Teens Sedate Parents For Net Access

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Mortis Nuncius:
Am I the only one who originally thought the parents would find out through a Facebook status update saying, "Drugged my parents, no internet curfew tonight!! YOLO lol!!" or something of the sort?

No, that's pretty much what popped into my head too.

roushutsu:
So no word on what they were doing on the internet during all of this? Cause that information could easily lead to something more serious or way more lulzy.

I would bet a fair amount of money that Facebook was involved.

See people, it's not videogames that make people evil, it is Facebook.

Kids nowadays surprise me.

I mean, was I a prude when I was a kid and no one told me about it? Or was I just normal and kids nowadays are just crazy?
Even if my parents were dicks who allowed me to use the internet for 5 minutes per day, I would have never thought about drugging them so I could use the computer. Here's a lit of what I would have done instead:

-Gone to the library claiming it was homework
-Gone to a friend's house
-Work out a way to extend my allowed time (Maybe pay part of the bill?
-Offer good grades in return
-Found a new hobby

Besides, I would have thought ahead too. I'd know my parents would eventually wake up after passing out randomly for hours. Then they might suspect me. Then what? I do it again? Was it worth it?
At any rate, I would have never done that. I'm not a dick. Or crazy.

What.

They got pissed off 'cause they weren't able to access the Internet after 10 PM? That's really fucking petty. I really don't want to see what happens when they throw a temper tantrum.

Kopikatsu:

Blablahb:

Milanezi:
I guess now the girls made their point of how MATURE they are and how SAFE it is to let them roam around the internet.

Look at it the other way: Their parents treated them like small children, and it made them act like small children, what a surprise...

You think that an acceptable response to a curfew (And 10PM is very generous) is to drug the authority figure so you have free reign?

10 PM is certainly generous. I handle a couple of development projects along with school work, and by 10 PM, I'm usually playing Planetside or something else on Steam most of the time.

High school here in the States ends around 4 PM, giving a maximum of 6 hours for Internet time. That's way more than enough for a high school student that is not developing software. As a developer, I'm pretty much forced to stick to the Internet as books aren't as helpful in programming than people are lead to believe. I still finish my programming fill before 10 PM, and that's factoring in half an hour to eat.

I honestly cannot fathom why drug your parents for Internet. What happened to politely asking and honesty and all the things that were hammered into us during elementary school?

Belated:

Kopikatsu:
They should face jail time regardless. Drugging someone standing between you and something you want because you can't just wait until the morning is not the mark of a well adjusted individual.

Blablahb:
Look at it the other way: Their parents treated them like small children, and it made them act like small children, what a surprise...

You think that an acceptable response to a curfew (And 10PM is very generous) is to drug the authority figure so you have free reign?

No, it's not an acceptable response. But they shouldn't face jail time. They're minors. A conviction won't teach them anything. It'll only ruin their lives. A criminal record typically makes it nearly impossible to get a job and restricts a few of your rights. I really don't understand people who think it's okay to treat minors with the same harshness as adults in the legal system, and I have nothing but contempt for the "tough on crime" attitude. I don't even care if they murdered someone. They're minors. Do you know what "minors" means? It means "stupid". Their brains are physically incapable of comprehending the severity of their actions because they're not fully developed yet. Yes the drugs were a disproportionate response, but jail time is a disproportionate response to that. Are the parents dead? Is there any permanent damage? No? Then just ground the girls for months and months. They may be teenagers but they're still human, they'll feel guilty about this. And when they're older, they'll feel really guilty about this.

And I firmly believe that no good parent ever calls the police on their own child, unless the child is seriously a threat to them. I don't care if your child is a contract killer. If it's your own flesh and blood, you love her unconditionally unless she ever tries to kill you personally. Okay yes, sleeping pills, kind of a really scary sign. But hardly life-threatening.

Sleeping pills aren't life threatening? Are you kidding me? My mom's a doctor, and the number one thing she warns against is overdose. Overdosing on anything is going to have serious consequences on your body.

It's hard for parents to see their kids in jail. I've seen people who's entire lives were ruined by doing a simple act like that. I'm against these kids because they considered doing this to their parents. Nothing justifies losing a life, and this is no exception.

I say get those girls in juvenile detention. It's harsh, but that's the way the world works. It's unfortunate, but true; very, very true

Hagi:
Because the only measures the police ever takes are locking people up and then only for months at a time along with criminal records and everything else.

Well, the kids were arrested were they not? And no mention of immediate release. Says so right there in the article.

Hagi:
This was a serious thing they did. There need to be serious consequences. The police is there to help, that's their job.

That's why I wondered where 'cover for failing conservative parents who still use curfews at age 15' came into the police's job description.

It's the parents who caused this to happen. It's mainly up to them to express it's an serious and intolerable event, and most of all: Change themselves so their child doesn't resent them and their rules to a degree where drugging the folks looks acceptable.

I've grown up around plenty conservatives who thought more rules and more opression was the answer to child raising, and those were the kids who did the craziest things. Talked to a girl once, totally unknown to me, and within five minutes I knew more about her than her father did. Parenting fail much? The cause, he believed that his rules, like no sex before marriage, no internet acces, limited television acces and no boyfriends, were so totally justified that any discussion about them was out of the question. So she did crazy stuff. People who didn't have parents with that many rules behaved themselves a lot better.

In this case, responding with just more reppression in the form of the bloody police getting involved, and severely betraying the trust their daughter has in them by abandoning her in a prison cell, in only going to make things worse. It's conservative 1950's parenting vs modern responsible parenting at it's finest.

Blablahb:

Hagi:
Because the only measures the police ever takes are locking people up and then only for months at a time along with criminal records and everything else.

Well, the kids were arrested were they not? And no mention of immediate release. Says so right there in the article.

Hagi:
This was a serious thing they did. There need to be serious consequences. The police is there to help, that's their job.

That's why I wondered where 'cover for failing conservative parents who still use curfews at age 15' came into the police's job description.

It's the parents who caused this to happen. It's mainly up to them to express it's an serious and intolerable event, and most of all: Change themselves so their child doesn't resent them and their rules to a degree where drugging the folks looks acceptable.

I've grown up around plenty conservatives who thought more rules and more opression was the answer to child raising, and those were the kids who did the craziest things. Talked to a girl once, totally unknown to me, and within five minutes I knew more about her than her father did. Parenting fail much? The cause, he believed that his rules, like no sex before marriage, no internet acces, limited television acces and no boyfriends, were so totally justified that any discussion about them was out of the question. So she did crazy stuff. People who didn't have parents with that many rules behaved themselves a lot better.

In this case, responding with just more reppression in the form of the bloody police getting involved, and severely betraying the trust their daughter has in them by abandoning her in a prison cell, in only going to make things worse. It's conservative 1950's parenting vs modern responsible parenting at it's finest.

You do realize that both parents could have died, that sedatives given like that can kill? And no internet after 10pm is oppression now? And if an Escapist article doesn't mention they've been released then surely they must not have been?

Do you have children? Have you ever taken care of children?

I doubt it. Your entire post reeks of teenage arrogance that he knows exactly how the world works and could fix everything if done his way.

But by all means, keep on rambling about how much better you know everything and you've proven yourself a better father because you talked to a girl once and thought you knew more about her than her father.

Hagi:

Blablahb:

Hagi:
Because the only measures the police ever takes are locking people up and then only for months at a time along with criminal records and everything else.

Well, the kids were arrested were they not? And no mention of immediate release. Says so right there in the article.

Hagi:
This was a serious thing they did. There need to be serious consequences. The police is there to help, that's their job.

That's why I wondered where 'cover for failing conservative parents who still use curfews at age 15' came into the police's job description.

It's the parents who caused this to happen. It's mainly up to them to express it's an serious and intolerable event, and most of all: Change themselves so their child doesn't resent them and their rules to a degree where drugging the folks looks acceptable.

I've grown up around plenty conservatives who thought more rules and more opression was the answer to child raising, and those were the kids who did the craziest things. Talked to a girl once, totally unknown to me, and within five minutes I knew more about her than her father did. Parenting fail much? The cause, he believed that his rules, like no sex before marriage, no internet acces, limited television acces and no boyfriends, were so totally justified that any discussion about them was out of the question. So she did crazy stuff. People who didn't have parents with that many rules behaved themselves a lot better.

In this case, responding with just more reppression in the form of the bloody police getting involved, and severely betraying the trust their daughter has in them by abandoning her in a prison cell, in only going to make things worse. It's conservative 1950's parenting vs modern responsible parenting at it's finest.

You do realize that both parents could have died, that sedatives given like that can kill? And no internet after 10pm is oppression now? And if an Escapist article doesn't mention they've been released then surely they must not have been?

Do you have children? Have you ever taken care of children?

I doubt it. Your entire post reeks of teenage arrogance that he knows exactly how the world works and could fix everything if done his way.

But by all means, keep on rambling about how much better you know everything and you've proven yourself a better father because you talked to a girl once and thought you knew more about her than her father.

Nah see its perfectly reasonable to slap a child on the wrist and show them that drugging people to get what they want is a perfectly reasonable solution when you want something! /sarcasm

Remus:
10:00 curfew isn't generous, nor is it strict. It's exactly what it should be for teenagers still in school. I had to be up around 6AM to catch a bus and ride its whole route, over an hour total, every morning before school. If I had been up past 10 the previous night, I'd be sleeping the whole day. Restricting internet access is just another way to tell kids "Time to put away the toys and go to bed". That's what the internet is for a teenager - a toy. While drugging the parents is kinda extreme, getting the police involved is even worse. No permanent harm was done to the parents but permanent harm can be done to the children if they end up with a record due to this incident. It will not matter when this happened, if it's on their record it will make them effectively unemployable and yet another strain on society in a country full of people who are stuck in a vicious circle of crime and poverty.

Or, the brush with the law might just scare 'em into thinking twice before doing anything so retarded again. When I was about 11 I thought it would be a laugh to make a hoax 999 call. The ensuing shit storm and severe talking-to by a great big ape of a police officer stuck with me though. It taught me lesson and I've not been in trouble since.

And at 15-16, you should really be aware of the difference between right and wrong and be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. Don't want a record? Don't drug your fucking parents. It's not rocket science.

Kopikatsu:
They should face jail time regardless. Drugging someone standing between you and something you want because you can't just wait until the morning is not the mark of a well adjusted individual.

Blablahb:

Milanezi:
I guess now the girls made their point of how MATURE they are and how SAFE it is to let them roam around the internet.

Look at it the other way: Their parents treated them like small children, and it made them act like small children, what a surprise...

You think that an acceptable response to a curfew (And 10PM is very generous) is to drug the authority figure so you have free reign?

It is if you're wanting to cyber with creeps on Omegle...they don't get super-predatory til after 10pm

Yeeeaaah. 10 PM for a 16 year-old is excessive. Lights out for school days for me was about 11 and about 2 AM for weekends, usually Friday nights and Sundays.

IamLEAM1983:
Yeeeaaah. 10 PM for a 16 year-old is excessive. Lights out for school days for me was about 11 and about 2 AM for weekends, usually Friday nights and Sundays.

They werent allowed on the internet after 10 PM, it didnt say anything about other activities.

So teenagers roofied there parents so they could use the internet... I don't even, what?
I'm starting to wonder if internet addiction is real.

Blablahb:

Milanezi:
I guess now the girls made their point of how MATURE they are and how SAFE it is to let them roam around the internet.

Look at it the other way: Their parents treated them like small children, and it made them act like small children, what a surprise...

They drugged their parents. You don't think that's a bit overboard? I like the internet as much as the next guy, but come on. Are their lives really so boring that they have to do this to get to the internet? There are other things to do you know.

Beautiful End:
Kids nowadays surprise me.

Yeah, I don't think this is a generation thing. I'm pretty sure that things like these (and worse scenarios) has happened before in history.

Capitano Segnaposto:

Blablahb:

Milanezi:
I guess now the girls made their point of how MATURE they are and how SAFE it is to let them roam around the internet.

Look at it the other way: Their parents treated them like small children, and it made them act like small children, what a surprise...

That isn't acceptable. The kids should be in Juvie for at least a few months. This shouldn't be acceptable at any age (unless you are 8 years old, have no idea what pills are and were pretending to be an "alchemist"). At 15/16, you should know full well what you are doing.

I got it! They wanted to make a Philosopher's Stone! That's why the parents went to the extreme of calling the cops!

lol at folks saying "Arrest is just gonna make them resent the parents more!" They fucking plotted to drug them for something as petty as time on the internet. I think the resentment is already there and there's a hell of a lot of it.

Do the folks saying stuff like this not have kids or have a hand in raising them or something like that? I would normally agree that you don't call the cops on your kids and stuff, but shit man, if they're willing to drug you, seems to me they're already well past any reasonable limits. I'm not really willing to say this is a fault in parenting; some people are just bad people. Evidently those teenagers are those folks.

I mean, consider your own parents: would you enact a plot to drug them to unconsciousness to sit on the computer nattering away on Facebook or something? This isn't some shit like they broke a window and the parents made vandalism charges. It's scary shit to understand that you're living with a person who is willing to poison your food just to play Farmville. That's beyond your reasonable parenting issue.

FFP2:
Man that is some messed up shit... Teenagers are so pathetic these days.

I resent that! I am 16 and... Well, it's true... But you don't have to be a dick about it... (sorry, please don't hate me. All in good spirits and all!)

OT: That's ridiculous.. I mean, seriously, how does that? I wonder what they'll do if they don't get the new smart phone. Pump their parents full of narcotics, file a suit and go live with someone else?

Blablahb:
I'd say the girl's reaction was a bit extreme...

They where probably not deliberately extreme, sounds like typical teenager not thinking things through. They probably thought "haha we will make em sleep early then we shall have all the internets!" and didn't consider the dangers or what exactly it was they where doing.

The parents sound like arseholes though, going to the police? If they wanted their daughter to be responsible and get good school grades by not stopping up using the internet they might well have fucked it for her now, if she gets charged it will follow her around for years.

Im with the kids on this one. Not that i think its ok to drug people, but if youve ABSOLUTELY GOT TO drug anyone it may as well be youre folks, and hell there are times when drugging my own parents would have been a good way to go for me too.

srm79:
Or, the brush with the law might just scare 'em into thinking twice before doing anything so retarded again. When I was about 11 I thought it would be a laugh to make a hoax 999 call. The ensuing shit storm and severe talking-to by a great big ape of a police officer stuck with me though. It taught me lesson and I've not been in trouble since.

And do you think that if you had been locked up in a prison cell for a day, you would've learned anything more then you learned from being cautioned like you were?

Zeldias:
lol at folks saying "Arrest is just gonna make them resent the parents more!" They fucking plotted to drug them for something as petty as time on the internet. I think the resentment is already there and there's a hell of a lot of it.

So the answer to that failing of the parents, is to call the police and make it worse, rather than try to repair the parents' authority?

Besides, what tells us they 'plotted to drug them'? The average kid isn't a pharmacist. If you tell them it's prescription sleeping pills, the average kid will think no more than "It's pill that make you sleep". So it very much remains to be seen if they were even aware of the risk.

And should people be punished for what they didn't know and reasonably couldn't be expected to know? I think not.

IamQ:
They drugged their parents. You don't think that's a bit overboard?

It sure is. But slamming 15 and 16 year olds who did something stupid in jail, because the parents failed at parenting even more so.

Like I said, I've seen so many conservative parents being unreasonable and authoritarian that their kids started doing all kinds of crazy stuff, that I'm putting the blame with the parents unless I hear of something that shows they were in the right.

Hagi:
Do you have children? Have you ever taken care of children?
I doubt it. Your entire post reeks of teenage arrogance that he knows exactly how the world works and could fix everything if done his way.

I see you're so desperate to find arguments to defend unreasonable authoritarian treatment of kids that you've taken to insulting me. How mature of you...

Maybe you could read a book on how to raise kids? See how many times you'll find "Just say they can't do this and that, don't explain it to be them, and throw them in jail if they don't listen" listed as good parenting advice.

Blablahb:

srm79:
Or, the brush with the law might just scare 'em into thinking twice before doing anything so retarded again. When I was about 11 I thought it would be a laugh to make a hoax 999 call. The ensuing shit storm and severe talking-to by a great big ape of a police officer stuck with me though. It taught me lesson and I've not been in trouble since.

And do you think that if you had been locked up in a prison cell for a day, you would've learned anything more then you learned from being cautioned like you were?

Probably how badly of piss the average cell stinks of. A few hours in a cell for what they did doesn't really seem all that unreasonable. We're not talking about primary school kids here, we're talking 15/16 year olds on the cusp of adulthood. If I had been 16 when I did what I did, I suspect I may have been formally arrested and spent a bit of time cooling my heels in a cell too. It's hardly the same thing as being sent to an actual prison though, is it?

Zeldias:
lol at folks saying "Arrest is just gonna make them resent the parents more!" They fucking plotted to drug them for something as petty as time on the internet. I think the resentment is already there and there's a hell of a lot of it.

Blablahb:
So the answer to that failing of the parents, is to call the police and make it worse, rather than try to repair the parents' authority?

Apart from assuming that the parents are "bad parents" - based on what? - you're overlooking the fact that some people are just simply dicks. All the love, attention and communication in the world won't change that. And considering the seriousness of what they did, there's no harm in sending the message that the consequences for this sort of action go way beyond a grounding, 10 minutes on the naughty step or whatever flavour of punishment you can legally enforce in the home.

Blablahb:
Besides, what tells us they 'plotted to drug them'? The average kid isn't a pharmacist. If you tell them it's prescription sleeping pills, the average kid will think no more than "It's pill that make you sleep". So it very much remains to be seen if they were even aware of the risk.

And should people be punished for what they didn't know and reasonably couldn't be expected to know? I think not.

By the age of 15/16 you should be more than aware of a couple of concepts called "common sense" and "personal responsibility". Certainly by that age almost every teen I've ever met insists on being treated like an adult and being shown the respect they assume they deserve. If you want that, then you have to accept facing "grown up" consequences for acts of utter stupidity.

IamQ:

Blablahb:
They drugged their parents. You don't think that's a bit overboard?

It sure is. But slamming 15 and 16 year olds who did something stupid in jail, because the parents failed at parenting even more so.

Like I said, I've seen so many conservative parents being unreasonable and authoritarian that their kids started doing all kinds of crazy stuff, that I'm putting the blame with the parents unless I hear of something that shows they were in the right.

Hagi:
Do you have children? Have you ever taken care of children?
I doubt it. Your entire post reeks of teenage arrogance that he knows exactly how the world works and could fix everything if done his way.

I see you're so desperate to find arguments to defend unreasonable authoritarian treatment of kids that you've taken to insulting me. How mature of you...

Maybe you could read a book on how to raise kids? See how many times you'll find "Just say they can't do this and that, don't explain it to be them, and throw them in jail if they don't listen" listed as good parenting advice.

Blame the parents without all the facts? That is almost certainly the talk of someone who, at the very least, is not a parent, nor a responsible adult. I would be intrigued to hear your alternative suggestion to what these parents did though? Slap on the wrist? Probably not, as corporal punishment is tantamount to child abuse these days. Grounding? Probably a human rights violation. That's my 10 year old's current war cry whenever any form of punishment is handed down for willful wrongdoing. 10 minutes on the naughty step maybe? That seems to be the fashionable punishment these days. Never mind that the only message it sends is "nothing of consequence will actually happen if I do something I shouldn't". Funnily enough, it's the parents who advocate the softly-softly approach who seem to have the most trouble with their teenagers.

I agree that the earlier example of the ultra-strict father banning internet, mobiles etc is a valid argument for not going to the other extreme but the fact is that in todays world, most parents are doing the best they can, with one hand tied behind their back at the same time as the education system and the media are instilling an "I, me, mine" mentality into kids. It's a constant battle instilling the ideas of common sense, responsibility and thinking before acting. Mostly it works out alright in the end, but if you haven't been there and done it, you have no real idea what you're talking about. Fact. I sure as hell know that I would have been instantly voicing sympathy for the kids when I was in my teens/early 20's. Over a decade of parenting later, I realise how hard it is.

I'd be interested to see an answer to Hagi's (not unreasonable) questions too. Do you have, or do you care for children? Because the fact is that your post does read exactly as Hagi suggests. You might not like to hear that, but it's not a personal attack in the slightest. It's an observation of your commentary, and a valid one too. There's a difference between criticism and insult.

Blablahb:

srm79:
Or, the brush with the law might just scare 'em into thinking twice before doing anything so retarded again. When I was about 11 I thought it would be a laugh to make a hoax 999 call. The ensuing shit storm and severe talking-to by a great big ape of a police officer stuck with me though. It taught me lesson and I've not been in trouble since.

And do you think that if you had been locked up in a prison cell for a day, you would've learned anything more then you learned from being cautioned like you were?

Zeldias:
lol at folks saying "Arrest is just gonna make them resent the parents more!" They fucking plotted to drug them for something as petty as time on the internet. I think the resentment is already there and there's a hell of a lot of it.

So the answer to that failing of the parents, is to call the police and make it worse, rather than try to repair the parents' authority?

Besides, what tells us they 'plotted to drug them'? The average kid isn't a pharmacist. If you tell them it's prescription sleeping pills, the average kid will think no more than "It's pill that make you sleep". So it very much remains to be seen if they were even aware of the risk.

And should people be punished for what they didn't know and reasonably couldn't be expected to know? I think not.

IamQ:

Blablahb:
They drugged their parents. You don't think that's a bit overboard?

It sure is. But slamming 15 and 16 year olds who did something stupid in jail, because the parents failed at parenting even more so.

Like I said, I've seen so many conservative parents being unreasonable and authoritarian that their kids started doing all kinds of crazy stuff, that I'm putting the blame with the parents unless I hear of something that shows they were in the right.

[quote="Hagi" post="7.397697.16249523"]Do you have children? Have you ever taken care of children?
I doubt it. Your entire post reeks of teenage arrogance that he knows exactly how the world works and could fix everything if done his way.

I see you're so desperate to find arguments to defend unreasonable authoritarian treatment of kids that you've taken to insulting me. How mature of you...

Maybe you could read a book on how to raise kids? See how many times you'll find "Just say they can't do this and that, don't explain it to be them, and throw them in jail if they don't listen" listed as good parenting advice.

Regarding your quote of me...uhh...I didn't write that. My account must've been hacked, or I just copy-pasted someone elses argument. O.o

srm79:

Blablahb:

srm79:
Or, the brush with the law might just scare 'em into thinking twice before doing anything so retarded again. When I was about 11 I thought it would be a laugh to make a hoax 999 call. The ensuing shit storm and severe talking-to by a great big ape of a police officer stuck with me though. It taught me lesson and I've not been in trouble since.

And do you think that if you had been locked up in a prison cell for a day, you would've learned anything more then you learned from being cautioned like you were?

Probably how badly of piss the average cell stinks of. A few hours in a cell for what they did doesn't really seem all that unreasonable. We're not talking about primary school kids here, we're talking 15/16 year olds on the cusp of adulthood. If I had been 16 when I did what I did, I suspect I may have been formally arrested and spent a bit of time cooling my heels in a cell too. It's hardly the same thing as being sent to an actual prison though, is it?

Zeldias:
lol at folks saying "Arrest is just gonna make them resent the parents more!" They fucking plotted to drug them for something as petty as time on the internet. I think the resentment is already there and there's a hell of a lot of it.

Blablahb:
So the answer to that failing of the parents, is to call the police and make it worse, rather than try to repair the parents' authority?

Apart from assuming that the parents are "bad parents" - based on what? - you're overlooking the fact that some people are just simply dicks. All the love, attention and communication in the world won't change that. And considering the seriousness of what they did, there's no harm in sending the message that the consequences for this sort of action go way beyond a grounding, 10 minutes on the naughty step or whatever flavour of punishment you can legally enforce in the home.

Blablahb:
Besides, what tells us they 'plotted to drug them'? The average kid isn't a pharmacist. If you tell them it's prescription sleeping pills, the average kid will think no more than "It's pill that make you sleep". So it very much remains to be seen if they were even aware of the risk.

And should people be punished for what they didn't know and reasonably couldn't be expected to know? I think not.

By the age of 15/16 you should be more than aware of a couple of concepts called "common sense" and "personal responsibility". Certainly by that age almost every teen I've ever met insists on being treated like an adult and being shown the respect they assume they deserve. If you want that, then you have to accept facing "grown up" consequences for acts of utter stupidity.

IamQ:

Blablahb:
They drugged their parents. You don't think that's a bit overboard?

It sure is. But slamming 15 and 16 year olds who did something stupid in jail, because the parents failed at parenting even more so.

Like I said, I've seen so many conservative parents being unreasonable and authoritarian that their kids started doing all kinds of crazy stuff, that I'm putting the blame with the parents unless I hear of something that shows they were in the right.

Hagi:
Do you have children? Have you ever taken care of children?
I doubt it. Your entire post reeks of teenage arrogance that he knows exactly how the world works and could fix everything if done his way.

I see you're so desperate to find arguments to defend unreasonable authoritarian treatment of kids that you've taken to insulting me. How mature of you...

Maybe you could read a book on how to raise kids? See how many times you'll find "Just say they can't do this and that, don't explain it to be them, and throw them in jail if they don't listen" listed as good parenting advice.

Blame the parents without all the facts? That is almost certainly the talk of someone who, at the very least, is not a parent, nor a responsible adult. I would be intrigued to hear your alternative suggestion to what these parents did though? Slap on the wrist? Probably not, as corporal punishment is tantamount to child abuse these days. Grounding? Probably a human rights violation. That's my 10 year old's current war cry whenever any form of punishment is handed down for willful wrongdoing. 10 minutes on the naughty step maybe? That seems to be the fashionable punishment these days. Never mind that the only message it sends is "nothing of consequence will actually happen if I do something I shouldn't". Funnily enough, it's the parents who advocate the softly-softly approach who seem to have the most trouble with their teenagers.

I agree that the earlier example of the ultra-strict father banning internet, mobiles etc is a valid argument for not going to the other extreme but the fact is that in todays world, most parents are doing the best they can, with one hand tied behind their back at the same time as the education system and the media are instilling an "I, me, mine" mentality into kids. It's a constant battle instilling the ideas of common sense, responsibility and thinking before acting. Mostly it works out alright in the end, but if you haven't been there and done it, you have no real idea what you're talking about. Fact. I sure as hell know that I would have been instantly voicing sympathy for the kids when I was in my teens/early 20's. Over a decade of parenting later, I realise how hard it is.

I'd be interested to see an answer to Hagi's (not unreasonable) questions too. Do you have, or do you care for children? Because the fact is that your post does read exactly as Hagi suggests. You might not like to hear that, but it's not a personal attack in the slightest. It's an observation of your commentary, and a valid one too. There's a difference between criticism and insult.

Regarding your quote of me...uhh...I didn't write that. My account must've been hacked, or I just copy-pasted someone elses argument. O.o

IamQ:

Regarding your quote of me...uhh...I didn't write that. My account must've been hacked, or I just copy-pasted someone elses argument. O.o

I had a feeling that something had gone wrong with the formatting of the original post I was quoting, however I was reluctant to alter it in case I was mistaken and accused of misquoting or something. No autopsy, no foul! :-)

Poorly raised kids. Balls-y kids though, gotta give them that.
Blame the parents, blame the kids, blame the schools. There is always plenty of blame to go around.

Personally, my parents didn't have rules. They explained the possible consequences of my actions and left me to make my own decisions. Sure, I did some stupid things, but I never drugged my parents. In fact, drugging people against their knowledge is one of the few acts I find morally reprehensible.
Unless you want to drug me. I'm cool with that.

All that being said, I do hope the parents take this opportunity to reevaluate just how well they are raising their kids. Though by that age, parents have much less influence on the shaping of their kids behavior.

srm79:
Apart from assuming that the parents are "bad parents" - based on what? -

The fact that they treat a 15 year old like a 5 year old, and still impose curfews on them.

srm79:
you're overlooking the fact that some people are just simply dicks. All the love, attention and communication in the world won't change that.

Untill I see a reason to suspect that that's the case here, I'm going with the far likelier explanation though.

srm79:
By the age of 15/16 you should be more than aware of a couple of concepts called "common sense" and "personal responsibility". Certainly by that age almost every teen I've ever met insists on being treated like an adult and being shown the respect they assume they deserve. If you want that, then you have to accept facing "grown up" consequences for acts of utter stupidity.

That's kind of ignoring my point: medication for most adults even is "this pill makes you sleep", and nothing more. How can you expect 15/16 year olds to know what speaking on average, only a pharmacist knows? The potential danger of sleep medication is not something they could've been aware of, and thus shouldn't be punished for.

Basically what I am saying is kids are kids. Ignore their wishes, chances are they'll ignore yours as well. This looks like a typical example of that, except that this time pills were involved, as opposed to the usual 'rebel act' of getting drunk, screwing almost random strangers, joyriding, shoplifting, using drugs and some other things kids do when they're that age.

Things that are really within the domestic sphere shouldn't involve groups like the police. Around here if you overstep the line that bad (like fireworks vandalism or shoplifting, typically) you get sent to a bureau that replaces the legal process for kids, and they ussually sweep a street for a day or something. That and having to return what they took to the store, and apologise. The few I've seen undergo that became really, really small and never did something like that again.

It works. Nothing harsher than that is needed.

Blablahb:

srm79:
Apart from assuming that the parents are "bad parents" - based on what? -

The fact that they treat a 15 year old like a 5 year old, and still impose curfews on them.

What's wrong with a (not unreasonable) 10pm curfew? I had a curfew until I left school. I was living under my parents' roof, at their expense. I was expected to follow some not unreasonable rules. If, at 15 you aren't mature enough to grasp that simple thought, then you aren't mature enough to be let off the leash further. Here's the crazy thing - you realise years later that on the most part, these so-unreasonable rules are not there just for your parents amusement. They exist to protect and help you mostly. Although you continue to refuse to answer questions about whether you have your own kids, or responsibility for kids, I'm coming to the conclusion that you don't by taking such a naive view with this.

Blablahb:

srm79:
you're overlooking the fact that some people are just simply dicks. All the love, attention and communication in the world won't change that.

Untill I see a reason to suspect that that's the case here, I'm going with the far likelier explanation though.

Why? What makes it likelier? Why is it so unlikely that the answer is that like many teens, they weren't getting everything their way so threw a hissy fit? Only this was a particularly dangerous and stupid one?

Blablahb:

srm79:
By the age of 15/16 you should be more than aware of a couple of concepts called "common sense" and "personal responsibility". Certainly by that age almost every teen I've ever met insists on being treated like an adult and being shown the respect they assume they deserve. If you want that, then you have to accept facing "grown up" consequences for acts of utter stupidity.

That's kind of ignoring my point: medication for most adults even is "this pill makes you sleep", and nothing more. How can you expect 15/16 year olds to know what speaking on average, only a pharmacist knows? The potential danger of sleep medication is not something they could've been aware of, and thus shouldn't be punished for.

Really? You haven't had much experience with sedatives , have you? Again, if by 15/16 they don't have even the vaguest idea that fucking about with sedatives is dangerous, there are serious problems with that individual. And not necessarily a result of poor parenting.

Blablahb:

Basically what I am saying is kids are kids. Ignore their wishes, chances are they'll ignore yours as well. This looks like a typical example of that, except that this time pills were involved, as opposed to the usual 'rebel act' of getting drunk, screwing almost random strangers, joyriding, shoplifting, using drugs and some other things kids do when they're that age.

No, what you're saying is "give us everything all our own way". Their wishes were not entirely ignored. If that was the case, they would have not gotten access to the internet, full stop. What happened here is that they were given a reasonable compromise, and decided it wasn't enough then took matters into their own hands. The simple fact is that most people are not mature enough at 15 or 16 to be given completely free reign. We all think we are at the time, and don't realise until much later that in truth we weren't. Hell, at 16, I thought I knew everything. Now, at almost 34, I've realised just how much I actually didn't know at the time.

Blablahb:

Things that are really within the domestic sphere shouldn't involve groups like the police. Around here if you overstep the line that bad (like fireworks vandalism or shoplifting, typically) you get sent to a bureau that replaces the legal process for kids, and they ussually sweep a street for a day or something. That and having to return what they took to the store, and apologise. The few I've seen undergo that became really, really small and never did something like that again.

It works. Nothing harsher than that is needed.

In most places, it's a visit to the cop shop first and foremost for all the items I've bolded. This didn't happen where you live, so what happens there isn't relevant.

So, for the third time of asking - what parenting experience do you have that qualifies you as an expert on this topic?

srm79:
What's wrong with a (not unreasonable) 10pm curfew? I had a curfew until I left school.

What's wrong with it, is that it's patronising, unnecessary, and what else are you supposed to do at that time? It's too late in the evening for anything social, primetime on the telly is past, when you've got homework that late you've been doing something wrong to begin with, and it's way too early for bed unless you require 9-10 hours of sleep or need to get up spectacularly early.

srm79:
Why? What makes it likelier? Why is it so unlikely that the answer is that like many teens, they weren't getting everything their way so threw a hissy fit? Only this was a particularly dangerous and stupid one?

It's likelier because there's conservative parents a plenty who still believe in imposing unnecessary self-justifying rules, while kids with a personality so inherently deviant they'll ignore their parents in such a fashion, are extremely rare.

Because of that, parental failure is the cause in this case unless we see something to make us suspect differently.

srm79:
Really? You haven't had much experience with sedatives , have you? Again, if by 15/16 they don't have even the vaguest idea that fucking about with sedatives is dangerous, there are serious problems with that individual. And not necessarily a result of poor parenting.

So if I'd asked you at age 15 what the effects and side-effects of dormicum are, you'd have answered without needing to look it up? I'm pretty sure you couldn't even now.

I don't know how other people spend their childhood, but I'm betting the average kid isn't popping a pharmacy worth of pills on a daily basis by age 15, so they can't be expected to know.

wow a lot of people think a 10pm curfew is bad. I have to deal with a 9pm computer cerfew and i'm 18 [still living at home and in my last year of highschool, never failed a grade so don't think i'm some slacker.] also if I wanted to get around curfews i would just wait untill my parents went to bed LIKE A NORMAL TEENAGER. Drugs have some nasty side effects and being drugged can cause horrid things to happen. What if the parent had been talking on the phone before taking the pharmasists snooze? the person on the other end could have paniced and called the cops and crap would have hit the fan. It was a dumb tactic the girls did and a horrid crime aswell as it ruins a persons concept of safety. I bet the parent has to think now before accepting any food because of the incident. I don't think the teens should be sent to jail but a few hundred hours of community service should straighten them up.

Blablahb:

srm79:
What's wrong with a (not unreasonable) 10pm curfew? I had a curfew until I left school.

What's wrong with it, is that it's patronising, unnecessary, and what else are you supposed to do at that time? It's too late in the evening for anything social, primetime on the telly is past, when you've got homework that late you've been doing something wrong to begin with, and it's way too early for bed unless you require 9-10 hours of sleep or need to get up spectacularly early.

srm79:
Why? What makes it likelier? Why is it so unlikely that the answer is that like many teens, they weren't getting everything their way so threw a hissy fit? Only this was a particularly dangerous and stupid one?

It's likelier because there's conservative parents a plenty who still believe in imposing unnecessary self-justifying rules, while kids with a personality so inherently deviant they'll ignore their parents in such a fashion, are extremely rare.

Because of that, parental failure is the cause in this case unless we see something to make us suspect differently.

srm79:
Really? You haven't had much experience with sedatives , have you? Again, if by 15/16 they don't have even the vaguest idea that fucking about with sedatives is dangerous, there are serious problems with that individual. And not necessarily a result of poor parenting.

So if I'd asked you at age 15 what the effects and side-effects of dormicum are, you'd have answered without needing to look it up? I'm pretty sure you couldn't even now.

I don't know how other people spend their childhood, but I'm betting the average kid isn't popping a pharmacy worth of pills on a daily basis by age 15, so they can't be expected to know.

The curfew was just an internet curfew, something you seem to conveniently have missed, not a bedtime lights out curfew.

By that age you are expected to know that any action you take that willfully removes another persons rights and freedoms is a crime, things such as restraining someone against their will, or confining someone against their will, y'know kinda like deliberately sedating someone against their will. Knowledge of whether of not it is potentially lethal to apply a certain dose is irrelevant.

Also, when you think of the fact that the internet connection they were being denied access to, is a SERVICE, not a right, and that service is being provided at a cost to their parents, as is shelter and food, children should respect basic guidelines set for by parents due to the fact that the freedoms and provisions they see every day, are not rights, they are privaleges.

So sure, parenting could have been better, but at that age the main responsibility, falls on the teenagers involved.

I would suggest rethinking your point of view later, once you've experienced something beyond childhood, because due to the way you keep railing against sensible rules, and showing support for teenagers who acted in a criminal manner, and stepped far over the line, I would think that you have very little experience in or knowledge of the world in which you live.

Blablahb:

srm79:
What's wrong with a (not unreasonable) 10pm curfew? I had a curfew until I left school.

What's wrong with it, is that it's patronising, unnecessary, and what else are you supposed to do at that time? It's too late in the evening for anything social, primetime on the telly is past, when you've got homework that late you've been doing something wrong to begin with, and it's way too early for bed unless you require 9-10 hours of sleep or need to get up spectacularly early.

You know that the recommended amount of sleep per night in your teens is 8-10 hours per 24, right? It varies from person to person of course, but much less than 8 and your concentration the next day is going to be substantially sub-par. Honestly, 5 minutes with Google...

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/sleep-topics/teens-and-sleep

http://kidshealth.org/teen/your_body/take_care/how_much_sleep.html

http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih3/sleep/guide/info-sleep.htm

A 10pm curfew would be about right for getting the absolute bare minimum amount of sleep required for a 7-8am start. What's unreasonable about that? I know it doesn't fit the typical teen "my way or the highway" attitude, but that's why teens still have rules to follow. Refer to my previous comment (conveniently edited out) about the reason for a lot of these rule. Sometimes your parents do know best, no matter how much you refuse to believe it. Seriously - we've been here a bit longer, and *shock horror* might even have learned a few things, and are pretty much always trying to do the best thing by our children. Our mission in life is not to spoil all your fun, but to protect, safeguard and provide the best enviroment we can for our kids. That's really how simple it is.

Blablahb:

srm79:
Why? What makes it likelier? Why is it so unlikely that the answer is that like many teens, they weren't getting everything their way so threw a hissy fit? Only this was a particularly dangerous and stupid one?

It's likelier because there's conservative parents a plenty who still believe in imposing unnecessary self-justifying rules, while kids with a personality so inherently deviant they'll ignore their parents in such a fashion, are extremely rare.

Because of that, parental failure is the cause in this case unless we see something to make us suspect differently.

Again, based on what? You repeatedly claim that it's likely that uber-conservative parents are to blame for this, but you don't back it up, while also admitting in a previous post that all the facts are not available. If you are going to state something as absolute fact, at the very least back it up with something. Protip: Opinion and conjecture are not the same as backing something up with facts.

I'll let you in on a little secret - most of the mischief that me and my pals got up to when I was a kid were usually accompanied with an utterance of "let's not get caught". We knew damn fine when we were breaking the rules, and banked on not getting caught. Much like generations of kids before us. And since. The only difference these days is that the idea of "personal responsibility" seems to have fallen by the wayside somewhere. Well guess what, it hasn't. And the real world is going to prove something of a shock to the self entitled teens who genuinely believe that they can always blame someone else. And I would happily wager a months' pay that these two knew that what they were doing was wrong, whether they admit it or not. There's no way you couldn't know, unless your moral compass was so broken that you were heading for a life of serial murder anyway.

Blablahb:

srm79:
Really? You haven't had much experience with sedatives , have you? Again, if by 15/16 they don't have even the vaguest idea that fucking about with sedatives is dangerous, there are serious problems with that individual. And not necessarily a result of poor parenting.

So if I'd asked you at age 15 what the effects and side-effects of dormicum are, you'd have answered without needing to look it up? I'm pretty sure you couldn't even now.

I don't know how other people spend their childhood, but I'm betting the average kid isn't popping a pharmacy worth of pills on a daily basis by age 15, so they can't be expected to know.

I might not have been able to tell you in depth what the exact effects, possible side effects etc of any given pharmaceutical product would or wouldn't have been. But I wouldn't have needed to. I wouldn't have slipped someone sleeping pills. There would have been bloody hell to pay for doing that, and I knew it. Trying to argue that this is OK from any angle is well, either utterly stupid or utterly naive. Seriously - drugging someone is OK as long as you don't know what the side affects could be? Really?!

Then again, I was raised and educated in a day and age before schools taught kids that they can basically do what the hell they like, and a swift clip around the ear from mum when I did something wrong didn't result in the intervention of social services. I eventually learned the difference between right and wrong, and when I did wrong, I took the punishment on the chin. And guess what? It worked.

Oh, and for the 5th time, do you have, or are you responsible for children?

Dunno the ages of the girls, but if they are 15-16 or older the parents shouldnt be dicks and just let them use the internet

Kuratius:
We don't know details as to how these girls have been treated, so I would hesitate to judge their actions.
But:
The basic idea is that they were fighting for their rights and freedom to do what they want. How you may ask?
First of all, people don't automatically turn "mature" on their 18th birthday, the system is only based around age because it's too lazy to actually look for maturity. Even further, as of now, kids don't really have their own rights and are just property. Why? Simply because the parents get to make the decisions for them, regardless of their maturity and the parent's maturity because the parent's basically possess their rights and are supposed to act as a representative until they have reached the age of maturity. I'm also saying that people's view of "maturity" is more often than not based on their own standards and what they would do, which isn't necessarily the right thing. The problem here is that most kinds just don't have the courage to right for the rights they cherish. So Kudos to these girls in that regard, they ceratinly do atleast have courage. It's also an important part of growing up to realize that your paren't aren't flawless and to rebel against them if you think their decisions are wrong to become an independent and healthy individual. After all, we aren't trying raise soldiers who just have to follow the orders that they're given, soldiers usually even made the inital decision by themselves, while kids are just forced to do what they're told. It's basically limited-time-tyranny (and currently you really aren't presented with any choice other than fighting or running if you want freedom. Kinda like the american revolution, but this oppression ends the day they turn 18 in most countries, and you don't necessarily have to fight. But put simply: If somebody is able to make his own decisions, bear responsibilities and can generally provide good reasoning for why he'd doing what he's doing, why interfere? You don't really force "protection from their own mistakes" on adults either, do you? What's the difference between the 22 year olds who keep drinking too much alcohol at parties and these teenagers? I'd call neather responsible, but both are probably aware of the consequences of their decisions.
But put simply: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The law is flawed. Why I may ask? Because children basically can't even go to court, hire a lawyer and file a lawsuit without their parent's assisstance. To understand what I'm saying, just imagine you would basically "belong" to your parents at your current age and maturity. Would you like it? Probably not. Would you fight for your freedom? Hell yeah!
Though, thb, I think drugging the parents might be understandable because in that situation, this is possibly the most harmless thing they could do to get what they wanted with the least possible effort and time.
Also fighting isn't as childish as you may want to put it. If that's childish, then you're also calling terrorists childish, but terrorists are just stupid. The point is, that it isn't the state's duty to protect its citizen from their own stupidity if they don't want the protection and aren't harming anyone else other than themselves.
To quote a famous quote on liberty and freedom(I don't really know anymore where I heard it):
"One man's liberty ends where another man's liberty begins."
Society should try to hold onto this principle a little more, I think.

There is a difference between teenage rebellion and poisoning people. This act was in no way harmless, drugs are an extremely serious matter and I highly doubt either of these girls has a pharmacy degree or even the slightest inkling of the potential dangers or reactions associated with the drug they used. What they did amounts to assault just because they did not get their way. They took drastic actions for self serving reasons without a thought to the serious, potentially lethal repercussions of their actions or the well being of others. What they did was childish in the extreme, not mature.

... wow, really? When I was that age and I wanted unrestricted internet access, I just installed a keylogger and stole my parents password so I could log on while they were away. I guess drugging them is another way to do it, but ... really?

DalekJaas:
Dunno the ages of the girls, but if they are 15-16 or older the parents shouldnt be dicks and just let them use the internet

"The girls - aged 15 and 16 - have been arrested, and charged with conspiracy and mingling a pharmaceutical with food."

I agree, 10pm is a bit ridiculous. 2am is about right. But I guess if the parents go to bed before then it's kind of hard to enforce that.
They have it better than I did though, lol. My parents didn't set a curfew or anything, but I was only allowed to get online with their permission, and they always sat behind me and stared over my shoulder the entire time I was on.

FFP2:
Man that is some messed up shit... Teenagers are so pathetic these days.

HEY. SOME teenagers are so pathetic these days.
Not all of us.
>:(

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