Apparently Riot has some problem with women: nasty behind-the-scenes stuff

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The Rogue Wolf:

Kerg3927:
Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

Mothro:

The Rogue Wolf:

Kerg3927:
Assuming the allegations are true, dick pics and rape jokes certainly cross the line, but otherwise, boys will be boys, IMO.

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

erttheking:

Mothro:

The Rogue Wolf:

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Mothro:

erttheking:

Mothro:

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

erttheking:

Mothro:

The Rogue Wolf:

"Boys will be boys" is an excuse boys use for why they won't grow up and be men.

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Seems like it's more along the line of enabling. Also it may not be commonplace, but there are certainly chicks out there that talk as dirty or even dirtier than guys. It's off-putting mostly because it just doesn't seem right, but the main difference is generally that most guys wouldn't take offense to the extent that most chics do.

Can I just ask that the mods lock this thread down if the discussion refuses to resolve itself by the time it hits 10 pages? Discussions of this subject completely destroyed these forums years ago and if there's going to be new management and potential hope for a revival of this place then I'd rather this contentious issue be forcibly stopped before it goes out of control.

Please do note, I am not saying this isn't worth discussing, all I am saying is that there comes a point where everyone has said all they can say and are doing nothing but running around in circles repeating the same things over and over at each other with nothing to show for it but bruised feelings and a lack of new happier topics.

CoCage:

Mothro:

erttheking:

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

tf2godz:

Hawki:

As someone who plays LoL...yeah, I'm not going to contest that.

As someone who started playing HotS before LoL, well, it was like night and day. Not that HotS is perfect, but it's practically PC compared to some of the garbage I read in the text bar in some matches.

To go off topic I have friends I play lol and hots with and one of them sums up the differences between both player bases. League has far more toxic players, that get more toxic the more they play and continually fucks up.

Hots are nicer people but not nearly as skilled and we'll make dumb mistakes without being tilted. and when you do get that toxic person they will be the worst player imaginable and refuse to take responsibility for their fuck ups. Pretty much the dumbass who thinks he's Einstein.

of course occasionally the situations are reversed, but that's been my experience.

as a dude who started in LoL and played HotS since the beta (on and off) im usually the person whose raging at the team :D. i have no idea how you can stand HotS. the XP system is really really bad

sagitel:
i have no idea how you can stand HotS. the XP system is really really bad

HotS is much more enjoyable than LoL in pretty much every way. The XP system is one of said ways (shared XP is less toxic, makes the team feel far more cohesive, allows heroes like Abathur to exist, gives a better sense of where your team is at, negates the whole last hitting nonsense, etc.)

LoL has some merit, but I really need to be in a certain state of mind to play it, in the knowledge that:

a) I'm going to be on the same map AGAIN

b) The meta is going to be the same AGAIN (top, mid, jungle, adc, support)

c) The match is going to go for about 40 minutes

d) There's a strong chance that the side I'm on is going to descend into bitching

In essence, there's about a 50/50 chance at best that I'm going to enjoy a LoL game. In HotS, if I don't enjoy a game, it'll not drag on for too long anyway.

Gordon_4:
I work with some of blokiest blokes that ever did bloke, but I feel confident in saying that if our boss walked up and farted in the face of any of them, they'd need the jaws of life to remove the enraged boot from their arse. Because there's a difference between being a bit of a lad, and being a disgusting arsehole.

Like surely the social contract in a professional environment would imply that doing that is just fucking rude?

Yeah, I would say that playing the fart game crosses the line in most work environments, and I would think most companies would reprimand, discipline, or even fire an employee who did something like that at work. But to keep things in perspective, we're not talking about rape and murder here...

Satinavian:
This kind of behavior is not inherent too maleness. And most men don't identify themself as "bros" and don't condone such a shit.

Sure for the same reason a women at such a place might keep quite to avoid trouble, a man could do the same but it is not something that typically comes into existence whenever men get together.

Yes, some people would claim that this is "toxic masculinity". But i disagree on the ground that this is not actually masculinity at all.

Have you ever been in a male sports locker room? I admit that it's been 25 years for me, since I played (American) football in high school, and maybe things have changed since then. But in my experience, when you have a group of dudes hanging out together, and they all know each other well, they typically act noticeably different than a mixed group of men and women do. There is typically more masculinity, bravado, crude language, etc.

I know not all men act masculine. But I find it hard to believe that it's "most men." We do have testosterone in our bodies after all.

Hawki:
A "bro culture" is fine as long as it doesn't harm those that aren't part of that culture.

Agreed. Harm is a difficult thing to define, though.

Hawki:

Every large company in existence has disgruntled ex-employees who feel like they were undervalued and treated unfairly.

Yes, and?

In this case it appears those feelings are founded.

My point is that when someone gets promoted, there are usually other contenders who each feel that he/she deserved it more. And this goes for males and females. It's not hard to find former employees of a large company who are willing to bad mouth their former employer because they feel like they didn't get a fair shake in moving up the corporate ladder. And if you're only looking for females to interview, it's probably not hard to find ones that feel like sexism was involved.

Hawki:

And with 100 million players and $1.6 billion in revenue... how can anyone seriously be critical of their hiring and promotion practices? Based on results, I'd say they have a pretty damn good business model, one that should probably be studied and emulated.

Taking that train of thought to the end station, any amoral behaviour within a company can be excused as long as it turns a profit.

Also, never thought I'd see someone else being pro F2P on this site, but there you go.

Not necessarily. We do have laws that are there to protect people.

As far as F2P, I've never played League of Legends. I was just saying that their business model appears to be successful for their shareholders, which is the reason all for-profit companies exist.

Mothro:

CoCage:

Mothro:

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

Both.

CoCage:

Mothro:

CoCage:

Womanchild.

A term that you use or hear often?

Both.

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

Mothro:

CoCage:

Mothro:

A term that you use or hear often?

Both.

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

Not on this forum. I've used it on the IMDB forums some of the time, but you know what already happened on that site. I actually use it in conversation (not online) when necessary or pointing out something.

CoCage:

Mothro:

CoCage:

Both.

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

Not on this forum. I've used it on the IMDB for ums some of the time, but you know what already happened on that site. I actually use it conversation (not online) when necessary or pointing out something.

That's awesome. Equality is good. Sadly most people do not use it but are perfectly happy to say manchild every chance they get.

It's funny that people are so quick to judge males but most of those people would never try to tell a woman what it means to be a real woman.

Mothro:

CoCage:

Mothro:

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

Not on this forum. I've used it on the IMDB for ums some of the time, but you know what already happened on that site. I actually use it conversation (not online) when necessary or pointing out something.

That's awesome. Equality is good. Sadly most people do not use it but are perfectly happy to say manchild every chance they get.

It's funny that people are so quick to judge males but most of those people would never try to tell a woman what it means to be a real woman.

That's because a real woman is like a real man. A lot of garbage designed to slam those who don't follow gender sterotyping.

Kerg3927:

Have you ever been in a male sports locker room? I admit that it's been 25 years for me, since I played (American) football in high school, and maybe things have changed since then. But in my experience, when you have a group of dudes hanging out together, and they all know each other well, they typically act noticeably different than a mixed group of men and women do. There is typically more masculinity, bravado, crude language, etc.

Did you seriously bring up high school gym locker rooms? Seriously?

It's been about 25 years for me too, and despite repressing the memories of that terrible place I still remember about 5-6 assholes (who were still trying to figure out what being a man actually meant) defaulting to gorilla-style "Oooga ooga, must establish dominance by being an aggressive idiot!" as what they thought men should be.

That and shit like shoving me around, grabbing my stuff and chucking it in the garbage, or in one case literally pulling down my pants, mocking my yellow underwear as "He's wearing a yellow thong!!!", and proceeded to drag me by the legs on my ass all the way across the locker room before dumping me into the garbage can. To say nothing of all their insults and other bullying because I had no interest in girls or sex (nor had an opportunity to make girl friends because it was an all-boy school), and as a result they assumed I must be "gay".

And let me tell you, the rest of the class that wansn't part of "club asshole" only sorta played along because they didn't want to end up like me, the guy that the entire school shat on.

If that behaviour was normal (as the VP of discipline initially pretended it was), then why is it that when they FINALLY sent someone down there to check on us, the gym teacher (a sports guy) walked in on a relatively MILD day and flipped his shit going "What the actual FUCK are you idiots doing?! You were raised to be better than this! What, do we need to install cameras down here so you don't act like a bunch of animals?! You 5-6 guys, come with me, we're going to the office" and finally, FINALLY, some suspensions got doled out. Afterwards, while the gym locker rooms still had some crass humor and bravado, it was actually within the realm of reason and not like a bunch of animals who learned to speak.

Now, in the adult world, I can't speak to professional level sports. But my dad plays hockey in a "garage league" in the winter, and while there are some crass jokes (and a few guys who don't give a shit and walk around naked after showers despite people going "dood, we don't wanna see that! It's all shriveled up, man!"), my dad says he's never run into any toxic shit, and he's someone with no tolerance for that kind of thing.

TLDR, the locker room example is likely bullshit, especially if you bring up high school, when the BOYS are literally trying to figure out what it means to be a man, and a bunch of them think the right answer is to act like some kind of sex-crazed gorrila who needs to establish dominance.

Also, maybe I just hang out with guys who aren't idiot assholes, but we don't act different when it's just guys VS with girls. We still swear, we still pun, we still shout obscenities when someone launches a Blue Shell, and make the occasional crass joke, etc. Hell, one of the girls in my friend group is more foulmouthed than the guys.

Then again, none of the men in our group feels that masculinity involves crowing about how much sex we have and how much we wanna fuck whomever. We value mutual respect, after all.

I know not all men act masculine. But I find it hard to believe that it's "most men." We do have testosterone in our bodies after all.

Testosterone just makes you more aggressive and potentially "dumbs down" your brain when you get aroused, AFAIK.

And considering most of the guys I know aren't sex-crazed goofballs who think passing around lists of chicks they wanna fuck at work is appropriate, I'll say that if testosterone is the cause, then I think the ones who DO think that kind of behaviour is ok suffer from way too much testosterone, instead of the normal levels.

Masculinity, in my view, is about Protecting, Providing, and stepping up to Lead by Example (or deferring to the leadership of someone who knows better, and then doing your task as well as possible). Acting like a sex-crazed gorilla desperately trying to asset dominance, to me smacks of someone trying to prove they're masculine when they lack the ability to actually lead by example.

Agreed. Harm is a difficult thing to define, though.

Does someone get hurt or feel that they need to shut up and be very very small to avoid attention because they feel like they could be the target of harassment? Does someone have to deal with a bunch of people talking about how much they want to fuck them and it makes them feel seriously uncomfortable?

That's harm. It also cuts down on productivity because those people are no longer fully focused on their tasks, but rather the shit that's happening to them that's making them feel like they should get the hell out.

As far as F2P, I've never played League of Legends. I was just saying that their business model appears to be successful for their shareholders, which is the reason all for-profit companies exist.

So...A lot of big game studios believe that Crunch Time is a good idea. Some accept Crunch that goes on for months. They basically set unreasonable deadlines and force developers to do insane overtime (likely unpaid and only compensated by bonuses if they meet the unreasonable deadline, and not as much as if they were paid the overtime), and make some basically live at the office and ignore their families and lives for long periods of time, or risk being fired. And it doesn't actually break any labor laws that are supposed to protect people.

These studios make tons of money with big budget games. Does this mean that Extended Crunch Time is a good idea and that it's a successful business model?

Hell no! It causes mass burnouts and makes talented people leave the industry, it exhausts people and makes them work a lot less effectively, and makes them stop caring about their work. And it can destroy families and lead to various stress-related health problems.

And, to counterpoint a little, the small studio I worked at last summer was founded on the ideal of "You can still make ambitious games while running a business ethically" and of avoiding crunch time. Other studios and execs looked at our project and said "It's impossible to make something that ambitious with only about 10 people, that small a budget and no crunch". And yet, the project is very much on track for completion without ANY crunch needed.

Just because something makes a lot of money, or follows conventional wisdom, doesn't mean it shoudn't be questioned or improved.

So just because Riot can make hugs gobs of cash on LoL, doesn't mean that their "bro culture" (where they share lists of women at work they want to fuck, and ignore women's suggestions) should be emulated. Hell, I'd pin their success on being the first not-shit F2P game and managing to crack the E-sports scene in Korea, plus some distinctive cool cosmetics, not on whether or not they allow guys to fart in each other's faces, and make crude sex jokes in front of the women there.

aegix drakan:
Did you seriously bring up high school gym locker rooms? Seriously?

It's been about 25 years for me too, and despite repressing the memories of that terrible place I still remember about 5-6 assholes (who were still trying to figure out what being a man actually meant) defaulting to gorilla-style "Oooga ooga, must establish dominance by being an aggressive idiot!" as what they thought men should be.

That and shit like shoving me around, grabbing my stuff and chucking it in the garbage, or in one case literally pulling down my pants, mocking my yellow underwear as "He's wearing a yellow thong!!!", and proceeded to drag me by the legs on my ass all the way across the locker room before dumping me into the garbage can. To say nothing of all their insults and other bullying because I had no interest in girls or sex (nor had an opportunity to make girl friends because it was an all-boy school), and as a result they assumed I must be "gay".

And let me tell you, the rest of the class that wansn't part of "club asshole" only sorta played along because they didn't want to end up like me, the guy that the entire school shat on.

If that behaviour was normal (as the VP of discipline initially pretended it was), then why is it that when they FINALLY sent someone down there to check on us, the gym teacher (a sports guy) walked in on a relatively MILD day and flipped his shit going "What the actual FUCK are you idiots doing?! You were raised to be better than this! What, do we need to install cameras down here so you don't act like a bunch of animals?! You 5-6 guys, come with me, we're going to the office" and finally, FINALLY, some suspensions got doled out. Afterwards, while the gym locker rooms still had some crass humor and bravado, it was actually within the realm of reason and not like a bunch of animals who learned to speak.

Now, in the adult world, I can't speak to professional level sports. But my dad plays hockey in a "garage league" in the winter, and while there are some crass jokes (and a few guys who don't give a shit and walk around naked after showers despite people going "dood, we don't wanna see that! It's all shriveled up, man!"), my dad says he's never run into any toxic shit, and he's someone with no tolerance for that kind of thing.

TLDR, the locker room example is likely bullshit, especially if you bring up high school, when the BOYS are literally trying to figure out what it means to be a man, and a bunch of them think the right answer is to act like some kind of sex-crazed gorrila who needs to establish dominance.

Also, maybe I just hang out with guys who aren't idiot assholes, but we don't act different when it's just guys VS with girls. We still swear, we still pun, we still shout obscenities when someone launches a Blue Shell, and make the occasional crass joke, etc. Hell, one of the girls in my friend group is more foulmouthed than the guys.

Then again, none of the men in our group feels that masculinity involves crowing about how much sex we have and how much we wanna fuck whomever. We value mutual respect, after all.

Sorry you had to go through that. I experienced and witnessed some of that in junior high (bullying), but in high school it was much more civil, just lots of joking around, sometimes crudely. Maybe it was different because it was a football team locker room, where we had all been running, lifting weights, sweating, beating the crap out of each other in practice, and showering together for years. Football players generally respected other football players, because we were all part of the same team.

When I'm talking about differences in male to male conversations vs. mixed, I'm not saying everyone is "crowing" about their sex life. Mostly it's just talking about girls they find hot, often using crude language, and in my personal experience, those conversations don't happen as much in mixed groups. There's a difference, especially when mixed groups usually include some wives and girlfriends. When a guy is sitting next to his significant other, he can't very well talk about the shapely ass of the hot chick who just walked by, can he? That's what I'm talking about.

aegix drakan:

Testosterone just makes you more aggressive and potentially "dumbs down" your brain when you get aroused, AFAIK.

And considering most of the guys I know aren't sex-crazed goofballs who think passing around lists of chicks they wanna fuck at work is appropriate, I'll say that if testosterone is the cause, then I think the ones who DO think that kind of behaviour is ok suffer from way too much testosterone, instead of the normal levels.

Masculinity, in my view, is about Protecting, Providing, and stepping up to Lead by Example (or deferring to the leadership of someone who knows better, and then doing your task as well as possible). Acting like a sex-crazed gorilla desperately trying to asset dominance, to me smacks of someone trying to prove they're masculine when they lack the ability to actually lead by example.

I've never seen anyone pass around a list, so that's a new one for me. Seems pretty stupid. Why leave a paper trail? But I think guys who love/want sex and like to talk about it with other guys is hardly abnormal, especially young, single guys that are still in the game. If most guys weren't "sex-crazed" at least on some level, our species would be in trouble. Most of us are wired for it by evolution.

aegix drakan:
Does someone get hurt or feel that they need to shut up and be very very small to avoid attention because they feel like they could be the target of harassment? Does someone have to deal with a bunch of people talking about how much they want to fuck them and it makes them feel seriously uncomfortable?

That's harm. It also cuts down on productivity because those people are no longer fully focused on their tasks, but rather the shit that's happening to them that's making them feel like they should get the hell out.

I'm not saying that harm from sexual harassment is not real. But it is hard to define. Sometimes it can be difficult to tell where normal co-worker mating rituals end and sexual harassment begins. And yes, when males and females spend lots of time working together, a significant percentage of them are going to become attracted to each other, date, and fuck. That's just biology. Sometimes the lines get blurred.

aegix drakan:
So...A lot of big game studios believe that Crunch Time is a good idea. Some accept Crunch that goes on for months. They basically set unreasonable deadlines and force developers to do insane overtime (likely unpaid and only compensated by bonuses if they meet the unreasonable deadline, and not as much as if they were paid the overtime), and make some basically live at the office and ignore their families and lives for long periods of time, or risk being fired. And it doesn't actually break any labor laws that are supposed to protect people.

These studios make tons of money with big budget games. Does this mean that Extended Crunch Time is a good idea and that it's a successful business model?

Hell no! It causes mass burnouts and makes talented people leave the industry, it exhausts people and makes them work a lot less effectively, and makes them stop caring about their work. And it can destroy families and lead to various stress-related health problems.

And, to counterpoint a little, the small studio I worked at last summer was founded on the ideal of "You can still make ambitious games while running a business ethically" and of avoiding crunch time. Other studios and execs looked at our project and said "It's impossible to make something that ambitious with only about 10 people, that small a budget and no crunch". And yet, the project is very much on track for completion without ANY crunch needed.

Just because something makes a lot of money, or follows conventional wisdom, doesn't mean it shoudn't be questioned or improved.

So just because Riot can make hugs gobs of cash on LoL, doesn't mean that their "bro culture" (where they share lists of women at work they want to fuck, and ignore women's suggestions) should be emulated. Hell, I'd pin their success on being the first not-shit F2P game and managing to crack the E-sports scene in Korea, plus some distinctive cool cosmetics, not on whether or not they allow guys to fart in each other's faces, and make crude sex jokes in front of the women there.

Crunch time sounds like ass. I wouldn't want to work at a place like that. Anything more than 40 hours cuts too much into my play time.

But I know the pressures of the free market can make companies push the envelope to keep up with competitors. Not every company has a choice. They are bowing to the will of economic forces. Maybe game developers should unionize or something.

Hawki:
whoop

I guess I just don't like the enemy in my lane is getting more powerful since the guy in our other lane is playing bad. It takes out the whole "I can crush my lane and make one of them useless" of the Mona genre

Mothro:

CoCage:

Mothro:

I never hear it. Maybe you point out some posts where you have used it?

Not on this forum. I've used it on the IMDB for ums some of the time, but you know what already happened on that site. I actually use it conversation (not online) when necessary or pointing out something.

That's awesome. Equality is good. Sadly most people do not use it but are perfectly happy to say manchild every chance they get.

It's funny that people are so quick to judge males but most of those people would never try to tell a woman what it means to be a real woman.

Thank you.

sagitel:

I guess I just don't like the enemy in my lane is getting more powerful since the guy in our other lane is playing bad. It takes out the whole "I can crush my lane and make one of them useless" of the Mona genre

-Except if you're the one playing bad, you're far more likely to be on the receiving end of toxicity.

-If you're doing well in one lane, but someone else is doing poorly in another, that's still going to eventually affect you later on towards the end-game.

-HotS isn't bereft of the concept you cite, since it's hardly rare for one lane to be doing well, and the other(s) to be doing poorly. If anything, HotS is far more dynamic in this regard due to the presence of specialists (which excel in lane pushing) and creeps which can help push lanes. Also helps that it's far easier to get from one lane to another, so it's far easier to coordinate with other players if you want to take down a specific fort.

Mothro:
Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild, although it doesn't see as much use.

There aren't necessarily direct equivalents. Because men and women have different traditional gender roles to live up to, so they have had different standards to conventionally have to live up to and thus different derogatory terms. So for instance the societal expectation of a man is to be a self-reliant, responsible, breadwinner type, thus an immature, irresponsible man stands out for particular criticism. As women didn't have quite the same expectations, so less has been devoted to the same sort of criticism.

However, that means there are plenty of pejoratives directed at women for their domain, either specific to women or much more commonly applied to them than men. For instance, women are particularly expected to do housework and look tidy, so we have the term "slattern" for which there is pretty much no male-specific equivalent. Similarly, men were expected to sow their oats and there isn't the same use of pejoratives for promiscuous men that there are for women (e.g. "slut", "slag"). One can think of all those words associated with women who kept telling their husbands to do stuff ("nag", "shrew", etc.), whereas I'm not sure any specific term exists for a man who spent his time constantly instructing his wife on her duties.

So, let's not get too hung up on the idea that the grass is greener on the other side in this sort of thing.

Agema:

Mothro:
Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Womanchild, although it doesn't see as much use.

There aren't necessarily direct equivalents. Because men and women have different traditional gender roles to live up to, so they have had different standards to conventionally have to live up to and thus different derogatory terms. So for instance the societal expectation of a man is to be a self-reliant, responsible, breadwinner type, thus an immature, irresponsible man stands out for particular criticism. As women didn't have quite the same expectations, so less has been devoted to the same sort of criticism.

However, that means there are plenty of pejoratives directed at women for their domain, either specific to women or much more commonly applied to them than men. For instance, women are particularly expected to do housework and look tidy, so we have the term "slattern" for which there is pretty much no male-specific equivalent. Similarly, men were expected to sow their oats and there isn't the same use of pejoratives for promiscuous men that there are for women (e.g. "slut", "slag"). One can think of all those words associated with women who kept telling their husbands to do stuff ("nag", "shrew", etc.), whereas I'm not sure any specific term exists for a man who spent his time constantly instructing his wife on her duties.

So, let's not get too hung up on the idea that the grass is greener on the other side in this sort of thing.

Judging men for not living up to their gender roles is accepted and common. You dare tell a woman to get back in the kitchen and you'll catch plenty of backlash.

whereas I'm not sure any specific term exists for a man who spent his time constantly instructing his wife on her duties.

Those men are called controlling and abusive.

Mothro:
Judging men for not living up to their gender roles is accepted and common. You dare tell a woman to get back in the kitchen and you'll catch plenty of backlash.

Okay, let me put this to you another way. Go out and speak to some women, and listen to their stories about how they're treated and what can be expected from them. Or just Google it, because articles on that sort of thing is hardly rare. I think you'll find they have a lot of issues to deal with themselves. When I say listen, I mean really listen. The problem seems to me to be that people read that sort of thing, and they don't listen. They pre-decide women have it easy (-ier), and treat it as unmerited special pleading.

Pointing out men have their own problems and these may be under-recognised is fair enough. Concentrating attention on men or women can be justified. But to go as far as diminishing other people's difficulties or pretending they don't exist just derserves no particular respect at all.

Those men are called controlling and abusive.

Controlling and abusive men are called controlling and abusive. As are controlling and abusive women.

But you wanted to make the argument about "there's no female equivalent for X" so you also have to accept there's no male equivalent for Y", because that really is the way the world is.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/4/17810676/pax-west-panel-league-of-legends-riot-games-controversy

So...yeah. Don't think that was the best way to go about this Riot.

Though I suppose if you were male, you could just declare yourself non-binary, so...yay?

Hawki:
https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/4/17810676/pax-west-panel-league-of-legends-riot-games-controversy

So...yeah. Don't think that was the best way to go about this Riot.

Though I suppose if you were male, you could just declare yourself non-binary, so...yay?

Or say you're a FTM trans person and if they want proof that just makes them look worse.

All in all this was a very obvious saving throw.

Mothro:

erttheking:

Mothro:

What's the similar term for girls who refuse to grow up and be women? In fact, how would we even define that? What is an example (or five) of immature women?

You seem to be confusing the term for an attack on men. It's used to defend shitty behavior from men. There's no equivalent for women because women don't get a free pass on shit like this.

Oh, well then what's the female equivalent term for 'manchild'?

Wouldn't it just be something like 'spinster' meaning a woman who isn't married by 30. A lot of traditional insults against women that have a somewhat similar feel to manchild tend to revolve around them not being married or having kids.

RaikuFA:

Hawki:
https://www.polygon.com/2018/9/4/17810676/pax-west-panel-league-of-legends-riot-games-controversy

So...yeah. Don't think that was the best way to go about this Riot.

Though I suppose if you were male, you could just declare yourself non-binary, so...yay?

Or say you?re a FTM trans person and if they want proof that just makes them look worse.

All in all this was a very obvious saving throw.

One they were bound to flub, even without every dude crying reverse sexism.
Just look at who they hired as an HR fix.

That Klein guy mentioned in that article was fired...

https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/riot-games-employees-fired-1202932672/

This is what happens when you turn to identity politics for a solution. A nonproductive polarized clusterfuck. You try to fight perceived sexism with your own brand of sexism and you come across as a hypocrite, which results in a backlash.

People need to learn to treat other people as individuals and judge each person by their own merits. Quit trying to divide the world up into oppressed minority tribes battling against their evil hetero white male oppressors. It never accomplishes anything positive.

Eh, apparently Riot Games has NOT been improving itself. In fact, it's gotten to the point where employees are now threatening former employees:

https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1037905176793960450

Basically their actions have been PR, putting on a facade of improving themselves but not actually changing their behavior. Not surprising (depressingly) as a lot of companies like this have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into not being a frat house.

Kerg3927:
That Klein guy mentioned in that article was fired...

https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/riot-games-employees-fired-1202932672/

This is what happens when you turn to identity politics for a solution. A nonproductive polarized clusterfuck. You try to fight perceived sexism with your own brand of sexism and you come across as a hypocrite, which results in a backlash.

People need to learn to treat other people as individuals and judge each person by their own merits. Quit trying to divide the world up into oppressed minority tribes battling against their evil hetero white male oppressors. It never accomplishes anything positive.

Don't victim blame.

Identity Politics were created by people who wanted to subjugate others. Do not blame the victims of it as if they created it.

People told a minority they were bad for being that minority, they responsed by saying it is ok to be that thing, and then those who told them they were bad for being that are now telling them they are bad for feeling proud of it.

Boy: 'Boys rule, girls drool'

Girl: 'Nuh uh, Girls are awesome! You boys drool'

Boy: 'Stop being sexist'

Aiddon:
Eh, apparently Riot Games has NOT been improving itself. In fact, it's gotten to the point where employees are now threatening former employees:

https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1037905176793960450

Basically their actions have been PR, putting on a facade of improving themselves but not actually changing their behavior. Not surprising (depressingly) as a lot of companies like this have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into not being a frat house.

Oh that was juicy to read. I hope this fucking company burns to the ground.

RaikuFA:

Aiddon:
Eh, apparently Riot Games has NOT been improving itself. In fact, it's gotten to the point where employees are now threatening former employees:

https://twitter.com/SecretGamerGrrl/status/1037905176793960450

Basically their actions have been PR, putting on a facade of improving themselves but not actually changing their behavior. Not surprising (depressingly) as a lot of companies like this have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into not being a frat house.

Oh that was juicy to read. I hope this fucking company burns to the ground.

Yeah, I've never been into Riot Games' IPs and this absolutely scorches any chance of me caring in the future. This isn't just negligent, this is antagonistic.

Kerg3927:

Have you ever been in a male sports locker room? I admit that it's been 25 years for me, since I played (American) football in high school, and maybe things have changed since then. But in my experience, when you have a group of dudes hanging out together, and they all know each other well, they typically act noticeably different than a mixed group of men and women do. There is typically more masculinity, bravado, crude language, etc.

Yes, i have.

It was a place to change clothes, not some kind of social hub. People got there, undressed, redressed and got out, usually not uttering a single word. People are usually tired and/or in a hurry. I didn't ever see more bravado or crude language there. That is true both for school locker rooms and locker rooms later used as adult doing sports (those were even quieter).

But American high school sports seems to be very different to our school sports. At least if it is even remotely like media presents it. Actually i find the way media presents American high schools to be a highly toxic and unhealthy environment. Now media tends to exxagerate but kind of also provides expectations about how to behave so i am not completely writing your experiences off. But no, this stuff is not usual male behavior.

aegix drakan:

So...A lot of big game studios believe that Crunch Time is a good idea. Some accept Crunch that goes on for months. They basically set unreasonable deadlines and force developers to do insane overtime (likely unpaid and only compensated by bonuses if they meet the unreasonable deadline, and not as much as if they were paid the overtime), and make some basically live at the office and ignore their families and lives for long periods of time, or risk being fired. And it doesn't actually break any labor laws that are supposed to protect people.

These studios make tons of money with big budget games. Does this mean that Extended Crunch Time is a good idea and that it's a successful business model?

And that is some other strange American thing i can't stop wondering whenever i read about it.

How is Crunch time the way it is used even legal in a first world country ? And why do people agree to that ?

Aiddon:

Yeah, I've never been into Riot Games' IPs

IPs?

What, they have more than one? :P

Not sure if this was posted here already, but this blog post from ex-Riot developer Barry Hawkins is worth a read. He was director of product management at the company for about a year and half, and he left in 2014. It's general overview of the environment at Riot during that time, as well as how Hawkins felt that his job was in jeopardy after he complained to management about a specific incident.

http://barryhawkins.com/blog/posts/the-story-of-why-i-left-riot-games/

Here are a couple excerpts:
"....the frequency and intensity of inappropriate behavior in the workplace had become a concern not long after I arrived. There were two predominant flavors of behavior. One was the use of sexual references and gestures by straight men toward other straight men, and the other was the sexist and inappropriate language about women. At that time, Riot was still a very young company made up of mostly very young people. I told myself that perhaps part of my calling in being at Riot at that point in time was to model more appropriate behavior and language and usher them into that next phase of maturity.

"This behavior of male-on-male aggression seemed to be a mechanism of asserting control. If you got rattled by it or responded angrily, you were seen as immature or insecure, and how could such a person be an effective Rioter, especially in a leadership role? So, the way a number of men coped with it was to not respond, and not appear provoked. Sadly, a very common coping mechanism that many men chose was to begin to exhibit the aggressive behavior themselves, often with greater intensity than they had seen it modeled. The net effect was that disagreement with the behavior was silenced, emulation of the behavior made it more prevalent, and the overall environment became fertile ground for sexism toward both men and women to run unchecked."

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