Blizzard Unveils Diablo III "Paragon System"

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Boudica:
People leave in droves, complaining about pointless grind and end-game content.

Solution: make the treadmill longer!

Fucking genius.

You've already posted in this thread three times saying the same thing pretty much. Why are you so adamant on getting your point across? We get it, you don't like grinds.

Anyways, more power to D3 players I guess. I'm not a fan of diablo grinds but running the same WoW raids every week seems to be my cup of tea for some reason.

DugMachine:

Boudica:
People leave in droves, complaining about pointless grind and end-game content.

Solution: make the treadmill longer!

Fucking genius.

You've already posted in this thread three times saying the same thing pretty much. Why are you so adamant on getting your point across? We get it, you don't like grinds.

Anyways, more power to D3 players I guess. I'm not a fan of diablo grinds but running the same WoW raids every week seems to be my cup of tea for some reason.

Are you sure you get it? I can post again.

Boudica:
Are you sure you get it? I can post again.

Hmm one more time for good measure. I totally get it but I don't know about everyone else! :P

DugMachine:

Boudica:
Are you sure you get it? I can post again.

Hmm one more time for good measure. I totally get it but I don't know about everyone else! :P

Pfft. Dumb people. How many times does a gal have to repeat herself, huh. Sheesh.

To all of the "pointless grindfest" haters, good riddance. This is as stated a handful of times in this thread...a Diablo game the essence of grinding distilled into it's purest form, the whole point of the series has been to endlessly grind for better gear/more levels. Blizzard is listening to it's fanbase, not the bandwagoners who only heard how awesome diablo 2 was.

This change is an improvment if there ever was one, and I for one am more excited about the balance changes and the -eventual- phasing of MF/GF on high end loot out(it's in the official post on their page). I only took a break from the game because of the exact problems they are adressing in this patch: balance for characters was borked, I picked a monk(for which inferno progression is effectively poop on a stick); I like using abilities like SSS and WoL; I was grinding act 1 inferno 4 nights a week and coming out with an upgrade or auctionable item maybe once a week, at most; and I overall had felt like I had hit a solid brick wall and I wasn't going to spend money in the ah that I didnt earn in the game.

I'm looking forward to 1.0.4 and can't wait to get back into the game.

Oh silly Diablo, you are so dead to me already >_>

So they basically upped the level cap from 60 to 160, and gave it a new name.

Color me impressed.

so....grinding for the sake of more grinding? hmm...i think this picture is in order

image

poiumty:

Boudica:
Sounds pretty silly.

Will something this shallow and pointless really keep people from leaving or win back the legion of disappointed leavers? Probably not.

No it's not, and yes it will. People have been asking for this for a long time. People aren't leaving because D3 is a bad game, but because of a lack of progression once you hit max level.

or .... a lack of anything to do after finishing the story (no, the extra diff don't count, i mean real content not doing the old stuff again), the nerfs that are just shallow means of forcing people to the AH, cause god forbid some one beat a boss with less then prefect gear -.-

StriderShinryu:
Chrono Trigger is a JRPG from the SNES era that, to my knowledge, is the first major title to have a New Game Plus mode. The difference, as you've stated, is that CT isn't a loot fest ARPG. CT is, at it's core, a JRPG that has 12ish endings, some of which require you to have finished the game at least once to access. Thus, yeah, there really is no real comparison between NG+ in CT and what is basically NG+ in D3. NG+ in CT lets you play through the same game in different ways, actually coming to sometimes radically different endings. NG+ in D3 means you play the whole game over again with exactly the same experience just hoping you get good enough loot drops to keep you moving forward.

Now now, let's be REALLY honest.

CT's multiple endings were not at all from divergent paths, but simply due to when in the narrative you decided to defeat the end boss. That's all. Otherwise, the second playthrough's story is EXACTLY the same, and all the combat is simply a formality because difficulty doesn't change to suit NG+.

D3, on the other hand, actually DOES ratchet up the difficulty, so that the actual process of killing does change. On top of this, your character, unlike CT, will actually acquire new abilities, thus keeping the gameplay varied over time.

Fundamentally, Chrono Trigger's NG+ gimmick is that you get to start powerful enough to take Lavos on and see what-if endings but the gameplay itself is simply an unnecessary timesink. Diablo 3 actually adds depth to the gameplay as you get to higher levels of play.

You're right, they aren't at all different.

Lunar Templar:

poiumty:

Boudica:
Sounds pretty silly.

Will something this shallow and pointless really keep people from leaving or win back the legion of disappointed leavers? Probably not.

No it's not, and yes it will. People have been asking for this for a long time. People aren't leaving because D3 is a bad game, but because of a lack of progression once you hit max level.

or .... a lack of anything to do after finishing the story (no, the extra diff don't count, i mean real content not doing the old stuff again), the nerfs that are just shallow means of forcing people to the AH, cause god forbid some one beat a boss with less then prefect gear -.-

Infinite regression--the game has to be finite. If the game's narrative length is long enough, it's long enough. If people want to play on harder modes, why not?

Besides, the game's only been out for a couple months, isn't the cry for MORE CONTENT a bit premature?

And it's no different in this respect than Diablo 2. Sure, D2 had an expansion pack, but that wasn't right away, was it? Of course not.

The bottom line is... it's an option for people who like that style of play. Some people DO, you know. For those who don't... don't do it. If you just want to play d3 for the main story, and play many alts, go right ahead. No one has any right to tell you to stop having fun the way you like.

And if you happen to be the sort that likes putting in work to get the perfect set of gear, and that's where you get a sense of accomplishment... who is ANYONE to call them stupid for that?

The ONLY fail here are jerks who try to tell others that they're stupid for enjoying a playstyle that the jerk doesn't want to understand. All the cries of 'Skinner Box' and not a single bit of empathy or attempt to understand why these people might actually have a legitimate reason for enjoying it.

For some, they like to see how fast they can accomplish a task. They started off moving slowly and cautiously but eventually they get to a point where they're steamrolling, and they want to see how fast they CAN steamroll. This is -legitimate fun.- Others want to see how high they can get their stats as an exercise in rediculousness. It's okay to do this at the D&D table but when they do it in Diablo it's suddenly 'stupid'?! Bah! Some people just like the feeling of accomplishment when they manage to put together what they see as a finely tuned machine. Hot-rod affectionados in real life don't get flak for this, but do it in a video game and suddenly you're 'an addict?'

Bah. It's disrespectfully judgemental bullshit and nothing more than that.

Interesting. I suppose this move is likely to make the distinction between people who bought "Diablo 3" and people who bought "this new cool thing" a bit more apparent.

Having not followed the D3 development much from the moment I heard of the always-online thing, tho, can't say much. If the main complaints are "useless grind", putting more grinding in isn't a sound business decision. Oh sure, it's a sound decision to reaffirm the essence of a Diablo game, yeah, but it loses you the "appeal to a wider audience". Now, up to you if you want to have that or not of course. Overdoing it is a bad thing indeed.

Ghonzor:
So they want to fix the reasons everyone left (i.e. terrible, costly grind) with more grind?
I...what?

No. They left because they grinded and shit dropped. Paragon levels increase magic find making people less dependent on auction house.

All I can think of for some dumb reason is...

What if players want to put points into Renegade?

(I apologize in advance for the dumb reference.)

Hammeroj:
For just one moment, I thought actually Blizzard came up with a way to alleviate the problems caused by the idiotic level 60 cap. Turns out they just made two more stats ultimately pointless.

I dunno man, I love every anti-blizz/D3 comment you've made, but this sounds like a step in the right direction to me. Does it fix the game enough for me to want to play it? HELL NO! But does it address (just) one of my many complaints about the game? Yes.

RPGs are fun in part because of their progression. The progression in D3 is laughable, and this addresses some of the reasons why it's so bad.

Lunar Templar:

or .... a lack of anything to do after finishing the story (no, the extra diff don't count, i mean real content not doing the old stuff again), the nerfs that are just shallow means of forcing people to the AH, cause god forbid some one beat a boss with less then prefect gear -.-

If you haven't beaten the higher difficulties yet, know that it's very doable even without AH gear all the way up to Inferno (but not including).

And the extra difficulties are a design choice that not many people disagree with.

Signa:

Hammeroj:
For just one moment, I thought actually Blizzard came up with a way to alleviate the problems caused by the idiotic level 60 cap. Turns out they just made two more stats ultimately pointless.

I dunno man, I love every anti-blizz/D3 comment you've made, but this sounds like a step in the right direction to me. Does it fix the game enough for me to want to play it? HELL NO! But does it address (just) one of my many complaints about the game? Yes.

RPGs are fun in part because of their progression. The progression in D3 is laughable, and this addresses some of the reasons why it's so bad.

Hey, why do I get a compliment the moment you disagree with me? See, I don't think this addresses anything about the game, and does indeed render two item stats ultimately pointless. What once had the slightest tinge of varied approach (do I wear items that are stronger but net less loot, or weaker ones that net more?) is now something that gets washed away with several weeks of farming. This only serves to further shallow the already incredibly shallow gameplay of D3, and this is why I'm against it. With the way they're going with this, they might as well remove those two stats from items entirely, otherwise they're going to be looking at two more fluff stats that clog up the itemization and leave people disappointed about the loot.

I guess if all you (not you specifically) want is see some sort of increasing number as you play, sure, this does address something. But then I'm not one of the people who simply want to watch some sort of experience bar fill up with nothing to show for it.

Also included with this update was a metric boatload of patches, but that doesn't make for exciting news I guess.

DracoSuave:

StriderShinryu:
Chrono Trigger is a JRPG from the SNES era that, to my knowledge, is the first major title to have a New Game Plus mode. The difference, as you've stated, is that CT isn't a loot fest ARPG. CT is, at it's core, a JRPG that has 12ish endings, some of which require you to have finished the game at least once to access. Thus, yeah, there really is no real comparison between NG+ in CT and what is basically NG+ in D3. NG+ in CT lets you play through the same game in different ways, actually coming to sometimes radically different endings. NG+ in D3 means you play the whole game over again with exactly the same experience just hoping you get good enough loot drops to keep you moving forward.

Now now, let's be REALLY honest.

CT's multiple endings were not at all from divergent paths, but simply due to when in the narrative you decided to defeat the end boss. That's all. Otherwise, the second playthrough's story is EXACTLY the same, and all the combat is simply a formality because difficulty doesn't change to suit NG+.

D3, on the other hand, actually DOES ratchet up the difficulty, so that the actual process of killing does change. On top of this, your character, unlike CT, will actually acquire new abilities, thus keeping the gameplay varied over time.

Fundamentally, Chrono Trigger's NG+ gimmick is that you get to start powerful enough to take Lavos on and see what-if endings but the gameplay itself is simply an unnecessary timesink. Diablo 3 actually adds depth to the gameplay as you get to higher levels of play.

You're right, they aren't at all different.

Exactly. In CT the narrativr actually changed depending on when you tackled the final boss. From story aspects to what strategic options were available due to available party members to sections of the game that could be essentially skipped over. It was a different experience. D3 essentially offers graduated experience levels. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not a different experience beyond fighting more tougher enemies with a slightly expanded set of skills. You're still playing through the exact same 4 acts repeatedly with no change to the narrative even as far as the ending goes and no real change in gameplay experience. Once again, there's nothing wrong with that gameplay flow but it's hardly a proper NG+ given what you get in most RPGs with a similar named mode.

I played diablo 3 for over 12 hours just now. Absolutely amazing patch was (1.0.4) released today.

It was my personal elysium of gaming.

Hammeroj:

Signa:

Hammeroj:
For just one moment, I thought actually Blizzard came up with a way to alleviate the problems caused by the idiotic level 60 cap. Turns out they just made two more stats ultimately pointless.

I dunno man, I love every anti-blizz/D3 comment you've made, but this sounds like a step in the right direction to me. Does it fix the game enough for me to want to play it? HELL NO! But does it address (just) one of my many complaints about the game? Yes.

RPGs are fun in part because of their progression. The progression in D3 is laughable, and this addresses some of the reasons why it's so bad.

Hey, why do I get a compliment the moment you disagree with me?

well, you've been negating my reason to post in almost every D3 thread that pops up. No opportunity then.

See, I don't think this addresses anything about the game, and does indeed render two item stats ultimately pointless. What once had the slightest tinge of varied approach (do I wear items that are stronger but net less loot, or weaker ones that net more?) is now something that gets washed away with several weeks of farming. This only serves to further shallow the already incredibly shallow gameplay of D3, and this is why I'm against it. With the way they're going with this, they might as well remove those two stats from items entirely, otherwise they're going to be looking at two more fluff stats that clog up the itemization and leave people disappointed about the loot.

I guess if all you (not you specifically) want is see some sort of increasing number as you play, sure, this does address something. But then I'm not one of the people who simply want to watch some sort of experience bar fill up with nothing to show for it.

Having never played Diablo 3, I can't tell for sure how much this worsens it from that perspective. I can only go by what others have told me and how I thought of it. In D2, MF was an annoying stat (but in a good way), because it meant sacrificing wearing good loot to hope for better loot. It's a tradeoff that I couldn't afford in the later levels. You're right in that it makes the game even less complex (something that endlessly pisses me off), but as my friends describe inferno mode, there doesn't even seem to be the option to attempt wearing MF gear, because you get raped with your best stuff on. Factor in other points I've heard like how Blizz keeps fucking with the item drop rate so you won't ever get the loot you need for inferno, and that MF stats are just randomly tacked onto other loot, so there isn't always a negative tradeoff, I still only see this change as good. It's not like you will be earning MF stats while playing Normal through Hell.

Once again, this isn't something that I'm saying will make me play the game and that all is forgiven. It's just a slight tiptoe in the right direction, because it addresses just a small bit of the broken gameplay. Perhaps it breaks other things too, but I still like the idea that you won't waste time by playing for hours and not finding anything and thus having no progression.

Signa:
Having never played Diablo 3, I can't tell for sure how much this worsens it from that perspective. I can only go by what others have told me and how I thought of it. In D2, MF was an annoying stat (but in a good way), because it meant sacrificing wearing good loot to hope for better loot. It's a tradeoff that I couldn't afford in the later levels. You're right in that it makes the game even less complex (something that endlessly pisses me off), but as my friends describe inferno mode, there doesn't even seem to be the option to attempt wearing MF gear, because you get raped with your best stuff on. Factor in other points I've heard like how Blizz keeps fucking with the item drop rate so you won't ever get the loot you need for inferno, and that MF stats are just randomly tacked onto other loot, so there isn't always a negative tradeoff, I still only see this change as good. It's not like you will be earning MF stats while playing Normal through Hell.

Once again, this isn't something that I'm saying will make me play the game and that all is forgiven. It's just a slight tiptoe in the right direction, because it addresses just a small bit of the broken gameplay. Perhaps it breaks other things too, but I still like the idea that you won't waste time by playing for hours and not finding anything and thus having no progression.

Well, I said my piece on this, let's just clear up a couple of things. Blizzard isn't throttling loot drops, this is something that basically comes out of a misrepresentation of one of Bashiok's posts about the auction house. Blizzard doesn't directly fuck with drops, what they did was simply slash the chance of anything good dropping across the board and right off the bat.

Second, as far as the MF/GF stats are concerned, Normal through Hell those are pretty much irrelevant. I'm not saying they're worthless, just irrelevant. Pointless. There's no real motivation to get the best loot possible because the item level of the loot, along with its average potency, keeps rising and twinking is really something that's better done with simply getting a good red gem and throwing it at your lower level character, if one will even think about twinking in the first place. I am somewhat oversimplifying for the sake of time, and now we're touching on several other issues.

I'm not under the impression that you think all is forgiven, I am simply not willing to call this an improvement. It's an experience bar to fill up, and that's about as much of an actual benefit it is. Apart from that, it comes with some big caveats, those of the itemization clogging and further loss of depth. By the way, either the loss of depth is something that endlessly pisses you off, or you only see this change as good. These are mutually exclusive statements.

Hammeroj:
By the way, either the loss of depth is something that endlessly pisses you off, or you only see this change as good. These are mutually exclusive statements.

Mostly, yes, but I believe some games can become a perfect storm of broken that they become fun. There is also a bit of convenience granted here which I won't underestimate. It's a convenience you have to work for, which I like. I griped about Skyrim having regenerating health at the start of the game, because you didn't have to work for it like in Morrowind. Anyway, I doubt this is one of those cases, but I'm making as much of an effort to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt. I didn't think they'd even go this far to "improve" things. Honestly, I expected them to just leave it alone and hope that people will give them more money.

CardinalPiggles:
This is great, but without new maps and enemies it seems pointless.

If they release an expansion pack I'll most definitely get back into it.

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1375436/diablo_3_players_shouldnt_expect_dlc_expansions_blizzard.html

Sorry to burst your bubble there bucky.

OT: Eh, if it means it won't be as fucking hard to find gear that I can... ahem..

ACTUALLY CONSIDER USING

(I stress this extremely, if you couldn't tell.)

then I'm for it.

poiumty:

Lunar Templar:

or .... a lack of anything to do after finishing the story (no, the extra diff don't count, i mean real content not doing the old stuff again), the nerfs that are just shallow means of forcing people to the AH, cause god forbid some one beat a boss with less then prefect gear -.-

If you haven't beaten the higher difficulties yet, know that it's very doable even without AH gear all the way up to Inferno (but not including).

And the extra difficulties are a design choice that not many people disagree with.

the problem i had with the 'higher diffs' is that they really aren't harder save a few cheap tricks thrown in for the random blue/gold enemy's.

that and i didn't really find the story worth going over again, course, my personal disappointment can be summed up with 'didn't think it'd be all about the numbers' won't make that mistake again

So the answer to the loot grind becoming boring: LEVEL GRINDING!! OF COURSE!

It's clear to me that Blizzard isn't interested in creating fun* games anymore, but creating addictive* games that they can milk for cash.

Frankly, it's sickening.

(*No, these are NOT one in the same. There are great games that are not addictive, and there are addictive games that are not great)

Towowo:

It isn't grinding if you enjoy it, There is a zen like quality to grinding in games like this.
Grind isn't inherently a bad thing you know, just as long as the gameplay itself is enjoyable to play for hours on end.

Great gameplay doesn't need grind to justify it, but grind ALWAYS needs great gameplay to justify it.

StriderShinryu:

DracoSuave:

StriderShinryu:
Chrono Trigger is a JRPG from the SNES era that, to my knowledge, is the first major title to have a New Game Plus mode. The difference, as you've stated, is that CT isn't a loot fest ARPG. CT is, at it's core, a JRPG that has 12ish endings, some of which require you to have finished the game at least once to access. Thus, yeah, there really is no real comparison between NG+ in CT and what is basically NG+ in D3. NG+ in CT lets you play through the same game in different ways, actually coming to sometimes radically different endings. NG+ in D3 means you play the whole game over again with exactly the same experience just hoping you get good enough loot drops to keep you moving forward.

Now now, let's be REALLY honest.

CT's multiple endings were not at all from divergent paths, but simply due to when in the narrative you decided to defeat the end boss. That's all. Otherwise, the second playthrough's story is EXACTLY the same, and all the combat is simply a formality because difficulty doesn't change to suit NG+.

D3, on the other hand, actually DOES ratchet up the difficulty, so that the actual process of killing does change. On top of this, your character, unlike CT, will actually acquire new abilities, thus keeping the gameplay varied over time.

Fundamentally, Chrono Trigger's NG+ gimmick is that you get to start powerful enough to take Lavos on and see what-if endings but the gameplay itself is simply an unnecessary timesink. Diablo 3 actually adds depth to the gameplay as you get to higher levels of play.

You're right, they aren't at all different.

Exactly. In CT the narrativr actually changed depending on when you tackled the final boss. From story aspects to what strategic options were available due to available party members to sections of the game that could be essentially skipped over. It was a different experience. D3 essentially offers graduated experience levels. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not a different experience beyond fighting more tougher enemies with a slightly expanded set of skills. You're still playing through the exact same 4 acts repeatedly with no change to the narrative even as far as the ending goes and no real change in gameplay experience. Once again, there's nothing wrong with that gameplay flow but it's hardly a proper NG+ given what you get in most RPGs with a similar named mode.

So having access to new abilities and skills doesn't change the gameplay? I mean are people beating normal mode at level 60? No, they aren't. Are there different abilities available all the way to leve 60? Of course.

As opposed to the 'depth' of CT in NG+ which involves spamming Luminaire. Sorry, but it Lavos isn't really a difficult boss to beat with the possible exception of the Developer room ending when you only have two characters. Even then it isn't like the strategy 'The bit is the real Lavos' changes at all, and that's all you need to know to beat him.

And you're still playing through the same story, the ONLY difference is when you choose to stop. It's a neat gimmick, but it's hardly like other games with NG+ which actually introduce new game elements or have branching paths to explore.

Diablo is linear. CT is linear. Diablo has a semblance of escalating difficulty to match the higher character levels. CT does not. CT lets you fight the end boss at any time, Diablo does not. But that's hardly 'different narrative' as CT allows you to do this without NG+. You don't even open up extra hard mode dungeons in CT (unless you have the ds remake). It truly is not as different as you claim

TLDR version: Great patch, but too late.

It shows how a simple change can fix a ruined game. By adding paragon levels, new legendaries (that are actually good!), buffing most of the skills and runes that were useless and making the elites less buggy and random, blizz has created exciting endgame.

The game isnt that much different than before, but before patch there were no feeling of progression: just random challenge after challenge. It was fun, but you couldnt keep on with it for a long time since it started to feel rutine. That was the problem with the game: It was fun for 30 min, and then youve had your daily dose. In a cyclic game you need constant progression for its challenges to feel new and different, and thats what they added.

The major problem is that this should have been implemented ON RELEASE! These were really small and simple changes (except for the graphics added to the new legendaries) and for a multi-billion company like blizz-EA its retarded to use 3 months on something 10 programmers can create in a week.

Its good they show they still care about their playerbase, but they also show they dont care as much as they should :D

Atmos Duality:
So the answer to the loot grind becoming boring: LEVEL GRINDING!! OF COURSE!

It's clear to me that Blizzard isn't interested in creating fun* games anymore, but creating addictive* games that they can milk for cash.

Frankly, it's sickening.

(*No, these are NOT one in the same. There are great games that are not addictive, and there are addictive games that are not great)

Towowo:

It isn't grinding if you enjoy it, There is a zen like quality to grinding in games like this.
Grind isn't inherently a bad thing you know, just as long as the gameplay itself is enjoyable to play for hours on end.

Great gameplay doesn't need grind to justify it, but grind ALWAYS needs great gameplay to justify it.

Depends what you enjoy in a game. I enjoy being constantly challenged and discovering new tactics, and random generated elites does that. If you enjoy diverse gameplay, D3 isnt for you.

I enjoyed the game before the patch, and adding a feeling of progression to the challenge is a great bonus.

Bibliotek:

Depends what you enjoy in a game. I enjoy being constantly challenged and discovering new tactics, and random generated elites does that. If you enjoy diverse gameplay, D3 isnt for you.

Short Version: It's not really a matter of diversity, it's just that I enjoy LEGITIMATE challenge, not this artificial difficulty crap D3 throws at you.

Hand wave that away as subjective if it pleases you, but know that I'm not buying it for a second. I don't think it's solely a matter of "liking" or "disliking" D3, but a problem of Blizzard's financial ambitions directly interfering with game design. It's preventing them from providing a fun, mechanically superior game.

I've seen better, and I've certainly played better.
Tangentially: Having seen my friends and family's accounts be compromised because of Blizzard's incompetence, I'm glad I didn't buy Diablo 3.

Atmos Duality:
Tangentially: Having seen my friends and family's accounts be compromised because of Blizzard's incompetence, I'm glad I didn't buy Diablo 3.

Most of the time, it's not Blizzard's fault when an account gets 'hacked'. It's generally a keylogger on the breached person's computer.

Secondly, there was a major security breach, but to simply say 'Oh blizzard's fail' is very simplistic and it doesn't take into account the facts.

Fact 1: The most lucrative form of computer crime existent today is by far without ANY debate, the violation of WoW accounts. Take any other form of computer crime, including hacked accounts for every other game put together, and it doesn't equal the amount of money made through keylogging WoW players.

Fact 2: That means that these criminals can afford to bring on the best to deal with this situation. If you have a multi-billion dollar organized crime syndicate, you can afford to throw money at your business and expect a mighty return.

Fact 3: You don't even have to hire a top-notch cracker to do this job. If you throw enough money out there, at the right person, it becomes an inside job, and creating a backdoor is relatively speaking, a snap.

Fact 4: The international nature of this type of crime makes prosecution and even investigation very difficult. Blizzard Activision has a lot of money, but they don't have Shadowrun Megacorp kinda money to throw at it, and they certainly can't afford to have international black-ops teams to dispense justice.

Blizzard can only do so much against the resources that are allayed against it--and the fact that they DO do what they can with the success they have is evidence enough that they're not buffoons about this.

Remember: All the breaches -except for 1- are all local to the user's computer. Blizzard can't stop that. What do you expect them to do, include an up-to-date of Norton with every subscription?

DracoSuave:
Fact 1: The most lucrative form of computer crime existent today is by far without ANY debate, the violation of WoW accounts.

wut

You're saying hacked accounts for the World of Warcraft video game are more lucrative a computer crime than any other scam, piracy ring, child pornography underground, fraud or identity theft?

If that's a fact like you claim, I want to see some sources and evidence.

Boudica:

DracoSuave:
Fact 1: The most lucrative form of computer crime existent today is by far without ANY debate, the violation of WoW accounts.

wut

You're saying hacked accounts for the World of Warcraft video game are more lucrative a computer crime than any other scam, piracy ring, child pornography underground, fraud or identity theft?

If that's a fact like you claim, I want to see some sources and evidence.

Of those, the one that is the most lucrative is identity theft, estimated at costing its victims 50 million dollars per annum. Now that's cost to the victims, that doesn't necessarily mean the criminals are MAKING 50mill a year. (according to identitytheft.com)

Gold selling in WoW is estimated to be a BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. Even the most conservative estimates put it at over a billion dollars a year. (according to wowgoldfacts.com, a gold seller watchdog site.)

Child Porn... I won't touch that. If given the choice between attacking gold selling and attacking child porn, child porn should get the priority. It's not because of financial loss, however. But it's not really a 'computer crime', in the same sense that stealing from the cash register isn't a computer crime even tho there's a computer involved. It's more of a crime against humanity. But I digress, it's still NOT a billion dollar industry.

Atmos Duality:

Bibliotek:

Depends what you enjoy in a game. I enjoy being constantly challenged and discovering new tactics, and random generated elites does that. If you enjoy diverse gameplay, D3 isnt for you.

Short Version: It's not really a matter of diversity, it's just that I enjoy LEGITIMATE challenge, not this artificial difficulty crap D3 throws at you.

Hand wave that away as subjective if it pleases you, but know that I'm not buying it for a second. I don't think it's solely a matter of "liking" or "disliking" D3, but a problem of Blizzard's financial ambitions directly interfering with game design. It's preventing them from providing a fun, mechanically superior game.

I've seen better, and I've certainly played better.
Tangentially: Having seen my friends and family's accounts be compromised because of Blizzard's incompetence, I'm glad I didn't buy Diablo 3.

Will far from handwave that away, think you misunderstand what kind of person I am :D

You make some very valid points, and I do understand that many dislike this way of entertainment. Its the same feeling people have towards Dark Souls (not that the games can be compared); I see it as the best game ever made, yet others call it shit and give up before first boss.

But games like D3 and Dark Souls is often about creating you own challenges. Using oddball specs and strange tacs and making it work is a hobby of mine, and D3 utilize that to the fullest.

Theres a reason I never go full defensive mode when someone bash D3, and thats because its full of flaws. But this patch fixed some of the major issues, and it will make my friends and me enjoy it even more. Therefore Im happy.

PS: The AH fucked over the players, craving that everyone must learn to play "pretend wall street" to get decent gear. Luckily I enjoy it, but Its fucked to crave that people must play that minigame. Its not what they paid for

DracoSuave:

Most of the time, it's not Blizzard's fault when an account gets 'hacked'. It's generally a keylogger on the breached person's computer.

As it pertains to my situation, I know for a fact that it was Blizzard's fault.

Given this was a fresh install on a new system (I formatted and reinstalled the security personally), and we came back from vacation (net-free) only to find my sister's account was hacked, there was no question that this was on Blizzard's end.

Fact 1: The most lucrative form of computer crime existent today is by far without ANY debate, the violation of WoW accounts. Take any other form of computer crime, including hacked accounts for every other game put together, and it doesn't equal the amount of money made through keylogging WoW players.

I'd need some statistics on that if you're going to call it a fact.
I wouldn't discount the possibility, given that WoW is a multi-billion dollar franchise at his point, and the undisputed king of the MMO market (which itself is the King of Asian Gaming).

This simply establishes that there are criminals who have a high degree of incentive to hack WoW-accounts, which is true. Of course, seeing the direction D3 is going, the same sort of incentive exists there too thanks to the Auction House.

Fact 2: That means that these criminals can afford to bring on the best to deal with this situation. If you have a multi-billion dollar organized crime syndicate, you can afford to throw money at your business and expect a mighty return.

Yes, criminals exist and they are probably funded.

Fact 3: You don't even have to hire a top-notch cracker to do this job. If you throw enough money out there, at the right person, it becomes an inside job, and creating a backdoor is relatively speaking, a snap.

I'll address this later in my post.

Fact 4: The international nature of this type of crime makes prosecution and even investigation very difficult. Blizzard Activision has a lot of money, but they don't have Shadowrun Megacorp kinda money to throw at it, and they certainly can't afford to have international black-ops teams to dispense justice.

This is relevant in terms of eliminating offenders from the equation, but most private security firms focus exclusively on prevention rather than retaliation for that reason.
Unless they're attached to government agency.

Props to you for knowing about Shadowrun. I'm a huge fan of that series.

Blizzard can only do so much against the resources that are allayed against it--and the fact that they DO do what they can with the success they have is evidence enough that they're not buffoons about this.

The level of intrusion they recently received was extreme, and quite unacceptable.
No, I'm not solely blaming Blizzard for the work of criminals, but they do carry half the blame, because the moment they demanded that everyone connect to THEIR system was the moment they took full liability for anything that happens to said system.

Remember: All the breaches -except for 1- are all local to the user's computer. Blizzard can't stop that. What do you expect them to do, include an up-to-date of Norton with every subscription?

I get that keyloggers exist out there, really. I've had clients request that I troubleshoot computers only to find out it was just a keylogger (I'm freelance tech support and repair) and that they didn't want their boss or family to find out they done goofed.

To address Fact 3: How is "An inside job" local to the end user's computer? "Inside Job" to me means relative to the "Inside" of the system. Which means Blizzard's system, since they are the server and the clients are just that: Clients who remotely connect to the system.

Fact 4 is nebulous. An international hacker could attack either Blizzard or their end-users directly (and in fact, both have occurred, quite regularly). The nature of international law makes it difficult/impossible to extradite and prosecute the offenders, but is hardly exclusive to persecuting those who write and distribute keyloggers to end-users (usually via session hijacks or shady websites selling WoW-Gold).

Bibliotek:

Will far from handwave that away, think you misunderstand what kind of person I am :D

You make some very valid points, and I do understand that many dislike this way of entertainment. Its the same feeling people have towards Dark Souls (not that the games can be compared); I see it as the best game ever made, yet others call it shit and give up before first boss.

Difficulty in gameplay primarily comes from three sources:
1) Tests against Player Skill (mechanical, reasoning, strategy)
2) Tests against Character Skill (non-randomized stats)
3) Tests of luck (randomized stat checks)

Dark Souls is an amplified form of 1) primarily. Another extreme example of 1 would be I Wanna Be The Guy.

The best games emphasize 1 while maybe dipping very slightly into 2 and 3.

Diablo 3 is built almost entirely around 3, using 2 as a backdrop to mark progress, and ignoring 1 almost completely (characters are effectively prebuilt, and strategy is minimized).

But games like D3 and Dark Souls is often about creating you own challenges. Using oddball specs and strange tacs and making it work is a hobby of mine, and D3 utilize that to the fullest.

So, variant play basically. I'm a big fan of variant play.
When I see arguments for/against the gameplay in Diablo 3, I'm arguing from the point of how Blizzard intended the game to be played.

Theres a reason I never go full defensive mode when someone bash D3, and thats because its full of flaws. But this patch fixed some of the major issues, and it will make my friends and me enjoy it even more. Therefore Im happy.

Then be happy. If you've found a way to enjoy an otherwise seriously flawed game, all the better for you.

PS: The AH fucked over the players, craving that everyone must learn to play "pretend wall street" to get decent gear. Luckily I enjoy it, but Its fucked to crave that people must play that minigame. Its not what they paid for

Yeah, that's the heart of the matter really. Blizzard has potential for a much better game if they didn't so heavily emphasize the Auction House.

Congratulations, Another step completed on the transition into more horrifically bad Ideas ripped from MMOs gone terribly wrong./eyeroll.

Seriously, this sounds like something out of Everquest circa 2003.

Didnt finish making the game? Just slap on some alternate advancement points and call it a day.

Theres simply not enough shame that needs to be distributed for the travesty blizzard has birthed.

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