Pirating Game Dev Tycoon Dooms Players to be Ruined By Piracy

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I wish more games would do this. Some pirate sites list new games on release day, or even sooner. Talk about efficiency. A DRM like this which glitches the game half-way still lets you play enough to figure out how much you like the game. And if save games would work on the purchased version too, then you wouldn't loose your progress either. Plus, it's a great way to wink at the player and say "we know you've stole this...".

As for the game, I think that every pirate should play this (cracked or not). I've only played it for 2 days and I can't describe the feeling of waiting for those awful game reviews and then trying to survive on the first week sales. However the game isn't perfect. I wish it had a lot more info about what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right. I sometimes pump tons of money and effort in some games only to have them receive awful reviews and bankrupting me (not from pirates, lol). Also, the game never limits your engine to the console. Advanced 3d graphics and steering wheel support for the Gameboy? WTF?

karamazovnew:
I wish more games would do this. Some pirate sites list new games on release day, or even sooner. Talk about efficiency. A DRM like this which glitches the game half-way still lets you play enough to figure out how much you like the game. And if save games would work on the purchased version too, then you wouldn't loose your progress either. Plus, it's a great way to wink at the player and say "we know you've stole this...".

As for the game, I think that every pirate should play this (cracked or not). I've only played it for 2 days and I can't describe the feeling of waiting for those awful game reviews and then trying to survive on the first week sales. However the game isn't perfect. I wish it had a lot more info about what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right. I sometimes pump tons of money and effort in some games only to have them receive awful reviews and bankrupting me (not from pirates, lol). Also, the game never limits your engine to the console. Advanced 3d graphics and steering wheel support for the Gameboy? WTF?

There is no DRM in this. They simply put a edited version of the game for download.

Also, this game is a shameless ripoff off Game Dev Story.

ResonanceSD:

Cecilo:

So I do argue that Piracy numbers are not lost sale numbers, they are numbers that you were never going to get regardless of what you do.

So? That doesn't make it any more legal. It's still a crime.

Well, that really depends on where you live.

Jonathan Braun:

Akalabeth:

Dude,
I got an meagre allowance for doing chores around the house. I saved up this allowance to both rent and purchase Sega Master System games. Only bought one game every one or two months, but I worked and saved to do it.

I also shared a paper route and flyer route with my brother. I saved up my money for more than a year, and in grade 7 or 8 I purchased a 486 computer for about 1400 dollars which at the time, was a shitload of money. Then I saved up more money to buy games for said computer.

Being a teenager is no excuse. There are ways to make money and there are ways to pay for your games if you actually MAKE AN EFFORT.

You sound just like those older generations who might go "I walked up the hill both ways, in a snowstorm to get to school" and that that younger generation should just be happy they get any education at all. This attitude does not help as it refuses to deal with any legitimate complaint or point the younger generation brought up and merely slanders all who didn't do as the older generation are "lazy and entitled".

You can colour it however you want but facts are facts. Fact being that a younger person can still find ways to work to make money and to then buy games legitimately.

Entitled:

maninahat:

snip

No, that's not just it.

Even if you assume that the sales could have been doubled by eliminating piracy, what would happen next?

Say, this one has 600 customes and 9400 other players.
By killing piracy, it would have 1200 sales, and no more players.

A playerbase of 1200, versus a playerbase of 10.000. Which one of them has more chances for future viral growth? Even if you assume that for the second, out of the virally gained new players 94% continue to be pirates, it's not improbable, that a vew months later, the 600 outgrows the 1200, that has no such synergic help.

Going by this example, to make a profit from the pirates, the devs need to obtain 20,000 players to beat the 1200 paying customers. One sounds like an easier target than the other, especially for something like a meagre indie game. Many games only have niche appeal, and don't expect to become viral in the first place. They certainly don't want to depend on it as a sales technique.

There is plenty of anecdotal example of that pattern. For example, just look at how in the MMO market everything other than WoW constantly failed to catch on, as their unavoidable subscription turned their playerbases into little insular communities, while the current F2P market has no such problem, because the 90% freeloaders are allowed in.

The F2P model derives money from those freeloaders in a different way than the pattern you described. Once they are personally invested in the game, people are far more willing to pay up when cash is required to progress beyond a certain point. This is especially the case when the free, vanilla game becomes increasingly harder and more frustrating to progress. This doesn't happen with a normal pirated game, because there usually isn't a pay wall or a pay to win system, and once you've downloaded the game, you can have a full experience. Technically, you could argue that Dev Tycoon use a F2P model: they provided a free torrent, but created a barrier within the game, encouraging the player to pay for the full version of the game because they can't get the full experience.

For a non-gaming example, the classic story is how Friendship is Magic got viral thanks to how easily it could be uploaded to youtube, and years later it resulted in lots of iTunes episode sales. Not even necessarily from the same 4chan users who first watched the youtube videos, but from the ginormous fandom that kept snowballing on and on after them, thanks to the free access and the magic of sharing. :P

That does prove your point to an extent. The problem with FiM, and other tv shows (like Game of Thrones) is that they were only of limited availability, and being able to watch them depended on whether you were willing to pay out for hefty network packages, and whether you lived in the right country. Had potential audiences been provided with better access to the shows in the first place, they might not have necessarily resorted to youtube uploads. The show could have easily still gone viral if that were the case - plenty of non-pirated stuff goes viral all the time (especially books).

Availability should generally prove less of a problem with games, which by their nature, often rely on web distribution in the first place. The "whole piracy is a service problem" reflects the importance of decent, wide-spread, easy distribution.

maninahat:

Going by this example, to make a profit from the pirates, the devs need to obtain 20,000 players to beat the 1200 paying customers. One sounds like an easier target than the other, especially for something like a meagre indie game. Many games only have niche appeal, and don't expect to become viral in the first place. They certainly don't want to depend on it as a sales technique.

Maybe. Then again, there is no real way to compare a game's sales to it's alternate world counterpart, so these are all made up numbers, both the ones about the potential pirates converted by DRM, and about the pirates converting people by word of mouth.

The point is, as long us we don't have such data, the idea that piracy harms industries, is as much of a gut intuition as the opposite, and theoretically both could happen.

maninahat:

The F2P model derives money from those freeloaders in a different way than the pattern you described.

Yes, they do, but my point was not to analyze their whole business model and it's profitability, but to point out their sheer numbers and audience growth, compared to MMOs that *did* turn away piracy, and ended up shrinking after a few months, for want of a fandom of millions.

I only selected out F2P games to begin with because they are a similar genre, multiplayer and all, but they could be replaced with any genre that grew more quickly than it's server authentication requiring counterpart.

maninahat:

Had potential audiences been provided with better access to the shows in the first place, they might not have necessarily resorted to youtube uploads.

Or rather, based on the omnipresence of piracy, they *would have* resorted to it, the question is whether that still would have led to the sudden growth of the fandom, or then it would have cannibalized sales.

maninahat:

Availability should generally prove less of a problem with games, which by their nature, often rely on web distribution in the first place. The "whole piracy is a service problem" reflects the importance of decent, wide-spread, easy distribution.

I don't like that claim, because honestly, piracy will always offer a better service by providing a free access. And while many people claim that in a cynical way, I mean to say, that the services that accept the fact that their playerbase largely consist of freeloader, and then go on with their job and financially rely on the rest of the players, will ultimately provide a better service than the ones who might resist the urge to be as much of a douchbag as the big publishers, but still ends up obsessing over who downloads what.

This is fantastic. I love that they did this. I also hope they can profit at the game. It's smart that they realize that they can't keep the game off of bit-torrent.

Honestly, I'd like to see game companies be able to take aggressive actions in this manner. I'd like companies be able to flood the market with fake code and faulty versions of the game as well as take other actions to report pirates so that they don't feel like they have to force as much DRM down the throats of legal purchasers.

JazzJack2:

Piracy leads to more people playing your game, and if your game is good then they will not only gain trust in you as a developer (leading to much better sales for future games) but they will help market your game through word of mouth. Look at minecraft, not only is it one of the most easily pirated games of all time it is also one of the most successful indie games of all time. Why? Because piracy helped send it to almost viral like popularity.

Don't get me wrong, piracy is not nearly as much of a problem as some people like to make it out to be, and in some cases it's even completely justifiable. However, claiming that you're helping a developer (this goes doubly for indie devs) by freeloading off of their product is just silly. Most every software pirate on the web will swear up and down that they actually buy the games they pirate if they like them; unfortunately, the numbers suggest otherwise.

If you're going to pirate a game, call it what it is, don't try to sugarcoat it.

Steven Bogos:
Funnily enough, my captcha says 'moot point'.

And it IS funny, because about...now...I'll bet someone just cracked it. With respect to the guys who made the game, your enemies see that as one big "Challenge Accepted!" and rip it apart. Welcome to the internet.

Akalabeth:

Jonathan Braun:

Akalabeth:

Dude,
I got an meagre allowance for doing chores around the house. I saved up this allowance to both rent and purchase Sega Master System games. Only bought one game every one or two months, but I worked and saved to do it.

I also shared a paper route and flyer route with my brother. I saved up my money for more than a year, and in grade 7 or 8 I purchased a 486 computer for about 1400 dollars which at the time, was a shitload of money. Then I saved up more money to buy games for said computer.

Being a teenager is no excuse. There are ways to make money and there are ways to pay for your games if you actually MAKE AN EFFORT.

You sound just like those older generations who might go "I walked up the hill both ways, in a snowstorm to get to school" and that that younger generation should just be happy they get any education at all. This attitude does not help as it refuses to deal with any legitimate complaint or point the younger generation brought up and merely slanders all who didn't do as the older generation are "lazy and entitled".

You can colour it however you want but facts are facts. Fact being that a younger person can still find ways to work to make money and to then buy games legitimately.

But... this idea only covers the excuse that people don't have any money. What about when developers put in DRM and the like? Permanent online requirements? Having to re-buy a game to work on a new system? Having to re-buy a game because it was broken? What if people just want to try the game out before they buy it, but don't offer a demo, or the demo doesn't give a good "feel" of the game? It seems kind of silly to group pirates into the "Poor and Lazy Department" especially when there are so many other reasons someone might pirate something.

I bought the game yesterday, I like to think I paid four bucks for the game and four dollars for a good laugh.

Jesus, pirating a game from a small indie game company that only charges eight bucks: How much of a cheap piece of garbage do you have to be to do that?

Additionally: My Realms of Lore Quest game I made only got a 6.5! What the hell, Green Heart!? The World Design side bar was maxed out! It had 46 Hype!

Desert Punk:

ResonanceSD:
a DRM free game with a demo as well. There's absolutely no justification to pirate this game.

You know, I cant help but laugh every time you call it DRM free, when its DRM system triggers the game to fuck over pirates...

Sure the DRM may not actively fuck with the paying customers, but it is DRM all the same.

That's not the official demo

http://www.greenheartgames.com/game-dev-tycoon-downloads/

This is

Thanks for playing, you get 0 points.

Jonathan Braun:

Akalabeth:

Dude,
I got an meagre allowance for doing chores around the house. I saved up this allowance to both rent and purchase Sega Master System games. Only bought one game every one or two months, but I worked and saved to do it.

I also shared a paper route and flyer route with my brother. I saved up my money for more than a year, and in grade 7 or 8 I purchased a 486 computer for about 1400 dollars which at the time, was a shitload of money. Then I saved up more money to buy games for said computer.

Being a teenager is no excuse. There are ways to make money and there are ways to pay for your games if you actually MAKE AN EFFORT.

You sound just like those older generations who might go "I walked up the hill both ways, in a snowstorm to get to school" and that that younger generation should just be happy they get any education at all. This attitude does not help as it refuses to deal with any legitimate complaint or point the younger generation brought up and merely slanders all who didn't do as the older generation are "lazy and entitled".

I don't think "back in my day, we actually paid for things" is such a bad thing to say.

ResonanceSD:

blackrave:

ResonanceSD:
[
This entire post boils down to

"i had a computer but no money for games, so I pirated them because I decided I was entitled to luxury goods and services for free".

"Entitled"?
No.
I pretty much knew that what I did was bad.
But it was either this or NOTHING.
Because I can guarantee that if not for pirated games early on, I wouldn't be spending money on the games now.
Because I wouldn't be playing games
Hell, most probably I wouldn't be Escapee

P.S. Also, the danger compressing things is that you can lose important things in the process. For example the entire life of any individual can be boiled down to "person was born and then this person died".

So, what makes you think you had a right to them in the first place if not "entitlement"?

Because I don't consider media as luxury goods to begin with
Sure, books, games, movies and music aren't primary necessity goods
But they are important for mental well-being of a person
Especially for developing person (such as child or teen)
So I would categorize media as secondary necessity goods
If you can buy such items, excellent, buy them
If you can't... eventually you will find other ways to obtain them
And what makes pirating media so easy and excusable, is that its not exactly stealing.
At the end of the day it is just copying.
Even if society condemns it.
[One guy went as far as claiming that Jesus was one of the first pirates. He took 5 bread loaves and 2 fishes and distributed those amongst 5000. Not an argument, but funny observation nonetheless :D ]

Akalabeth:

Your logic is completely flawed for a number of reasons:
1. You assume that the developers you directly stole from in the past will benefit from your change of practice in the future. This is not the case. Many of the games you played illegally in your childhood were no doubt made by developers who are no longer in business. Developers are not a single entity. They are individual people in individual companies and stealing from one is not justified by purchasing from a completely different developer TEN YEARS LATER.

Developers don't give a shit if you buy games ten years from now. They give a shit about paying the bills NOW, and feeding their kids NOW, and being able to survive NOW.

Do you recall the Breath of Death VII devs complaining about how they weren't going to get paid by microsoft until end of first quarter? But you're saying that, as a pirate, developers should like you because ten years from now they might get money as a consequence of the game you played illegally? Or might get money ten years from now from someone in similar circumstances as you? Absurd.

I guess you aren't big fan of gardening or farming? ;)

I don't know about individuals, but companies are still here and doing well (more or less)
But like I said it was either nothing with a chance of improvement, or plain nothing

Akalabeth:

2. You also fail to understand that people are creatures of habit. And if someone starts to steal media at a young age, they will likely be inclined to continue stealing as they grow older. When's the last time you played a game illegally and didn't buy it? Last week? Last month?

Almost 2 years ago
DNF
I really waited for the game (I'm still quite a fan of Duke)
I was about to buy it, but reviews were "unflattering" (lets use this word, ok?)
So I decided to use tested method of trying the game first
Best saved money ever.
Now I mostly watch walkthroughs a bit before finally deciding to purchase or not.
But walkthroughs are somewhat lacking (mostly when it comes to controls, game optimization and stuff like that)

Akalabeth:

Fucking joke man. Quit trying to justify your past and probable current practices.
If it was a mistake, and if you know better now, then own up to that. At best you can say it was unjustified then regardless of circumstances, but now that circumstances have changed, you pay for every game you play.

But don't tell me for a second that your past example proves that piracy is justified and that developer that you stole from benefit. Go tell that to the guy whose company shut down or who got laid off because they didn't get enough money to make the next game and he had to switch careers working as an accountant and hating his life as a result.

I'm sorry random unknown person on the internet, that I can't get your justification
Oh, wait a sec, no I'm not :)
Since I'm not trying to justify what I did
I just use my own example to explain that piracy isn't that black&white
There are plenty shades of gray in between (and occasionally even few polygons of brown)
And there most probably are plenty of other examples out there when piracy was the only way

Akalabeth:

Except I'm not suggesting my personal experience is the norm, as you were, I'm demonstrating how yours is not. I'm countering your example by demonstrating that a person of that age can buy games and can support the industry.

But... I WASN'T EITHER shocking, isn't it?
I'm glad that some of my peers were able to buy games, I really am
But I wasn't one of those kids, sadly
You claimed that it was due to lack of trying hard enough, then you mentioned 2 examples of getting money
Fair, but those very examples proved that you really have no idea that there are other environments for a person to grow up
I assume you live in US or Canada, since as far as I know newspaper delivery by kids is a thing only there (I might be wrong though)
So is there any point of explaining to you that not anyone gets payed for doing housechores?
(since the logic is that you are repaying for a roof over head, food, clothes and other expenses)
That housechores for some people are not limited to washing dishes and throwing out garbage?
That there are really poor environments where an adult can't find paying job?
I think not.

Akalabeth:

The fact that you cannot afford to play games does not justify you playing them illegally.
You could have gone out and bought Dungeons and Dragons and played all the "games" you want for 3 years for 30-40 dollars. All the way through college. Live within your means.

Once again, NOT about justification.
And once again your example is laughable due to different environment.

And once again I must assume, that you're not a big fan of charity and loans?

Akalabeth:

blackrave:

We don't live in ideal world
We live in a shitty world

I don't subscribe to such cynicism.

Someone would say "realism", but that's a matter of opinion, isn't it?

Akalabeth:

You're right, something is always better than nothing.
So the next time you pay NOTHING to play someone's game illegally, REMEMBER THAT.

Because I'm sure the developers would rather get SOMETHING for their 3+ years of work from you, than nothing.

And next time you bring up your sad sob story of squeeking through college, imagine yourself in that same situation being a start-up developer in his mom's basement, living with the same clothes, paying off his computer loan, and then imagine instead of working on a degree working on a video game for four years and when you finally release you see that a find that a few people buy it and ten times as many people pirate it.

Then go email a developer who's in that situation and tell him your sad tale and tell him how piracy is good because 10 years down the line those people will actually spend money, or tell him how "you pay for some games you like, and some people who pirated his game and liked it might do the same" or whatever sad rational you can dream up to prop up your conscience and see, just see how he reacts.

I almost shed a tear, ALMOST!
But once again this is shitty world.
And would such developer feel better if nobody would even bother to pirate his/her game?
Because if your game is being pirated, you did something right.
If your game isn't pirated then you just produced shit.
Harsh reality, sad reality, disappointing reality, but still reality.

You seem to know what most developers think.
So please explain to my thick skull what case would make developer more happier
A)Sales:1000/Piracy:10000
B)Sales:1000/Piracy:5
In this time don't counterattack, don't respond with a question, and don't invent some idealized answer.
Simply answer A or B, ok?

blackrave:
All the snip

You seem to know what most developers think.
So please explain to my thick skull what case would make developer more happier
A)Sales:1000/Piracy:10000
B)Sales:1000/Piracy:5
In this time don't counterattack, don't respond with a question, and don't invent some idealized answer.
Simply answer A or B, ok?

Problem with this essay is that the developer is claiming a Sales: 6/ Piracy 94 figure.

So, yeah.

Also, fuck what you "consider" to be luxuries. You said it yourself, they're non-essential. Therefore, by definition, they are luxuries.

I must thank you for quoting me at the start of your epic poem, it meant i didn't have to go hunting for my section in the middle like some other poor bastard.

Sorry to have to tell you this blackraven, but you "lost" (if you can call what that these shouting matches filled to the brim with hyperbole and logical fallicies that these anti-piracy people engage in actual debates) before you ever began. Like just about everybody here that argues against piracy, Resonance had this postion that "piracy is a crime therefore it's wrong" hammered into his whole life, decided it was completely correct without any leeway whatsoever, and decided to defend it to the death long before he saw this thread. Any reasonable person would have at least admitted that piracy is an understandable thing to do even if they don't agree with it within a couple posts. You might as well try to reason with a rock for all it'll accomplish.

While I do applaud this guy for his sense of irony, I have to wonder if he recognizes how much piracy has helped this game (and other games like it) sell. Other than the obvious "his game wouldn't be newsworthy otherwise" bit.

Today, one day after release, our usage stats look like this:

Genuine version: 214 users

Cracked version: at least 3104 users

Take a look. Without piracy, around two hundred players. With piracy, over thirty-three hundred. Keep in mind, this is an indie developer, and this is their first game. Nobody's ever heard of Green Heart Games before, ever. At this point, "total number people who know that the game exists" is a MUCH more important number than "total number of sales", because these things spread by word of mouth. People who like the game tell their friends, and they tell their friends, etc, and the more people play the game, the more sales there will be. And this happens MUCH faster if you get high numbers early.

Obviously, if nobody knows about a game or its developer, then nobody's going to know about it the next day either. It takes longer than a day for a whole lot of people to hear about a game, decide to check it out, decide to buy it, play it, and tell people they know about it. I would be surprised to get even one sale the day after release, much less a couple hundred. On the other hand, pirates don't need to learn about good games by word of mouth, because they can find them themselves, and they can (and, according to this article, did, in this case) find a game and decide to download and play it within the minute that it's uploaded. Pirates get things for free, so they're perfectly happy with actively seeking out and playing games they've never heard of because, unlike non-pirates, they aren't negatively impacted when they get a dud. The rest of us have free demos, and that's excellent and really does help a lot, but the thing is, non-pirates are more careful about game choice and are just much less likely to go looking for games in the first place.

Of course, with big triple-A titles, this doesn't really apply, since those games have their own advertising. But as an indie developer, the most important thing is always for people to know about your game, and I think pirates are a very important part of that processes, at least initially. I don't really have any moral stance on the act of piracy one way or the other, except that I would politely ask anyone who pirates a game and likes it to show some support for its creators by spending some money on it, but as far as indie development goes, I for one would be absolutely thrilled to find out that a game I wrote had a high piracy rate.

Dark Souls did something similar. Maxed out Dark Knights would swarm and dog pile you.

Jmp_man:

But... this idea only covers the excuse that people don't have any money. What about when developers put in DRM and the like? Permanent online requirements? Having to re-buy a game to work on a new system? Having to re-buy a game because it was broken? What if people just want to try the game out before they buy it, but don't offer a demo, or the demo doesn't give a good "feel" of the game? It seems kind of silly to group pirates into the "Poor and Lazy Department" especially when there are so many other reasons someone might pirate something.

Dude DRM has been in computer games as long as computer games have existed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjEbpMgiL7U

This video is super cool by the way if you've not seen it. LGR rocks

As for your other ideas:
1. Lack of demo - wait for reviews. Wait for Let's Plays. Often I can look at a game being played on youtube and know whether it's something I'll enjoy or not.

2. Permanent online, obtrusive DRM - don't buy it.

And to me all these reasons come down to simple rationalizations to avoid the facts: "I don't want to pay to play this game, so I'm going to come up with these reasons in order to tell myself that not paying is okay".

There are hundreds of games out there. If you find reasons like always online or whatever to not play a certain game, then go and play a different one! No one has time to play all the games.

blackrave:

I almost shed a tear, ALMOST!
But once again this is shitty world.
And would such developer feel better if nobody would even bother to pirate his/her game?
Because if your game is being pirated, you did something right.
If your game isn't pirated then you just produced shit.
Harsh reality, sad reality, disappointing reality, but still reality.

No, I'm sorry but this is not a shitty world, the only thing that's shitty here is your justifications and your perspective.

I'm sorry that you're unable to empathize with someone who's working his ass off to create a game that you feel entitled to steal. You talk to me about charity? You know that charity depends upon giving a shit for someone else? And yet you come up with all sorts of rationalizations why giving a shit for a developer is something you don't need to do? That you feel entitled not to do? Of having not done?

You think a developer should feel grateful people are stealing his game? What world do you live in? Maybe you should feel grateful when someone makes sexist remarks to your girlfriend. After all, if no one openly comments on how great her ass is it must mean she's not very attractive right? That's the sort of logic you're dealing.

Discussion over.

Akalabeth:

Jmp_man:

But... this idea only covers the excuse that people don't have any money. What about when developers put in DRM and the like? Permanent online requirements? Having to re-buy a game to work on a new system? Having to re-buy a game because it was broken? What if people just want to try the game out before they buy it, but don't offer a demo, or the demo doesn't give a good "feel" of the game? It seems kind of silly to group pirates into the "Poor and Lazy Department" especially when there are so many other reasons someone might pirate something.

And to me all these reasons come down to simple rationalizations to avoid the facts: "I don't want to pay to play this game, so I'm going to come up with these reasons in order to tell myself that not paying is okay".

There are hundreds of games out there. If you find reasons like always online or whatever to not play a certain game, then go and play a different one! No one has time to play all the games.

You've kinda proven his point just there. I made a rant about this same thing earlier that all that happens when this thing is brought up is the same crap as usual. I like being proven right too you know.

How is it a fact that everyone pirates to get around paying for the product when statistically the chance is higher that a pirate will buy more games than a person who never pirated? Logically speaking, a pirate proves one thing by his existence, he likes games, he plays many games and he enjoys it. He is the market. Now all you have to do is to get the non-paying pirate into a paying customer. And boy if you think thats easy or you can go with that bullshit logic and morality then you are in for a treat.

Lets consider a few facts, before the internet, or before it became really big. Piracy existed and i dont mean some swashbucklers on a ship. Back then, you traded copies, burned games with Nero and the like, borrowed from friends (you are enjoying a game without paying for it, same concept) and the list goes on. Then the Internet hits, suddenly everything is online and all connected. Just 10 years ago, the Internet was pretty vital to alot of things, basicly everyone had or could get a connection. Not a fast or reliable one mind you, but it was there. That was before draconian DRM existed. Now do the math, if piracy is older than DRM, and DRM only came about recently, then why hasnt the Industry imploded in the time between those two points?

Evidently, because piracy is not as big a problem as you, or publishers, seem to think. To a publisher, regardless whether or not a game is pirated, it makes a good scapegoat. Say their sale expectations fall short. What to do? Admit their game sucked? No, blame the consumer, blame the dirty pirates. Obviously 5 million copies didnt sell because pirates. That is their logic and alot of people jump onto that same logic. If piracy was as bad as they claim, if second hand was as bad as they claim, the industry wouldnt make millions.

So lets get to "pirates", you know, "the poor folks" as you call em. With them you have very many subgroups, they pirate yes, but for different reasons. Is it fair to say that all of them are false? No. Because all you do is make a blanket statement, declaring any and all objections to anything false to claim the moral highground that you have no right to. The game doesnt run on your computer and you can not get a refund: Is pirating to avoid buying another non-functioning product right or wrong?
The game is too expensive, i can not buy it right now but i want to play it: Is pirating right or wrong when you buy the product later anyway?

These are actually reasons as to why people pirate. It's two legitimate ones. Of course you have the usual reasons of pirating because they can, pirating because they want to send a message to the company, pirating because the game sucks and isnt worth the money. Those 3 there? Thats bullshit. If you want to play a game and are in a position to buy it? Buy it. There is no reason not to. If you think its gonna suck, dont buy it. Sending a message doesnt work because all they do is make more shit that way.

The two i mentioned up there though? I call those legitimate. I mean the pirate buys the game later, so he buys a legitimate copy because he couldnt when the game was released. Or he wanted to test it first to avoid getting a game he can not run on his computer. How is that rationalizing anything? Why is it okay to buy a game that does not work, not being able to get your money back, but pirating it first to see if it works is wrong? You can't really group them all together and think the generalization sticks. Thats about as logical as saying "All black people like chicken." What if you meet a black guy that doesnt?

Akalabeth:

blackrave:

I almost shed a tear, ALMOST!
But once again this is shitty world.
And would such developer feel better if nobody would even bother to pirate his/her game?
Because if your game is being pirated, you did something right.
If your game isn't pirated then you just produced shit.
Harsh reality, sad reality, disappointing reality, but still reality.

No, I'm sorry but this is not a shitty world, the only thing that's shitty here is your justifications and your perspective.

I'm sorry that you're unable to empathize with someone who's working his ass off to create a game that you feel entitled to steal. You talk to me about charity? You know that charity depends upon giving a shit for someone else? And yet you come up with all sorts of rationalizations why giving a shit for a developer is something you don't need to do? That you feel entitled not to do? Of having not done?

You think a developer should feel grateful people are stealing his game? What world do you live in? Maybe you should feel grateful when someone makes sexist remarks to your girlfriend. After all, if no one openly comments on how great her ass is it must mean she's not very attractive right? That's the sort of logic you're dealing.

Discussion over.

Except he pirated games in his youth, so.. again why should ANYONE care about the fact that he is having HIS game pirated now?

He justified it by saying "Games weren't readily available in my youth" (Paraphrasing), Okay. Well, money is not readily available in this recession, so I guess we are even eh?

Look at it this way, pirates desperate to justify yourselves. If you didn't like the game anyway or you think it wouldn't be worth paying full price for, then you aren't losing when they do stuff like this, afterall its a game you feel is not worth full price.

And if their anti piracy methods proof too annoying for you then gee I wonder what you can do to get a copy without the anti pirate stuff.

If you are being honest with yourselves when you pirate and about why you pirate then things like this shouldn't bother you too much.

If your actually sad your being denied a game you didn't pay for, maybe you should consider paying for it.

DarthFennec:
While I do applaud this guy for his sense of irony, I have to wonder if he recognizes how much piracy has helped this game (and other games like it) sell. Other than the obvious "his game wouldn't be newsworthy otherwise" bit.

Today, one day after release, our usage stats look like this:

Genuine version: 214 users

Cracked version: at least 3104 users

Take a look. Without piracy, around two hundred players. With piracy, over thirty-three hundred. Keep in mind, this is an indie developer, and this is their first game. Nobody's ever heard of Green Heart Games before, ever. At this point, "total number people who know that the game exists" is a MUCH more important number than "total number of sales", because these things spread by word of mouth. People who like the game tell their friends, and they tell their friends, etc, and the more people play the game, the more sales there will be. And this happens MUCH faster if you get high numbers early.

Obviously, if nobody knows about a game or its developer, then nobody's going to know about it the next day either. It takes longer than a day for a whole lot of people to hear about a game, decide to check it out, decide to buy it, play it, and tell people they know about it. I would be surprised to get even one sale the day after release, much less a couple hundred. On the other hand, pirates don't need to learn about good games by word of mouth, because they can find them themselves, and they can (and, according to this article, did, in this case) find a game and decide to download and play it within the minute that it's uploaded. Pirates get things for free, so they're perfectly happy with actively seeking out and playing games they've never heard of because, unlike non-pirates, they aren't negatively impacted when they get a dud. The rest of us have free demos, and that's excellent and really does help a lot, but the thing is, non-pirates are more careful about game choice and are just much less likely to go looking for games in the first place.

Of course, with big triple-A titles, this doesn't really apply, since those games have their own advertising. But as an indie developer, the most important thing is always for people to know about your game, and I think pirates are a very important part of that processes, at least initially. I don't really have any moral stance on the act of piracy one way or the other, except that I would politely ask anyone who pirates a game and likes it to show some support for its creators by spending some money on it, but as far as indie development goes, I for one would be absolutely thrilled to find out that a game I wrote had a high piracy rate.

Unless those figures actually translate into sales, at the end of the day it doesn't do the indie devloper much good.

It might have seemed "awesome" when over 90% of people pirated Goo to get that great player base up, but although the game is rated highly this didn't do much for its sales.

Blood Brain Barrier:

AdamG3691:

JazzJack2:
But piracy doesn't make developers lose money, in fact it does the opposite, devs gain money from piracy.

do you know how devs are paid?

evidently not.

at the start of the development, the developer is given a certain amount of money, that money is what funds the game.

when the game is released, the devs get NO MONEY FROM SALES until they sell (initial budget/cost of a game) copies, after that they start to get money although most still goes to the publisher.

if you pirate or buy a preowned game, that doesn't count as a copy, and if the developer doesn't make enough to break even, they are unlikely to be hired again.

now explain to me, how is it that piracy increases the number of copies sold? because if you are going to argue that the good press from the game contributes, then you better be forcing two people to buy it full price, one to make up for your own actions, and one to allow your flawed justification to make even a tiny bit of sense.

How often do pirated copies of gamems actually convert into sales? Espeically when it happens to indie games. Can you name me any
It's called the "popularity effect".

Normal sales:
Player 1 buys game, tells 8 friends, 4 who buy it too and 4 can't afford it. 5 copies sold.

Pirate sales:
Player 1 (Pirate) to friends: "Wow, game is totally awesome you should get it"
Players 2,3,4,5: Goes out and buys game, 4 copies sold. Players 6,7,8,9 pirate the game and tell their friends too who may or may not buy it. Now there are twice as many people to spread the word leading to more sales in the long-term.

Pirate sales with "pirate-sabotage" DRM:
Player 1 (pirate) to friends: "This game sucks, doesn't let me make money and plus the devs are arseholes"
Friends avoid buying. No copies sold.

Piracy exists and will always exist: sabotaging pirates is only going to sabotage your sales.

Blood Brain Barrier:

AdamG3691:

JazzJack2:
But piracy doesn't make developers lose money, in fact it does the opposite, devs gain money from piracy.

do you know how devs are paid?

evidently not.

at the start of the development, the developer is given a certain amount of money, that money is what funds the game.

when the game is released, the devs get NO MONEY FROM SALES until they sell (initial budget/cost of a game) copies, after that they start to get money although most still goes to the publisher.

if you pirate or buy a preowned game, that doesn't count as a copy, and if the developer doesn't make enough to break even, they are unlikely to be hired again.

now explain to me, how is it that piracy increases the number of copies sold? because if you are going to argue that the good press from the game contributes, then you better be forcing two people to buy it full price, one to make up for your own actions, and one to allow your flawed justification to make even a tiny bit of sense.

It's called the "popularity effect".

Normal sales:
Player 1 buys game, tells 8 friends, 4 who buy it too and 4 can't afford it. 5 copies sold.

Pirate sales:
Player 1 (Pirate) to friends: "Wow, game is totally awesome you should get it"
Players 2,3,4,5: Goes out and buys game, 4 copies sold. Players 6,7,8,9 pirate the game and tell their friends too who may or may not buy it. Now there are twice as many people to spread the word leading to more sales in the long-term.

Pirate sales with "pirate-sabotage" DRM:
Player 1 (pirate) to friends: "This game sucks, doesn't let me make money and plus the devs are arseholes"
Friends avoid buying. No copies sold.

Piracy exists and will always exist: sabotaging pirates is only going to sabotage your sales.

How often do pirated copies of gamems actually convert into sales? Especially when it happens to indie games. Can you name me any?

Can anyone making this kind of argument think of any developers who are thankful for pirates? If What your saying is true you would theoretically have multiplied the sales of a game, but if you search your feelings I think you'll realise this isnt true.

Or failing that, you guys better stop pirating Call of Duty before you cause the sales to multiply

LetalisK:

J Tyran:
I hope there is a special circle of hell for people that pirate an indie game that has no DRM and has a demo. All of the excuses for piracy fall to pieces, its cheap, you do not need to crack it because of broken DRM and you can try the demo.

Plus its not a protest against big publishers and their practices its just the little guys trying to earn a living, no excuses whatsoever.

That's my biggest beef with the pirating culture. I don't care about the actual pirating, because I buy some of the moralistic arguments about fighting against the absolutely ridiculous and ineffective measures publishers use to hassle consumers and sometimes wonder if publishers aren't actually trying to push people to piracy for some reason. Then something like this or the Humble Indie Bundle incident happens. They had a chance to justify their platitudes and failed miserably. I hope the ethical pirates are absolutely fuming at this.

This is a great post, and Id like to ask the pirate community to explain if any of the logic and reasoning here is fault.

The people behind the Humble Indie Bundle do not thank you.

okay when all the bitching and moaning i would like say two things

1: its two guys, i stop pirating a few years ago because of Sopa and Pipa and two guys working their asses off to make games for people to enjoy and you got a demo to play and enjoy the game before you know if you want to buy it. this isnt EA, its two guys!

2: the game is 8 FUCKING DOLLARS!

The Jimquistion said it best. if you are stealing games that cost less then a meal at pizza hut, you are not making a stand against Injustices, you are no better then a pedophile burglar.

I loled sooooooo hard. I was a little disappointed the game didn't have malware that "disabled" the criminals' computers or better yet COPIED and sent all the criminal's bank information to the developers and incriminating evidence to the appropriate authorities. Cus you know, as I have seen several times in this very thread, "It aint a crime if you just COPY something. Not like anyone is stealing anything." THAT would have been the ultimate justice... pirate scum.

immortalfrieza:

Sorry to have to tell you this blackraven, but you "lost" (if you can call what that these shouting matches filled to the brim with hyperbole and logical fallicies that these anti-piracy people engage in actual debates) before you ever began. Like just about everybody here that argues against piracy, Resonance had this postion that "piracy is a crime therefore it's wrong" hammered into his whole life, decided it was completely correct without any leeway whatsoever, and decided to defend it to the death long before he saw this thread. Any reasonable person would have at least admitted that piracy is an understandable thing to do even if they don't agree with it within a couple posts. You might as well try to reason with a rock for all it'll accomplish.

Try quoting me if you're going to talk shit about me, mate.

talking about this game

1) it has a free demo

2) it's $8

3) the world owes you fuck all

So where's the justification to "try before you buy" or "HURRGH, AAA DEVELOPERS ARE EBIL" in this case?

Very Very fun game, though at the later years (around 8+) I start having a hard time making money with a full team >_<

Fun fun though.

ResonanceSD:

immortalfrieza:

Sorry to have to tell you this blackraven, but you "lost" (if you can call what that these shouting matches filled to the brim with hyperbole and logical fallicies that these anti-piracy people engage in actual debates) before you ever began. Like just about everybody here that argues against piracy, Resonance had this postion that "piracy is a crime therefore it's wrong" hammered into his whole life, decided it was completely correct without any leeway whatsoever, and decided to defend it to the death long before he saw this thread. Any reasonable person would have at least admitted that piracy is an understandable thing to do even if they don't agree with it within a couple posts. You might as well try to reason with a rock for all it'll accomplish.

Try quoting me if you're going to talk shit about me, mate.

talking about this game

1) it has a free demo

2) it's $8

3) the world owes you fuck all

So where's the justification to "try before you buy" or "HURRGH, AAA DEVELOPERS ARE EBIL" in this case?

I was just informing darkraven that his arguing with you is futile. You've made it quite clear pretty much from the moment you showed up on this thread that you only came here to shout your side from the rooftops, not actually debate anything, that you are completely unreasonable, are never are going to change your mind in the slightest no matter how many perfectly reasonable arguments people throw at you, (and there have been plenty) and when they do give perfectly reasonable arguments you won't admit it and just dismiss it out of hand without ever even considering it. However, if you insist...

The fact of the matter is people like convenience, and like it or not, Piracy provides a better, more convenient, and more affordable service all around even without the free factor than the all the legal ways of getting digitally distributable content. This is why piracy exists to begin with and why it will continue to exist for the forseeable future. To give you an analogy, developers and complaining about Piracy costing them sales are like those mom and pop stores complaining about going out of business because some big chain store opened up near them and provided a much cheaper and much better service. No, mom and pop stores/developers, you're not going out of business because that store opened up or losing sales because piracy exists, you're going out or losing sales because you can't or won't measure up, and worst of all, you won't admit that. That, and the fact that if people are pirating a game more than they are buying it, that means the game is crap. A good game would convert most of it's pirates that could afford it into paying customers because those pirates would want to see more games from that developer.

Besides, people are going to pirate a game no matter what, it is the responsiblity of the developer to make sure piracy is impossible and to entice them into purchasing rather than pirating, at least for the length of time it would take to get most of sales it's ever going to get. If a developer can't stop it, they deserve to have a lot of people pirate their games, it doesn't matter what position said developer is in either. It's just a modern version of the law of jungle "You can't keep an animal from killing and eating you in the jungle you deserve to be eaten" which has never truly and never will leave us. It sucks, I know, but that's the way the world is and in all likelyhood always will be.

Oh, and one more thing.

ResonanceSD:

3) the world owes you fuck all

That can easily be turned around. If the world owes me and everybody else "fuck all," I and everybody else owe the world just as much.

JazzJack2:
Show me one game that was caused to flop by piracy.

I'm not going to sift through all 9 pages of this topic to see if this was mentioned, but:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?42663-Venting-my-frustrations-with-PC-game-dev

A-D.:

Now do the math, if piracy is older than DRM, and DRM only came about recently, then why hasnt the Industry imploded in the time between those two points?

Rationalization#1
"People still make games, therefore not paying for games isn't hurting anyone"

which is similar to:
"My friend stole a shirt from a clothing store, but clothing stores still exist, so if I steal a pair of pants it doesn't matter"

(And no, I don't want to hear your subsequent rationalization about digital copy being different from pants. What matters is that you're getting something for nothing when you should not be)

A-D.:

So lets get to "pirates", you know, "the poor folks" as you call em.

I've never called them "poor folks" so don't fucking say that I did.

A-D.:

The game doesnt run on your computer and you can not get a refund: Is pirating to avoid buying another non-functioning product right or wrong?

If a product doesn't work you complain to the company and get a refund. Just as people have gotten refunds from EA for SimCity

A-D.:

The game is too expensive, i can not buy it right now but i want to play it: Is pirating right or wrong when you buy the
product later anyway?

You pirate a game at launch when the game costs 60 dollars, later on you buy the game at 20 dollars to feel good about yourself.

You do the math.

A-D.:

These are actually reasons as to why people pirate. It's two legitimate ones.

Wrong, actually.

A-D.:

How is that rationalizing anything? Why is it okay to buy a game that does not work, not being able to get your money back, but pirating it first to see if it works is wrong? You can't really group them all together and think the generalization sticks. Thats about as logical as saying "All black people like chicken." What if you meet a black guy that doesnt?

I can group them all together actually. Because you're just making up bullshit reasons for doing something that you shouldn't. I don't give a shit, about your reasons. None of them are legitimate.

Can't afford to play a game? Then don't fucking play it. It's that simple.

Play a free to play one.
Play a flash game.
Replay a game you already own.
Buy a cheaper one.
Wait 6 months for the thing to go on sale.

Whatever.

For every reason you can give me, I can give you a reason for you not to do it. So, I don't give a shit about your reasons. I care about reality. And the reality is that if you cannot afford to play a game, then you don't NEED to play it.

Gaming is a luxury. People are not entitled to enjoy luxuries. That's why it's called a luxury.

Cecilo:

Akalabeth:

blackrave:

I almost shed a tear, ALMOST!
But once again this is shitty world.
And would such developer feel better if nobody would even bother to pirate his/her game?
Because if your game is being pirated, you did something right.
If your game isn't pirated then you just produced shit.
Harsh reality, sad reality, disappointing reality, but still reality.

No, I'm sorry but this is not a shitty world, the only thing that's shitty here is your justifications and your perspective.

I'm sorry that you're unable to empathize with someone who's working his ass off to create a game that you feel entitled to steal. You talk to me about charity? You know that charity depends upon giving a shit for someone else? And yet you come up with all sorts of rationalizations why giving a shit for a developer is something you don't need to do? That you feel entitled not to do? Of having not done?

You think a developer should feel grateful people are stealing his game? What world do you live in? Maybe you should feel grateful when someone makes sexist remarks to your girlfriend. After all, if no one openly comments on how great her ass is it must mean she's not very attractive right? That's the sort of logic you're dealing.

Discussion over.

Except he pirated games in his youth, so.. again why should ANYONE care about the fact that he is having HIS game pirated now?

He justified it by saying "Games weren't readily available in my youth" (Paraphrasing), Okay. Well, money is not readily available in this recession, so I guess we are even eh?

Because this is a discussion about piracy in general, not piracy as it relates to this specific developer.

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