Why do people say Crysis 1 is a "generic shooter" ?

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I dont really know what generic means but Ill assume it means "more of the same".

Other than it being a shooter, I dont remember any game being so damn difficult (I think I was on hard difficulty but it may have been normal), bloody even STALKER on very hard difficulty was easier than this, I felt that it was impossible to go call of duty/rambo style into fights as you would get shot by enemys you couldnt see, lose shields and get shot down to 50% health then die, super speed just means you can run into combat to die quicker, super strength is useful for sniping but if you actually try to run at someone and then punch them then dont expect to still be alive on most occasions and stealth was just useless as the koreans have good hearing and can hear you when you get too close.

I was actually starting to wonder wether or not I read the game right as it told me you play as some sort of supersoldier but every moment I played that game I was fearing every korean I would ecounter as shotguns beat supersoldiers it turns out, even with shields.

also shooting is just shit if you dont have super strength, my bullet spread was all over the place and even if you did hit them, they wouldnt fucking die. But man I loved that game, never completed it but I liked it.

Treblaine:

But maximum speed IS jsut a glorified sprint that uses suit power! It's the only feature of that mode

Max speed also increases action times like reloading. Max speed is much faster in Crysis 1 and still allows you to sprint normally. Crysis 1's speed also increased movement in every position so you had multiple different options while Crysis 2 simply drains suit energy whenever you want to sprint, regardless of how you want to use it.

Treblaine:

There is NOTHING AUTOMATIC. Auto aim makes intelligent decisions for you, the controls in Crysis 2 doesn't. There is NO special context menus, in Crysis 2 you can hold down melee button anywhere.

Kicking a car is context sensitive in Crysis 2. If you're not at the right angle it isn't going to work. I never said anything about menus.

Treblaine:

Why the hell should the control layouts be "secret" and "Obscure" that you didn't even know you have to crack.

Never said control layouts should be secret. They shouldn't. But clearly they weren't difficult to find/figure out for the rest of us.

Treblaine:

In all this you NEVER directly address any one of my specific problems such as:
-how the game and the Wiki doesn't explain suit shortcut controls
-the inability to super sprint and super jump at the same instance with separate modes, and other problems with separate modes idea.
-the stupid design decisions with the Radial menu, even if radial menu in principal is a good idea.

-I don't why they don't explain it. But it was easy to find and that doesn't affect my enjoyment of the actual game itself.
-Double tap sprint to go into max speed, then double tap jump to max jump. Bam. No it isn't as elegant as it could be, but it's no more inelegant than having to hold the jump button down. You also can use the radial menu (which is normally what I do) because you do retain momentum from maximum speed for a short time.
-Yeah it could have been better, but once you get over the base controls, the mechanics can do a lot more.

Treblaine:

Crysis 1 controls you DO NOT get more freedom! You have LESS freedom compared to Crysis 2 as it is impossible to use two suit modes at the same time. You Cannot sprint while using other powers, after picking something up you can't super-throw while continuously tracking a target.

I don't get you, I really don't get you, why do you keep saying Crysis 2 controls are "compromised" when I have demonstrated that in every objective way they are NOT compromised but IMPROVED in their capability! Please, explain to me what is so "compromised" about a control scheme that allows you to combine Super-Sprint and Super-Jump for the furthest leaps?

Improved is not the opposite of compromised. The Crysis 2 controls are easier to get into but the mechanics do less, and once you get past the learning curve, you're more powerful with the Crysis 1 suit than Crysis 2.

Treblaine:

Because these developers have endeavoured to make things better and yet people shit on their work from 20'000 feet and say the awkward controls of the previous game were good enough and reject all the improvements for no adequately explained reason. People like you are standing in the way of progress, unable to see or accept when things have improved by relishing in poor design.

You seem to think controls are the end all be all ultimate test of game design, and I absolutely disagree with that. Crysis 1 had awkward controls at first, but once you get over that and work with it they're very comfortable.

It's ridiculous to me that you seem to think controls are the pinnacle of progress. You seriously think limiting the nanosuit, limiting the environment, limiting the graphics, limiting the multiplayer, limiting the physics, limiting the game, is all excused because the controls feel more fluid? If anything it's you standing in the way of progress because you hold such a trivial matter to such high standards that you'd forsake everything else in the actual game just so it's a little easier for you to use.

EDIT: Crysis 2 was good. Probably the best of the more confined shooters that I've played (that includes Half Life 2), but it could have been more if it hadn't been so constrained.

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Treblaine:

But maximum speed IS jsut a glorified sprint that uses suit power! It's the only feature of that mode

Max speed also increases action times like reloading. Max speed is much faster in Crysis 1 and still allows you to sprint normally. Crysis 1's speed also increased movement in every position so you had multiple different options while Crysis 2 simply drains suit energy whenever you want to sprint, regardless of how you want to use it.

Sprinting in Crysis 2 does kinda make sense with the story - the suit was just keeping Alcatraz's dead/dying body held together so yeah.

Speed in Crysis 1 was so much better though, zipping to cover and around enemies was just awesome.

Breadline:

But compare reloading speed in Crysis 2 to Crysis 1... it's like Speed-mode reloading is always there. Which has to be good for game balance as the time you want to reload quickly is when under fire when you'll want to have Max-armour.

"Crysis 1's speed also increased movement in every position so you had multiple different options while Crysis 2 simply drains suit energy whenever you want to sprint, regardless of how you want to use it. "

That doesn't make any sense. What does "in every position" mean? Do you mean regular sprint (not max speed sprint) and by "very position" you mean "every suit mode"? Well it's superfluous having two modes of sprint and in Crysis 1 the regular sprint was just so slow. Crysis 2 the default movement speed was the speed of Crysis 1 (in non-Max-Speed mode) with sprint key held down. I ALWAYS wanted to move around at that speed in Crysis 1, I got cramp in my pinkie constantly holding down the sprint key.

Car punting in Crysis 1 is also context sensitive, you just didn't know it because an icon didn't appear on screen. In Crysis 1 you do in fact have a separate attack that is context sensitive on facing the vechicle in the right way. Same as Crysis 2, if you are at the wrong angle you will harmlessly punch it. Difference is in Crysis 2 you can more easily execute the car "throw" with the push of ONE button (rather than radial menu) for jsut one super punch not be left in strength mode and get to that position more effectively while in Max-Armour or Cloak Engaged.

"But (suit shortcuts) clearly they weren't difficult to find/figure out for the rest of us."

Clearly? Again fallaciously claiming apparent when it flies in the face of established facts. The wiki never figured it out. This thread is full of people who didn't figure it out. Half the forums on inCrysis act completely oblivious to it. You (or the other guy) earlier admitted you don't even remember where you figured it out from!

Sorry, you lose momentum for Max-Speed sprinting VERY quickly! You'd have to triple-tap jump while sprinting to perform that maximum jump. In Crysis 2 all you have to do is hold jump for anything longer than a single tap, about 0.2-sec hold time and it super-jumps right after that time.

"The Crysis 2 controls are easier to get into but the mechanics do less, and once you get past the learning curve, you're more powerful with the Crysis 1 suit than Crysis 2."

For the love of all reason and logic..

HOW!?!?!

How are you less powerful? Is it the cloak time, which is longer in Crysis 2? The more effective Armour mode in Crysis 2? The ability to sprint-super-jump in Crysis 2 without needing a guitar-hero-like button combination so it's actually worth trying?

How are the mechanics less? With the ability to combine suit modes in a total of 8 combinations in Crysis 2?

Learning curve? It's not worth it trying to learn to use the radial menu that quick. And anyway, the game is unreasonable in how quickly the suit uses that meagre energy reserve when Max-speed sprinting as if you take too long to switch there isn't even enough energy to make the super-jump and you just plough straight into the minefield you are trying to vault over!

Anything Crysis 1 can do Crysis 2 can do better.

"You seem to think controls are the end all be all ultimate test of game design"

YES A MILLION TIMES! What do you think is more important... graphics? Go watch Avatar. The controls DEFINE it as a computer game rather than any other type of game!

This is the main freaking appeal of PC gaming, better controls in breadth, precision and capability. I'd argue scientifically that keyboard is an inherently superior input for movement in an FPS game, better even than a thumbstick. For one its far easier to circle-strafe and REMEMBER to circle strafe actively pressing A or D to move laterally.

You have crossed the line here:

" You seriously think limiting the nanosuit, [NO!]
limiting the environment, [NO!]
limiting the graphics, [NO!]
limiting the multiplayer, [NO!]
limiting the physics, [NO!]
limiting the game, [NO!]

is all excused because the controls feel more fluid?"

We CANNOT discuss anything if you base your argument on such obvious falsehoods. I have explained this to you and you have simply denied it. I repeatedly say it wasn't limited, I proved it wasn't limited, yet you have the nerve to say:

"You seriously think limiting (every aspect of the game) is all excused because the controls feel more fluid?"

There is no limitation nor compromise!

-Limiting the Nanosuit: NO. Not this AGAIN. The suit has not been limited, everything you can do with nanosuit in Crysis 1 you can do in Crysis 2. Half the things you can do with nanosuit in crysis 2 you CANNOT do with nanosuit in Crysis 1.

-Limited environment: NO. It has been CHANGED. The breadth of gameplay possibilities have been in no way limited in net by setting it in a city.

-Limited graphics: NO. The console version predictably has turned down settings but PC version has the full gamut of the Highest settings and more than that, it uses the latest rendering techniques

-Limited multiplayer: No. Crysis 2 has more features in multiplayer than Crysis 1

-Limited Physics: No. The physics have been made more realistic, no more cannonball coffee cups or supposedly resting objects jittering and bouncing in-perpetuity.

And EVEN IF these had been compromised, that is no reason to oppose superior controls as the state of the graphics is ultimately completely separate. The graphics can be more or less ambitious, but are the controls designed better or worse?

In almost every objective way Crysis 2 is better than or equal (so close it's negligible) to Crysis 1.

If you liked Crysis 1 but liked Crysis 2 less, you are going to have to come up with better reasons than what you have given as it seem to be entirely based on flawed ideas and false assertions if not down right prejudice (like it not PC exclusive).

Treblaine:

But compare reloading speed in Crysis 2 to Crysis 1... it's like Speed-mode reloading is always there. Which has to be good for game balance as the time you want to reload quickly is when under fire when you'll want to have Max-armour.

Which is automatic and not as enjoyable. If it's there automatically then there's no variable for you to alter with any amount of skill.

Treblaine:

That doesn't make any sense. What does "in every position" mean?

I mean position as in standing, crouching, prone.

Treblaine:

Car punting in Crysis 1 is also context sensitive, you just didn't know it because an icon didn't appear on screen. In Crysis 1 you do in fact have a separate attack that is context sensitive on facing the vechicle in the right way.

...You didn't have context-sensitive car punting Crysis 1, you hit something and physics took care of it. In Crysis 2 you have to be positioned correctly for the kick to work.

Treblaine:

Clearly? Again fallaciously claiming apparent when it flies in the face of established facts. The wiki never figured it out. This thread is full of people who didn't figure it out. Half the forums on inCrysis act completely oblivious to it. You (or the other guy) earlier admitted you don't even remember where you figured it out from!

And yet amazingly, if you Google "crysis nanosuit shortcuts", the top result is a page written five years ago that simply and clearly states what they do. Yes it should've been more obvious but come on. The reason I don't remember where I figured it out from is because it probably took me a few seconds. And further this has no affect on the actual game.

Treblaine:

Sorry, you lose momentum for Max-Speed sprinting VERY quickly! You'd have to triple-tap jump while sprinting to perform that maximum jump. In Crysis 2 all you have to do is hold jump for anything longer than a single tap, about 0.2-sec hold time and it super-jumps right after that time.

Triple tap jump? Where did that come from? Do you mean double tap? That's still faster than holding the button. Having to hold the button instead of double tap or the radial menu does take longer and thus is a compromise. The same is true for melee. The first game let's you get up to a person, double tap melee or use the radial menu and hit him, it takes only as long as you take. The Crysis 2 forces you to charge up your punch like a chump no matter how quick you are.

Treblaine:

Anything Crysis 1 can do Crysis 2 can do better.

Crysis 1 can do everything faster once you get good at it. because the powers depend on you far more. You don't have to wait for maximum strength, you have more options with maximum speed, maximum armor doesn't slow you down to a crawl (though I enjoy armor more in crysis 2), and cloak feels far more balanced (gasp, subjective!)

Treblaine:

You have crossed the line here:

" You seriously think limiting the nanosuit, [NO!]
limiting the environment, [NO!]
limiting the graphics, [NO!]
limiting the multiplayer, [NO!]
limiting the physics, [NO!]
limiting the game, [NO!]

I've explained this already. You keep ignoring it.
Nanosuit - The player's control of the powers has been limited. When maximum strength isn't context sensitive, it requires you to hold the button which takes longer than doing it in Crysis 1. Maximum speed has become nothing more than a slightly inconvenient sprint button that's slower than Crysis 1's speed and automated any other features. And you can string together powers, just because you couldn't do it doesn't mean it's impossible.
Environment - This is obvious. The levels in Crysis 1 may have been linear overall, but they were still very open and allowed you an extremely wide area to maneuver. Some of the maps are huge with multiple objectives that you can attack in any order at any angle, sometimes with optional vehicles. Crysis 2 is far more cramped. Often times the only way to flank an enemy is to use the specifically designated route that the game points at and says "HEY LOOK YOU CAN FLANK EM HERE!" The environment has absolutely been limited.
Graphics - I played Crysis 2 when it first came out where that was definitely true. It has probably been fixed by now, so I'll concede this point because I don't enough about it.
Multiplayer - 32 player matches with vehicles, capturable buildings, huge maps, and nuclear weapons has been limited to short matches between a small amount of people on tiny maps. You think adding more superficial carrot-on-a-stick features makes up for the actual gameplay?
Physics - Not nearly as many dynamic objects, almost no destruction. Physics have been delegated to specific objects, often of which only use pseudo-physics with context sensitive actions. Making it more "realistic" (such as "realistically" being unable to break a skinny sidewalk tree with a grenade) has nothing to do with limitations. There is less of it, it is limited.

Treblaine:

We CANNOT discuss anything if you base your argument on such obvious falsehoods. I have explained this to you and you have simply denied it. I repeatedly say it wasn't limited, I proved it wasn't limited, yet you have the nerve to say:

"You seriously think limiting (every aspect of the game) is all excused because the controls feel more fluid?"

There is no limitation nor compromise!

Everything I said above was factually true, and issues making powers like strength take longer is a compromise no matter how small you think it is.

Treblaine:

And EVEN IF these had been compromised, that is no reason to oppose superior controls as the state of the graphics is ultimately completely separate. The graphics can be more or less ambitious, but are the controls designed better or worse?

Why in the hell do you keep saying this? I absolutely do not oppose better controls. I have said that time and time again and it's comments like this that make me sure you're just glazing over everything I write. Crysis 1 absolutely did have awkward controls, it absolutely could have done better. My point this whole time is that it's very possible to get over that flaw and find a very rewarding experience that's actually based on how you utilize the powers. Once you get over the controls, the mechanics of Crysis 1's powers allowed for a higher level of skill.

Treblaine:

The problem is muscle memory, all all the mouse-gesture interfaces not just in games but in interfaces for browsers it is done at 90-degrees segments and possibly further sub-divided into 45-degree segments. This 5-way 72-degree split defies ALL the muscle memory! It's needlessly different and all that is to put something in there that doesn't even need to be in there!!! Can't you recognise the failure in ergonomic design here?

"Making speed/strength the default suit power felt stupid to me since it meant you were always using up energy."

Well that is just plain ignorant as in the game the suit is NOT always using up energy in Crysis 2. Only when you ACTUALLY sprint or ACTUALLY PERFORM a strength move is energy used. The default movement speed is about the speed you move in Crysis-1-Max-Armour with sprint always held down. If you run out of energy in either Crysis 1 OR 2 you cannot sprint away at super speed. Super-sprint is slightly slower in Crysis 2 but is traded off by you can overall go further on its energy consumption rate. The speed was ultimately too fast in Crysis 1, you'd fly into object or enemies before they are actually rendered.

"And holding down the attack key to power-throw an object takes more time than quickly switching modes and hitting the throw key."

That defies the logic of its use in practice. Not only does it take time to switch modes (even if you are super fast there is a lag in the actual switching) but you only have to hold down for anything longer than a tap and WHILE you are holding it down your fingers and mind are free to focus on aiming your shot AND you can do all this while in Max-armour.

So while in max-armour (protected) you can instantly pick something up something heavy and as soon as it is in you hand, hold down throw key/button as you look around and aim at what you want to throw at and release.

The enemies react differently because the physics actually make sense, you can't throw an empty cardboard box at a heavily armoured soldier and expect the impact to send them flying like hit by a cannonball. The game has been IMPROVED with satisfyingly accurate physics.

" Even if the (destructible environment) didn't do much for you, don't you think it's better that they were there?"

Well from the sake of facile bragging rights of "we got it" yes, but it was so poorly implemented it's worthless. It wasn't really destructible environments, more like a delicate arrangement of indestructible boards that clipped and jittered annoyingly when they did collapse. It had no gameplay use like for blowing a hole in a wall or roof for alternate access. IF (big if) Battlefield 3 style destructible environments HAD been in Crysis 1 there but was absent in the sequel. that would be bad.

Actually, most of the environments of Crysis 1 were indestructible. So many times I tried to blow a hole through a wall or fortification and it shrugged it off like I had just thrown a water balloon at it. Both Crysis 1 and Crysis 2 had pre-animated explosions that significantly deformed the environment in response to specific ations, so it's a zero sum change there.

You do make some good points. I understand what you're talking about with the muscle memory thing, but I guess it comes down to preference in the end. I assume Crytek put the customisation option on the radial menu so that if you say, suddenly came across an enemy jeep, you could quickly slap a grenade launcher on to your rifle and start shooting. I suppose it'd be just as quick to hit the weapon customisation key, but Crytek probably thought they were being convenient by giving you the options. Maybe it is a failure in ergonomic design, but I don't think too many people during the game development thought so, or else they'd have ditched it by the release date.

My statement on having speed/strength mode as the default suit power: when I said that 'you were always using up energy' I didn't mean it literally. I apologise for using a bad choice of words there. Rather I was poking fun at the sprint that always used up energy, even though the sprint never made you go really fast.

As for the power throw thing, I guess it also comes down to preference. I still think that holding down the attack button takes longer than just toggling the suit mode and hitting the throw key. It's very hard to power throw something in Crysis 2 when you're being shot at, since being shot takes energy, no matter what suit mode you're in. Mind you, I once power threw a barrel at a guy and it went straight through him. I'm assuming this was a glitch so maybe Crytek has fixed it with a patch.

I don't know about you, but I always found it satisfying to punch down a wall in Crysis 1 and watch the small structure collapse on the person inside. The game was fairly consistent with what you could and couldn't destroy, so I don't know why you tried to blow a hole through a wall or fortification. That being said, I do agree with your point about it being not really 'destructible environment' as such. I wish however that Crysis 2 had offered more destruction than what it did. I wasn't expecting to be running down solid light posts with a car, but what about a small wooden park bench?

My biggest complaint with Crysis 2 is that for me it wasn't as much fun. It was more realistic, yes, but not as much fun. Throwing a chicken or a tree branch at a guy may not be realistic, but it's fun (from what I recall, small power-thrown objects couldn't knock down enemies anyway). In the first game you felt like a god. In number two, the nanosuit just feels weaker (I'm not talking about the armor mode, I'm talking about thr nanosuit in general). No more punching up guards with your bare fists. No more picking up a dude and instantly throwing him at another dude to knock them both down, because usually you'll get shot first, and so your energy will decrease (in Crysis 2 it slowly decreases when you're holding someone anyway), then you won't be able to power throw the guy because you don't have enough energy, then you'll run out of energy completely and so your character will throw the dude away automatically, with no effect on the other dude that you were aiming at. No more super sprinting up to an enemy, picking him up, and throwing him to the ground. No more throwing a large trash bin at a guy and watching him fly away twenty feet.

Having accurate physics doesn't make a game fun, just realistic. In my opinion anyway.

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That's not automatic to always have a faster reload speed, you only reload on your command, nothing is done without your consent. If the nanosuit muscle fibres can speed up gun reloading, then that should be possible all the time, not just when in a particular mode.

Crysis 1 you automatically go to standing when using Max Speed sprint.

No, there IS different mode for punting a car that was context-sensitive in Crysis 1.

"Triple tap jump? Where did that come from?"

Double tap to enter strength mode, and a further tap to actually perform super jump. Verses: just holding down jump for 0.2 of a second. Crysis 1 can only possibly be faster if you have Morse-code fast fingers and distract large parts of your brain from calculating enemy position + strategy formation to changing simple controls!

Considering how dangerous it is to NOT have max-armour on in Crysis, how you can only switch to Max-strength when you absolutely need it... then it DEFINITELY takes longer to perform strength attacks in Crysis 1 compared to Crysis 2. It is COMPLETELY impractical trying so overlap suit modes in Crysis 1, it's not freaking worth it.

You're looking at the change to city scape you are ONLY looking at what has been lost - the sprawling and undulating width - and ignoring what has been granted, mainly the greatly increased verticality, layers and effect of corners and elevated ledges. Helicopters that move in and out of cover behind objects. This is no overall limitation on gameplay. It's clearly no console limitation as Far Cry 2 copies the Crysis moulds of map layout. The developers for crysis 2 wanted MORE gameplay variety and were LIMITED by the jungle environment that they were probably sick of after having it for every on of their games since Far Cry 1.

Crysis 2 actually has just as many dynamic objects as Crysis 1 in terms of stuff too pick up and throw. The only absence are those glitchy jenga buildings that added nothing to the game but an awkward tech demo for what passes for destructible environments. The concrete buildings in Crysis 1 were indestructible by any of your means. Most of the buildings in Crysis 2 were concrete. You CAN shoot the trees to pieces with your gun in Crysis 2, just like Crysis 1

You are a broken record on this strength thing, your problem is you have ZERO consideration to ergonomic design. It's not enough that theoretically you can switch to strength mode instantaneously with the radial menu, the ERGONOMICS (look it up) mean it is in practice much slower and the further time wasting of having to change back. You do NOT have to hold the button for any longer than a fraction of a second and needs no further mental load.

Well I guess all we have is opinion. You think it is worth is "getting over" Crysis 1's admittedly terrible controls but I have proven you can be just as capable and MORE capable with Crysis 2's controls where there is nothing to get over. Superiority. That's what I spent vast amounts of money on PC trying to get, not something to "get over". I hear people saying you can "get over" aiming with a thumbstick in console games but everyone knows a mouse is in every way better, it's the same case with Crysis 2's controls.

SayHelloToMrBullet:

You do make some good points. I understand what you're talking about with the muscle memory thing, but I guess it comes down to preference in the end. I assume Crytek put the customisation option on the radial menu so that if you say, suddenly came across an enemy jeep, you could quickly slap a grenade launcher on to your rifle and start shooting. I suppose it'd be just as quick to hit the weapon customisation key, but Crytek probably thought they were being convenient by giving you the options. Maybe it is a failure in ergonomic design, but I don't think too many people during the game development thought so, or else they'd have ditched it by the release date.

My statement on having speed/strength mode as the default suit power: when I said that 'you were always using up energy' I didn't mean it literally. I apologise for using a bad choice of words there. Rather I was poking fun at the sprint that always used up energy, even though the sprint never made you go really fast.

As for the power throw thing, I guess it also comes down to preference. I still think that holding down the attack button takes longer than just toggling the suit mode and hitting the throw key. It's very hard to power throw something in Crysis 2 when you're being shot at, since being shot takes energy, no matter what suit mode you're in. Mind you, I once power threw a barrel at a guy and it went straight through him. I'm assuming this was a glitch so maybe Crytek has fixed it with a patch.

I don't know about you, but I always found it satisfying to punch down a wall in Crysis 1 and watch the small structure collapse on the person inside. The game was fairly consistent with what you could and couldn't destroy, so I don't know why you tried to blow a hole through a wall or fortification. That being said, I do agree with your point about it being not really 'destructible environment' as such. I wish however that Crysis 2 had offered more destruction than what it did. I wasn't expecting to be running down solid light posts with a car, but what about a small wooden park bench?

My biggest complaint with Crysis 2 is that for me it wasn't as much fun. It was more realistic, yes, but not as much fun. Throwing a chicken or a tree branch at a guy may not be realistic, but it's fun (from what I recall, small power-thrown objects couldn't knock down enemies anyway). In the first game you felt like a god. In number two, the nanosuit just feels weaker (I'm not talking about the armor mode, I'm talking about thr nanosuit in general). No more punching up guards with your bare fists. No more picking up a dude and instantly throwing him at another dude to knock them both down, because usually you'll get shot first, and so your energy will decrease (in Crysis 2 it slowly decreases when you're holding someone anyway), then you won't be able to power throw the guy because you don't have enough energy, then you'll run out of energy completely and so your character will throw the dude away automatically, with no effect on the other dude that you were aiming at. No more super sprinting up to an enemy, picking him up, and throwing him to the ground. No more throwing a large trash bin at a guy and watching him fly away twenty feet.

Having accurate physics doesn't make a game fun, just realistic. In my opinion anyway.

Well I found Crysis 1 hugely frustrating byond the awful radial menu ideas. I was pissed how much sway my weapon had to spite laying prone in strength-mode I had no way to steady my aim, in Crysis 2 it was like a laser. And how if I was in a building soldiers would mag-dump and toss grenades at me and the building would fall on my head and without fail start glitching as the piles of flat polygons clipped in and out of each other.

To spite the breadth of the environments, they were just so undulating that it was hard to really exploit blind spots for flanking.

I don't know if you have played Crysis 2 but you don't realise how short a time you have to hold down to get the super punch, it's really anything longer than a tap becomes a super punch. I guarantee you would REALLY STRUGGLE to deliver super-punches as quick as you can in Crysis 2 in Crysis 1. I've been back and forth between both, I CANNOT be as quick. The quicker I get with crysis 1 the sooner I know when I'm total charge (it's literally a fraction of a second) and can release. Of course super jump you don't have to release, just hold jump and you super-jump as soon as charged.

A game about a nano-suited super-soldier fighting totalitarian soldiers and alien monsters... if the fun is coming from throwing chickens at people then the developers have kind of failed in their tone. The fun in Crysis 2 is actually FROM the scenario they are supposed to be in, not ridiculous shit like throwing chickens at people. That's stuff for the blooper reel. That's more fitting in games like Team Fortress 2, not in a Crysis game. So I didn't miss it.

You can still punch dudes in Crysis 2, what's so special about going two bare fisted? That is just SILLY to ever do that if you have a gun! You can still grab and throw enemies in Crysis 2, it's far easier than in Crysis 1 were you needed strength to do that and without max-armour you got ripped to shreds before you could do anything. You can still super-sprint (that isn't much slower than Crysis 1) and grab enemies, for one the sprint uses suit-energy at a much lower rate it is in fact EASIER to sprint up to a guard, grab them and slam them down in Crysis 2.

Crysis 2 you get WAY more suit energy, and it recharges quicker. It's also way easier to sneak up on or flank enemies in a city scape with so many right angle corners compared to the undulating expanses of the jungle.

Crysis 2 fixed all the frustrations of Crysis 1. While I would like to see them return to the jungle, it's no major need unless they actually exploit the jungle's unique attributes.

We both just keep saying the same things. The difference is that I'm arguing mine largely as an opinion on one of Crysis 2's failings and you keep clinging to this arrogant notion of "proving" your argument to me, despite your explanations of these proofs being mostly based on your subjective perspective of quality and are often justified with facts that don't address the actual issue. And you do this while conveniently ignoring things like how maximum speed affects far more than just a simple (and slower) sprint or how the super jump really does only require a double tap which has no hold time constraint on it like Crysis 2. Also not sure why you keep mentioning PC gaming or the idea of consolization because I certainly haven't.

And have some fucking respect for discussion. You've been vehemently denying anything I say, and no matter the ridiculously subjective nature of those denials, no matter how much I show you that an argument doesn't work, you claim that you've "proven" it to me. You haven't proven anything when I can still do everything faster, and have better control over my suit's powers in Crysis 1. You can't "prove" this by saying it's just as easy to do in Crysis 2 because that entirely misses the point. You seem to think ease of use validates a loss of tactical control, then you argue controls as if it's a binary opposite of mechanics. It's simply not correct to claim that you've proven something based on concepts that aren't directly comparable.

But pretty much my issue comes to this:

Treblaine:

That's not automatic to always have a faster reload speed, you only reload on your command, nothing is done without your consent. If the nanosuit muscle fibres can speed up gun reloading, then that should be possible all the time, not just when in a particular mode.

You basically spelled out the problem I've had this whole time. Reread this quote because it epitomizes the issue. The suit power is used automatically when you reload, removing any control from the player. In the exact same line of reasoning, if Crysis 3 comes out and automates even more you'd say maximum strength isn't automatic because it activates when you melee or maximum speed isn't automatic because it activates when you sprint (already works this way), and those powers should be possible at all times because something something nanosuit muscle fibers.

It's a specifically blind justification for a system that did in fact limit player control. No matter how much easier it is for you to use, it still makes speed and strength less of a tactical option at any given time, limiting how I get to choose, how I allocate my resources and plan my fight. Hell even your precious wiki lists strength as a passive secondary mode and doesn't even list speed as a main or secondary mode. if simplifying and streamlining was indicative of quality, we'd all be playing iOS games. I have no issue with you liking Crysis 2's system better, but don't say you've "proven" to me Crysis 2's superiority by way of streamlining or that I get in the way of progress by not supporting simplification.

I like having more options that allow for a higher level of skill. If two people in a firefight have to reload, I absolutely support the idea that one of them could get an edge by switching to speed mode in order to reload or switch weapons faster. More tangible player options add increased variety and control of actions. It puts more variables in play and makes for a more engaging experience. I'm the type who would love games to have something like this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/677391/Demo.html where manually having to reload and pull back the slide allows a slightly higher level of skill to develop. If the sequel to that demo made reloading and other actions into simple animation, the function stays the same but that player's interaction and overall control becomes limited.

Breadline:
We both just keep saying the same things. The difference is that I'm arguing mine largely as an opinion on one of Crysis 2's failings and you keep clinging to this arrogant notion of "proving" your argument to me, despite your explanations of these proofs being mostly based on your subjective perspective of quality and are often justified with facts that don't address the actual issue. And you do this while conveniently ignoring things like how maximum speed affects far more than just a simple (and slower) sprint or how the super jump really does only require a double tap which has no hold time constraint on it like Crysis 2. Also not sure why you keep mentioning PC gaming or the idea of consolization because I certainly haven't.

And have some fucking respect for discussion. You've been vehemently denying anything I say, and no matter the ridiculously subjective nature of those denials, no matter how much I show you that an argument doesn't work, you claim that you've "proven" it to me. You haven't proven anything when I can still do everything faster, and have better control over my suit's powers in Crysis 1. You can't "prove" this by saying it's just as easy to do in Crysis 2 because that entirely misses the point. You seem to think ease of use validates a loss of tactical control, then you argue controls as if it's a binary opposite of mechanics. It's simply not correct to claim that you've proven something based on concepts that aren't directly comparable.

But pretty much my issue comes to this:

Treblaine:

That's not automatic to always have a faster reload speed, you only reload on your command, nothing is done without your consent. If the nanosuit muscle fibres can speed up gun reloading, then that should be possible all the time, not just when in a particular mode.

You basically spelled out the problem I've had this whole time. Reread this quote because it epitomizes the issue. The suit power is used automatically when you reload, removing any control from the player. In the exact same line of reasoning, if Crysis 3 comes out and automates even more you'd say maximum strength isn't automatic because it activates when you melee or maximum speed isn't automatic because it activates when you sprint (already works this way), and those powers should be possible at all times because something something nanosuit muscle fibers.

It's a specifically blind justification for a system that did in fact limit player control. No matter how much easier it is for you to use, it still makes speed and strength less of a tactical option at any given time, limiting how I get to choose, how I allocate my resources and plan my fight. Hell even your precious wiki lists strength as a passive secondary mode and doesn't even list speed as a main or secondary mode. if simplifying and streamlining was indicative of quality, we'd all be playing iOS games. I have no issue with you liking Crysis 2's system better, but don't say you've "proven" to me Crysis 2's superiority by way of streamlining or that I get in the way of progress by not supporting simplification.

I like having more options that allow for a higher level of skill. If two people in a firefight have to reload, I absolutely support the idea that one of them could get an edge by switching to speed mode in order to reload or switch weapons faster. More tangible player options add increased variety and control of actions. It puts more variables in play and makes for a more engaging experience. I'm the type who would love games to have something like this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/677391/Demo.html where manually having to reload and pull back the slide allows a slightly higher level of skill to develop. If the sequel to that demo made reloading and other actions into simple animation, the function stays the same but that player's interaction and overall control becomes limited.

But when would you ever want a slower reload? I get when you'd want to not throw at max force or punch with max force, or move at a slower speed so you don't fly off and edge or out of cover.

You can vehemently claim that double tapping to ENTER strength mode is an adequate shortcut to just quickly do a single super-jump but I think this speaks for itself. But surely you can see how most people will find it more tactically flexible to just hold jump for a fraction of a second than try to perform multiple taps.

"Hell even your precious wiki lists strength as a passive secondary mode and doesn't even list speed as a main or secondary mode."

So what? It's a false assumption that the abilities should be divided into discrete modes.

The point is these abilities are capable and surely you can see that is is better that these abilities they are NOT subdivided into 4 discrete modes. Especially when there is no direct single-key-press to go from one mode to the other.

Simplification is a dirty word for how it implies that features are limited. Except in the case Crysis 2 there are no limitations, you have more PRACTICAL options. It is PRACTICAL to press one key to engage sprint then hold jump to super jump, versus the rapid and precise key presses and gestures needed to do the same thing with Crysis 1 controls. It's utterly pointless if Speed Mode has you reload slightly quicker if it takes you a certain amount of tiem to switch to speed mode then switch back to the mode you actually need to be in.

I have proven the controls are not limited, you have not refuted my points. You have simply denied them and then based your assumptions on that.

How is it a limitation to always reload at faster speed? That's an advantage. You CANNOT paint Crysis 2 as some iOS game no matter how much you assert it.

Treblaine:

Breadline:
We both just keep saying the same things. The difference is that I'm arguing mine largely as an opinion on one of Crysis 2's failings and you keep clinging to this arrogant notion of "proving" your argument to me, despite your explanations of these proofs being mostly based on your subjective perspective of quality and are often justified with facts that don't address the actual issue. And you do this while conveniently ignoring things like how maximum speed affects far more than just a simple (and slower) sprint or how the super jump really does only require a double tap which has no hold time constraint on it like Crysis 2. Also not sure why you keep mentioning PC gaming or the idea of consolization because I certainly haven't.

And have some fucking respect for discussion. You've been vehemently denying anything I say, and no matter the ridiculously subjective nature of those denials, no matter how much I show you that an argument doesn't work, you claim that you've "proven" it to me. You haven't proven anything when I can still do everything faster, and have better control over my suit's powers in Crysis 1. You can't "prove" this by saying it's just as easy to do in Crysis 2 because that entirely misses the point. You seem to think ease of use validates a loss of tactical control, then you argue controls as if it's a binary opposite of mechanics. It's simply not correct to claim that you've proven something based on concepts that aren't directly comparable.

But pretty much my issue comes to this:

Treblaine:

That's not automatic to always have a faster reload speed, you only reload on your command, nothing is done without your consent. If the nanosuit muscle fibres can speed up gun reloading, then that should be possible all the time, not just when in a particular mode.

You basically spelled out the problem I've had this whole time. Reread this quote because it epitomizes the issue. The suit power is used automatically when you reload, removing any control from the player. In the exact same line of reasoning, if Crysis 3 comes out and automates even more you'd say maximum strength isn't automatic because it activates when you melee or maximum speed isn't automatic because it activates when you sprint (already works this way), and those powers should be possible at all times because something something nanosuit muscle fibers.

It's a specifically blind justification for a system that did in fact limit player control. No matter how much easier it is for you to use, it still makes speed and strength less of a tactical option at any given time, limiting how I get to choose, how I allocate my resources and plan my fight. Hell even your precious wiki lists strength as a passive secondary mode and doesn't even list speed as a main or secondary mode. if simplifying and streamlining was indicative of quality, we'd all be playing iOS games. I have no issue with you liking Crysis 2's system better, but don't say you've "proven" to me Crysis 2's superiority by way of streamlining or that I get in the way of progress by not supporting simplification.

I like having more options that allow for a higher level of skill. If two people in a firefight have to reload, I absolutely support the idea that one of them could get an edge by switching to speed mode in order to reload or switch weapons faster. More tangible player options add increased variety and control of actions. It puts more variables in play and makes for a more engaging experience. I'm the type who would love games to have something like this http://dl.dropbox.com/u/677391/Demo.html where manually having to reload and pull back the slide allows a slightly higher level of skill to develop. If the sequel to that demo made reloading and other actions into simple animation, the function stays the same but that player's interaction and overall control becomes limited.

But when would you ever want a slower reload? I get when you'd want to not throw at max force or punch with max force, or move at a slower speed so you don't fly off and edge or out of cover.

You can vehemently claim that double tapping to ENTER strength mode is an adequate shortcut to just quickly do a single super-jump but I think this speaks for itself. But surely you can see how most people will find it more tactically flexible to just hold jump for a fraction of a second than try to perform multiple taps.

"Hell even your precious wiki lists strength as a passive secondary mode and doesn't even list speed as a main or secondary mode."

So what? It's a false assumption that the abilities should be divided into discrete modes.

The point is these abilities are capable and surely you can see that is is better that these abilities they are NOT subdivided into 4 discrete modes. Especially when there is no direct single-key-press to go from one mode to the other.

Simplification is a dirty word for how it implies that features are limited. Except in the case Crysis 2 there are no limitations, you have more PRACTICAL options. It is PRACTICAL to press one key to engage sprint then hold jump to super jump, versus the rapid and precise key presses and gestures needed to do the same thing with Crysis 1 controls. It's utterly pointless if Speed Mode has you reload slightly quicker if it takes you a certain amount of tiem to switch to speed mode then switch back to the mode you actually need to be in.

I have proven the controls are not limited, you have not refuted my points. You have simply denied them and then based your assumptions on that.

How is it a limitation to always reload at faster speed? That's an advantage. You CANNOT paint Crysis 2 as some iOS game no matter how much you assert it.

The great part of Crysis 1 was that you had to balance out all the suit modes and how you wanted to spend your energy - if that was all streamlined and simplified it would take a whole dimension out of the game.

I'm all for key shortcuts in the game like Crysis 2 did, but changing every to be automatic is just too much.

Treblaine:

But when would you ever want a slower reload?

I didn't say anything as simple as that. I think you missed my point. I would want a variable reload speed that depends on the player.

Treblaine:

You can vehemently claim that double tapping to ENTER strength mode is an adequate shortcut to just quickly do a single super-jump

Why do you keep saying that? Double tapping space performs a super jump. And it's factually true that I can perform the super jump in Crysis 1 faster than I can in Crysis 2.

Treblaine:

The point is these abilities are capable and surely you can see that is is better that these abilities they are NOT subdivided into 4 discrete modes. Especially when there is no direct single-key-press to go from one mode to the other.

My point is that mixing the powers into each other or automating them defeats the whole idea. When you have four discrete modes that each perform specific functions it's up to you to choose between then. The suit powers are another layer to combat, acting separately from the basic run point shoot and allowing you to weave those powers into that basic routine to create something unique. Once they start becoming integrated and automated they lose the whole purpose of being an added mechanic and simply become a static variable that a programmer increased a bit.

I've said so many times that I agree they should have single button inputs but I'm not arguing about a disparity between learning curves, this is from the perspective of someone who got over the awkward controls.

Treblaine:

Simplification is a dirty word for how it implies that features are limited. Except in the case Crysis 2 there are no limitations, you have more PRACTICAL options.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said you constantly justify your position with unrelated points. You do not "prove" that a limitation doesn't exist by stating it's now more practical. Those concepts do not cancel each other out, you're trying to prove something by saying the better features are simply an adequate compromise. Your proofs are just you claiming "It's close enough to not really matter and Crysis 2 has easier controls, therefore no limitations". The reality is that the player's control, for better or worse, is more limited. There is no denying that. When the game takes control of how mechanics are performed, even slightly, it limits the player that much more. I'm totally willing to call this an extreme difference of opinion if you'd just stop claiming to have "proven" me incorrect with such ridiculous pseudo-logic.

Treblaine:

How is it a limitation to always reload at faster speed? That's an advantage.

Again, you cannot simply disprove a limitation by stating you now have an advantage. You make arbitrary correlations between concepts and use those to "prove" your point.

You also still seem under the impression that limitation exists only as a concept of scaling down. I have constantly said that this is an issue with the player's control being limited.

If there was an attack that made you automatically kill everything in your line of sight, I would call that a limitation on the player's control as it decreases the interactivity and range of possible skill. Would you argue that it's an advantage? The player was gonna shoot everything in their line of sight anyway, surely this can't be an issue because this new attack only does it faster, makes you stronger and is far easier to use. Such an attack could only be good, right?

endtherapture:

The great part of Crysis 1 was that you had to balance out all the suit modes and how you wanted to spend your energy - if that was all streamlined and simplified it would take a whole dimension out of the game.

I'm all for key shortcuts in the game like Crysis 2 did, but changing every to be automatic is just too much.

Helps to read what the dude wrote before.

Also, it's funny how people praise the non linearity and such of the first game when all that gets canned at the last third of the game.

Breadline:
le snip

I'd like to focus in on this quote that seem to underpin the centre of your argument:

"My point is that mixing the powers into each other or automating them defeats the whole idea."

Well that's YOUR idea of the way the game should be.

But did you stop to consider people liked the abilities themselves not the fact that they were LIMITED by being subdivided into discrete modes - that it didn't help how it wasn't as quick and intuitive to switch between them as they could be.

I actually had a chance to fire up Crysis 1 recently and discovered I accepted quite a lot of nonsense you claimed on bad faith:
-In Crysis 1 you cannot jump AT ALL while sprinting, in any mode! Using suit-shortcuts Double tapping jump while sprinting not only do you not jump, but you don't change modes at all.
-Entering radial menu instantly breaks sprint momentum.
-Combining forward velocity of Max-sprint and vertical thrust of Max-strength jump is impossible the way you claim.
-double tapping jump any other time may activate a super-jump but then you are left in strength mode!
-Speed mode has absolutely no effect on reload speed of any of the weapons
-half the trees I found in the jungle in Crysis 1 were indestructible and in fact only a few select trees were in any way destructible
-I also discovered the pistol has a really low fire-cap (about 300rpm)

Note: I am running the latest patch of the Steam version without any patches or special macros. I'm told by my friend the Max-speed-sprint + max-strength- jump is only possible with macros.

Treblaine:

Well I found Crysis 1 hugely frustrating byond the awful radial menu ideas. I was pissed how much sway my weapon had to spite laying prone in strength-mode I had no way to steady my aim, in Crysis 2 it was like a laser. And how if I was in a building soldiers would mag-dump and toss grenades at me and the building would fall on my head and without fail start glitching as the piles of flat polygons clipped in and out of each other.

But at least you can prone in Crysis and from what I recall, there wasn't much sway at all if you were laying prone (there was less sway in Crysis 2, I agree with you there). The building pieces would glitch sometimes, that's very true, but it's not like it broke the game or anything. Crysis 2 still had the problem of enemies weapons getting stuck in the environment. They never fixed that physics issue - removing the destroyable building pieces simply made it less noticeable. BTW, what's wrong with soldiers tossing grenades at you while you're in a destructible building? Isn't that an acceptable strategy? You seem to be implying that it's stupid.

Treblaine:

To spite the breadth of the environments, they were just so undulating that it was hard to really exploit blind spots for flanking.

Not too sure what you mean here. Flanking in Crysis was usually quite easy. There were some parts where it was impossible especially towards the end, but most of the time stealth could allow you to flank any enemy encampment. It's easier to flank in Crysis 2, but that's because the environments are smaller.

Treblaine:

I don't know if you have played Crysis 2 but you don't realise how short a time you have to hold down to get the super punch, it's really anything longer than a tap becomes a super punch. I guarantee you would REALLY STRUGGLE to deliver super-punches as quick as you can in Crysis 2 in Crysis 1. I've been back and forth between both, I CANNOT be as quick. The quicker I get with crysis 1 the sooner I know when I'm total charge (it's literally a fraction of a second) and can release. Of course super jump you don't have to release, just hold jump and you super-jump as soon as charged.

It seems that we're never going to agree here. I went back and played Crysis 2 before writing this: you are right when you say that you don't have to hold the attack button in for too long to super punch, but in the first game as long as you were in strength mode then you could deliver punch after punch until your energy ran out, whereas with Crysis 2 there's that slight delay before each super punch. Plus super punching in Crysis 2 uses up all your energy.

Treblaine:

A game about a nano-suited super-soldier fighting totalitarian soldiers and alien monsters... if the fun is coming from throwing chickens at people then the developers have kind of failed in their tone. The fun in Crysis 2 is actually FROM the scenario they are supposed to be in, not ridiculous shit like throwing chickens at people. That's stuff for the blooper reel. That's more fitting in games like Team Fortress 2, not in a Crysis game. So I didn't miss it.

You can still punch dudes in Crysis 2, what's so special about going two bare fisted? That is just SILLY to ever do that if you have a gun! You can still grab and throw enemies in Crysis 2, it's far easier than in Crysis 1 were you needed strength to do that and without max-armour you got ripped to shreds before you could do anything. You can still super-sprint (that isn't much slower than Crysis 1) and grab enemies, for one the sprint uses suit-energy at a much lower rate it is in fact EASIER to sprint up to a guard, grab them and slam them down in Crysis 2.

Throwing chickens never detracted from the mood of the first game because it wasn't a major gameplay gimmick. You didn't HAVE to throw chickens at koreans, but the option was there. You didn't HAVE to attack a group of soldiers with your bare fists, but the option was there. Then there were little things that were in the original but not the sequel. You never had to use the map in the first game, but the option was there. You never had to customise your reticle's shape and colour but the option was there. You never had to punch down thinly made walls, or shoot the oil tank on a vehicle, or be able to prone, but the option WAS THERE. Crysis wasn't as scripted as other shooters because it didn't need to be (not that you ever said that - I'm just making a point). Most of the cool things that happened, such as punching a car twenty feet into another dude, or destroying a flying helicopter with a thrown (burning) explosive barrel, or even punching down a house, happened because you could, not because you had to. That was one of the biggest things in Crysis - you could stuff around and make your own experience. You can't do that in Crysis 2, mostly because of the change in environment, lack of vehicles and drivable roads, and because of the changes inflicted upon the nanosuit.

Both in Crysis 1 and 2, you can throw enemies regardless of whether you have energy or not, and regardless of what suit mode your in. The main difference is that unless you power throw an enemy in Crysis 1 he will usually get back up. In Crysis 2, you slowly run out of energy if you're holding someone (unlike the first game). If you run out of energy while holding someone in Crysis 1 you throw them automatically which gives you the chance to knock over the enemy in front of you - in Crysis 2 you simply drop them. Not only that but holding someone obstructs your vision far more than in the original game (so that you have trouble seeing where you're throwing). Plus the changed physics means that thrown objects loose trajectory faster so you're always having to aim slightly above your target, which I still have trouble adjusting to.

The sprint in Crysis 2 is faster than the sprint in say Call of Duty, while the sprint in the first game made you faster than a vehicle. Now sure it didn't last long, but that wasn't the point: it was primarily used to escape situations by super sprinting into cover. And if you're out of energy, you can still sprint normally which is only slightly slower than the sprint from Crysis 2. If you run out of energy in Crysis 2, you can't sprint at all - not even normally.

Treblaine:

Crysis 2 you get WAY more suit energy, and it recharges quicker. It's also way easier to sneak up on or flank enemies in a city scape with so many right angle corners compared to the undulating expanses of the jungle.

And so Crysis 1 was far more strategic because of the lesser amount of suit energy and slower recharge. This combined with the four suit options meant that you had to try and plan your attack. Most of the time you could just sneak around a group of enemies (not including the final third of the game which is arguably the worst part). And each base always had multiple entrances whether it be by climbing up the rocks behind it, barging in through the front entrance, or going through the hole in the fence. In Crysis 2 everything is far more constrained and linear, not necessarily for the better.

If Crytek had tried to make the cities more open - yes it would have taken longer to create, but how much of an achievement would it have been? To have the open battlefields of the first game and the detail of the second game COMBINED.

Crysis 2 became far more 'generic' because of the changes: the more linear environments, the lack of strategy and options, as well as the complete change of multiplayer. Don't get me wrong, Crysis 2 is good, and definitely nowhere near as generic as Call of Duty or Medal of Honor (the new one that is). It's a great game on it's own legs, but a terrible sequel, which is the same description I use for Dawn of War 2.

Below are some links to people who share some of my thoughts. They never go into details, rather they give generalisations.

http://www.upcomingtechnology.org/four-reasons-why-crysis-is-better-than-crysis-2/
http://www.digfest.com/2011/03/crysis-1-vs-crysis-2-pc-review-clip/
http://www.notcliche.com/lbw/review-of-crysis-2-maximum-disappointment

These two videos below are of Crysis Warhead, but they show the Crysis gameplay at its finest. Imagine this - in a city environment. It would've been hard, but it could've been done (perhaps if they had a larger budget).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHv7Laj3JiM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y5KiJt9oxg&feature=relmfu

Hopefully Crysis 3 can be a combination of the two games - that way we can both be happy.

Lumber Barber:
Well..
It IS generic! But it's GOOD generic! A very well executed but generic game is miles better than some "unique", "new", "innovative" game that's been executed awfully.

Let me add to your argument by using Deus Ex as an example. Fuck that game's engine. Hasn't aged well at all.

SayHelloToMrBullet:
le snip

I just want to add, I played Crysis 1 just now and the max-speed sprint speed is not super fast, it is almost exactly the same as the sprint in Crysis 2, only the suit energy is consumed faster and you have a neato "vvvVVVVVRRRRRT!" noise.

"In Crysis 2, you slowly run out of energy if you're holding someone"
then
"And so Crysis 1 was far more strategic because of the lesser amount of suit energy and slower recharge"

So when Crysis 1 has negative things it's "more strategic" but when Crysis 2 has other equivalent limitations it is "more constrained".

Crysis 2 looks fantastic with the latest patch that brings out a whole load of the best features of graphics rendering on PC. It really gives the game depth and life, moreso than stereoscopic 3d could though that is also an option.

PS: I hope Crysis 3 doesn't go back to its bad old habits of those crap divisions of modes, but it would only have to be slightly more open than Crysis 2 to be as open as Crysis 1.

Treblaine:

Breadline:
le snip

I'd like to focus in on this quote that seem to underpin the centre of your argument:

"My point is that mixing the powers into each other or automating them defeats the whole idea."

Well that's YOUR idea of the way the game should be.

...Exactly. I'm glad we're making progress. Though many things I've sad have been factually correct, I've so far left it up to you to understand that when I do make a statement on a subjective matter, I'm doing so based on my own opinion.

Treblaine:

But did you stop to consider people liked the abilities themselves not the fact that they were LIMITED by being subdivided into discrete modes - that it didn't help how it wasn't as quick and intuitive to switch between them as they could be.

I assume you used the word limited to try and turn it around on me in a cliched attempt to undermine my argument by using the same one for your side, very clever there. But I've specified time and time again that this is an issue I have with the player's control over the suit being limited. The number of ways and reasons that you the player can consciously and often effectively use it is reduced in Crysis 2.

And I'm guessing you haven't stopped to consider the other perspective either? You know, my perspective, which is similar to the perspective of all those people who thought Crysis 2 was a step back. You say I haven't considered the other side when I have actually agreed with things you've said multiple times, like how the controls are easier. I'm only continuing because you have the arrogance to claim to have "proven" me wrong using flawed, often completely incorrect pseudo-logic, as well as straight up deciding that you have refuted everything I say no matter how much you get factually wrong nor how much you actually failed to correctly and objectively refute anything.

Treblaine:

I actually had a chance to fire up Crysis 1 recently and discovered I accepted quite a lot of nonsense you claimed on bad faith:
-In Crysis 1 you cannot jump AT ALL while sprinting, in any mode! Using suit-shortcuts Double tapping jump while sprinting not only do you not jump, but you don't change modes at all.
-Entering radial menu instantly breaks sprint momentum.
-Combining forward velocity of Max-sprint and vertical thrust of Max-strength jump is impossible the way you claim.
-double tapping jump any other time may activate a super-jump but then you are left in strength mode!
-Speed mode has absolutely no effect on reload speed of any of the weapons
-half the trees I found in the jungle in Crysis 1 were indestructible and in fact only a few select trees were in any way destructible
-I also discovered the pistol has a really low fire-cap (about 300rpm)

Just to make sure I wasn't crazy and accidentally devaluing my argument due to not having played in a while, I tried Crysis 1 out a bit also:

-You absolutely can jump while sprinting in any mode. I am literally sprinting back and forth in an out of speed mood and jumping without letting go of sprint. You also continue sprinting if it's still held down when you land. I don't know if you said this because you thought I wouldn't check or because you legitimately have a technical issue. Could be your keyboard is ghosting.

-Entering the radial menu absolutely does not break sprint momentum. Again, not sure what you're thinking. Not only can you continue sprinting with the radial menu open but you can even stop and start sprinting while it's open. Including in speed mode.

-And what exactly did I claim about combining strength jump with maximum speed? I only remember responding to you to say that you can double tap space while sprinting in speed. Though regardless, I'm testing it now and you do go further, even though for a long jump you'd want to just jump once. The distance you get from speed sprinting and strength jumping is slightly less than the center point between regular sprint with strength jump and a long jump using max speed.

Try it, choose a spot and strength jump while sprinting with and without max speed. Check your footprints or go into devmode to make sure you jumped from the same spot each time. Also, interesting tidbit, normal running (not sprinting) in speed mode is slightly faster than sprinting in the other modes.

-Yes you're left in strength mode when you double tap jump, good job. Is that part of my "nonsense I claimed that you accepted in bad faith"?

-Speed mode absolutely increases reload speed, as well as makes you move faster in every stance, switch weapons faster, throw grenades faster, etc, but the reload speed is negligible for some of the earlier weapons. I'm guessing by "Speed mode has absolutely no effect on reload speed of any of the weapons" you meant the Crysis 1 starting weapons. Increasing the reload speed when in speed mode is even a mod-able value you can see in weapon mods.

-All the tall palm trees are destructible. They can be broken into multiple pieces and picked up/thrown. I'm not sure what your point was though.

-Um... how is the pistol's rate of fire "nonsense that I claimed"?

I have no mods installed, non-Steam version. I don't think it's fully patched, but I'm not sure.

So were you just making things up or is this more of the "proving" me wrong using a vague "it's close enough to me to not really matter" line of reasoning? I noticed you made no effort to respond to pretty much most of my last post except to make the "yeah well that's just your opinion, man" statement.

Wow this thread turned into a nitpicking of why the first game is better than the second. Or vice versa.

Wasn't it about people calling it a generic shooter?

Strange how these things unfold.

Breadline:

Treblaine:

But did you stop to consider people liked the abilities themselves not the fact that they were LIMITED by being subdivided into discrete modes - that it didn't help how it wasn't as quick and intuitive to switch between them as they could be.

I assume you used the word limited to try and turn it around on me in a cliched

Might want to look up the term "Cliched" or what a Cliché actually is.

The number of ways and reasons that you the player can consciously and often effectively use it (control over the suit) is reduced in Crysis 2.

For example? It would be nice to get one.

Treblaine:

I actually had a chance to fire up Crysis 1 recently and discovered I accepted quite a lot of nonsense you claimed on bad faith:
-In Crysis 1 you cannot jump AT ALL while sprinting, in any mode! Using suit-shortcuts Double tapping jump while sprinting not only do you not jump, but you don't change modes at all.
-Entering radial menu instantly breaks sprint momentum.
-Combining forward velocity of Max-sprint and vertical thrust of Max-strength jump is impossible the way you claim.
-double tapping jump any other time may activate a super-jump but then you are left in strength mode!
-Speed mode has absolutely no effect on reload speed of any of the weapons
-half the trees I found in the jungle in Crysis 1 were indestructible and in fact only a few select trees were in any way destructible
-I also discovered the pistol has a really low fire-cap (about 300rpm)

Just to make sure I wasn't crazy and accidentally devaluing my argument due to not having played in a while, I tried Crysis 1 out a bit also:

-You absolutely can jump while sprinting in any mode. I am literally sprinting back and forth in an out of speed mode and jumping without letting go of sprint. You also continue sprinting if it's still held down when you land. I don't know if you said this because you thought I wouldn't check or because you legitimately have a technical issue. Could be your keyboard is ghosting.

-Entering the radial menu absolutely does not break sprint momentum. Again, not sure what you're thinking. Not only can you continue sprinting with the radial menu open but you can even stop and start sprinting while it's open. Including in speed mode.

-And what exactly did I claim about combining strength jump with maximum speed? I only remember responding to you to say that you can double tap space while sprinting in speed. Though regardless, I'm testing it now and you do go further, even though for a long jump you'd want to just jump once. The distance you get from speed sprinting and strength jumping is slightly less than the center point between regular sprint with strength jump and a long jump using max speed.

Try it, choose a spot and strength jump while sprinting with and without max speed. Check your footprints or go into devmode to make sure you jumped from the same spot each time. Also, interesting tidbit, normal running (not sprinting) in speed mode is slightly faster than sprinting in the other modes.

-Yes you're left in strength mode when you double tap jump, good job. Is that part of my "nonsense I claimed that you accepted in bad faith"?

-Speed mode absolutely increases reload speed, as well as makes you move faster in every stance, switch weapons faster, throw grenades faster, etc, but the reload speed is negligible for some of the earlier weapons. I'm guessing by "Speed mode has absolutely no effect on reload speed of any of the weapons" you meant the Crysis 1 starting weapons. Increasing the reload speed when in speed mode is even a mod-able value you can see in weapon mods.

-All the tall palm trees are destructible. They can be broken into multiple pieces and picked up/thrown. I'm not sure what your point was though.

-Um... how is the pistol's rate of fire "nonsense that I claimed"?

I have no mods installed, non-Steam version. I don't think it's fully patched, but I'm not sure.

So were you just making things up or is this more of the "proving" me wrong using a vague "it's close enough to me to not really matter" line of reasoning? I noticed you made no effort to respond to pretty much most of my last post except to make the "yeah well that's just your opinion, man" statement.

OK, Pistol was exactly not any of your claims though I did notice it at the time and is illustrative of how Crysis 1 is quite suckier than Crysis 2 in terms of controls, with such a low firecap and (I might add) huge visual recoil, it makes the pistol worthless which you might realise makes it worthless carrying pistol plus two assault weapons. This all added to my impression that Crysis felt very lame compared to Crysis 2.

-Well I AM holding sprint down and I tap space (jump key), double and triple tap it, hold it down and I cannot jump at all, no suit mode changes either. I try to let go of sprint and jump I have lost forward velocity by the time I jump. Are you using the Special Edition? I hear that has many unique control features that are jealously held back from everyone else. EA ARE dicks in that kind of way.

-Using the Radial menu does break my sprint. I practised for half an hour and I could not switch fast enough.

-You claimed that Controls over the suit were limited in Crysis 2. Yet if you can combine Max-Speed-Sprint AND max-strength jump in Crysis 2 but not in Crysis 1 then that is a huge limitation on Crysis 1.

"And what exactly did I claim about combining strength jump with maximum speed? I only remember responding to you to say that you can double tap space while sprinting in speed."

Earlier: "Double tap sprint to go into max speed, then double tap jump to max jump. Bam. No it isn't as elegant as it could be, but it's no more inelegant than having to hold the jump button down. You also can use the radial menu (which is normally what I do) because you do retain momentum from maximum speed for a short time."

-It's a bad thing to be left in strength mode when you just want to perform one strength mode but want to either not be in Max0Strength mode or in some other discrete mode.

-"Speed mode absolutely increases reload speed"
Sure, in no noticeable way. You're going to need sources to back up your claim. I'll work on filming myself sprinting and tapping jump key to no effect but I don't have a video camera.

-while it's true all the tall thin trees are destructible in Crysis, not all the trees in Crysis 1 are tall palm trees. I have found all the tall thin trees in Crysis 2 are destructible and similar between Crysis 1 and Crysis 2 heavily branching trees are indestructible as well as other complex objects that you might think would be fragile, like fences and benches and crates.

So to bring this a bit more back on topic: I remember being hugely underwhelmed by Crysis 1. I loved all the abilities but it was just plain frustrating to try to actually use them so without those it really did feel very generic, it wasn't very special. But Crysis 2, I found exceptional even though being essentially the exact same game as Crysis 1 but with improved controls.

Treblaine:

-You claimed that Controls over the suit were limited in Crysis 2. Yet if you can combine Max-Speed-Sprint AND max-strength jump in Crysis 2 but not in Crysis 1 then that is a huge limitation on Crysis 1.

Max-speed-sprint to max strength jump in Crysis 2 is like toddling forward like a scared duck for 10 feet before your energy runs out, then stopping and bouncing into the air for 3 seconds. It is pointless

You run at like...running speed, as opposed to running faster than a car.

In Crysis 1 you can do a dolphin dive out of the water by doing maximum speed underwater heading for the surface and catapult yourself onto boats. It's awesome.

endtherapture:

Treblaine:

-You claimed that Controls over the suit were limited in Crysis 2. Yet if you can combine Max-Speed-Sprint AND max-strength jump in Crysis 2 but not in Crysis 1 then that is a huge limitation on Crysis 1.

Max-speed-sprint to max strength jump in Crysis 2 is like toddling forward like a scared duck for 10 feet before your energy runs out, then stopping and bouncing into the air for 3 seconds. It is pointless

You run at like...running speed, as opposed to running faster than a car.

In Crysis 1 you can do a dolphin dive out of the water by doing maximum speed underwater heading for the surface and catapult yourself onto boats. It's awesome.

Whereas Max-speed to Max-jump is all but impossible in Crysis 1. In Crysis 2 you sprint at over 25 miles per hour, for those who claim sprint speed is significantly slower than Crysis 1, I'd like to see some evidence of this and that it isn't just subjective impression from the "VVRRRROOT" noise.

"before your energy runs out"

Seriously? Crysis 2 gives you way more energy for both sprint, cloak and Max-armour as well as recharging quicker.

Crysis 2 is is so intuitive and flexible not to mention POSSIBLE to super-sprint + Super jump for those huge leaps of maximum horizontal and vertical velocity.

Captcha: jump higher

Treblaine:

endtherapture:

Treblaine:

-You claimed that Controls over the suit were limited in Crysis 2. Yet if you can combine Max-Speed-Sprint AND max-strength jump in Crysis 2 but not in Crysis 1 then that is a huge limitation on Crysis 1.

Max-speed-sprint to max strength jump in Crysis 2 is like toddling forward like a scared duck for 10 feet before your energy runs out, then stopping and bouncing into the air for 3 seconds. It is pointless

You run at like...running speed, as opposed to running faster than a car.

In Crysis 1 you can do a dolphin dive out of the water by doing maximum speed underwater heading for the surface and catapult yourself onto boats. It's awesome.

Whereas Max-speed to Max-jump is all but impossible in Crysis 1. In Crysis 2 you sprint at over 25 miles per hour, for those who claim sprint speed is significantly slower than Crysis 1, I'd like to see some evidence of this and that it isn't just subjective impression from the "VVRRRROOT" noise.

"before your energy runs out"

Seriously? Crysis 2 gives you way more energy for both sprint, cloak and Max-armour as well as recharging quicker.

Crysis 2 is is so intuitive and flexible not to mention POSSIBLE to super-sprint + Super jump for those huge leaps of maximum horizontal and vertical velocity.

Captcha: jump higher

Jump in Strength mode in Crysis 1 makes you jump higher. Jump in Strength mode in Crysis 2 also makes you jump higher but it takes longer to activate.

In Speed Mode in Crysis 1 you can run along at like 70 miles per hour for about 5 seconds then tap jump and you go flying another 20 meters or something and it's great, but in Crysis 2 sprint is just a normal FPS slightly faster than running sprint which sucks.

endtherapture:

Jump in Strength mode in Crysis 1 makes you jump higher. Jump in Strength mode in Crysis 2 also makes you jump higher but it takes longer to activate.

In Speed Mode in Crysis 1 you can run along at like 70 miles per hour for about 5 seconds then tap jump and you go flying another 20 meters or something and it's great, but in Crysis 2 sprint is just a normal FPS slightly faster than running sprint which sucks.

Jump height is the same in Crysis 1 and Crysis 2 while Crysis 2 has the added feature of ability to scramble up ledges so you can actually get to greater heights. It also doesn't take any significantly longer time to acticate.

Again, what version of Crysis are you playing?!? I sprint and hammer and hold down the jump-key, I cannot jump at all. I try to lift off on sprint key and tap jump quick enough I COULD NOT do it lifting off enough to retain forward velocity.

In Crysis 2 when sprinting I can jump IMMEDIATELY by tapping jump key, I can super jump while sprinting by just holding down jump key for 0.2 sec.

HUGE exaggeration to say you can Max-Speed sprint for 5 seconds in Crysis 1.

At 1:05, about 2 seconds.

10 seconds of continuous sprint, about 2x further. Way further and while it is a bit slower, it's actually at a manageable speed. And the upgrades increase Crysis 2's sprint speed even more. Also see the demonstration of the Cloak mode, how it actually gives you enough cloak time to do ANYTHING and sprint in cloak without ruining it.

And people say the controls in Crysis 2 are worse. ARE THEY EVEN PLAYING THE SAME GAME!?!?

Treblaine:

For example? It would be nice to get one.

Um, are you serious? Half this thread has been me giving examples. FOR EXAMPLE, everything in speed mode is now automated. Do you remember me saying that?

Treblaine:

-You claimed that Controls over the suit were limited in Crysis 2. Yet if you can combine Max-Speed-Sprint AND max-strength jump in Crysis 2 but not in Crysis 1 then that is a huge limitation on Crysis 1.

...

Earlier: "Double tap sprint to go into max speed, then double tap jump to max jump. Bam. No it isn't as elegant as it could be, but it's no more inelegant than having to hold the jump button down. You also can use the radial menu (which is normally what I do) because you do retain momentum from maximum speed for a short time."

Again, are you serious? I admit, using the radial menu to switch to strength mode and jump during a speed sprint is way harder than I thought, I must have been remembering that wrong. But literally two sentences above the part you bolded, in the same quote, I mention double tapping jump. You're just picking and choosing.

Even though I meticulously laid out how even you could see for yourself, you still claim that you can't strength jump while speed sprinting. It is absolutely, objectively, 100% factually true that you can strength jump while speed sprinting, and you get more distance. And again you demonstrate that you either refuse to acknowledge or just don't understand that I keep saying my point is the player's control is limited.

I never buy collectors/special editions, so no I'm not using that.

I said the player's control over the suit is limited, you said blatantly there there are "no limitations, no compromises". You said you proved me wrong when you only tried to do so by relating points that don't inherently relate. Saying that a different feature or aspect being improved makes up for whatever complaint I have is you compromising. You also said I claimed nonsense when all that "nonsense" was either you being plain incorrect or spouting off unrelated grievances you have with the game.

Breadline:

Treblaine:

For example? It would be nice to get one.

Um, are you serious? Half this thread has been me giving examples. FOR EXAMPLE, everything in speed mode is now automated. Do you remember me saying that?

That was in question of:
"The number of ways and reasons that you the player can consciously and often effectively use it (control over the suit) is reduced in Crysis 2."

So, you allege Reduced:
-conscious use of suit powers, and
-effective use of suit powers

Of which you have yet to give a TRUE example of.

No conscious control is not lost. Nothing will ever happen unless you command it to. You will only sprint if you command it to. And it is far more effective to have one button to activate sprint and to combine with other active modes.

"everything in speed mode is now automated"

Automated:
1.
a. Acting or operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control: an automatic light switch; a budget deficit that triggered automatic spending cuts.
b. Self-regulating: an automatic washing machine.
2.
a. Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: automatic shrinking of the pupils of the eyes in strong light. See Synonyms at spontaneous.
b. Acting or done as if by machine; mechanical: an automatic reply to a familiar question.

The only function of Max-Speed Suit mode is the increased movement and sprint speed where that functionality exists in Crysis 2 as a sprint, that can only be activated by conscious and willing control. No functionality lost. Not automatic, by definition. Of and in both Crysis 1 and 2 reload speed for all the weapons are constant between suit-modes. It's never stated in any official sources (I can find) that that is a variable in Crysis 1, the burden of proof in on your to prove that.

Please explain how it is less effective to have one button activation that doesn't interrupt and is able to combine suit powers? And to be able to move for longer in super sprint and with Cloak-Engaged?

Also, explain how being able to intuitively deliver a super punch/jump by pressing the semantically same button but holding down (for a very short time) rather than just tapping be less efficient? For the overwhelming majority of gamers it will be too distracting and take so long to switch to strength mode it isn't worth it.

Treblaine:

-You claimed that Controls over the suit were limited in Crysis 2. Yet if you can combine Max-Speed-Sprint AND max-strength jump in Crysis 2 but not in Crysis 1 then that is a huge limitation on Crysis 1.

...

Earlier: "Double tap sprint to go into max speed, then double tap jump to max jump. Bam. No it isn't as elegant as it could be, but it's no more inelegant than having to hold the jump button down. You also can use the radial menu (which is normally what I do) because you do retain momentum from maximum speed for a short time."

Again, are you serious? I admit, using the radial menu to switch to strength mode and jump during a speed sprint is way harder than I thought, I must have been remembering that wrong. But literally two sentences above the part you bolded, in the same quote, I mention double tapping jump. You're just picking and choosing.

Even though I meticulously laid out how even you could see for yourself, you still claim that you can't strength jump while speed sprinting. It is absolutely, objectively, 100% factually true that you can strength jump while speed sprinting, and you get more distance. And again you demonstrate that you either refuse to acknowledge or just don't understand that I keep saying my point is the player's control is limited.

I never buy collectors/special editions, so no I'm not using that.

I said the player's control over the suit is limited, you said blatantly there there are "no limitations, no compromises". You said you proved me wrong when you only tried to do so by relating points that don't inherently relate. Saying that a different feature or aspect being improved makes up for whatever complaint I have is you compromising. You also said I claimed nonsense when all that "nonsense" was either you being plain incorrect or spouting off unrelated grievances you have with the game.

What part of this don't you get: When I play Crysis on PC, I CANNOT jump while in sprint! Jump key does nothing!

Have you ACTUALLY tested this or are you just making assumptions? I have sprinted in every mode (including max speed) and tapping or holding the jump key does NOTHING. Explain that. Are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that you can jump while holding down the sprint key? Because I showed this to several of my friends who also play Crysis who noticed the same thing. You've already admitted to misremembering the ability to use the radial menu that you so vociferously objected to my claim of inability to super sprint and super jump in crysis 1:

"You also can use the radial menu (which is normally what I do) because you do retain momentum from maximum speed for a short time."

So when you say this:

"It is absolutely, objectively, 100% factually true that you can strength jump while speed sprinting"

Very well then: Prove it.

You make the claim, you provide the evidence. I have looked for the evidence myself and no where in any speed runs of Crysis 1 can find Max-speed-sprint simultaneously combined with max-strength-jump. I see a lot of either, but apparently none of them combined! And of course my contrary evidence of actually testing it myself in my copy of the game on Steam.

As it stands I CANNOT jump at all while sprinting in Crysis 1, while in Crysis 2 while sprinting I can easily and accurately perform the super jump (the hold-time is no where near as long as you are implying, it is WAY faster than you could use radial menu or double tap space) and even better I can grab onto ledges and pull myself up giving even more vertical movement.

This is not limited.

If I can easily do that in Crysis 2 but not in Crysis 1 that makes the controls of the former far inferior due to their limitations.

"you proved me wrong when you only tried to do so by relating points that don't inherently relate."

It is entirely related to talk about suit controls when the subject in the games suit controls. I have stayed entirely related to Crysis in comparison to its sequel and how lame it is compared to Crysis 2.

There is no compromise in the sense you mean it. I have to be careful with you, as you are so pejorative with neutral terms like compromise. Like how a console port is compromised.

I have shown how all the objections over Crysis 2's controls do not stand up to scrutiny, so what is the reason for the displeasure? I think there was backlash against Crysis 2 not being a PC exclusive that it got panned in ways it never would if the PS3+360 versions never saw the light of day, even if Crysis 2 was EXACTLY the same on PC as it was on release. It would be hailed for it's improvements rather than derided by insinuation as a sellout to console mediocrity. Nope. It excelled over Crysis 1 only it's been pissed on as if these changes in any way dumbed down the game.

All this nonsense about Automation in Crysis 2, all these false claims about the practicality of Crysis 1's controls. Where does it come from?

Treblaine:

No conscious control is not lost. Nothing will ever happen unless you command it to. You will only sprint if you command it to. And it is far more effective to have one button to activate sprint and to combine with other active modes.

"everything in speed mode is now automated"

Automated:
1.
a. Acting or operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control: an automatic light switch; a budget deficit that triggered automatic spending cuts.
b. Self-regulating: an automatic washing machine.
2.
a. Acting or done without volition or conscious control; involuntary: automatic shrinking of the pupils of the eyes in strong light. See Synonyms at spontaneous.
b. Acting or done as if by machine; mechanical: an automatic reply to a familiar question.

The only function of Max-Speed Suit mode is the increased movement and sprint speed where that functionality exists in Crysis 2 as a sprint, that can only be activated by conscious and willing control. No functionality lost. Not automatic, by definition. Of and in both Crysis 1 and 2 reload speed for all the weapons are constant between suit-modes. It's never stated in any official sources (I can find) that that is a variable in Crysis 1, the burden of proof in on your to prove that.

Let's use an example from the definition you posted. "Self-regulating: an automatic washing machine." The washing machine works on its own, but you have to put the clothes in there and start it. Similarly, you consciously decide to reload, but maximum speed works automatically. You cannot decide between reloading normally and reloading with maximum speed, only reload. Maximum speed (which probably doesn't even occur except in sprints in Crysis 2 because there's no indication it's been activated - I'm assuming this for your benefit) only operates automatically, there's no instance where you can just choose it.

In the same way, you can decide to sprint but not whether or not to use maximum speed with that sprint. The game decides for you. Do you get this? The action of sprinting, reloading, whatever is consciously made, but the suit power activates automatically in conjunction with those actions. You make no conscious effort to go into speed mode, you hit sprint and the game puts you in speed mode automatically.

Back to my ultimate attack analogy, would you think one button to automatically kill everyone in your line of sight doesn't limit the player's control? None of it is automatic, right, because the player consciously decides to press the ultimate attack button and it all performs the same function and pointing your mouse and them and clicking. This is using the same reasoning you are when you say max speed isn't automatic when you press sprint.

And increasing movement and sprint speed is not the only function of max speed, at least not in Crysis 1 (increased movement in standing, crouch, prone, faster reload, faster weapon switch, faster punches, faster throws for objects and grenades). But even then, in Crysis 2 it only increases sprint speed (and only during sprint at that), not general movement speed. Look at the video I posted a couple pages back, that guy goes into speed mode a lot and he rarely actually sprints in it. He also jumps while sprinting. Also, the wiki you seem to love says this: "The increased dexterity of Speed Mode also allows the user to prepare heavy weapons and (Depending on the firearm) reload at an increased speed. ...The user can also switch to Strength Mode while sprinting and immediately jump for an even longer distance, since there is a very short period of time in which the two modes can be combined."

Treblaine:

Also, explain how being able to intuitively deliver a super punch/jump by pressing the semantically same button but holding down (for a very short time) rather than just tapping be less efficient? For the overwhelming majority of gamers it will be too distracting and take so long to switch to strength mode it isn't worth it.

So are you trying to argue another vague general statement? Is this a majority wins sort of thing where you've just made up the majority? Double tapping for strength jump or melee happens instantly. If you actually tried it, you'd see that when you tap jump you immediately jump, and tap it again quickly after makes you go higher. You're already jumping by the time you decide to strength jump. It just adds on to your regular jump. You understand that immediate is objectively less amount of time than whatever "very short time" it takes in Crysis 2, right?

Treblaine:

Have you ACTUALLY tested this or are you just making assumptions? I have sprinted in every mode (including max speed) and tapping or holding the jump key does NOTHING. Explain that. Are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that you can jump while holding down the sprint key? Because I showed this to several of my friends who also play Crysis who noticed the same thing. You've already admitted to misremembering the ability to use the radial menu that you so vociferously objected to my claim of inability to super sprint and super jump in crysis 1:

"You also can use the radial menu (which is normally what I do) because you do retain momentum from maximum speed for a short time."

So when you say this:

"It is absolutely, objectively, 100% factually true that you can strength jump while speed sprinting"

Very well then: Prove it.

You make the claim, you provide the evidence. I have looked for the evidence myself and no where in any speed runs of Crysis 1 can find Max-speed-sprint simultaneously combined with max-strength-jump. I see a lot of either, but apparently none of them combined! And of course my contrary evidence of actually testing it myself in my copy of the game on Steam.

It's amazing that in all these speed runs of Crysis you haven't seen anyone jump while sprinting. Or you have and ignored it. Here's a video. There's also jumping while sprinting in there to show you it's definitely a thing. Notice how Nomad's hands are held up in the screen whenever you jump while sprinting.

Treblaine:

I have shown how all the objections over Crysis 2's controls do not stand up to scrutiny, so what is the reason for the displeasure? I think there was backlash against Crysis 2 not being a PC exclusive that it got panned in ways it never would if the PS3+360 versions never saw the light of day, even if Crysis 2 was EXACTLY the same on PC as it was on release. It would be hailed for it's improvements rather than derided by insinuation as a sellout to console mediocrity. Nope. It excelled over Crysis 1 only it's been pissed on as if these changes in any way dumbed down the game.

I have not once brought this up, but you have multiple times for some reason. I've said I don't mind the Crysis series being on consoles. I think Crytek definitely deserves the money and the series deserves exposure.

Breadline:

Let's use an example from the definition you posted. "Self-regulating: an automatic washing machine." The washing machine works on its own, but you have to put the clothes in there and start it. Similarly, you consciously decide to reload, but maximum speed works automatically. You cannot decide between reloading normally and reloading with maximum speed, only reload. Maximum speed (which probably doesn't even occur except in sprints in Crysis 2 because there's no indication it's been activated - I'm assuming this for your benefit) only operates automatically, there's no instance where you can just choose it.

In the same way, you can decide to sprint but not whether or not to use maximum speed with that sprint. The game decides for you. Do you get this? The action of sprinting, reloading, whatever is consciously made, but the suit power activates automatically in conjunction with those actions. You make no conscious effort to go into speed mode, you hit sprint and the game puts you in speed mode automatically.

Back to my ultimate attack analogy, would you think one button to automatically kill everyone in your line of sight doesn't limit the player's control? None of it is automatic, right, because the player consciously decides to press the ultimate attack button and it all performs the same function and pointing your mouse and them and clicking. This is using the same reasoning you are when you say max speed isn't automatic when you press sprint.

And increasing movement and sprint speed is not the only function of max speed, at least not in Crysis 1 (increased movement in standing, crouch, prone, faster reload, faster weapon switch, faster punches, faster throws for objects and grenades). But even then, in Crysis 2 it only increases sprint speed (and only during sprint at that), not general movement speed. Look at the video I posted a couple pages back, that guy goes into speed mode a lot and he rarely actually sprints in it. He also jumps while sprinting. Also, the wiki you seem to love says this: "The increased dexterity of Speed Mode also allows the user to prepare heavy weapons and (Depending on the firearm) reload at an increased speed. ...The user can also switch to Strength Mode while sprinting and immediately jump for an even longer distance, since there is a very short period of time in which the two modes can be combined."

"And increasing movement and sprint speed is not the only function of max speed"

Bold claim. Contradicts everything I find in my game. So, can you prove this? Please show which weapons reload quicker in Maximum-Speed mode of Crysis 1? Or any other speed increased in Max-speed mode?

(doesn't matter if you have a version with completely different functionality from mine)

"would you think one button to automatically kill everyone in your line of sight doesn't limit the player's control?"

Nope. That's not what I am arguing for. That is ridiculous overkill going beyond any of the abilities in Crysis 1 or Crysis 2. That is a straw-man argument. This is none of the same reasoning as you have inserted outrageous new idea of an ability that insta kills everyone. Sprint is actually slower in Crysis 2 but takes you further. My argument has been for the same abilities being slightly more or less powerful but ultimately the same being EASIER to actually use, so not all of them divided into 4 discrete modes. That would make for better controls without any automation.

You are setting a fallacious baseline by saying "speed mode reload is automatically applied in Crysis 2" when it could be that reload speed IS the reload speed and it's a fallacy to associate it with any particular suit-mode. It is neither limited nor automated.

Please, I explain what is going on as I am running the Steam version of Crysis, do you have the Non Steam version?!?!?

Treblaine:

Also, explain how being able to intuitively deliver a super punch/jump by pressing the semantically same button but holding down (for a very short time) rather than just tapping be less efficient? For the overwhelming majority of gamers it will be too distracting and take so long to switch to strength mode it isn't worth it.

So are you trying to argue another vague general statement? Is this a majority wins sort of thing where you've just made up the majority? Double tapping for strength jump or melee happens instantly. If you actually tried it, you'd see that when you tap jump you immediately jump, and tap it again quickly after makes you go higher. You're already jumping by the time you decide to strength jump. It just adds on to your regular jump. You understand that immediate is objectively less amount of time than whatever "very short time" it takes in Crysis 2, right?

So are you claiming the majority of gamers found Crysis 1 controls easy to use and utilise all the abilities of each mode? Everyone I ask other than you found Crysis 1 controls a right pain and you yourself admit that Max-speed-Sprint + Max-strength-jump is hard when it should be easy. PS: they all ran the steam version.

It takes about 0.2 seconds to super-punch someone in Crysis 2. But in Crysis 1 you have to double tap jump to jump then super jump up in the air (disabling your armour mode that you need to not get killed by a single burst of fire) then aim and close to melee on them. Or use the radial menu temporarily disabling your ability to aim and use of one of your fingers and easily ending up in the wrong mode your your mouse shifting so far off centre you have to inconveniently re-centre it and further delay.

It's amazing that in all these speed runs of Crysis you haven't seen anyone jump while sprinting. Or you have and ignored it. Here's a video. There's also jumping while sprinting in there to show you it's definitely a thing. Notice how Nomad's hands are held up in the screen whenever you jump while sprinting.

I take it that is Your video on Your account? As it would be quite improbable finding precisely the video you need within a few hours of it being posted. So you can clarify that when jumping-while-sprinting at no point did you lift your finger off the sprint key?

If that is the case then we have nothing more to argue, as we are clearly playing COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VERSIONS of the same game!

While I sprint in MY version of Crysis 1 the jump key DOES NOTHING:
-I cannot jump
-I cannot switch to Max-strength
-I cannot use any of suit shortcuts while sprinting yet can as soon as I let off sprint key (I double and triple checked I had suit-shortcuts activated)
-This is same for all suit modes

I'm not lying to you and I'm not angry at you, I am angry at EA for releasing a game that are apparently identical but clearly some versions are (edit) UTTERLY SIGNIFICANTLY HOBBLED in their controls capability.

Not that I'd prefer that layout to Crysis 2, IMO: it's easier to hold jump key than to double-tap it to perform super jump and that not negating nay other active modes like Cloak or Armour. Holding a key is easier than double-tapping.

Treblaine:

I have shown how all the objections over Crysis 2's controls do not stand up to scrutiny, so what is the reason for the displeasure? I think there was backlash against Crysis 2 not being a PC exclusive that it got panned in ways it never would if the PS3+360 versions never saw the light of day, even if Crysis 2 was EXACTLY the same on PC as it was on release. It would be hailed for it's improvements rather than derided by insinuation as a sellout to console mediocrity. Nope. It excelled over Crysis 1 only it's been pissed on as if these changes in any way dumbed down the game.

I have not once brought this up, but you have multiple times for some reason. I've said I don't mind the Crysis series being on consoles. I think Crytek definitely deserves the money and the series deserves exposure.

Well otherwise, I don't get your objections to the controls. I've heard others say "they're only like that for console gamepad" (not you) and it's a common theme to associate consolization with games being more limited and more automated. It's just a common theme.

I suppose it purely is a matter of preference whether its easier to double-tap or hold jump to perform super jump. But you seem to be taking your preference as indicative of terrible compromise. And I'm sorry, your arguments don't get over how more enjoyable it is to intuitively and dynamically use all these abilities. I rarely used sprint in Crysis 1 because the time needed to enter that mode would be better spent dodging or fighting back. When You or I move around none of us have to use that amount of mental distraction to start moving at our top speed to avoid danger.

Treblaine:

"And increasing movement and sprint speed is not the only function of max speed"

Bold claim. Contradicts everything I find in my game. So, can you prove this? Please show which weapons reload quicker in Maximum-Speed mode of Crysis 1? Or any other speed increased in Max-speed mode?

(doesn't matter if you have a version with completely different functionality from mine)

Even though you crossed it out, you conveniently don't acknowledge any of the other functions I mentioned. I doubt your game is so broken that you're unable to test switching weapons in speed mode, or throwing grenades, or moving while standing, crouching, and prone. I don't care if you think every unofficial source is unanimously lying about faster reload speeds (especially since your version apparently can't be trusted) because it still has other functions you can easily see right now.

Treblaine:

You are setting a fallacious baseline by saying "speed mode reload is automatically applied in Crysis 2" when it could be that reload speed IS the reload speed and it's a fallacy to associate it with any particular suit-mode. It is neither limited nor automated.

As I specifically said, I was assuming that for your benefit only. For all I can tell, speed mode only activates (automatically) when you hit sprint in Crysis 2. I agree that the reload speed is only that, which only strengthens my argument because in Crysis 1 you had the option to augment that situation, as well as many others. This was my original point before you suggested that the nanosuit automatically increased reload speed. As such, speed mode is stripped and limited compared to it's Crysis 1 version, I have less options to work with, less reasons to be in speed mode. Hell, I can't even be in speed mode without sprinting.

Treblaine:

Please, I explain what is going on as I am running the Steam version of Crysis, do you have the Non Steam version?!?!?

Yes I have the non Steam version, as I've said before.

Treblaine:

So are you claiming the majority of gamers found Crysis 1 controls easy to use and utilise all the abilities of each mode? Everyone I ask other than you found Crysis 1 controls a right pain and you yourself admit that Max-speed-Sprint + Max-strength-jump is hard when it should be easy. PS: they all ran the steam version.

You said "For the overwhelming majority of gamers", I made no attempt to generalize an entire group as falling under my own perspective. You realize this right? I also only said speed sprinting and strength jumping was hard with the radial menu, it's easy with shortcuts as demonstrated. I don't care how many people found the controls easy or hard to use, this is my issue with the player's control of the nanosuit being limited. I don't care that "everyone" you talked to agrees. Especially when your friend incorrectly believes something like "you can only strength jump while speed sprinting with a macro". And besides, "everyone" I talk to agrees with me, good objective argument, right?

This is also what I meant by compromise. I prove to you that speed sprint and strength jump is possible (literally all you do is double tap space while speed sprinting, you don't even have to take your hand off shift), and your response is "yeah ok but it's too hard!" You're compromising, saying though my point may be technically valid, you think it isn't worth the difficulty.

Treblaine:

It takes about 0.2 seconds to super-punch someone in Crysis 2. But in Crysis 1 you have to double tap jump to jump then super jump up in the air (disabling your armour mode that you need to not get killed by a single burst of fire) then aim and close to melee on them. Or use the radial menu temporarily disabling your ability to aim and use of one of your fingers and easily ending up in the wrong mode your your mouse shifting so far off centre you have to inconveniently re-centre it and further delay.

What the hell? Are you just trying to complicate the situation to get around the fact that strength jump happens immediately in Crysis 1? Fine that it's complicated for you, but it isn't for me. Also, on that first jump in the video I used the radial menu to switch back to armor, and you barely even see it it's done so fast (I'd say about 0.1 seconds if I'm also allowed to make up exaggerated estimations). And that's after not playing Crysis 1 for years and not having my own more comfortable keybindings set.

I don't even get why you seem to compare super punching in Crysis 2 to super jumping in Crysis 1. What that paragraph should have said is: "It takes about 0.2 seconds to super-punch someone in Crysis 2. But in Crysis 1 it happens instantly."

Treblaine:

I take it that is Your video on Your account? As it would be quite improbable finding precisely the video you need within a few hours of it being posted. So you can clarify that when jumping-while-sprinting at no point did you lift your finger off the sprint key?

That's why I specifically mentioned how the character holds his hands up, because that's an animation that only plays if you jump while sprinting. Hence why normal jumping and jumping while sprinting are compared in the video, to show the animation that proves I was sprinting in the process. He also goes further.

Treblaine:

If that is the case then we have nothing more to argue, as we are clearly playing COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VERSIONS of the same game!

While I sprint in MY version of Crysis 1 the jump key DOES NOTHING:
-I cannot jump
-I cannot switch to Max-strength
-I cannot use any of suit shortcuts while sprinting yet can as soon as I let off sprint key (I double and triple checked I had suit-shortcuts activated)
-This is same for all suit modes

I'm not lying to you and I'm not angry at you, I am angry at EA for releasing a game that are apparently identical but clearly some versions are (edit) UTTERLY SIGNIFICANTLY HOBBLED in their controls capability.

Then this whole thing is ridiculous. You clearly have a very broken game or ghosting keyboard or something. As such, all your "proving" me wrong, all the "nonsense" I claimed, all the "objections that don't hold up to scrutiny", are invalidated. Hell for all you know, even the pistol fires faster in the real game. You can certainly still say you liked Crysis 2 better because the controls were easier, and I'll respect that, but you cannot honestly expect to have any validity whatsoever when "proving" your previous points.

And no, it isn't just a different version. Crysis 1 has worked this way since the pre-release demo (download it if you don't believe me) and no amount of searching has led me to anyone claiming similar problems, even unofficially. If the fully updated Steam version truly removed basic and vital movement controls from the game, you'd think someone else might have noticed. I guess the burden is on you now to provide some sort of patch notes, workaround, or basic acknowledgement that the Steam version blatantly removed something so important.

I may as well claim that my Crysis 2 version doesn't work either and add that it "doesn't matter if you have a version with completely different functionality from mine".

Treblaine:

When You or I move around none of us have to use that amount of mental distraction to start moving at our top speed to avoid danger.

...Because you and I don't move around in a nanosuit that's designed to provide different tactical options for different circumstances that take our capabilities beyond their normal limits and add an extra layer of strategy to dangerous situations specifically due to that interactivity.

Breadline:
le snip

I really have yet to see any evidence that ANYTHING is quicker in Crysis 1's speed mode other than running and sprint speed. Which leaves faster movement speed which might as well just be a single-button for super sprint. There is no Speed 'mode' in crysis 2, the single ability of speed mode now is a stand alone ability to use on demand.

I don't see the point obsessing over a speed mode but rather that the speed ability is there, though at a slower speed it takes you further.

Double tapping space while Max-Speed-sprinting to super-jump would be a pretty good way to work but:
-that doesn't actually work for me
-Even if it did, it's quicker to hold down space key than I can double-tap the jump-key
-even if I could double tap as quick as the hold time, it still disables any active mode like Max-Armour or Cloak that takes mental load to remember to switch back.

Super jump makes way more sense as a discrete ability than as a component of a discrete mode.

You can super punch instantly in Crysis 1 but not at any time in any mode, only in Strength Mode, which takes time to switch to and to switch back from. At ANY TIME you can super punch in Crysis 2 with minimum mental load or occupation of fingers/time. Mental load is a major issue in ergonomics, it says nothing of the individual's intellect as attention of other important factors (special awareness, forward thinking) must be Compromised to focus on something else like perform multi stage controls that interrupt aiming and use of multiple fingers in sequence.

This Crysis 1 super jump (assuming pressing forward):
activate Radial menu -> Mouse gesture to Max-speed -> release radial menu -> hold sprint -> activate Radial menu just at apex for jump -> Mouse gesture to strength mode -> release radial menu -> tap jump QUICK ENOUGH BEFORE MOMENTUM IS LOST -> (in mid air) activate radial menu -> gesture back to armour/cloak mode -> release radial menu -> release sprint

That is a 12 stage combo that needs absolutely perfect timing with EXTREMELY fast speed and not loosing mouse centring too much or being slightly off where you'd accidentally flip your perspective 90 degrees. There is a huge likelihood you will get it slightly wrong and go ploughing right into the minefield you were trying to jump over or fleeing over a cliff.

Or the Crysis 1 way with suit shortcuts to perform super jump while moving forward:
-double tap sprint
-hold sprint
-double tap jump at apex
-double tap S (default) for armour mode
-Release sprint

5 stages, 8 discrete inputs. Why is such a simple move like a fighting game finishing-move combo?

Compared to Crysis 2:
-tap sprint key to initiate sprint
-Hold jump key at apex to mega-jump

That's all you need to do to perform the super jump while retaining the mode you were in before, cloak or armour. Doesn't that seem more fitting for what should be such a simple move?

"I may as well claim that my Crysis 2 version doesn't work either."

Is that the actual case for you?

I am not making a false claim to support my argument, and I don't see how I can be mistaken. My friends (who also have the steam version) corroborate what I found but didn't particularly test it.

Can't you see this is a huge problem for Crysis 1 if apparently all the Steam versions are unreasonably hard to perform moves. I will be documenting this and investigating it further. But note, I still would prefer Crysis 2 controls to the controls of Crysis 1 even if the suit shortcuts worked properly

I wonder when people will realise that "Generic" just means "Of the genre"?

Completely useless criticism, never take any notice of anyone who calls anything "generic" as an attempted insult.

Treblaine:

Breadline:
le snip

I really have yet to see any evidence that ANYTHING is quicker in Crysis 1's speed mode other than running and sprint speed. Which leaves faster movement speed which might as well just be a single-button for super sprint. There is no Speed 'mode' in crysis 2, the single ability of speed mode now is a stand alone ability to use on demand.

I don't see the point obsessing over a speed mode but rather that the speed ability is there, though at a slower speed it takes you further.

Double tapping space while Max-Speed-sprinting to super-jump would be a pretty good way to work but:
-that doesn't actually work for me
-Even if it did, it's quicker to hold down space key than I can double-tap the jump-key
-even if I could double tap as quick as the hold time, it still disables any active mode like Max-Armour or Cloak that takes mental load to remember to switch back.

Super jump makes way more sense as a discrete ability than as a component of a discrete mode.

You can super punch instantly in Crysis 1 but not at any time in any mode, only in Strength Mode, which takes time to switch to and to switch back from. At ANY TIME you can super punch in Crysis 2 with minimum mental load or occupation of fingers/time. Mental load is a major issue in ergonomics, it says nothing of the individual's intellect as attention of other important factors (special awareness, forward thinking) must be Compromised to focus on something else like perform multi stage controls that interrupt aiming and use of multiple fingers in sequence.

This Crysis 1 super jump (assuming pressing forward):
activate Radial menu -> Mouse gesture to Max-speed -> release radial menu -> hold sprint -> activate Radial menu just at apex for jump -> Mouse gesture to strength mode -> release radial menu -> tap jump QUICK ENOUGH BEFORE MOMENTUM IS LOST -> (in mid air) activate radial menu -> gesture back to armour/cloak mode -> release radial menu -> release sprint

That is a 12 stage combo that needs absolutely perfect timing with EXTREMELY fast speed and not loosing mouse centring too much or being slightly off where you'd accidentally flip your perspective 90 degrees. There is a huge likelihood you will get it slightly wrong and go ploughing right into the minefield you were trying to jump over or fleeing over a cliff.

Or the Crysis 1 way with suit shortcuts to perform super jump while moving forward:
-double tap sprint
-hold sprint
-double tap jump at apex
-double tap S (default) for armour mode
-Release sprint

5 stages, 8 discrete inputs. Why is such a simple move like a fighting game finishing-move combo?

Compared to Crysis 2:
-tap sprint key to initiate sprint
-Hold jump key at apex to mega-jump

That's all you need to do to perform the super jump while retaining the mode you were in before, cloak or armour. Doesn't that seem more fitting for what should be such a simple move?

"I may as well claim that my Crysis 2 version doesn't work either."

Is that the actual case for you?

I am not making a false claim to support my argument, and I don't see how I can be mistaken. My friends (who also have the steam version) corroborate what I found but didn't particularly test it.

Can't you see this is a huge problem for Crysis 1 if apparently all the Steam versions are unreasonably hard to perform moves. I will be documenting this and investigating it further. But note, I still would prefer Crysis 2 controls to the controls of Crysis 1 even if the suit shortcuts worked properly

Man, I think you're just bad at the game, everyone else can do it fine

endtherapture:

Man, I think you're just bad at the game, everyone else can do it fine

You really think I am incapable of holding shift, pressing space and determining if my character has jumped or not? There is nothing to screw up, in MY install of Crysis it just does, not, work.

I'm not saying I'll never be able to perform the 12-step combo for the super jump, I'm just doing a COMPARATIVE examination to show in Relative terms how much better Crysis 2's controls are vs Crysis 1.

Can you seriously perform that jump? Consistently? Without any macros? What sort of keyboard layout do you have? Can you do that while distracted by dodging incoming fire and navigating a complex environment?

Treblaine:
snip

I've said so many times that the controls for Crysis could be better and in fact that the controls for Crysis 2 are easier, but that in no way opposes my argument. You keep using "the controls are easier" as a way of combating "the player's control of the suit has been limited" and it's clear you aren't gonna get that such an argument doesn't work.

I think I'm just gonna have to agree with endtherapture here. If you honestly see something simple like speed sprinting and strength jumping as a ridiculous twelve step process (in which you again desperately use the longest sounding method instead of just the shortcuts) with a significant "mental load" then I suppose that's the end of it.

A couple more 100% true facts:
-You can strength melee and strength jump instantly from any mode, just double tap their respective buttons.
-I possess the apparently EXTREME mental dexterity necessary to double tap a button faster than it's required to be held in Crysis 2.
-Speed mode in Crysis 1 does everything I already mentioned, in Crysis 2 it is only a glorified sprint.

It's also funny that you refuse to believe something I say without solid proof (and even after proof is given) when any search will provide multiple sources backing me up, yet when your game is shown to be incredibly incomplete suddenly "all the Steam versions" are like that despite neither of us being able to find any documentation of such a glaring mistake.

Breadline:

Treblaine:
snip

I've said so many times that the controls for Crysis could be better and in fact that the controls for Crysis 2 are easier, but that in no way opposes my argument. You keep using "the controls are easier" as a way of combating "the player's control of the suit has been limited" and it's clear you aren't gonna get that such an argument doesn't work.

I think I'm just gonna have to agree with endtherapture here. If you honestly see something simple like speed sprinting and strength jumping as a ridiculous twelve step process (in which you again desperately use the longest sounding method instead of just the shortcuts) with a significant "mental load" then I suppose that's the end of it.

A couple more 100% true facts:
-You can strength melee and strength jump instantly from any mode, just double tap their respective buttons.
-I possess the apparently EXTREME mental dexterity necessary to double tap a button faster than it's required to be held in Crysis 2.
-Speed mode in Crysis 1 does everything I already mentioned, in Crysis 2 it is only a glorified sprint.

It's also funny that you refuse to believe something I say without solid proof (and even after proof is given) when any search will provide multiple sources backing me up, yet when your game is shown to be incredibly incomplete suddenly "all the Steam versions" are like that despite neither of us being able to find any documentation of such a glaring mistake.

Yeah, but I don't buy your argument that the suit has even been limited.

What I've been trying to say is things like your claim that super-jump and super-punch are always instantaneous glosses over how that is only instantaneous within a discrete suit mode, the time it takes to switch to Max-Strength is slower or on par with holding respective melee or jump keys for 0.2 sec.

The only tangible limitation is slower sprint speed though it does take you much further. Whether this is an actual limitation or a practical tweak for how Crysis 1's speed-sprint was just too fast and over too soon.

"a ridiculous twelve step process (in which you again desperately use the longest sounding method instead of just the shortcuts)"

I told you already, in MY GAME the shortcuts (like double-tapping jump) do not work while I am sprinting. Even considering them working, Crysis 2's shortcuts are more straightforward. And you are right, it is ridiculous that it is a 12 step process to perform what should be a simple combination of abilities. It's not the longest sounding method, I put it as brief as possible to list every critical move.

Nothing desperate about it, to spite your hollow insinuation. It is emphatic.

It doesn't seem I have emphasised this enough, there are serious problems with a radial wheel, for how to get a positive direction you need a fairly large magnitude input, this take your mouse off centre and either means continuing along mouse mat in awkward position or cost time re-centring. And of course, you need perfect timing or TAKE YOUR TIME, to not make the gesture till the radial wheel is activated or else your view flies off to the right or left or staring up at the sky. It's disorienting and time wasting. The radial menu is a woeful ergonomic design design and bullshit I hear on forums of "Suck it up and deal with it, too much of a noob to handle the radial menu" is an excuse I shouldn't have to hear for a game I spent VAST sums of money upgrading my rig in order to play it with good performance.

And the suit-shortcuts clearly don't work the same for everyone in consistently the same way.

As to your 100% assertions:
-double tap is not instant and of course switches off another active mode leaving you having to switch back.
-Considering how short the hold time is on Crysis 2, you'd struggle to double tap as quick and of course is more complex.
-please provide proof that anything over than movement/sprint is faster in Speed mode.

OK, I googled it, so here are the the results are in any way relevant to "crysis 1 speed mode reload-speed".

http://crysis.wikia.com/wiki/CryNet_Nanosuit = no mention of speed mode increasing stance-change speed or reload speed. Only movement speed.

http://www.incrysis.com/wiki/index.php/Nanosuit = again, nothing

http://cdn.steampowered.com/Manuals/17330/manual_english.pdf?t=1297293398 = nothing about this in the game manual either

Other than that, all I can find are a few unsubstantiated claims made by anonymous people on forums where no one admits to any active testing, it seems they are just making subjective assumptions. If you have actual sources, please provide. I've never seen this demonstrated anywhere! It is entirely possible people are switching to speed mode and imagining it's going 20% faster. How much faster are you claiming? Like CoD's slight-of-hand half the reload time?

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