CliffyB: Epic Must "Drag" the Industry Into the Next Generation

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Dexter111:

Saulkar:

Irridium:
And... how do they plan on keeping game budgets from skyrocketing out of control?

I think we should solve that problem before we tackle making games look even more graphically advanced.

This is how. The vast majority of a time a high poly, cinematic quality model is made first (some vehicles and buildings usually the exceptions) which is then baked onto a low poly mesh (which takes time to build in its own right) to create the normal map. With more advanced game engines and hardware you completely cut out the low poly mesh and constraints and in turn save time there. Additionally higher resolution textures are much more easier to make due to a lack of any constraints (speaking from experience here)

and game engines are more than capable of scaling their resolution. Just because it is higher resolution does not mean that the detail is anymore difficult to add. There are deffinitely exceptions to this but not that many.

Overall with more powerful hardware you are limited by fewer constraints and in turn can work more easily. Once again there are easily found exceptions but overall it would make many aspects of game design quicker. The most notable exception being level design.

Oh look, someone with a clue saying something :P

Every time someone says something stupid like "do we need a new generation SO SOON" in threads like these AFTER 8-9 YEARS I want to faceplant my head against a wall.

Level design is also getting easier with middleware progressing and being licensed together with big engines like Unreal or CryEngine etc.
Things like SpeedTree make plant development easier, Enlighten makes light source placement and rendering a lot easier etc.
There's middleware and APIs for UI development, animation, lip-synching, AI routines etc. etc. etc. being developed making a lot of the otherwise arduous tasks a lot easier to do and being developed upon.

yup this.

sure the dude can be a bit of a hot headed douche, but i welcome a damn new engine, especially the unreal one; i can't wait to see some of the games that would come out with it.

drag it into ....

right ....

this from the guy that thinks Japaneses games need multi-player, when there's no place for it, OR, throw a tantrum cause his generic shooter only got an 8 of 10.

how about we just not post anything this fratboy says. cause he clearly has no fucking idea what he's talking about

Harker067:

Buretsu:

Freechoice:

Source?

http://gamasutra.com/view/feature/170144/what_if_cliff_ran_the_world.php?page=2

Thanks Buretsu. I should have linked to the source in my original post. In my defense you can find the source in 10s by copy pasting a chunk of my quote into google. Google is your friend people :P.

Honestly, what he's saying isn't that bad. If it's handled well, it could make a game much more dynamic. Once you've been through Amnesia once, it gets progressively less scary because you know where the monsters are, where the scares are and what is going to happen. Having an experience that changes every time would be the shit and add tremendously to the game's replay value.

And if people actually read what he said, they'd stop giving themselves rectal exams with their heads and realize he's saying that you don't tack on the multiplayer as an afterthought, but rather make it a part of the production from the start. Thus you don't waste time on making two separate things on their own. Instead, you make a big thing and then section stuff from it so that multi can influence single and single can influence multi. This is all assuming it's positive, but it would be a good step toward innovating shit.

Hey, Cliffster, does this new super duper engine keep any room left over for, you know, colors?

Well, I hope he knows what he is doing. It would be nice to have the Unreal Engine updated so it can better the gaming industry as a whole.

Everyone remember when that game Minecraft failed miserably because its graphics were awful? Thank god there's finally someone willing to give the history of the industry a hard look and expertly pick out the one shortcoming of video gaming today: bad graphics.

hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Dexter111:
Oh look, someone with a clue saying something :P

I am not sure if you are sarcastic or not. Please do not take this the wrong way.

CAPTCHA: charm offensive - Relevant?

How about more substance? How about innovative, hell, INVENTIVE mechanics that will change what is expected from a game? Oh wait, it's easier to push a ton of tech demos. Nevermind, carry on.

Wow,its suprising that a guy i didnt care about(exept for making Gears of War, a game that bored me out of my skull),managed to make me want to kick him in the jewels,with only one statement.Its kind of fascinating ,you know? Why not make games stream images directly into the brain, instead of a monitor? If you want to jump high, you might as well jump to the moon.

Captcha:Paint it Red,is that a sugestion? I think captcha is going full satan on me...

Sis:
Hey, Cliffster, does this new super duper engine keep any room left over for, you know, colors?

Fuck colours, we need more grit, and brownscale.

more grit!

I seem to recall a period in the comic book world back in the early 90's where comic books started selling like hotcakes. The biggest craze back then were whomever the hottest artist was at the moment, and whatever biggest gimmick they could come up with.. IE chromium covers, multiple different covers for the same issue, etc. etc. They forgot what made comic books great... THE STORY. The comic book industry imploded, and almost went under.

There is a lesson to be learned there, that some gaming devs should really pay alot of attention to...

All flash, and no substance will not support a gaming future. Not a worthwhile one, at least.

Freechoice:

Honestly, what he's saying isn't that bad. If it's handled well, it could make a game much more dynamic. Once you've been through Amnesia once, it gets progressively less scary because you know where the monsters are, where the scares are and what is going to happen. Having an experience that changes every time would be the shit and add tremendously to the game's replay value.

And if people actually read what he said, they'd stop giving themselves rectal exams with their heads and realize he's saying that you don't tack on the multiplayer as an afterthought, but rather make it a part of the production from the start. Thus you don't waste time on making two separate things on their own. Instead, you make a big thing and then section stuff from it so that multi can influence single and single can influence multi. This is all assuming it's positive, but it would be a good step toward innovating shit.

The dude is right about the multiplayer thing. Vanquish should have had multiplayer. There's really no reason why it shouldn't have (outside of something like logistics or money). It adds tremendous value to those who play it.

Honestly, I think people just like to bitch because it's the guy who made Gears of War. Epic doesn't just make that one game, they do the Unreal engine, and that's a big deal. I mean look at the list of games which use this engine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

it's a big deal.

Daystar Clarion:

Sis:
Hey, Cliffster, does this new super duper engine keep any room left over for, you know, colors?

Fuck colours, we need more grit, and brownscale.

more grit!

Yes, because the only games that use the unreal engine are Gears of War. Please.

animehermit:

Daystar Clarion:

Sis:
Hey, Cliffster, does this new super duper engine keep any room left over for, you know, colors?

Fuck colours, we need more grit, and brownscale.

more grit!

Yes, because the only games that use the unreal engine are Gears of War. Please.

> Doesn't recognise sarcasm, then proceeds to use sarcasm.

Hilarious :D

Daystar Clarion:

animehermit:

Daystar Clarion:

Fuck colours, we need more grit, and brownscale.

more grit!

Yes, because the only games that use the unreal engine are Gears of War. Please.

> Doesn't recognise sarcasm, then proceeds to use sarcasm.

Hilarious :D

> Trys to greentext

Hilarious.

Lunar Templar:
drag it into ....

right ....

this from the guy that thinks Japaneses games need multi-player, when there's no place for it, OR, throw a tantrum cause his generic shooter only got an 8 of 10.

how about we just not post anything this fratboy says. cause he clearly has no fucking idea what he's talking about

I just said that an hour ago. On this topic in fact.

animehermit:

Daystar Clarion:

animehermit:

Yes, because the only games that use the unreal engine are Gears of War. Please.

> Doesn't recognise sarcasm, then proceeds to use sarcasm.

Hilarious :D

> Trys to greentext

Hilarious.

I have no idea what greentexting is :D

CliffyB, a guy who made a colorful shooter with countless variety and turned it into brown and no variety.
Yes CLiffy, tell me what I want you out of touch fuck.
I fucking hate you.

RaikuFA:

Lunar Templar:
drag it into ....

right ....

this from the guy that thinks Japaneses games need multi-player, when there's no place for it, OR, throw a tantrum cause his generic shooter only got an 8 of 10.

how about we just not post anything this fratboy says. cause he clearly has no fucking idea what he's talking about

I just said that an hour ago. On this topic in fact.

i was thinking about throwing 'more like drag it down' in, though i do wish I'd have added the bit about him defending 'on disk DLC as a necessary evil' but i didn't think a that till just now.

Daystar Clarion:

animehermit:

Daystar Clarion:

> Doesn't recognise sarcasm, then proceeds to use sarcasm.

Hilarious :D

> Trys to greentext

Hilarious.

I have no idea what greentexting is :D

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greentext

There ya go!

It's basically the thing you did with the words and the arrows and stuff...

OT: While I agree that we should be improving in other areas such as writing, controls, game design etc.
I would be a liar if I said that I didn't want a game that looked like


the whole way through.

Don't hate me... I just like pretty things, that's all.

DVS BSTrD:
It's not MUST it's want to. And why do we need another generation so soon anyway?

Because if you don't change the hardware for something long enough, technology and ambitions go higher but are capped because of the hardware their using.

-------------------------------------------

In the news, Cliffy B. Says something completely ill informed, stupid and worthless of a retarded, handicap from the waist-down baby. Other news is that a army of aliens will not, infact be visiting, so shut up about it.

Aprilgold:

DVS BSTrD:
It's not MUST it's want to. And why do we need another generation so soon anyway?

Because if you don't change the hardware for something long enough, technology and ambitions go higher but are capped because of the hardware their using.

But HAVE they capped it? It doesn't seem like we're close enough to justify another jump.

animehermit:

The dude is right about the multiplayer thing. Vanquish should have had multiplayer. There's really no reason why it shouldn't have (outside of something like logistics or money). It adds tremendous value to those who play it.

Erm, what? Half the fun with Vanquish came from using the bullet-time mechanic, a mechanic which is incredibly difficult to effectively implement in multiplayer. After all, how on earth can you slow down time if the rest of your team carries on at normal pace?

Just because a game has shooting, that doesn't mean it needs multiplayer. If developers can think of a novel, interesting way to integrate it into the game, like Ubisoft did with the Splinter Cell series, then fair enough. But developers aren't obligated to give you multiplayer, and there's nothing wrong with Japanese developers choosing to focus more on single player.

OT: I can see what Cliffy's saying, and agree to a certain extent. The games industry could definitely do with some new tech. However, I do think he's got his priorities wrong. We don't need graphics to be pushed to Avatar levels. We do that, we simply run into the same problems we've got now, ie- very pretty games being limited to very restricted, linear design.

What we need is improved memory and CPU technology that allows for larger levels, more complicated AI routines, more animations, etc. Right now, the focus on better graphics has led to drastic cut-backs in other areas of game design. Hopefully, a new generation will allow developers to open up their games again, and let gamers explore outside of the linear levels we've been restricted to.

Daystar Clarion:
Why do I always feel like punching a badger every time CliffyB opens his mouth?

Because if you looks at just the right angle you'll see Cliffy B IS a badger.

Seriously though, this pisses me off. UE3 is by far one of the worst looking engines out there.

Daystar Clarion:
Why do I always feel like punching a badger every time CliffyB opens his mouth?

Because the badger must be stunned in order for you to stuff it into CliffyB's said mouth. They squirm too much when fully conscious, makes it hard to get a good seal.

Development cost will be the same as the engine will be licensed at the same price with better tools for developing with it. This tech is aimed at the new gen of consoles so there will absolutely no problem with having hardware that will run it. This is how the industry has always progressed. Nothing new here. After years of stagnation we are finally getting some progress. I cant wait. I might actually need to consider spending a little money on my 3 year old PC which can still play anything I throw at it. For now I know it has at least another year before the next Xbox comes out and developers start pushing PC tech again.

Cliffy B: setting new definitions of "Arrogant Ass" since 2006.

This guy makes me look humble.

Every time someone talks about rendering Avatar in real time I just have to point and laugh. Yes, you're really going to be able to render Avatar, a film that took 40 000 processing cores, and each frame took about 30 hours to render.

I'm sorry, but I have to call bullshit. You will never have realtime film level CG in a video game.

Then again, I really shouldn't be surprised when CliffyB spouts off bullshit anymore.

Well, fortunately Cliffy B would never overstate his case.

No thank you. I happy with what we have here. In my eyes, the more money people spend on tech, the less daring they are with gameplay and story.

Amnestic:
I'd just like to remind people that this is the same person who thought that Fatal Frame - a horror game - needed a multiplayer aspect.

We can handle the next generation just fine without him.

Say what you like about him, but Epic has been ahead of the game on graphics more times than I can count.

Good lord, it's like Epic are trying to be a parody of everything that's wrong with the gaming industry.

They had their time, now they need to either stop being insane or just go away.

I want games that are actually good games, not just pretty, dammit! I think games need to stop trying to be ultra-photorealistic and start focusing on what makes good gameplay and telling a story using the whole medium, not just cutscenes!

This generation of gaming has been a disgrace, and next generation is looking up to be more of the same if not worse so far...

Freechoice:

Amnestic:
I'd just like to remind people that this is the same person who thought that Fatal Frame - a horror game - needed a multiplayer aspect.

We can handle the next generation just fine without him.

What, like co-op? Wasn't there twin sisters or something like that? It's not like he said it needed team deathmatch or something.

And considering half of anything is on Unreal, I don't think it's implausible.

How To Ruin Horror 101: Have a partner in Co-Op.

Dexter111:

Saulkar:

Irridium:
And... how do they plan on keeping game budgets from skyrocketing out of control?

I think we should solve that problem before we tackle making games look even more graphically advanced.

This is how. The vast majority of a time a high poly, cinematic quality model is made first (some vehicles and buildings usually the exceptions) which is then baked onto a low poly mesh (which takes time to build in its own right) to create the normal map. With more advanced game engines and hardware you completely cut out the low poly mesh and constraints and in turn save time there. Additionally higher resolution textures are much more easier to make due to a lack of any constraints (speaking from experience here)

and game engines are more than capable of scaling their resolution. Just because it is higher resolution does not mean that the detail is anymore difficult to add. There are deffinitely exceptions to this but not that many.

Overall with more powerful hardware you are limited by fewer constraints and in turn can work more easily. Once again there are easily found exceptions but overall it would make many aspects of game design quicker. The most notable exception being level design.

Oh look, someone with a clue saying something :P

Every time someone says something stupid like "do we need a new generation SO SOON" in threads like these AFTER 8-9 YEARS I want to faceplant my head against a wall.

Level design is also getting easier with middleware progressing and being licensed together with big engines like Unreal or CryEngine etc.
Things like SpeedTree make plant development easier, Enlighten makes light source placement and rendering a lot easier etc.
There's middleware and APIs for UI development, animation, lip-synching, AI routines etc. etc. etc. being developed making a lot of the otherwise arduous tasks a lot easier to do and being developed upon.

We'll see. For each console generation, as the tech became better the cost to make games rose and rose. Hopefully it won't happen again, but I'm still a bit skeptical.

If costs don't rise, hopefully then developers can put more money into hiring decent writers. Because story and writing is an area games seriously need improvement in.

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