MovieBob's thoughts on the ME3 ending controversy

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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3536-Going-Green-Part-II

Odd how when it happens in the comic book world he's cool with it...

i say 2+2=5
people say im wrong
i then change it to 2+2=4

Ive set mathematics back by a decade

spartandude:
i say 2+2=5
people say im wrong
i then change it to 2+2=4

Ive set mathematics back by a decade

How could you?!
MATH IS ART!!!!111

Falsename:
Games are Art? Sure... I can work with that.

In a Gallery there is a big, beautiful painting there that captures your emotions and makes you feel incredible. You love this painting but... wait... look there there's a big black smudge!

What do you do? You tell someone, tell them about that smudge that ruins the entirety of the Art. He tells someone else and someone else, soon they get the artist over and say "Sorry to be the bearer of bad new, but there's a smudge on your art".

He says. "Yeah, I put it there on purpose. Wanted to catch your attention, make you remember this image".

Everyone is quiet, rather stunned as the artist looks around with a goofy smile on his face. Then the original one, the noticer of the smudge yells. "WE WOULD HAVE REMEMBERED THIS PAINTING BECAUSE IT'S BEAUTIFUL. NOT BECAUSE OF A GOD-DAMN-SMUDGE!"

Not a big fan of paintings, are you? After all, things like that happen all the time in the world of arts; painters expressing themselves by painting things that seem odd to the viewer. That's not really a good reason to whip up a shitstorm over this game.

Says the man who thought Other M was a work of art. to be honest with everyone, if I sold a painting that was beautiful on the whole but had one really ugly part, I'd change that part and sell it again. Does that make my painting less like art? no.

When people say games are art I always laugh. Games are products made to sell. Some can be art, but most of them are just ways to get money. If ME3 is art I compare it with the Mona Lisa with a little twist. ME3 is like the Mona Lisa if Leonardo Da Vinci had made the painting without the smile and then used a permanent marker to put the smile on it.

Sentox6:
So, I wanted to share my thoughts (for what they're worth) on MovieBob's tweets regarding the ME3 ending controversy:

Bob Chipman:
Congratulations, "Mass Effect" crybabies. You've officially set the entire medium back a DECADE as an art form

To be blunt, I wrote the first three tweets off largely as hyperbole.

To be blunt, on that first one? Fucking good!

Video games, as an art form need to go back about a decade. Deus Ex: Human Revolution did, and look at the quality we got.

Games ten years ago included things like System Shock 2, Planescape Torment, the original Fallout games, fucking Baldur's Gate, the original Deus Ex.

The fact is, a decade ago, video games were more of an art form than they are today in most cases. If Mass Effect 3 can provoke the industry to be set back ten years, we're all going to be better off for it.

I didn't buy the game on launch and when I saw how it ended I decided to not buy it at all. Games are about as much art as lets say food is, sure at high class resturants you can enjoy some truly artistic creations. But Mass Effect 3 weren't such a creation, it was more like fast food. You heard it would be good but bad at the same time and tell yourself you won't buy it but eventually you do, then you enjoy it for a short time but after your done you are left with nothing but regret.

goose4291:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3536-Going-Green-Part-II

Odd how when it happens in the comic book world he's cool with it...

Could also be applied to them retconning the Ms Marvel 'rapey' storyline I guess...

Is anyone else finding it hard to play the game through again knowing how it ends? I love the multiplayer but I haven't touched the single player game since I finished it.

I've never really liked Bob... he always seemed so smug and well... not right

Thammuz:

Ultratwinkie:
Oh for fuck sake. Mass Effect isn't art, its not even a coherent story other than fan wank with a different skin.

All Bioware stories are the SAME every single time. The only difference is what kind of women they put on screen, but use the same tired archetypes.

Saying Mass Effect's ending is the worst thing to happen is like saying "the expendables" was the worst thing to happen to movies. Mass Effect is a product, and was marketed like one. Games like "dear Esther" are art, with some games in between. Gaming doesn't have to solely follow Mass Effect no more than COD. Consoles are no longer the only game in town for gaming. Demographics are changing, PC is gaining ground with alarming speed. Developers are finally tearing off their shackles. If Bob cannot understand the difference of how gaming has changed, he might as well live under a rock and write about the latest news... from 1987...

Gaming can STILL be art if we move out from the shadow of the dumbed down, popular games. Art is NEVER mainstream. Pop culture doesn't care for art, and it never has. The population cares for overblown rehashed shit. As long as a collect few make and consume art games, gaming is art. Period.

Trying to make art into mainstream pop culture is like bringing the Mona Lisa to a frat house party and asking them "how does this painting make you feel?"

You HAVE to be fucking kidding. The Mona Lisa. A portrait done on commission for a third party by the artist with the most widespread "popular" recognition at the time.

DaVinci was a celebrity, even in his time he was considered a genius, and he made his works for profit. He had the Sforza family pay his living in exchange for the application of his genius to whatever THEY wanted. The last supper, was on commission, with guidelines. The mechanical theatre (now sadly lost) was built for the amusement of the Sforzas, and you're seriously telling me art has to be done for art's sake? That popular culture can't appreciate art?

What about Shakespeare? The most appreciated writer of his time? Are you saying The Tempest is not art? Or Romeo and Juliet? Because they had quite the box office success.

And what about Greek tragedies, Homer's epics, the Aeneid, Dante's Divine Comedy?

Most artists we know today, most artists the critic community would never dare insult with anything less than utter and lavish praise, were famous and appreciated by the public in their time. There are very few exceptions, and even then it's just because afterwards something very similar to their styles came into fashion (Van Gogh for instance). If they weren't loved by the public enough to get widespread recognition at some point, we wouldn't know who they were.

You can play artist all you want, truth is no matter how hard you try, if people don't like your art, nobody will remember it, and you will be consigned to oblivion in a single generation. Write/paint something people like, and you will be immortal. Like Shakespeare, DaVinci, Homer (who probably never existed, but that's beside the point), Vergil, Dante Alighieri and even Van Gogh, saved by the bell as he may have been.

Grow up you snob with no historical perspective.

It was an EXMAPLE you twit. DO you really expect the facebook generation to care? No, they don't. They rather watch their "expendables"or go off to watch the Jersey Shore. The masses have moved on from art, it no longer holds their attention like it did in the past.

Here is the key word:In their time

The modern masses don't care, they don't. Media would rather go on about some woman's pegnancy than talk about anything of importance or culture. Thats the entire point: the world has changed. Large budget movies are EXPECTED to cater, so why not games? Because we are "artistic?" That view of gaming died in the 90s with the corporitization of consoles. Now consoles have no relevant sway other than inside their own market.

Now there are two games: Art games and product games. Product games are bug bugdet blockblusters in game form, and the art games go and do their own thing. Gaming has diversified enough to do BOTH. We don't need to bullshit ourselves anymore.

Saying Mass Effect 3 needs artistic integrity is like saying "The Expendables" needs artistic integrity or movies wont be taken seriously as an artform.

Starke:
To be blunt, on that first one? Fucking good!

Video games, as an art form need to go back about a decade. Deus Ex: Human Revolution did, and look at the quality we got.

Games ten years ago included things like System Shock 2, Planescape Torment, the original Fallout games, fucking Baldur's Gate, the original Deus Ex.

The fact is, a decade ago, video games were more of an art form than they are today in most cases. If Mass Effect 3 can provoke the industry to be set back ten years, we're all going to be better off for it.

Ahh, the good old rose-tinted spectacles! You don't happen to remember all the shitty titles from back then? You know, the majority of all titles released, like it always is? The shit ALWAYS outnumbers the good stuff, ALWAYS. It did so back then, and it does so now.

And what the hell, the Captcha is actually doing advertising now? It bloody asked me to describe the brand Juicy Juice!

All art offered for sale is product. This argument makes no sense.

RedEyesBlackGamer:
I look forward to The Big Picture episode where he gets on his soapbox and starts hurling insults at us.

Me too. I like hearing (but don't necessarily agree with) his views on things, so this one would be interesting.

Releasing another alternative ending is a good idea. A better one would have been to keep the "Rocks fall, everyone dies" proponents, whoever they are, away from the decision-making process, but I think Bioware may have a Berman and Braga kind of problem there (who are Berman and Braga? If you thought something about any of the the Star Trek franchises other than TOS was dumb, chances are it was they who were directly responsible).

MovieBob's point would have been 100% valid... But in this case the actual content of endings matter. The sheer idiocy of it... I can't remember any move or book that comes up with something so flat-out stupid.
What, next thing George Lucas will re-release Star Wars and turn Darth Vader into rainbow unicorn and Death Star will be destroyed by the power of love of two lesbian black chicks. Would you defend this idiocy too? Or you will say that re-release is a piece of crap unworthy of being put in close proximity of actual art?
The problem with ME3 is that it's actually that bad already. It's not art. ME3 is a shitty consumer product. And is treated as one.

If you wanna blame someone, blame Bioware. They sacked original writer during ME2 development and put an idiotic rock song "Starchild" in the end instead of actual one. ME3 is an example of corporation botching art, where writers get fired and producers write story based on bad songs and stock images.
Shame on you, Moviebob. There goes your credibility.

Ultimately, what happened is they needed a new lead writer, and the last one had some big shoes to fill. So naturally, someone felt he had something to prove and you all know the rest.

Lord_Gremlin:
MovieBob's point would have been 100% valid... But in this case the actual content of endings matter. The sheer idiocy of it... I can't remember any move or book that comes up with something so flat-out stupid.
What, next thing George Lucas will re-release Star Wars and turn Darth Vader into rainbow unicorn and Death Star will be destroyed by the power of love of two lesbian black chicks. Would you defend this idiocy too? Or you will say that re-release is a piece of crap unworthy of being put in close proximity of actual art?
The problem with ME3 is that it's actually that bad already. It's not art. ME3 is a shitty consumer product. And is treated as one.

If you wanna blame someone, blame Bioware. They sacked original writer during ME2 development and put an idiotic rock song "Starchild" in the end instead of actual one. ME3 is an example of corporation botching art, where writers get fired and producers write story based on bad songs and stock images.
Shame on you, Moviebob. There goes your credibility.

Now did they actually fire him or did he just leave? Sources! I NEED SOURCES!

Lord_Gremlin:
The problem with ME3 is that it's actually that bad already. It's not art. ME3 is a shitty consumer product. And is treated as one.

See, this is the bit that bugs me. Did you actually play Mass Effect 3? The gameplay is absolutely excellent; they've polished all the aspects of it a mirror shine. The story develops according to the choices you make and the game ties up the threads of the geth and quarians, the krogan and turians, the involvement of cerberus and countless other things.

Of course, it could just be your honest opinion that it's still a bad game, and that would be perfectly valid, but my money is on that you are completely ignoring the quality of the rest of the game in favour of being mad at Bioware for the ending.

Heck, you wouldn't be so upset in the first place if you weren't emotionally invested in the series to begin with, which indicates you didn't think it was that dreadful a product. After all, if you get a bucketful of shit, you're not going to be disappointed when the bottom of the bucket is slightly darker brown than the rest.

The problem is that, like many journalists, Movie Bob is working with the premise that people are demanding that the endings must be erased and replaced by another thing completely different.

I'm surprised how this intelligent people simply forget the notion of what interactive media means. You can add to it and transform it without butchering - it is built this way, specially in this DLC era. For all we know the end was deliberated vague to allow DLC (which is not very artistic to begin with).

Also, saying that a thing is either a product or art is much more hurting to the argument that games are art than a movement that responds passionately to the medium.

Art causes reaction. In this case, the reaction was anger and frustration. If this is not the result expected by the artist, he is more than welcome to revise his work - because it is possible and it has been done before.

Also see:
- False advertising. For God's sake, just read Casey Hudson's statements, play the game and tell me with a straight face that there's nothing really wrong with it.
- Jessica Chobot, lame photoshop edits, reused assets and advertising DLC in this work of art.
- CD Project changed parts of the first Witcher responding to criticisms and to better adapt the product to the US public.
- Movie pre-screenings that have their ending changed because of the audience reaction.
- Fallout 3
- Bioware changed a book because of the same reasons: plot holes, lack of internal logic and lore inconsistencies. Games changing is not new - but this I've never heard about and nobody cried "Artistic Integrity" like you guys are doing now.

To be honest the whole thing just looks so dramatic because the media brought this whole artistic integrity issue with the same fanboy rage that they were criticizing in the first place.

Bioware case is a perfect storm of bad decisions and bad PR, and they are in a terrible situation because they put themselves in it. It will be impossible to them to please everyone but inaction will probably hurt them even more.

They treated their art as a product, using every little trick on the book to make us buy it, going so far as to promise things that are exactly the opposite of what was presented - you cannot blame people to treat their art as product as well.

Elcarsh:

Lord_Gremlin:
The problem with ME3 is that it's actually that bad already. It's not art. ME3 is a shitty consumer product. And is treated as one.

See, this is the bit that bugs me. Did you actually play Mass Effect 3? The gameplay is absolutely excellent; they've polished all the aspects of it a mirror shine. The story develops according to the choices you make and the game ties up the threads of the geth and quarians, the krogan and turians, the involvement of cerberus and countless other things.

Of course, it could just be your honest opinion that it's still a bad game, and that would be perfectly valid, but my money is on that you are completely ignoring the quality of the rest of the game in favour of being mad at Bioware for the ending.

Heck, you wouldn't be so upset in the first place if you weren't emotionally invested in the series to begin with, which indicates you didn't think it was that dreadful a product. After all, if you get a bucketful of shit, you're not going to be disappointed when the bottom of the bucket is slightly darker brown than the rest.

Sorry, I should have clarified that my post relates to ME3 ending, not the whole ME3 game. Although I would also argue that ending ruins whatever fun you had with the game...
Plus, which version did you play? Take PS3 one... Excellent my ass! One of the worst porting jobs I've seen in ages. But of course I do agree that plot lines from previous games get addressed in most awesome way.

w00tage:

RedEyesBlackGamer:
I look forward to The Big Picture episode where he gets on his soapbox and starts hurling insults at us.

Me too. I like hearing (but don't necessarily agree with) his views on things, so this one would be interesting.

Its like watching that special kid doing something very, very stupid. You know you shouldnt laugh at him because he is not all there, but you just cant help it.

Moviebob is that kid.

xXxJessicaxXx:

Is anyone else finding it hard to play the game through again knowing how it ends? I love the multiplayer but I haven't touched the single player game since I finished it.

I feel the same way for playing through me3, originally I had planned to do a whole bunch of playthroughs but after that ending... Yeh lost motivation and only play me3 for the multi aswell.

w00tage:

RedEyesBlackGamer:
I look forward to The Big Picture episode where he gets on his soapbox and starts hurling insults at us.

Me too. I like hearing (but don't necessarily agree with) his views on things, so this one would be interesting.

He is actually going to address it in his other show, the Game Overthinker. I checked the site and sure enough, the next episode is covering the ME3 controversy. As T.O. would say, "Get your popcorn ready."

Bioware promised, and they didn't deliver. They now have a mandatory obligation to unfuck themselves and fix the ending.

Eh. I usually like what MovieBob has to say, but he has always been way to into objectivism for my tastes.

Objectivism, and the idea of "an artists work is sacred and solely their own!!" is silly to begin with.

It's even sillier when applied to an interactive medium.

Bob is being Bob and crying about how people don't give a crap about the things he does. In this case, games being art and unchangeable after release.

Its funny because I doubt the fans that want to change the ending care if gaming is art. They feel they were wronged and are now doing things to try and "fix" their situation.

Thats it. The majority of people don't care if games are taken seriously or as ART or whatever, they just want to be entertained. Not validating themselves for enjoying a hobby or get a nice big feeling of superiority for enjoying an "art form".

I'll wait to see how much they changed the ending before I give my opinion on it. I don't think a small change is bad, like adding several seconds of footage or something. Hell, Witcher 2 Extended Edition is adding new ending cinematics and nobody seems to be crying about that...

Okay third post in this thread but I just had to say. This entire scenario, (Fanboys bitch, developers go oh shit and change the ending) happened entirely verbatim regarding Metal Gear Solid 4. You know what happened? Nobody cared.

So, was this just 12 plus pages of people talking about how much they don't care about MovieBob's opinions? And then proceeding to give their opinions on MovieBob's opinions? Yeah, that seems logical.

I personally don't care about the "controversy" or anyone's opinions on it.

Then again, I haven't played Mass Effect 3. Yet.

Lord_Gremlin:
Sorry, I should have clarified that my post relates to ME3 ending, not the whole ME3 game. Although I would also argue that ending ruins whatever fun you had with the game...

Well, that's something I can certainly relate to. I don't think the ending ruins the rest of the game, but I don't really enjoy it quite as much as I did before I finished it.

Lord_Gremlin:
Plus, which version did you play? Take PS3 one... Excellent my ass! One of the worst porting jobs I've seen in ages. But of course I do agree that plot lines from previous games get addressed in most awesome way.

I play it on PC. I can't stand the controls for the PS3, so I never bothered to get one.

I agree with MovieBob, you're being a buch of crybabies.

goose4291:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3536-Going-Green-Part-II

Odd how when it happens in the comic book world he's cool with it...

Except they didn't change the ending. Sooooo, I dunno.

Revolutionaryloser:

Except they didn't change the ending. Sooooo, I dunno.

It's not to do with the changing of the end, it's the attitude he takes regarding Mass Effect fans at large.

And though they didn't change the ending it's more to do with how DC caved into the fan outcry and campaign to bring him back to the way he was before they changed the story line.

Devoneaux:

Lord_Gremlin:
MovieBob's point would have been 100% valid... But in this case the actual content of endings matter. The sheer idiocy of it... I can't remember any move or book that comes up with something so flat-out stupid.
What, next thing George Lucas will re-release Star Wars and turn Darth Vader into rainbow unicorn and Death Star will be destroyed by the power of love of two lesbian black chicks. Would you defend this idiocy too? Or you will say that re-release is a piece of crap unworthy of being put in close proximity of actual art?
The problem with ME3 is that it's actually that bad already. It's not art. ME3 is a shitty consumer product. And is treated as one.

If you wanna blame someone, blame Bioware. They sacked original writer during ME2 development and put an idiotic rock song "Starchild" in the end instead of actual one. ME3 is an example of corporation botching art, where writers get fired and producers write story based on bad songs and stock images.
Shame on you, Moviebob. There goes your credibility.

Now did they actually fire him or did he just leave? Sources! I NEED SOURCES!

If you look at the situation as a whole, it looks a lot like he got shoved out the door. I mean, he was working on an ongoing project, and just up and leaves during that project without looking and securing another job first?

Usually, if you're working someplace and you want to find something better, you'll actually line up something better before leaving your job. Usually. It's not proof, but it does look kinda suspicious.

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