was somehow "socially just" to uphold. We like a boosting partnership, brah.

Meta analysis of an analysis: while this Polygon article, presented here without an archive link because preventing a website it's minuscule ad revenue despite consuming its content is so 2014, is arguing that said coercive/corrective rape scene should have stayed in the game, what it's not doing is laying the blame on it's removal squarely on the shoulders of "moral prudes" or "thin-skinned snowflakes", as so many of its contemporaries do. Indeed, it even empathizes with the people who objected to the content being there.

For example, the rest of the paragraph that shows up before Nils' third quote:

For marginalized creators, there is another layer: They know what it's like to be misrepresented or let down down by games. No one wants to make someone else feel that way. Christine Love has every right to make her own decisions to remove whatever content she wants from Ladykiller in a Bind.

Also not appearing in the Polygon article: calls for the removed content to be reinstated. Because presumably, the two writers acknowledge that one group of fans isn't necessarily more important than another. It even goes so far as to acknowledge that the people objecting to that scene have a point:

For some players, the idea of being forced into a sexual situation with a man went beyond kink and into deeply uncomfortable territory. In real life, belief that a lesbian could be turned (or just turned on) by sexual assault endangers lives. Some players were surprised to come across it, in a game that is mostly defined by same-sex couplings. Some reviews noted that the scene was uncomfortable.

It's a call for the audience to be better...or at least a little more flexible. It doesn't call for the ignoring of one demographic to satiate another, it doesn't lambaste the "wrong" side...

It's just advocating.

What, so Polygon is not only not condemning the lack of artistic integrity and willingness to stand by their vision of a buddy-buddy of one (or several) of its writers', it is also not calling its audience "entitled" or worse, as per their usual, because of who the target demographic for the game in question is perceived to be?

This is a shocking development. Shocking, I tell you.

I don't know if you have ever created something, but visions change. Sometimes, what might have seemed like a good idea at first, turns out to be a bad one in hindsight. If a creator is fortunate, this happens before whatever they made is shared with the public. If the creator is less fortunate, stuff like this happens. However, it's not as if an artist's vision becomes set in stone once other people have seen their creation.

altnameJag:
So, due to consumer feedback, a product was changed, even though the people who reviewed it didn't think it was a problem? Am I parsing that correctly?

So, business as usual then. Just waiting for the gaggle of ethical posters to chime in about "artistic integrity" or "self-censorship" or something, despite the fact that it was clearly the artist's sole decision to make.

Was it? By that I mean was it the artist's unfettered choice to make, or were they under the usual cavalcade of insults, not-quite-threats, and outright threats that usually accompanies this cohort seeing something that offends them?

I'd say I was surprised they'd do the usual to a LGBTetc woman, but when you do something they disagree with you forfeit your position on the progressive stack.

Schadrach:

altnameJag:
So, due to consumer feedback, a product was changed, even though the people who reviewed it didn't think it was a problem? Am I parsing that correctly?

So, business as usual then. Just waiting for the gaggle of ethical posters to chime in about "artistic integrity" or "self-censorship" or something, despite the fact that it was clearly the artist's sole decision to make.

Was it? By that I mean was it the artist's unfettered choice to make, or were they under the usual cavalcade of insults, not-quite-threats, and outright threats that usually accompanies this cohort seeing something that offends them?

I'd say I was surprised they'd do the usual to a LGBTetc woman, but when you do something they disagree with you forfeit your position on the progressive stack.

Well you tell us? Was there a cascade of harassment, or are you just making something up?

nomotog:
Well you tell us? Was there a cascade of harassment, or are you just making something up?

Well, the Dev herself mentions "strong player feedback". It's hard to tell without her going into any specifics, but then, as we've all been made helpfully aware by a certain United Nations invited speaker, "you suck" qualifies as harassment, so... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that yes, there probably was.

Ogoid:

nomotog:
Well you tell us? Was there a cascade of harassment, or are you just making something up?

Well, the Dev herself mentions "strong player feedback". It's hard to tell without her going into any specifics, but then, as we've all been made helpfully aware by a certain United Nations invited speaker, "you suck" qualifies as harassment, so... I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that yes, there probably was.

So to clarify, you're making an assumption with a complete lack of evidence to get your hate boner on?

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