Update: Beta Tester Leaks Elder Scrolls Online Gameplay Footage

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You can pretty much guess what the comments on Youtube were gonna be even before it started.

So now that I can stick to Guild Wars 2 while I wait for Wildstar since this looks like unmitigated ass in a box, I can watch the flame wars on websites around the land.

Honestly the thing that disappointed me most was that crappy swimming animation.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Mudcrab eating like 50 autoattacks. Quality.

This footage pretty much killed whatever interest I had in TESO. Its not that it looks really bad, it just looks mediocre. Same shit with a different coat of paint.

Well he WAS using fire attacks against a water type :P

Subscription-based or not? Because if it is, I'll pass.

Guild Wars 2 will most likely have this beat a million times over while costing no more than a standard singleplayer game ($60).

Those saying "wow clone", I WISH this was a WoW clone but it's really doesn't look like it. The aesthetic style is muddy/brown, it looks awful compared to WoW's cartoony colorful style, the character animation looks jerky, the combat style looks like it's aim-based and the camera is far too close to the character to let you have big angle on everything, etc. Nothing like WoW.

The least MMO developers can do is take WoW's STRENGTHS and one of the greatest things I loved about WoW was the camera and character control. Running on land or zipping around on a flying mount felt so graceful, easy and intuitive. Everything was also beautifully animated.

But then, who am I fooling with a Bethesda vs Blizzard comparison, those two companies aren't even in the same galaxy when it comes to quality control :P

Look guys I understand if you aren't knowledgeable in this but it's not a WoW clone.
However the basis they are building on is that very very old MMORPG principle, with only select features being replaced to emulate TES while mostly doing the same old, so if you are expecting this to be anything like TES games then you are out of touch with reality, because there are limits to MMOs that just can't be overcome.

So if you look for yet another MMORPG then this might as well be your next, if you look for more TES then it is the wrong item.

I'm amazed about how people complain about generic. As long as the game is well done there is no problem with that. And at this point ALL games are pretty much generic as in the theme as been done before

Wait... let me get this straight... It's an elder scroll game... and you don't start as a prisoner?

Watched the footage, and....yeah, not impressed in the slightest. I've been laughing at all the people raving about how great this game looks, because it shows that too many of them either haven't played many MMOs (and thus don't realize how generic this game really is) or are just so easy to impress that all it takes is the ES name slapped on the box to make them think it's great, regardless of how good it really is.

It's not really a WoW clone, but it clearly took several pages from GW2....except it didn't do them as well.

What I noticed:

    1) Stamina running: GW2 doesn't need that because there's the Swiftness buff, which can also be applied to team mates allowing for better group coordination.

    2) Blocking can be done at any time, but only reduces damage, which will either lead to people spamming it in combat when not expressly attacking, or not bothering with it at all. Blocking (and indeed any invulnerability mechanics) in GW2 is placed on a large cooldown but can completely negate one or even several enemy attacks, forcing you to use blocking strategically in order to survive.

    3) Combat in TESO is movement-based, as with GW2. However, other than your health bar dropping, there's no indication that you're dying at all, and you can't rally. GW2's interface starts to grow more and more red around the edges when your health drops, giving you a visual cue that you're taking too much damage. And you can rally by killing an enemy before they finish you off, something that has served me very well in WvW. And unfortunately, both games clearly have the problem of their combat boiling down to a lot of kiting in PvE, which doesn't actually imply any skill is involved.

    4) TESO's faction-based PvP is a carbon copy of GW2. It remains to be seen if it can hold up to WvW.

    5) Both games have a (meaningless) achievement system.

    6) TESO's quest system seems to be closer to a Skyrim/WoW structure, in that you receive quests by finding places or talking to NPCs. I would maintain this is a step backwards from games like GW2 and Firefall, which utilize dynamic events that give the world a more realistic feel.

    7) The game's "skill trees" look like a stripped-down version of other MMO skill trees, which isn't good.

Can't really say I'm impressed at all. The game's been in development for a long time, and yet all they can offer is worse versions of other game mechanics. Maybe it gets better several hours in, but that doesn't matter if the game can't hook me in the first several hours. And this one doesn't appear that it does.

And I'm pretty sure that when they finally admit that they really want a subscription for this game, a lot of the praise and attention around this game will vanish. As well it should.

Corven:
It's kinda sad that so far besides your comment, pretty much everyone else has decried this game as a WoW clone especially since most of the information we have about the game show's that it is more in line with Guild wars 2 in terms of it's gameplay mechanics.

Er, that's because it's blatantly ripping off a lot of features from GW2, and TESO has not exactly kept that fact a secret.

For example, TESO's PvP system is a three-way war amongst factions that seek to control the land. You fight over various camps and keeps using siege equipment and sheer numbers to take and hold these places. Sounds great, right? Except that they stole the entire idea from GW2's "World vs World" system. It's a blatant carbon copy.

Basically every good idea that this game presents, it took from another (better) game. Honestly this game brings nothing amazing to the table. When the "best" unique feature is a stamina system? Doesn't exactly make me scream "Oh boy, let me get my wallet," at least not to me. But maybe some people are just easier to impress than others.

But honestly, I don't expect this MMO to retain players any better than any of the other MMOs out there. It'll sell and then see a massive drop in players after the initial few months, like all the rest.

Rather bland but probably a bit too early to come to conclusions. On the other hand, I don't want to start any other MMOs anymore, they're just too much of a time/rl killer (even for me).

....No.

In a real Elder Scrolls game, those bottles and things on the ground would be items, not window dressing.
In a real Elder Scrolls game, you would not be attacked by a random sword-swinging lunatic while in the character info screen.
In a real Elder Scrolls game, you would not be killed by wolves thirty feet away while they obviously can't reach you.
In a real Elder Scrolls game, the item details would not be an obvious cover laid on top of a generic numberthon where the Level Ten Wolf has three hundred hit points to your fifty. You'd be able to take that wolf, with difficulty but you could manage.

Also, what's with the "Every desert civilization is generic Islamic themed"? The Redguard never struck me as particularly stripes-and-fractals sorts.

piinyouri:

Holy fuck I'm excited about an MMO.
Someone, slap me.

*slap*

Don't get yourself hyped! It will only lead to disappointment...
Try cautious optimism instead ;-)

Karadalis:
Least effective fireballs i have ever seen in a game. Also way to much WoW formula... the small differences arent big enough.

And seriously? Another CLASS based system? The elder scrolls games where allways about creating a character to your liking including his skills... it was one of the keypoints of the series.

Take it out and all you have is a generic fantasy mmo that looks like age of conan and shares to many similiarities with WoW

I'd say they're about as effective as the starting spells in Oblivion/Skyrim. Especially against higher lvl enemies :-p

And from what I recall, classes were a thing in TES until Skyrim came out. They were not as rigid as in other games, but they were there.

Oh, and I think Age of Conan looks better, but from what I read in the YT comments, this guy used low graphics settings (aside from Ultra texture resolution)

And this is why people not breaking their NDAs is so important. People get a look at a very early, unrefined version of the game and people make up their minds about it prematurely. Speaking from prior beta experience with mmos, there is so much change that can take place in a properly run beta that at the end the game looks and plays nothing like it did when it started. Sadly, very few companies seem capable of running betas as nothing more than glorified demos.

They lost me at the character creation. TES game with class based system? Uh no thanks.

CriticKitten:

Corven:
It's kinda sad that so far besides your comment, pretty much everyone else has decried this game as a WoW clone especially since most of the information we have about the game show's that it is more in line with Guild wars 2 in terms of it's gameplay mechanics.

Er, that's because it's blatantly ripping off a lot of features from GW2, and TESO has not exactly kept that fact a secret.

For example, TESO's PvP system is a three-way war amongst factions that seek to control the land. You fight over various camps and keeps using siege equipment and sheer numbers to take and hold these places. Sounds great, right? Except that they stole the entire idea from GW2's "World vs World" system. It's a blatant carbon copy.

Basically every good idea that this game presents, it took from another (better) game. Honestly this game brings nothing amazing to the table. When the "best" unique feature is a stamina system? Doesn't exactly make me scream "Oh boy, let me get my wallet," at least not to me. But maybe some people are just easier to impress than others.

But honestly, I don't expect this MMO to retain players any better than any of the other MMOs out there. It'll sell and then see a massive drop in players after the initial few months, like all the rest.

Not really GW2 to be honest. Most of those ideas have indeed been done before, even before GW2.

3way faction PvP would originate from DAoC, not GW2. The actiony-combat looks a closer match to TERA's, seeing the reticule and the lack of selecting targets, which existed before GW2 as well.

Overall I'd say it's more a wait and see how it turns out, it could easily fail but that's far from a guarantee. It definitely didn't rip off GW2 though, at least not any more than GW2 ripped off any other game.

Good think I got ArcheAge to try out. That one looks at least sandboxy enough to satisfy this old UO / SWG player...

Hagi:
Not really GW2 to be honest. Most of those ideas have indeed been done before, even before GW2.

3way faction PvP would originate from DAoC, not GW2. The actiony-combat looks a closer match to TERA's, seeing the reticule and the lack of selecting targets, which existed before GW2 as well.

Overall I'd say it's more a wait and see how it turns out, it could easily fail but that's far from a guarantee. It definitely didn't rip off GW2 though, at least not any more than GW2 ripped off any other game.

Yes, the ideas have been done before. That's always the truth of any concept.

But they didn't get three-faction combat from DAoC, I hate to break it to you. They got the idea from GW2, who likely got the idea from DAoC. When a dev team copies an idea, they don't copy ideas from older games, they do it from newer more popular games to cash in on that wave of popularity. Which is why we see a lot more action-oriented combat systems being pushed now: because TERA and GW2 popularized the idea. They existed before both of these games, but these two games made them "mainstream".

And the combat plays nothing like TERA's, you can tell just by looking at it. I know because I've actually tried TERA's combat before. TERA doesn't allow that sort of freedom of movement in that you can't move and cast at the same time, it instead utilizes a combination of out-of-skill movement, and dodges implanted into the skills....neither of which shows up in the TESO video. It's pretty clear the TESO team used a combination of Skyrim (which is where the "no targeting" idea came from, NOT from TERA) and GW2 as its inspiration for combat.

It definitely *did* rip off a lot of things from GW2. And we know this for a fact because TESO was still on the drawing board back when GW2 was showing off demos at conventions, and they were getting a lot of praise and accolades for it. TESO did what a lot of other devs did: they copied from something that was, at that time, very popular and getting lots of critical praise.

CriticKitten:

Hagi:
Not really GW2 to be honest. Most of those ideas have indeed been done before, even before GW2.

3way faction PvP would originate from DAoC, not GW2. The actiony-combat looks a closer match to TERA's, seeing the reticule and the lack of selecting targets, which existed before GW2 as well.

Overall I'd say it's more a wait and see how it turns out, it could easily fail but that's far from a guarantee. It definitely didn't rip off GW2 though, at least not any more than GW2 ripped off any other game.

Yes, the ideas have been done before. That's always the truth of any concept.

But they didn't get three-faction combat from DAoC, I hate to break it to you. They got the idea from GW2, who likely got the idea from DAoC. When a dev team copies an idea, they don't copy ideas from older games, they do it from newer more popular games to cash in on that wave of popularity. Which is why we see a lot more action-oriented combat systems being pushed now: because TERA and GW2 popularized the idea. They existed before both of these games, but these two games made them "mainstream".

And the combat plays nothing like TERA's, you can tell just by looking at it. I know because I've actually tried TERA's combat before. TERA doesn't allow that sort of freedom of movement in that you can't move and cast at the same time, it instead utilizes a combination of out-of-skill movement, and dodges implanted into the skills....neither of which shows up in the TESO video. It's pretty clear the TESO team used a combination of Skyrim (which is where the "no targeting" idea came from, NOT from TERA) and GW2 as its inspiration for combat.

It definitely *did* rip off a lot of things from GW2. And we know this for a fact because TESO was still on the drawing board back when GW2 was showing off demos at conventions, and they were getting a lot of praise and accolades for it. TESO did what a lot of other devs did: they copied from something that was, at that time, very popular and getting lots of critical praise.

Considering ESO's PvP will be happening in the actual world, just like DAoC and unlike GW2, I feel quite safe in saying that DAoC was much more of an inspiration then GW2 was. It's also based on three actual factions, just like DAoC and unlike GW2 where it's based on servers.

TERA's Archer and Berserker classes do allow movement during casting animations though, but sure the combat isn't exactly the same as TERA's. The video definitely reminds me more of TERA though than it does of GW2.

Not really seeing all the things you claimed it supposedly ripped off from GW2 though, not that you give any specifics. ESO is simply continuing a trend in MMOs, growing more dynamic and action-orientated, that's been there for several years before GW2 and is still here after GW2.

Way I see it ESO is bringing some potentially interesting things to the table that may turn out well or may also turn out disastrous, hard to tell at this point. Anyone who's saying it's a WoW-clone or a GW2-clone I find simply lacking in sufficient knowledge of MMOs.

Aaaand Zenimax killed the video. I guess those wastes of skin know it's a substandard entry into a dying market and want to get as many initial sales but cancelled right after the free month as they can.

Urgh link is down!! I was waiting all this time to come home and watch it too! This sucks!!

Hagi:
Considering ESO's PvP will be happening in the actual world, just like DAoC and unlike GW2, I feel quite safe in saying that DAoC was much more of an inspiration then GW2 was. It's also based on three actual factions, just like DAoC and unlike GW2 where it's based on servers.

TERA's Archer and Berserker classes do allow movement during casting animations though, but sure the combat isn't exactly the same as TERA's. The video definitely reminds me more of TERA though than it does of GW2.

Not really seeing all the things you claimed it supposedly ripped off from GW2 though, not that you give any specifics. ESO is simply continuing a trend in MMOs, growing more dynamic and action-orientated, that's been there for several years before GW2 and is still here after GW2.

Way I see it ESO is bringing some potentially interesting things to the table that may turn out well or may also turn out disastrous, hard to tell at this point. Anyone who's saying it's a WoW-clone or a GW2-clone I find simply lacking in sufficient knowledge of MMOs.

Someone isn't reading.

I never claimed that it's a GW2 clone. I stated (correctly), as a person who has played GW2, that it copies several of GW2's features. Which it does.

Yet I feel I must reiterate that it doesn't really matter where the idea came from originally. My original statement was as follows:

Basically every good idea that this game presents, it took from another (better) game.

Which you have misinterpreted to mean "it's a GW2 clone" simply because I compared the game to GW2, which is something that a lot of people are going to do because they're both highly-popular action-oriented combat systems in an MMO format. I expect comparisons to Skyrim, too, for obvious reasons.

Yet if you had read any of the post instead of just pretending you read it, you would have noticed that I pointed out the differences between GW2 and TESO's designs, and specifically why TESO's model was arguably inferior. I *never* claimed that the game was a clone, and suggesting that I did indicates that you didn't pay any attention to what I said.

Effectively, you've killed your own argument by ignoring what was actually said by playing straw-man tactics.

CriticKitten:

Hagi:
Considering ESO's PvP will be happening in the actual world, just like DAoC and unlike GW2, I feel quite safe in saying that DAoC was much more of an inspiration then GW2 was. It's also based on three actual factions, just like DAoC and unlike GW2 where it's based on servers.

TERA's Archer and Berserker classes do allow movement during casting animations though, but sure the combat isn't exactly the same as TERA's. The video definitely reminds me more of TERA though than it does of GW2.

Not really seeing all the things you claimed it supposedly ripped off from GW2 though, not that you give any specifics. ESO is simply continuing a trend in MMOs, growing more dynamic and action-orientated, that's been there for several years before GW2 and is still here after GW2.

Way I see it ESO is bringing some potentially interesting things to the table that may turn out well or may also turn out disastrous, hard to tell at this point. Anyone who's saying it's a WoW-clone or a GW2-clone I find simply lacking in sufficient knowledge of MMOs.

Someone isn't reading.

I never claimed that it's a GW2 clone. I stated (correctly), as a person who has played GW2, that it copies several of GW2's features. Which it does.

Yet I feel I must reiterate that it doesn't really matter where the idea came from originally. My original statement was as follows:

Basically every good idea that this game presents, it took from another (better) game.

Which you have misinterpreted to mean "it's a GW2 clone" simply because I compared the game to GW2, which is something that a lot of people are going to do because they're both highly-popular action-oriented combat systems in an MMO format. I expect comparisons to Skyrim, too, for obvious reasons.

Yet if you had read any of the post instead of just pretending you read it, you would have noticed that I pointed out the differences between GW2 and TESO's designs, and specifically why TESO's model was arguably inferior. I *never* claimed that the game was a clone, and suggesting that I did indicates that you didn't pay any attention to what I said.

Effectively, you've killed your own argument by ignoring what was actually said by playing straw-man tactics.

Way I see it ripping-off GW2 is pretty much synonymous to GW2-clone. There being inferior differences is very much part of the whole clone thing.

But sure, you didn't literally call it a GW2-clone. The point remains that ESO isn't copying any of it's features directly but is instead continuing a general trend in MMOs.

It's features are not copies of GW2 or indeed any other game. They're certainly inspired by other games, it'd be downright impossible to create a game without taking inspiration from any other game, but each feature is also very clearly it's own new incarnation.

It's certainly not a revolution rejecting everything that came before it. But's it's most certainly not stagnation either as you're implying (by saying it's copying and ripping off and worse, in an inferior way). It's simply the next evolution of a current trend in MMOs, whether it's a successful iteration time will have to prove, that's not really up to either one of us to judge.

But saying the game is merely going for an inferior copy of GW2 and other games is simply an ignorant statement to make and shows a lack of perspective on the developments that are going on within the MMO genre.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Mudcrab eating like 50 autoattacks. Quality.

I know - annoying creatures. At least they are slow and not too bright. Their pincers are sharp though.

And I can't add much more with no video... :/

Is it so bad to want a fantasy version of EVE online?

Hagi:
Way I see it ripping-off GW2 is pretty much synonymous to GW2-clone. There being inferior differences is very much part of the whole clone thing.

But sure, you didn't literally call it a GW2-clone. The point remains that ESO isn't copying any of it's features directly but is instead continuing a general trend in MMOs.

No, it's not the same thing. You're basically choosing not to read what I say in favor of arguing another, much easier point of view. Textbook straw-man.

It's features are not copies of GW2 or indeed any other game. They're certainly inspired by other games, it'd be downright impossible to create a game without taking inspiration from any other game, but each feature is also very clearly it's own new incarnation.

It copies several features from several games. The combat is GW2 mixed with Skyrim, the PvP is GW2/DAoC, the interface is very Skyrim-oriented, the quest system is akin to Skyrim and WoW, etc.

Making small tweaks to the way they worked in older games doesn't mean you made something new and innovative.

It's certainly not a revolution rejecting everything that came before it. But's it's most certainly not stagnation either as you're implying (by saying it's copying and ripping off and worse, in an inferior way). It's simply the next evolution of a current trend in MMOs, whether it's a successful iteration time will have to prove, that's not really up to either one of us to judge.

[quote]But saying the game is merely going for an inferior copy of GW2 and other games is simply an ignorant statement to make and shows a lack of perspective on the developments that are going on within the MMO genre.

Which, again, I didn't actually say.

I compared a lot of its features to GW2 because that is something a lot of people are going to do, because (again) they're both action-oriented games in the modern era. You're getting purposely indignant and suggesting I said something that I clearly did not. I can't say for sure why, but I will say that the reaction is rather typical of game fanboys, rather than people who are looking at the game from an objective point of view.

Bleh, it looks generic as hell. I still don't understand why they didn't just go with the traditional format. Does anyone know why the hell they didn't just do that instead of doing this?

synobal:
Is it so bad to want a fantasy version of EVE online?

YES.

Waiting days to upgrade one skill at a time... bloody idiocy for an MMO, that's what I say!

Plus we're already FILLED with fantasy MMOs. We need more sci-fi MMOs out there.

CriticKitten:

Hagi:
Way I see it ripping-off GW2 is pretty much synonymous to GW2-clone. There being inferior differences is very much part of the whole clone thing.

But sure, you didn't literally call it a GW2-clone. The point remains that ESO isn't copying any of it's features directly but is instead continuing a general trend in MMOs.

No, it's not the same thing. You're basically choosing not to read what I say in favor of arguing another, much easier point of view. Textbook straw-man.

Yes, I'm horribly sorry. Obviously a copy and a clone are vastly different things. It's not like they're synonyms or anything.

CriticKitten:

It's features are not copies of GW2 or indeed any other game. They're certainly inspired by other games, it'd be downright impossible to create a game without taking inspiration from any other game, but each feature is also very clearly it's own new incarnation.

It copies several features from several games. The combat is GW2 mixed with Skyrim, the PvP is GW2/DAoC, the interface is very Skyrim-oriented, the quest system is akin to Skyrim and WoW, etc.

Making small tweaks to the way they worked in older games doesn't mean you made something new and innovative.

It also doesn't make them copies, which is what I'm saying. You said something above about textbook straw-mans didn't you.

It's not something completely new and innovative. I said that. It's an evolution, a continuation.

Not a copy. Not something completely new. A continuation of an existing trend.

CriticKitten:

It's certainly not a revolution rejecting everything that came before it. But's it's most certainly not stagnation either as you're implying (by saying it's copying and ripping off and worse, in an inferior way). It's simply the next evolution of a current trend in MMOs, whether it's a successful iteration time will have to prove, that's not really up to either one of us to judge.

[quote]But saying the game is merely going for an inferior copy of GW2 and other games is simply an ignorant statement to make and shows a lack of perspective on the developments that are going on within the MMO genre.

Which, again, I didn't actually say.

I compared a lot of its features to GW2 because that is something a lot of people are going to do, because (again) they're both action-oriented games in the modern era. You're getting purposely indignant and suggesting I said something that I clearly did not. I can't say for sure why, but I will say that the reaction is rather typical of game fanboys, rather than people who are looking at the game from an objective point of view.

A comparison is fine. But you're not making a comparison.

You're saying it's copying and ripping off GW2. And that the differences that do exist are merely inferior variations on ESO's part. Which I find an ignorant statement to make.

ESO clearly and obviously isn't a copy or a clone. It's features are not copies and clones. Neither is it a completely new and innovative revolution.

It's a next step in an ongoing trend. Whether it's a step in the right direction only time can tell, it may very well fail. But to anyone following the developments of the genre it should be pretty clear that it's not a repetition (synonyms include: copy, clone, rip-off etc.) of previous steps.

synobal:
Is it so bad to want a fantasy version of EVE online?

Maybe you should try out Wurm Online.

The combat is about as thrilling as in EVE, and it's even more player driven! :-)

Didn't Susan do a preview piece a few weeks back where she said that it was not your bog standard MMO? Seems strange that there would be such a large difference in the 2 takes on the game within such a short time (especially when the later seems much worse)

Chessrook44:

synobal:
Is it so bad to want a fantasy version of EVE online?

YES.

Waiting days to upgrade one skill at a time... bloody idiocy for an MMO, that's what I say!

Plus we're already FILLED with fantasy MMOs. We need more sci-fi MMOs out there.

Meh anyone who has played eve knows that 'leveling up your skills' is not the primary goal in the game. Your skills are just things so you can be better at a particular aspect of the game. Sure having low skill points sucks but once you're competent in what ever area of the game you're interested in you typically are just training for an extra few percent in something.

The problem is most people don't know how to focus on a goal and work towards it, instead they bounce all over the place and generally end up sucking at everything.

Corven:

Hagi:
Actually pleasantly surprised by how much it's not a generic fantasy MMO.

- There's manual blocking and it seemed quite effective. In the fight he died damage was noticeably reduced when he blocked.
- There's no tab-targeting, although there does seem to be some aim-assistance.
- First-person mode is in and animations likely to follow.
- No quest markers seem to be present, especially no floating exclamation or question marks.
- Full movement during combat, no standing there and hitting each other in turns.
- Stamina-based sprinting is in, which hopefully is not used only for sprinting meaning it'll be an actual choice.
- ES style stealth is in, no turning invisible (besides spells that may be included) and hopefully taking some actual skill.
- ES style alchemy seems to be in, judging by the ingredients found on the starting rats. Hopefully this means all ingredients will be useful and not just high-level ones.
- Challenging? I must admit it's been a very, very long time since I've ever died in the starting zone of a MMO. The tester seemed to die easily when taking on multiple opponents and not doing much to avoid damage besides blocking once.

Certainly many things look like utter shit, the UI especially. But those are all the type of things that can be, and usually are, improved during alpha and beta stages.

The things that can't, the basic combat system, seems to be in working order and actually looks quite fun.

I'll definitely continue to keep an eye on this, it looks more and more promising.

It's kinda sad that so far besides your comment, pretty much everyone else has decried this game as a WoW clone especially since most of the information we have about the game show's that it is more in line with Guild wars 2 in terms of it's gameplay mechanics.

It's why you can't release footage like that before the game shows all it has to offer. If you just show people anything similar to WoW everyone jumps the bandwagon of calling it a WoW without even playing it.

Bethesda should have kept that leak from happening. It seems like everyone gets an "unintentional" leak.

Hagi:
Yes, I'm horribly sorry. Obviously a copy and a clone are vastly different things. It's not like they're synonyms or anything.

Saying that it's copying features from another game is NOT the same as saying that it's an exact clone of another game.

I shouldn't have to explain to you why you're wrong here. I would hope that it's obvious. But since it obviously isn't, here's what you're basically suggesting that I'm saying:

"Every Mario game is a copy of the previous one because they all star Mario."

And here's what I'm actually saying:

"New Super Mario Bros Wii U is copying a lot of the design structure of New Super Mario Bros Wii."

See the difference? I sure hope so, because I don't think I can make it any simpler.

It also doesn't make them copies, which is what I'm saying. You said something above about textbook straw-mans didn't you.

It's not something completely new and innovative. I said that. It's an evolution, a continuation.

Not a copy. Not something completely new. A continuation of an existing trend.

So if I were to manufacture a blanket with sleeves, added a special pocket to it that allows you to hold beer cans in it, and call it a "Beerie", that's not a blatant attempt at copying the appeal of the Snuggie, right?

There are varying degrees to the term "copy". One of which includes blatant rip-offs that retain much of the same design structure as the previous product with the intention of selling it to the same market. That's what TESO is doing. Ergo it is completely accurate to call its recycling of features from other games "copying".

And another thing that drives me nuts is this notion of "evolution". People kept calling GW2 a "revolution" in gaming, which it wasn't. Nor would I honestly call it an "evolution" either. You could argue that it evolved some features of older games and made them more interesting, but it's hard to argue that GW2 is any more original in terms of its gameplay than games that came before it. Where I think GW2 manages to diversify itself is its unique flavoring in terms of the world, and in how it approaches content creation and implementation. This is something not visible in TESO, whose most "unique" features came from Skyrim.

A comparison is fine. But you're not making a comparison.

You're saying it's copying and ripping off GW2. And that the differences that do exist are merely inferior variations on ESO's part. Which I find an ignorant statement to make.

Are you actually attempting to argue that the comparison in my first post wasn't actually a comparison?

....right, I think this argument has already run its course, if that's the case. Because there is no real way to respond to the ridiculousness of that argument that doesn't involve lowering the intellectual level of the discussion to petty insults and more logical fallacies.

ESO clearly and obviously isn't a copy or a clone. It's features are not copies and clones. Neither is it a completely new and innovative revolution.

The game itself isn't, no, but for the final time, I never said it was a copy or clone of another game. Stop arguing against the straw-man. This discussion will never get anywhere if you can't stay on topic.

I said that it copies many features from previous games, including several from GW2, which is a correct statement you cannot possibly hope to refute.

I'll tell you one thing that it's definitely not, though: an Elder Scrolls game. While you could argue that Skyrim still somewhat resembled the standard conventions of the ES franchise, this game could very easily be relabeled with names not found in ES canon and no one would notice the difference.

It's a next step in an ongoing trend. Whether it's a step in the right direction only time can tell, it may very well fail. But to anyone following the developments of the genre it should be pretty clear that it's not a repetition (synonyms include: copy, clone, rip-off etc.) of previous steps.

No, it's not. It's a duplication of many features from other recent games in an attempt to capitalize on their popularity. And the rest of this thread seems to recognize that fact very clearly.

It's up here:

http://realgamernewz.com/elder-scrolls-online-april-2013-18-minute-gameplay-footage-leaked/#comment-97751

And yes, it looks like a very generic MMORPG. I mean, I thought I was watching 2008's Age of Conan when they went to the character creation and the dock area. The only thing relative to Elder Scrolls was the lizard lady on the hsip, that's about it. Holy crap, it's junk. And quest NPC's?! Those are GONE! Games have killed them with Dynamic Events and automatic story quests. Mob tagging? What is this, 2005?! UGH!

I think Guild Wars 2 is much more engaging. In the first 5 minutes of that game, you're in a story driven area to kill some bad guys, help a main character in the story arch, and defeat a gigantic boss. In TESO? You go from a boat to a docks area and kill some crabs, scorpions, dogs, and other tiny insignificant junk. In Guild Wars 2, you fight Risen zombies, mad scientist Inquest members, frozen Sons of Svoniar, flame shaman of the Flame Legion, and human spies and gangs...all in the starting zones of each race.

CriticKitten:
One of which includes blatant rip-offs that retain much of the same design structure as the previous product with the intention of selling it to the same market. That's what TESO is doing. Ergo it is completely accurate to call its recycling of features from other games "copying".

How is that not the exact definition of a clone?

You can continue denying it all you want, accusing me of straw-mans, but that's calling it a clone by any reasonable definition of the word.

Pick one, you're either making this game out to be a blatant rip-off from previous games with nothing truly unique to bring to the table AKA a clone or you admit that it's adding a new twist to existing mechanics, it may not be a successful twist only time can tell that, but it's something different.

But please, stop dancing around the point. You can't claim you're not saying it's a clone in one sentence and then claim it's a blatant rip-off in the next, at the very least try to maintain some internal consistency in your posts.

Pick a position and stick to it. Don't suddenly switch positions every time I bring up a counter-argument and claim you didn't say anything like that in the first place, it's tiresome...

Hagi:
Pick a position and stick to it. Don't suddenly switch positions every time I bring up a counter-argument and claim you didn't say anything like that in the first place, it's tiresome...

You don't actually have a counter-argument. Your entire argument is summed up as "it's not a clone, you moron" even though I've pointed out that I never claimed it was.

You keep insisting that I've said the game is a clone, and I haven't. Anyone who looks at this thread can see that. You haven't presented *anything* to suggest that the game is "the next step" you claim it is, whereas I went into an actual comparison of the game against GW2 and other games and illustrated why I thought it was inferior. I've put together a much more coherent argument than you ever did.

I do agree though, this argument is tiring, in that I'm tired to trying to explain to you why you're wrong. So I'll go ahead and stop trying. It's become rather obvious that you're only going to see what you want to see, and will ignore every other point brought up to keep bashing on one thing and one thing only.

Feel free to keep defending the game as the "next big thing" if you wish, I don't particularly care. It'll eventually bomb as all the other "next big things" have, GW2 included. Probably earlier than most, in fact, because it doesn't actually bring anything new to the table and it's not going to retain much of the ES audience, who are more eager for the sequel to Skyrim than for this game.

synobal:
Is it so bad to want a fantasy version of EVE online?

YES.

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