I say old chap:

I've heard the caster supremacy argument, and I've seen some ridiculous power-gaming wizards. In games I've been in though, it hasn't really surfaced. Spellcasters have a lot of power, but there are plenty of ways and techniques to deal with them. Grapple, shoot to death with arrows, stealth kill, berserk rush, trip and chop up.

The problem is that in 3.5 especially, high level casters get access to spells that end encounters. Why bother chipping away at an enemy's hit points (which scale with level better than their saves) when you can cast a Save or Die or Save or Suck effect on them? Plane Shifts can end encounters, Fly can skip encounters, metamagic feats can blow over saves, Scribe Scroll can guarantee you're never without a key game-changer, etc. Hell, even at low levels, Color Spray and Sleep can do so much more than a Power Attack ever could.

In older editions there was the assumption that you were going to be ruling kingdoms or domains at higher levels, and low-level wizards were so fragile and gained experience so slowly that it was a calculated risk, but 3.0, despite MANY improvements (I don't hate the system), took away a lot of this without really compensating, so once you got past level 6 it was really obvious who was on top.

And the feat system wasn't really great compensation for fighters, since everybody could access them so there was no point not taking a class that also had some spell abilities. Not to mention all the "System Mastery" traps they built in because they briefly thought it was a good idea to punish people for not planning 20 levels in advance.

4e went a long way towards balancing the system and still enabling a wide variety of character concepts- wider, even, you could have Martial leaders like the Warlord, arcane healers, divine assassins, etc. The ability to reskin things easily and improv on the fly made it a much more accessible and streamlined system, and I hope they don't go back to a lot of cruft just for nostalgia's sake.

Bleh, I say. Bleh.

Evan Waters:

I say old chap:

I've heard the caster supremacy argument, and I've seen some ridiculous power-gaming wizards. In games I've been in though, it hasn't really surfaced. Spellcasters have a lot of power, but there are plenty of ways and techniques to deal with them. Grapple, shoot to death with arrows, stealth kill, berserk rush, trip and chop up.

The problem is that in 3.5 especially, high level casters get access to spells that end encounters. Why bother chipping away at an enemy's hit points (which scale with level better than their saves) when you can cast a Save or Die or Save or Suck effect on them? Plane Shifts can end encounters, Fly can skip encounters, metamagic feats can blow over saves, Scribe Scroll can guarantee you're never without a key game-changer, etc. Hell, even at low levels, Color Spray and Sleep can do so much more than a Power Attack ever could.

In older editions there was the assumption that you were going to be ruling kingdoms or domains at higher levels, and low-level wizards were so fragile and gained experience so slowly that it was a calculated risk, but 3.0, despite MANY improvements (I don't hate the system), took away a lot of this without really compensating, so once you got past level 6 it was really obvious who was on top.

And the feat system wasn't really great compensation for fighters, since everybody could access them so there was no point not taking a class that also had some spell abilities. Not to mention all the "System Mastery" traps they built in because they briefly thought it was a good idea to punish people for not planning 20 levels in advance.

4e went a long way towards balancing the system and still enabling a wide variety of character concepts- wider, even, you could have Martial leaders like the Warlord, arcane healers, divine assassins, etc. The ability to reskin things easily and improv on the fly made it a much more accessible and streamlined system, and I hope they don't go back to a lot of cruft just for nostalgia's sake.

I can certainly get all of that, but what happens when they save? I don't run 20 level games, but I have run games from levels 1-15, with most time being spent around 8-9. Spellcasters can throw out some great spells, but if the opponent saves or if their SR shuts the spell down completely they can feel really weak in comparison to other players. I've seen frustrated players of clerics, wizards and psions.

Now pathfinder sure gets crunchy and something that really sticks out is that saves and SR goes up high and quickly in that version of dnd. Some of those spell resistance numbers, wow. If saves are passed spellcasters, for a round, look really stupid. They also have achieved little or no effect. Then the others strive forward and can put the most powerful classes to shame.

If we are talking around level 6, a barb, ranger or greatsword fighter can do more damage than a spellcaster. The spellcaster can spread the damage round, but can't crit like a greataxe or longbow. Damage isn't everything for sure, but non spellcasters if they stay up, can have much better damage across the rounds too. Keep the arrows flying, the axes and polearms swinging. Wizards can indeed create scrolls, but then they do have to draw them out and cast from there, and in my experience, spellcasters mainly go for enchantments and stat boosting items instead of having a really nice repertoire of scrolls.

I can't comment much on 4th ed. I've read some of the books, listened to dms, but it isn't for me. 3.5 still gives me what I want, but I am always adding new homebrew rules and taking some out to experiment with more changes. For instance, I add more feats and use a skill system a little closer to pathfinder.

I say old chap:
I don't run 20 level games, but I have run games from levels 1-15, with most time being spent around 8-9.

"Well there's your problem." 8-9 are precisely the levels the game is most balanced at (maybe a little earlier). Prior to that casters are a bit worse and afterwards they become significantly better. By fifteen there should be a very noticeable difference, but by then you would be wrapping up.

OT- I don't really like heroic fantasy that much. Part of the reason I want to play 4th, though my group refuses, is that it is much easier to play through the epic levels, which always seemed more fun to me. Maybe I should look for Exalted books. I heard that game is pretty fun. If anyone knows any games that are epic level as a default I'd love to know.

JesterRaiin:

upgray3dd:
Does anyone have any recommendations for a game with a lot simpler setup than DnD?

I take it we're talking about fantasy setting, right ?

No, we should make him play Paranoia.
Everybody loves Paranoia.
Not loving it is treason!

JesterRaiin:

(...)we can teach DMs(...)

Oh for f*cks sake, stop trying to teach us how to play RPGs. We know it already, some of us are in business longer than half of your staff. How about giving us something to play with instead ? How about official campaigns and adventures that are something better than sets of tactical encounters?

>:|

The problem is that not everyone knows how to play RPGs. I take part in Encounters campaigns (among more traditional campaigns), and there is a pretty clear divide between veterans like you (multiple editions, experience DMing, good at on-the-fly roleplaying) and new players (usually only 4E, never DMed, not great roleplayers). It then pans out that there are plenty of veterans who can and do DM, while the new players are scared off by the amount of experience they think they need to have (for instance, the players know the rules better than they do, so they call out mistakes frequently).

They want to try and convince these newer players to become DMs, because that's the only way to ensure that D&D continues after the old guard retire or die off. Therefore, they are focusing most on trying to educate this new group and draw them in, while they trust that veterans like you know how to take campaigns and adventures from the back catalogue and adapt them to fit your needs. It kinda gives the shaft to the most loyal customers, but it's makes business sense.

I say old chap:

I can certainly get all of that, but what happens when they save? I don't run 20 level games, but I have run games from levels 1-15, with most time being spent around 8-9. Spellcasters can throw out some great spells, but if the opponent saves or if their SR shuts the spell down completely they can feel really weak in comparison to other players. I've seen frustrated players of clerics, wizards and psions.

But the casters get so many opportunities, and while you may not encounter many scroll-users in your games, it's an easy exploit. SR helps, but it's a band-aid on a problem created by the Save or Suck spells being in the game to start with.

3quency:

JesterRaiin:

upgray3dd:
Does anyone have any recommendations for a game with a lot simpler setup than DnD?

I take it we're talking about fantasy setting, right ?

No, we should make him play Paranoia.
Everybody loves Paranoia.
Not loving it is treason!

Thunderous Cacophony:
The problem is that not everyone knows how to play RPGs. I take part in Encounters campaigns (among more traditional campaigns), and there is a pretty clear divide between veterans like you (multiple editions, experience DMing, good at on-the-fly roleplaying) and new players (usually only 4E, never DMed, not great roleplayers). It then pans out that there are plenty of veterans who can and do DM, while the new players are scared off by the amount of experience they think they need to have (for instance, the players know the rules better than they do, so they call out mistakes frequently).

They want to try and convince these newer players to become DMs, because that's the only way to ensure that D&D continues after the old guard retire or die off. Therefore, they are focusing most on trying to educate this new group and draw them in, while they trust that veterans like you know how to take campaigns and adventures from the back catalogue and adapt them to fit your needs. It kinda gives the shaft to the most loyal customers, but it's makes business sense.

You're right fellow gamer, but there's a little "but". ;]
No amount of sourcebooks and rules covering every possible situation will make good DM. WOTC fail to understand that you can't make DM out of every average Joe. Those willing to take mantle need only one thing from authors : inspiration. It's no coincidence that Pathfinder is considered far more better system than DnD. ;]

I predict they bring out 6th edition 2 years from 5th edition. Why the hell do we need all these new editions? There was a huge gap between 1st and 2nd and then Wizard's 3rd edition.

All these successive editions just makes us learn a whole bunch of unnecessary rule changes for Wizard's profit. My friends and I have just given up, at this point we're just going to play 3rd edition (ok, Pathfinder) until our wives force us to stop (assuming that we all get married at some point, only 1 so far).

Evan Waters:

I say old chap:

I can certainly get all of that, but what happens when they save? I don't run 20 level games, but I have run games from levels 1-15, with most time being spent around 8-9. Spellcasters can throw out some great spells, but if the opponent saves or if their SR shuts the spell down completely they can feel really weak in comparison to other players. I've seen frustrated players of clerics, wizards and psions.

But the casters get so many opportunities, and while you may not encounter many scroll-users in your games, it's an easy exploit. SR helps, but it's a band-aid on a problem created by the Save or Suck spells being in the game to start with.

I don't know, they get really stuffed with by a number of simple problems. Gloom and darkness can shut down the long or even medium range of spells. You can't even see 100ft through every dense forest or jungle. Something forgotten about range too.

Spellcasters do really well in temperate zones and open spaces, but harsh environments and the need to get 8 hours undisturbed sleep to recoup spells can be such a bummer if the environments fights those wishes.

You can hold, move and break line of sight. Hold and go invisible. There are so many ways to stuff with their spellcasting. I found the 3.5 ninja with invis and ethereal to be a good counter to spellcasters.