Why do people say Crysis 1 is a "generic shooter" ?

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Treblaine:

Breadline:
[quote="Treblaine" post="9.357998.14208396"]snip

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Have you got the game fully patched? I'm playing the Special Edition of the game, on my laptop and everything works fine.

But anyway you can't argue maximum speed is pathetic in Crysis 2 compared to Crysis 1.

Treblaine:

What I've been trying to say is things like your claim that super-jump and super-punch are always instantaneous glosses over how that is only instantaneous within a discrete suit mode, the time it takes to switch to Max-Strength is slower or on par with holding respective melee or jump keys for 0.2 sec.

I'm gonna put this in bold abecause clearly it hasn't gotten across: double tapping a button makes the power happen instantly. Suit powers do not need to load or anything, the switch happens immediately and instantly affect you. And as I explained before, the switch happens after you already start swinging/jumping. It literally happens as quickly as pressing one button because the action starts when the button is hit once. Pressing the button a second time soon after effectively retcons the action so that your punch already in progress is now considered a super punch, and your jump is now a super jump. How did that not make sense the last time I explained it?

Treblaine:

The only tangible limitation is slower sprint speed though it does take you much further. Whether this is an actual limitation or a practical tweak for how Crysis 1's speed-sprint was just too fast and over too soon.

If we only compare sprint speeds, then I don't consider Crysis 2's sprint limited in terms of the player's control of it when only compared to Crysis 1's speed sprint, it's simply different.

Treblaine:

And the suit-shortcuts clearly don't work the same for everyone in consistently the same way.

They clearly don't work for you and only you. Nobody else has this problem. And no, don't bring up "all the friends you talked to" because you know that argument won't work for you any more than it would work for me.

Treblaine:

-please provide proof that anything over than movement/sprint is faster in Speed mode.

You realize that even if I don't prove anything else that "movement/sprint" is still more than Crysis 2's speed mode, which is only sprint. Just movement/sprint objectively satisfies the requirements for the player's options Crysis 2 being limited compared to the Crysis 1. "Movement/sprint" is two things, "sprint" is one thing. One is less than two. In Crysis 2, you do not have the option to move at increased speeds when standing, crouching and prone (remember prone?), speeds that equal sprinting in other modes. You don't have that option in Crysis 2, do you? You lack a tactical option, you lack a function of the suit that was present in the first game and added an extra layer of depth to the action.

With less of these options available, you have less strain on one's "mental load" and a lower ceiling of skill. Those who have the Mensa-level mental capacity required to tap two buttons quickly are given the chance to excel beyond those who don't (and Koreans) because the options are available, no matter how difficult.

Though if you want more proof you can watch the video I posted on page 2 (seriously, go watch it) and see how maximum speed affects him. Also note how quickly and efficiently he uses the radial menu. That guy must be a savant, right? To take on such a mental load, it's insane!

Treblaine:

http://crysis.wikia.com/wiki/CryNet_Nanosuit = no mention of speed mode increasing stance-change speed or reload speed. Only movement speed.

You really are just ignoring what I'm saying aren't you? I literally quoted that page a few posts above: "The increased dexterity of Speed Mode also allows the user to prepare heavy weapons and (Depending on the firearm) reload at an increased speed."

You have no authority on this because you obviously haven't played the real game. You can't seriously type this stuff and think "yeah it's totally valid to make claims based on incorrect material" can you? You are citing a broken system unique to you. It's like a blind man trying to disprove color.

And your constant attempts to argue against control of the suit being limited by virtue of easier controls is ridiculous. Saying it's hard to do does not change the facts. Do you argue that the number 1 isn't less than 2 because it's easier to count to 1?

EDIT: I just loaded up Crysis 2 because this thread gave me an urge to play it again. Super jump actually takes longer than I was imagining, it's even easy to use the radial menu to super jump faster in Crysis 1. And super punch is even worse, it takes a whole second to charge up.

Breadline:

I'm gonna put this in bold abecause clearly it hasn't gotten across: double tapping a button makes the power happen instantly. Suit powers do not need to load or anything, the switch happens immediately and instantly affect you. And as I explained before, the switch happens after you already start swinging/jumping. It literally happens as quickly as pressing one button because the action starts when the button is hit once. Pressing the button a second time soon after effectively retcons the action so that your punch already in progress is now considered a super punch, and your jump is now a super jump. How did that not make sense the last time I explained it?

Same with Crysis 2 only holding down the button instead of double-tapping. But it's not instantaneous and neither is it in Crysis 1. Instantaneous means precisely that. Except it has the advantage of no other suit mode being interrupted.

In most games there is a deliberate lag time between pressing the jump key and actually jumping, on the logic your character would have to bend their knees to then forcefully straighten then legs to jump. But after pressing the jump key and keeping it held down so by the time the knees are bent and jump key still held down the legs are extended with super-strength, for super jump. So in terms of actual speed-to-jump it's indistinguishably the same time.

Treblaine:

And the suit-shortcuts clearly don't work the same for everyone in consistently the same way.

They clearly don't work for you and only you. Nobody else has this problem. And no, don't bring up "all the friends you talked to" because you know that argument won't work for you any more than it would work for me.

That's rather spurious logic, If my version doesn't work it's unlikely my very particular install has a very unique bug with no other errors in graphics rendering nor physics. Have you asked ANYONE else who has the Steam version? And what I say stands true, the use of suit controls do not work the same very everyone.

Treblaine:

-please provide proof that anything over than movement/sprint is faster in Speed mode.

You realize that even if I don't prove anything else that "movement/sprint" is still more than Crysis 2's speed mode, which is only sprint. Just movement/sprint objectively satisfies the requirements for the player's options Crysis 2 being limited compared to the Crysis 1. "Movement/sprint" is two things, "sprint" is one thing. One is less than two. In Crysis 2, you do not have the option to move at increased speeds when standing, crouching and prone (remember prone?), speeds that equal sprinting in other modes. You don't have that option in Crysis 2, do you? You lack a tactical option, you lack a function of the suit that was present in the first game and added an extra layer of depth to the action.

With less of these options available, you have less strain on one's "mental load" and a lower ceiling of skill. Those who have the Mensa-level mental capacity required to tap two buttons quickly are given the chance to excel beyond those who don't (and Koreans) because the options are available, no matter how difficult.

Though if you want more proof you can watch the video I posted on page 2 (seriously, go watch it) and see how maximum speed affects him. Also note how quickly and efficiently he uses the radial menu. That guy must be a savant, right? To take on such a mental load, it's insane!

You're twisting my argument to say that removing anything makes it easier to follow. No! That's not my argument, that's a straw man argument! My argument has consistently been that all the suit ABILITIES are still there but the controls in Crysis 2 are better for how you can more Directly Access the abilities and in Combination without Contradiction.

Stop and THINK for a second, there are reasons other than dumbing down to not include Prone. CoD has prone and doesn't confound the console-kiddies, maybe the developers of Crysis 2 just didn't want their players doing "drop-shotting" as combined with armour mode they'd be way too overpowered. Anyway, Half Life 2, Left 4 Dead, Portal, Halo, FEAR and loads of other FPS games don't have any prone, there might be a reason for that other than wanting to dumb down. It's not any part of mental load whether there is or is not a prone function. It is a mental load having to perform a 12 step combo to perform a simple super jump. And how double-tap-jump while sprinting does NOT work for everyone.

And speed mode while crouched in Crysis 1 is hardly faster at all, it was still really slow. I rarely travelled anywhere in crouch as the game controls were so limited I'd have to hold down the crouch button and to sprint I'd have to contort my pinkie to hold down crouch and sprint at the same time! Thank god for the toggle-crouch function in crysis 2.

As for moving fast while unseen, Crysis 2 has that tactical option covered. You can super-sprint while your Cloak is engaged. That is a tactical option you DO NOT HAVE in Crysis 1.

You can excel just as well on Crysis 2 controls, you just have to stop getting freaking out about every little thing that is different.

Treblaine:

http://crysis.wikia.com/wiki/CryNet_Nanosuit = no mention of speed mode increasing stance-change speed or reload speed. Only movement speed.

You really are just ignoring what I'm saying aren't you? I literally quoted that page a few posts above: "The increased dexterity of Speed Mode also allows the user to prepare heavy weapons and (Depending on the firearm) reload at an increased speed."

You have no authority on this because you obviously haven't played the real game. You can't seriously type this stuff and think "yeah it's totally valid to make claims based on incorrect material" can you? You are citing a broken system unique to you. It's like a blind man trying to disprove color.

And your constant attempts to argue against control of the suit being limited by virtue of easier controls is ridiculous. Saying it's hard to do does not change the facts. Do you argue that the number 1 isn't less than 2 because it's easier to count to 1?

That doesn't say ALL weapons reload faster in speed mode. Just some weapons and it doesn't say by how much. Should many really care about 20% faster reload speed considering I'd have to sacrifice the protection of Cloak or Armour mode?

"argue against control of the suit being limited by virtue of easier controls is ridiculous."

So it's ridiculous that something can be easier without being limited? There is no case in any design interface where things are needlessly complicated and poorly designed? The fact IS that it is hard!

Treblaine:

Same with Crysis 2 only holding down the button instead of double-tapping. But it's not instantaneous and neither is it in Crysis 1. Instantaneous means precisely that. Except it has the advantage of no other suit mode being interrupted.

...How are you not getting this? In Crysis 1, when I hit jump I can immediately super jump into the air without waiting, at the same speed it takes to press one button, in any suit mode. I've twice explained how this works. In Crysis 2 I have to wait, no matter what. Like I said in my edit, I loaded up Crysis 2 and it's even more blatant than I thought, especially with the strength punch.

Treblaine:

That's rather spurious logic, If my version doesn't work it's unlikely my very particular install has a very unique bug with no other errors in graphics rendering nor physics. Have you asked ANYONE else who has the Steam version? And what I say stands true, the use of suit controls do not work the same very everyone.

Yes it would be unlikely that such a specifically incomplete game would affect only you, which is why such a huge issue would have been brought up by someone somewhere sometime. And yet that never seems to have happened. I can't find anyone in existence with similar issues. For all we know it's a simple ghosting issue.

And one of my roommate has Crysis 1 and Warhead on Steam, and of course the games work normally.

Treblaine:

You're twisting my argument to say that removing anything makes it easier to follow. No! That's not my argument, that's a straw man argument! My argument has consistently been that all the suit ABILITIES are still there but the controls in Crysis 2 are better for how you can more Directly Access the abilities and in Combination without Contradiction.

I'm not twisting your argument if I only reference mine. In the following paragraph I make no mention of your argument: The player has less control over the suit. In Crysis 2 there is no option to increase movement speed across the board (hell I just found you can't even sprint in any direction but forward in the second game). In Crysis 1, players had these options and the player who used them effectively had an advantage over those who didn't. In Crysis 2 there is no such option, no chance for players who would've wanted the opportunity to perform better. There is nothing that makes up for this, the mechanics have been homogenized in a way that where there was once a tactical option that could be used effectively by skilled players to differ from other players, there is now simply nothing.

Treblaine:

So it's ridiculous that something can be easier without being limited? There is no case in any design interface where things are needlessly complicated and poorly designed? The fact IS that it is hard!

No, is that seriously how you've been reading my argument the whole time, despite me constantly saying controls could be better. Wow. But no, what's ridiculous is your argument "it's easier therefore not limited". The two concepts are not related in a way that just let's you do that. I'd be all for Crysis 1 having easier, one button inputs, but not at the expense of losing or crippling entire suit modes. Those were what made Crysis unique and allowed a wider range of gameplay and skill.

And let's slow down and look at this quote again. "The fact IS that it is hard!" And that does it. You apparently do not know what a fact is. Either that or you possess enough arrogance to believe that something hard for you is hard for everyone. There are plenty of things I find difficult, Crysis 1 isn't one of them. I got over the controls, obviously other people got over the controls, in the time it's taken to write all this even you could've gotten over the controls.

Here's a real fact: you said Crysis 2 has "no limitations, no compromise". Yet you seem to have deviated from that. I've shown you in great detail how you're limited by the static time required to hold a button to use strength (as well as context sensitive actions), how the only function speed mode retains is a forced energy drain while sprinting, and how this lack of ability to more directly control how the suit operates in addition to the stripped functions results in less options available to the players. You've constantly compromised, claiming that other aspects somehow make up for missing or slower features by virtue of being easier to use. Not only that, but everything you seem to believe about Crysis 1 is literally incorrect, yet somehow you don't find anything wrong with continuing to spout the same inaccuracies simply because your game is broken.

Breadline:

...How are you not getting this? In Crysis 1, when I hit jump I can immediately super jump into the air without waiting, at the same speed it takes to press one button, in any suit mode. I've twice explained how this works. In Crysis 2 I have to wait, no matter what. Like I said in my edit, I loaded up Crysis 2 and it's even more blatant than I thought, especially with the strength punch.

I had to double-take on this one. You can only super-jump in Crysis 1 in Max Strength mode, not "when I hit jump" in any mode. I think you made some mistake when you were writing that or else you are very confused. You must Double-tapping jump to perform a super jump in any suit-mode other than max-strength.

By definition, double-tapping a key takes longer than a single tap. You have to wait. Same with super-punch, you have to double tap and wait for the game to register the second tap.

Let me propose this question to you:

If the strength abilities of Crysis 2 (super punch, super jump, etc) were executed not by a hold but a double-tap... would you accept this? Or would you still say that Crysis 2 is limited in this area? Isn't it trivial the difference between a double-tap and click+hold? Isn't Crysis 2 somewhat at an advantage here how you can do this in combination with other modes and abilities?

Look at it from a coding point of view, the game knows far sooner that it has to deliver a special-move when the input is held down. With a double tap it cannot begin any change until the second input is detected and then it has to interrupt the action that the first click initiated. Holding down the first action (normal punch) is never initiated, it releases the normal punch if input is for a short time, or if after a long time (anything more than a tap) it converts into the alternate input.

You used this control interface the VERY WAY that you typed the prose to reject click+hold.

Tap the space bar. Now hold it. Notice how seamlessly it can move from giving a single space to continuous "stream" of spaces. What we do NOT have is double-tap a key to enter a mode where every time you touch the same key you get a stream of that character rather than singular characters. See, there is a lot more depth and subtly to this than you might initially claim it to be, like that double-tapping is "instantaneous" and that click and hold is unreasonably long.

Yes it would be unlikely that such a specifically incomplete game would affect only you, which is why such a huge issue would have been brought up by someone somewhere sometime. And yet that never seems to have happened. I can't find anyone in existence with similar issues. For all we know it's a simple ghosting issue.

And one of my roommate has Crysis 1 and Warhead on Steam, and of course the games work normally.

Ghosting? I've only ever heard of that term for computer monitors, never for control inputs. My keyboard definitely doesn't have any other problem performing multiple simultaneous inputs.

"I can't find anyone in existence"

Earlier you said I couldn't use that argument. Don't consider this so unlikely considering how this is a particularly hard to describe aspect of the controls, and how such a fundamental component as double-tap jump to super-jump is not documented either. I only heard it from you and I accept it.

I'm not twisting your argument if I only reference mine. In the following paragraph I make no mention of your argument: The player has less control over the suit. In Crysis 2 there is no option to increase movement speed across the board (hell I just found you can't even sprint in any direction but forward in the second game). In Crysis 1, players had these options and the player who used them effectively had an advantage over those who didn't. In Crysis 2 there is no such option, no chance for players who would've wanted the opportunity to perform better. There is nothing that makes up for this, the mechanics have been homogenized in a way that where there was once a tactical option that could be used effectively by skilled players to differ from other players, there is now simply nothing.

Actually you did reference mine with your quote of "mental load" which I used in describing the needless complexity of performing the super-jump with radial menu. You're directly trying to make your claims of limited variety of abilities be part of my argument that easier controls = better game.

"There is nothing that makes up for this"

Really? There is nothing to make up for the inability to sprint backwards? How about:
-longer sprint distance
-speed-sprint while in Cloak (with slower use of suit energy)
-Speed-sprint while using max-armour (with slower use of suit energy)
-Easier and more practical super-jump
-Super-jump doesn't disable any other active mode

Really, when would you ever sprint in a direction you are not looking? You'll fly into anything and have to turn 180-degrees to see what is blocking you so you know which way to go around it. It's not like Serious-Sam where you are constantly back-peddling against hoards of minions. The absence of this is a trivial and insignificant change.

No, is that seriously how you've been reading my argument the whole time, despite me constantly saying controls could be better. Wow. But no, what's ridiculous is your argument "it's easier therefore not limited". The two concepts are not related in a way that just let's you do that. I'd be all for Crysis 1 having easier, one button inputs, but not at the expense of losing or crippling entire suit modes. Those were what made Crysis unique and allowed a wider range of gameplay and skill.

And let's slow down and look at this quote again. "The fact IS that it is hard!" And that does it. You apparently do not know what a fact is. Either that or you possess enough arrogance to believe that something hard for you is hard for everyone. There are plenty of things I find difficult, Crysis 1 isn't one of them. I got over the controls, obviously other people got over the controls, in the time it's taken to write all this even you could've gotten over the controls.

Here's a real fact: you said Crysis 2 has "no limitations, no compromise". Yet you seem to have deviated from that. I've shown you in great detail how you're limited by the static time required to hold a button to use strength (as well as context sensitive actions), how the only function speed mode retains is a forced energy drain while sprinting, and how this lack of ability to more directly control how the suit operates in addition to the stripped functions results in less options available to the players. You've constantly compromised, claiming that other aspects somehow make up for missing or slower features by virtue of being easier to use. Not only that, but everything you seem to believe about Crysis 1 is literally incorrect, yet somehow you don't find anything wrong with continuing to spout the same inaccuracies simply because your game is broken.

"what's ridiculous is your argument "it's easier therefore not limited" "

Actually my arguments are:

It has easier controls, therefore it's better, that in itself

and

Crysis 2 relative to Crysis 1, controls (extending to gameplay) are not limited in any significant way

You have not convinced me that Crysis 2 is significantly limited in any abilities. The absence of discrete modes for each special ability is undeniably the largest change and surely that removes limitations?

"not at the expense of losing or crippling entire suit modes."

OK. I can't account for your inexplicable preference to suit modes that seems to be in contradiction of your objection over limitations. Discrete modes are fundamentally limiting in how hard it if not impossible it is to combine abilities.

Speed mode doesn't have to be a mode when in practical terms it is only used for one thing: sprinting forward. The speed-sprint in Crysis 1 was ridiculously fast. You can see how the developers may have changed that purely for practical reasons. Think how many glitches in Crysis 1 are caused by a 50mph sprint?

Strength mode too only changed a few actions: punching, throwing and jumping. All could be replaced by special variants of each action.

Please: You have yet to explain why it is better for abilities to be divided into discrete and contradictory suit modes rather than directly accessed.

It makes sense to have Cloak and Armour in separate modes both from the game-logic sense that both are a force-fields acting in different ways and how it's a contradiction in tactics, you are either evading or engaging and being near invisible AND bullet resistant is overpowered. And it's established for balance that Cloak is disrupted by gunfire so it's a contradiction trying to use with armour. But Strength and Speed complement each other.

I think we have all said what we have to say on this matter:

-I said no compromise/limitation from Crysis 1 -> 2
-You object saying hold-time for strength abilities takes time so compromised/more limited
-I clarify that changing suit modes also takes time (either radial menu or double-tap) so is equivalent time, no compromise.

After that, it's around in circles quibbling about how quick you can change modes but unless you have anything more to add I've already said all I need to say on this. I hope you understand my explanation.

Everything I've said is totally accurate about my copy of Crysis. I didn't make it the way it is. That's EA/Crytek's fault. I can't speak for other people's experiences. Neither of us can suppose on this specific aspect of the controls as it has not been thoroughly documented to support either side. And I can still discuss the relative merits of double-tapping vs click-and-hold for shortcuts to special attacks.

I hope I've made my case adequately, though it does remind me a lot of this:

Oh well, no hard feelings,

Treblaine:

Breadline:
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I really have yet to see any evidence that ANYTHING is quicker in Crysis 1's speed mode other than running and sprint speed. Which leaves faster movement speed which might as well just be a single-button for super sprint. There is no Speed 'mode' in crysis 2, the single ability of speed mode now is a stand alone ability to use on demand.

I don't see the point obsessing over a speed mode but rather that the speed ability is there, though at a slower speed it takes you further.

Double tapping space while Max-Speed-sprinting to super-jump would be a pretty good way to work but:
-that doesn't actually work for me
-Even if it did, it's quicker to hold down space key than I can double-tap the jump-key
-even if I could double tap as quick as the hold time, it still disables any active mode like Max-Armour or Cloak that takes mental load to remember to switch back.

Super jump makes way more sense as a discrete ability than as a component of a discrete mode.

You can super punch instantly in Crysis 1 but not at any time in any mode, only in Strength Mode, which takes time to switch to and to switch back from. At ANY TIME you can super punch in Crysis 2 with minimum mental load or occupation of fingers/time. Mental load is a major issue in ergonomics, it says nothing of the individual's intellect as attention of other important factors (special awareness, forward thinking) must be Compromised to focus on something else like perform multi stage controls that interrupt aiming and use of multiple fingers in sequence.

This Crysis 1 super jump (assuming pressing forward):
activate Radial menu -> Mouse gesture to Max-speed -> release radial menu -> hold sprint -> activate Radial menu just at apex for jump -> Mouse gesture to strength mode -> release radial menu -> tap jump QUICK ENOUGH BEFORE MOMENTUM IS LOST -> (in mid air) activate radial menu -> gesture back to armour/cloak mode -> release radial menu -> release sprint

That is a 12 stage combo that needs absolutely perfect timing with EXTREMELY fast speed and not loosing mouse centring too much or being slightly off where you'd accidentally flip your perspective 90 degrees. There is a huge likelihood you will get it slightly wrong and go ploughing right into the minefield you were trying to jump over or fleeing over a cliff.

Or the Crysis 1 way with suit shortcuts to perform super jump while moving forward:
-double tap sprint
-hold sprint
-double tap jump at apex
-double tap S (default) for armour mode
-Release sprint

5 stages, 8 discrete inputs. Why is such a simple move like a fighting game finishing-move combo?

Compared to Crysis 2:
-tap sprint key to initiate sprint
-Hold jump key at apex to mega-jump

That's all you need to do to perform the super jump while retaining the mode you were in before, cloak or armour. Doesn't that seem more fitting for what should be such a simple move?

"I may as well claim that my Crysis 2 version doesn't work either."

Is that the actual case for you?

I am not making a false claim to support my argument, and I don't see how I can be mistaken. My friends (who also have the steam version) corroborate what I found but didn't particularly test it.

Can't you see this is a huge problem for Crysis 1 if apparently all the Steam versions are unreasonably hard to perform moves. I will be documenting this and investigating it further. But note, I still would prefer Crysis 2 controls to the controls of Crysis 1 even if the suit shortcuts worked properly

I recently bought Crysis and Crysis Warhead off steam because i loved Crysis 2 and i feel wayyyy more powerful in crysis 1. You have way more abilities and the suit feels way more unique and useful than C2. My game works fine though, or at least doesn't have the bugs yours does.

You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more. There is really no denying that you lose some stuff in C2. I can see why they did it, and i like the graphics/art design better, but the gameplay is still lacking.

I played power struggle in Crysis and it felt so much better. I actualyl felt like I needed skill where in C2 multiplayer you just run in circle and slide whenever you see someone. Its hard to go back to C2 now that i've played C1.

Hobonicus:

I recently bought Crysis and Crysis Warhead off steam because i loved Crysis 2 and i feel wayyyy more powerful in crysis 1. You have way more abilities and the suit feels way more unique and useful than C2. My game works fine though, or at least doesn't have the bugs yours does.

You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more. There is really no denying that you lose some stuff in C2. I can see why they did it, and i like the graphics/art design better, but the gameplay is still lacking.

I played power struggle in Crysis and it felt so much better. I actually felt like I needed skill where in C2 multiplayer you just run in circle and slide whenever you see someone. Its hard to go back to C2 now that i've played C1.

Really. What abilities do you have that aren't in Crysis 2? Be specific please.

I suppose in some ways the previous one you were slightly more powerful, but the power in Crysis 1 was just so hard to utilise. It was like a rocket engine on a motorbike, if that analogy makes any sense. I suppose it's most illustrative with the speed-sprint, so fast yet over so quick, you just seem to SHOOT forward accelerating constantly it's too hard to control in a thick forest I keep getting caught on geometry.

"You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more."

Uhh, you don't seem to have finished this sentence. You've made this claim but not given any actual examples :/

Crysis 2 offers loads that Crysis 1 doesn't have:
-slide from sprint under barriers
-Sprint and or Super-jump while in Armour and Cloak mode
-clamber up ledges
-analogue corner/ledge peeking
-longer cloak + sprint time
-Nanovision thermal view
-direct access to abilities
-More effective armour mode
-Nanosuit upgrades with 12 extra abilities
-Marking equipment
-detach and fire heavy-machine gun weaponry from vehicles
-hitmarkers for feedback on hits
-More efficient graphics engine (for same visual quality, runs better on same hardware as Crysis 1)
-DirectX 11 graphics

Crysis 2 controls were just so slick and well balanced it so made up for trivial changes like slower sprint speed.

Treblaine:

Hobonicus:

I recently bought Crysis and Crysis Warhead off steam because i loved Crysis 2 and i feel wayyyy more powerful in crysis 1. You have way more abilities and the suit feels way more unique and useful than C2. My game works fine though, or at least doesn't have the bugs yours does.

You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more. There is really no denying that you lose some stuff in C2. I can see why they did it, and i like the graphics/art design better, but the gameplay is still lacking.

I played power struggle in Crysis and it felt so much better. I actually felt like I needed skill where in C2 multiplayer you just run in circle and slide whenever you see someone. Its hard to go back to C2 now that i've played C1.

Really. What abilities do you have that aren't in Crysis 2? Be specific please.

I suppose in some ways the previous one you were slightly more powerful, but the power in Crysis 1 was just so hard to utilise. It was like a rocket engine on a motorbike, if that analogy makes any sense. I suppose it's most illustrative with the speed-sprint, so fast yet over so quick, you just seem to SHOOT forward accelerating constantly it's too hard to control in a thick forest I keep getting caught on geometry.

"You have to be crazy to think C2 isn't dumbed down. I love it, but C1 offers way more."

Uhh, you don't seem to have finished this sentence. You've made this claim but not given any actual examples :/

Crysis 2 offers loads that Crysis 1 doesn't have:
-slide from sprint under barriers
-Sprint and or Super-jump while in Armour and Cloak mode
-clamber up ledges
-analogue corner/ledge peeking
-longer cloak + sprint time
-Nanovision thermal view
-direct access to abilities
-More effective armour mode
-Nanosuit upgrades with 12 extra abilities
-Marking equipment
-detach and fire heavy-machine gun weaponry from vehicles
-hitmarkers for feedback on hits
-More efficient graphics engine (for same visual quality, runs better on same hardware as Crysis 1)
-DirectX 11 graphics

Crysis 2 controls were just so slick and well balanced it so made up for trivial changes like slower sprint speed.

That rocket engine on a motorbike feel was what i loved though. It really set the game apart from others in the genre. I know this comparison is made a lot, but after playing C1, Crysis 2 feels derivative of other popular shooters in the genre. The suit powers are a nice gimmick, but the only one that really felt like a game changer was stealth. In C1 the powers actaully felt diverse and powerful, to me it felt like you had to really learn and use them them instead of just being able to press Q as an 'oh shit i have to regenerate' button or jump high because the game puts a tall ledge in your path. in C1 enemy AI can get understandably confused by constantly moving extremely fast in speed mode while blinkign around with stealth, but in C2 you can't be as crafty with your movements, you really only have stealth to mess with them.

I have read through this thread, and i generally agree with the other guy, but i don't know any official stats and i do see where you're coming from Treblaine. i do know that C2 FELT very lacking in comparison to me, whether measurably true or not idk. i just felt less powerful, less able to change the situation dynamically. Soem items of your list like hit markers seem very specific in order to make it seem longer, but maybe those were important to you so i'm not judging. These are some things I liked that C1 had that C2 didn't:
-actual health bar
-prone
-choosing between four different suit modes
-strength mode not needing to charge to throw or punch or jump
-speed mode and all that came with it, i probably spend most of my tiem in this mode as i find it the most useful once you get good, shame it wasn't brought to C2 though it probably would have been awkward in the cramped city idk :(
-especially the faster sprint which really differenciated itself from the standard fps sprint
-being able to sprint in any direction, really helps strafing or going around corners, especially in speed mode
-higher high jump and longer long jump, i especially love long jumping with a speeding flying strength kick at the end :D
-leaning
-more physics, such as procedural destruction and forces affecting vegetation and smoke
-night vision
-FISTS
-large open environments and multiple objectives
-no markers telling you where to take shortcuts
-many vehicles on land, air, and sea
-vehicle sections that don't feel on rails
-32 player multiplayer with vehicles, capturable points that allow different strategies
-weapons and vehicles that launch nukes
-destroying car's tires to make them flip or hitting the gas tank to make them explode
-the tactical attatchment to fire sleep darts at enemies
-lighter movement, alcatraz moves much heavier and it feels clunkier and slightly harder to control accurately, this is really noticeable for some reason

i do know what you mean by C2 feeling slick, but to me it kinda feels bland cocmpared to C1. Once i got better i could do so much and feel like such a badass, but in C2 which i still play i don't feel like i could really get any better than i was back when i first started.

Treblaine:

I had to double-take on this one. You can only super-jump in Crysis 1 in Max Strength mode, not "when I hit jump" in any mode. I think you made some mistake when you were writing that or else you are very confused. You must Double-tapping jump to perform a super jump in any suit-mode other than max-strength.

By definition, double-tapping a key takes longer than a single tap. You have to wait. Same with super-punch, you have to double tap and wait for the game to register the second tap.

You aren't reading my explanations at all... When you double tap jump or punch in any suit mode, the first tap starts the action (you start punching or jumping) and the second tap changes you into strength mode during the action, turning your punch into a super punch before it connects and turning your jump into a super jump before you reach the apex. It's done at the speed of one button, the second tap doesn't increase the time before the action any more because the action is already in progress.

Treblaine:

Let me propose this question to you:

If the strength abilities of Crysis 2 (super punch, super jump, etc) were executed not by a hold but a double-tap... would you accept this? Or would you still say that Crysis 2 is limited in this area? Isn't it trivial the difference between a double-tap and click+hold? Isn't Crysis 2 somewhat at an advantage here how you can do this in combination with other modes and abilities?

If the strength abilities were activated by a double tap in Crysis 2 the same way they were in Crysis 1 then of course I wouldn't have an issue. They'd effectively be the same thing. And the difference absolutely isn't trivial. In Crysis 2 (which I'm playing right now), using strength punches, strength jumps, and strength throws in the middle of combat is ridiculously inefficient on the harder difficulties. While I'm charging up to punch, jump or throw something, the enemies are unloading in my face, that extra second of charging up like an idiot can often make all the difference.

Treblaine:

Look at it from a coding point of view, the game knows far sooner that it has to deliver a special-move when the input is held down. With a double tap it cannot begin any change until the second input is detected and then it has to interrupt the action that the first click initiated. Holding down the first action (normal punch) is never initiated, it releases the normal punch if input is for a short time, or if after a long time (anything more than a tap) it converts into the alternate input.

That doesn't make any more or less sense, even from the pseudo-code way you explained it. What difference does it make to the game if you hold the button down for a certain amount of time or press it again in a certain time frame. Are you worried about the poor game getting frazzled or something?

This also brings up another point that supports my issue. In Crysis 1, actions like jumps, punches, and throws activate on key press, in Crysis 2 they activate on key release. This is noticeable during times when you want to be precise but the action only initiates when you release the key, forcing you to simultaneously be in the moment and a fraction of a second ahead. That can make for an awkward disjointedness between the shooting and the movement because some things work on immediate key press while others only work on key release.

Treblaine:

Really? There is nothing to make up for the inability to sprint backwards? How about:
-longer sprint distance
-speed-sprint while in Cloak (with slower use of suit energy)
-Speed-sprint while using max-armour (with slower use of suit energy)
-Easier and more practical super-jump
-Super-jump doesn't disable any other active mode

...There's more to my argument than sprinting backwards, but if you think it takes all that just to make up for sprinting backwards then I'd love to hear how Crysis 2 makes up for all the other stuff it lost.
-Sprint distance is unlimited in Crysis because sprinting only drains energy when in speed mode and you can continue sprinting without energy.
-You can sprint while cloaked in Crysis 1 as well, the functionality remains the same.
-You can sprint while using max armor in Crysis 1 as well, the functionality remains the same.
-Your "easier and more practical super-jump" is subjective. I think Crysis 1 has an easier, more practical, more efficient, and more powerful method.
-So just re-enable the other mode you want, the ability to do so is on you, but nothing is lost.

Treblaine:

Really, when would you ever sprint in a direction you are not looking? You'll fly into anything and have to turn 180-degrees to see what is blocking you so you know which way to go around it. It's not like Serious-Sam where you are constantly back-peddling against hoards of minions. The absence of this is a trivial and insignificant change.

All the time. You're basically just guessing. It's extremely useful for strafing quickly, backpedaling while keeping your target in sight, long jumping to the side to get out of harm's way quickly. "You'll fly into anything" is a guess on your part, the same could be said for just moving in any direction but forward.

Treblaine:

Crysis 2 relative to Crysis 1, controls (extending to gameplay) are not limited in any significant way

You have not convinced me that Crysis 2 is significantly limited in any abilities. The absence of discrete modes for each special ability is undeniably the largest change and surely that removes limitations?

Because you refuse to be convinced no matter what I show you. Speed mode in all its glory is gone, in its place is a regular sprint that drains energy no matter what. Strength mode now forces the player to hold a button instead of being able to use it's powers immediately. The player's control over how, when, and for what purpose to use these functions has been limited.

Treblaine:

Speed mode doesn't have to be a mode when in practical terms it is only used for one thing: sprinting forward.

And there you have it, a prime quote by someone who never got the most out of Crysis. You see it as any old FPS and refuse to think beyond. You're considering the gameplay in such shallow terms, it pains me. If all it was used for is sprinting then yeah, of course it shouldn't have it's own mode. But when playing on the highest difficulties speed mode is often more useful than armor because of everything it does. Speed is its own mode because it allows such a different style of play.

Treblaine:

Please: You have yet to explain why it is better for abilities to be divided into discrete and contradictory suit modes rather than directly accessed.

If every ability was able to be directly accessed without compromise then I'd be all for that. But that isn't the case. Speed mode has lost everything, strength mode has been gimped.

Treblaine:
But Strength and Speed complement each other.

I'd be totally down to sticking maximum speed and maximum strength in a single mode, because I agree that they both affect movement and interaction with the environment in similar ways. But that's keeping in mind to not lose or cripple anything from either mode.

Treblaine:

-I said no compromise/limitation from Crysis 1 -> 2
-You object saying hold-time for strength abilities takes time so compromised/more limited
-I clarify that changing suit modes also takes time (either radial menu or double-tap) so is equivalent time, no compromise.

Except that clarification makes false assumptions. I can super jump/punch/throw faster in Crysis 1, even using the radial menu.

Treblaine:

Neither of us can suppose on this specific aspect of the controls as it has not been thoroughly documented to support either side.

I can't believe you're still saying this, it's ridiculous and you know it.

Let's leave the personal stuff behind us now, I didn't come here to be insulted, I came here for an argument :D

If every ability was able to be directly accessed without compromise then I'd be all for that. But that isn't the case. Speed mode has lost everything, strength mode has been gimped.

...
I'd be totally down to sticking maximum speed and maximum strength in a single mode, because I agree that they both affect movement and interaction with the environment in similar ways. But that's keeping in mind to not lose or cripple anything from either mode.

But isn't that what HAS been done in Crysis 2? It is the mode that is always on, the default mode where Armour Mode or Cloak can be put on top of it. I've moved this part of your quote to the front so I can move directly on from this to addressing your concerns that the abilities have been gimped, crippled or lost.

I also found that even though you can punch cars and dumpsters in Crysis 1, they are not sent flying like the they are in Crysis 2 where you hold for a special drop-kick type move. In Crysis 1 strength mode the best I can do is hit the car so it rolls on it's side. So in a way, the strength abilities have been buffed. And the jump height is just as high with the ability to grab ledges and pull yourself up.

I don't think we have even established that speed-mode improved anything other than movement speed.

Breadline:

You aren't reading my explanations at all... When you double tap jump or punch in any suit mode, the first tap starts the action (you start punching or jumping) and the second tap changes you into strength mode during the action, turning your punch into a super punch before it connects and turning your jump into a super jump before you reach the apex. It's done at the speed of one button, the second tap doesn't increase the time before the action any more because the action is already in progress.

I see, so double tapping extremely quickly, I found that in experimentation but I found though I could double-tap melee extremely fast, so the double tap was over before the hit was thrown, the thing was I saw my suit-energy didn't depleted at all. That meant no super punch was delivered from a rapid double-tap. See this is the problem, you are again claiming an aspect of controls I do not see in my version of the game. The game manual only says that double-tapping melee switches to Max-strength modes, not that it also delivers a max-strength punch. This cannot be anything to do with my mouse or controls.

Is it possible you were mistaken? Or that the double-tap of melee only delivers a super-punch if done relatively slowly so one click for one punch then second rapid clicks is super punch.

If the strength abilities were activated by a double tap in Crysis 2 the same way they were in Crysis 1 then of course I wouldn't have an issue. They'd effectively be the same thing. And the difference absolutely isn't trivial. In Crysis 2 (which I'm playing right now), using strength punches, strength jumps, and strength throws in the middle of combat is ridiculously inefficient on the harder difficulties. While I'm charging up to punch, jump or throw something, the enemies are unloading in my face, that extra second of charging up like an idiot can often make all the difference.

Well now we are getting somewhere. You're essentially fine with Crysis 2's controls but have a personal problem with it being a click-and-hold rather than double-click execution.

Is this really so bad considering the hold time is no where near a whole second as you claim, I think you are holding it for way longer than necessary or are exagerating.

I will try to find a way to quantify these factors but at the moment they are really subjective and definitely in the same ball park to the point where I don't see how you can argue on such objective terms how limited Crysis 2 controls are. I think your perceptions are obviously true to yourself but that's just your personal preferences. I'm just laying it out and presenting a reasonable case that you may admit to something beyond your personal and particular tastes.

That doesn't make any more or less sense, even from the pseudo-code way you explained it. What difference does it make to the game if you hold the button down for a certain amount of time or press it again in a certain time frame. Are you worried about the poor game getting frazzled or something?

This also brings up another point that supports my issue. In Crysis 1, actions like jumps, punches, and throws activate on key press, in Crysis 2 they activate on key release. This is noticeable during times when you want to be precise but the action only initiates when you release the key, forcing you to simultaneously be in the moment and a fraction of a second ahead. That can make for an awkward disjointedness between the shooting and the movement because some things work on immediate key press while others only work on key release.

Of course I'm not saying the game would get frazzled, I'm saying in theory it can respond with less ambiguity to the alternate input.

First you say double click is instantaneous (which would involve key press, key RELEASE then another press), now you say having action initiated on key release is detected in noticeably slower and unacceptably so. Loads of games do this without you realising it.

Don't forget how almost every game has inherent lag of 3 frames at least (read up on input-lag at Digital Foundry) and many games have such variable latency on each action we all instinctively plan our actions milliseconds ahead. Jumping in most games has deliberate latency as jumping, of course, does not mean a small explosive charge is detonated under your ass to immediately thrust you upwards, your legs much bend then straighten before jumping. We deal with this any time we need to jump in real life, you have to start to jump before the exact microsecond you must jump.

Also compare this to how you found the 12-step key+gesture combo for the super-jump being elementary, to suddenly objecting vociferously to accounting for lead time in jumping.

I don't see how it is disjointed, it's entirely intuitive that more powerful moves take a small moment to prepare. A large punch means the fist has to be drawn back. A higher jump the legs have to be coiled even more.

...There's more to my argument than sprinting backwards, but if you think it takes all that just to make up for sprinting backwards then I'd love to hear how Crysis 2 makes up for all the other stuff it lost.
-Sprint distance is unlimited in Crysis because sprinting only drains energy when in speed mode and you can continue sprinting without energy.
-You can sprint while cloaked in Crysis 1 as well, the functionality remains the same.
-You can sprint while using max armor in Crysis 1 as well, the functionality remains the same.
-Your "easier and more practical super-jump" is subjective. I think Crysis 1 has an easier, more practical, more efficient, and more powerful method.
-So just re-enable the other mode you want, the ability to do so is on you, but nothing is lost.

...

Speed mode in all its glory is gone, in its place is a regular sprint that drains energy no matter what. Strength mode now forces the player to hold a button instead of being able to use it's powers immediately. The player's control over how, when, and for what purpose to use these functions has been limited.

But Crysis 2's sprint is way faster than the regular-sprint of Crysis 1 (that is, holding sprint-key in Strength, Cloak or Armour Mode). Be reasonable, The sprint in Crysis 2 is closer to sprinting in max speed mode in Crysis 1, just not quite as fast, still over 30 miles per hour, just not highway cruising speed.

Surely you can see how two different sprints could be seen my the developers as redundant and THAT is why it was removed. Crysis 2 default movement speed is faster, and since you are OK with making claims on relative speed I think it's safe to say the default movement speed in Crysis 2 is like when the sprint key is held down in Crysis 1 or the default-speed in speed-mode (blah, such a mouthful, but you follow right?).

Crysis 2 could easily have had the sprint-speed of crysis 1, the jump height is the same if you actually compare it, I just think the developers found it too fast for pacing, or how they knew sprint distance should be further yet retaining such a high speed as well would be so overpowered and huge parts of the game would be skipped by. More is not always better, think about restraint as a matter of proportion.

Treblaine:

Speed mode doesn't have to be a mode when in practical terms it is only used for one thing: sprinting forward.

If all it was used for is sprinting then yeah, of course it shouldn't have it's own mode. But when playing on the highest difficulties speed mode is often more useful than armor because of everything it does. Speed is its own mode because it allows such a different style of play.

But as far as I can tell all speed does is give a faster sprint. I don't see anything being tangibly quicker, nor rifle reload speed nor changing stance. That mode's default speed is so similar to just holding down the sprint key, and that speed is so similar to the default-speed in Crysis 2. It doesn't seem speed-mode had any effect on reload speed of rifles and such, or at least no noticeable effect.

So I think that covers everything, my argument the changes from Crysis 1 to 2 were not fundamental limitations but just rearrangements with changes in abilities that just might not gel with personal preferences.

The game felt like Far Cry except mixed with Halo, thats why I didnt like it

Hammeroj:
You could say that. Although toned down is really too light an expression to use.

Was that screenshot cherry picked? Like someone set the sensitivity to high and spun around faster than the graphics could load or something? Cause that looks awful by PS3 standards never mind Crysis standards.

Pearwood:

Hammeroj:
You could say that. Although toned down is really too light an expression to use.

Was that screenshot cherry picked? Like someone set the sensitivity to high and spun around faster than the graphics could load or something? Cause that looks awful by PS3 standards never mind Crysis standards.

That's straight out of the trailer.

Hobonicus:

That rocket engine on a motorbike feel was what i loved though. It really set the game apart from others in the genre. I know this comparison is made a lot, but after playing C1, Crysis 2 feels derivative of other popular shooters in the genre. The suit powers are a nice gimmick, but the only one that really felt like a game changer was stealth. In C1 the powers actaully felt diverse and powerful, to me it felt like you had to really learn and use them them instead of just being able to press Q as an 'oh shit i have to regenerate' button or jump high because the game puts a tall ledge in your path. in C1 enemy AI can get understandably confused by constantly moving extremely fast in speed mode while blinkign around with stealth, but in C2 you can't be as crafty with your movements, you really only have stealth to mess with them.

I have read through this thread, and i generally agree with the other guy, but i don't know any official stats and i do see where you're coming from Treblaine. i do know that C2 FELT very lacking in comparison to me, whether measurably true or not idk. i just felt less powerful, less able to change the situation dynamically. Soem items of your list like hit markers seem very specific in order to make it seem longer, but maybe those were important to you so i'm not judging. These are some things I liked that C1 had that C2 didn't:

i do know what you mean by C2 feeling slick, but to me it kinda feels bland cocmpared to C1. Once i got better i could do so much and feel like such a badass, but in C2 which i still play i don't feel like i could really get any better than i was back when i first started.

You have to admit, Crysis 1 did feel very much like a big crazy tech demo with a whole load of stuff thrown together. I just found this got boring very quickly.

The suit modes emphasised the different abilities but stepping back and looking at it objectively they aren't so unique,

My problem with Super-Sprint in Crysis 1 is to spite the enjoyment of the speed it just chewed through the power so quick and cuts off when down to 20%, that means I sprint into combat with no suit energy (armour-mode depleted energy) to do anything or if in combat and low on energy I cannot escape.

There aspects actually ARE in Crysis 2:

But some of them are undoubtedly gone but I'd like to say something about each:

Crysis I find just too flawed in its overreaching design. They lost any kind of objective approach to abilities being simplistically divided between discrete modes. The only real nerf going to Crysis 2 was the speed of the sprint, everything else has been refined or changed for practical reasons.

Treblaine:
trivial stuff snip

I admit I was harsh, but it's frustrating when the person you're arguing against declares to have proven you wrong, declares a lot of the stuff you said was nonsense, declares that your objections don't hold up to scrutiny, then you find out they had a faulty basis for those declarations the whole time and they refuse to even admit that using a broken system to prove something is a little silly. You haven't said anything about proving me wrong recently, so maybe you're past that point. Though for the record, I wasn't saying you're shallow, only that you were treating Crysis like it was a shallow FPS, only looking at the surface mechanics.

Treblaine:

But isn't that what HAS been done in Crysis 2? It is the mode that is always on, the default mode where Armour Mode or Cloak can be put on top of it. I've moved this part of your quote to the front so I can move directly on from this to addressing your concerns that the abilities have been gimped, crippled or lost.

I don't think we have even established that speed-mode improved anything other than movement speed.

But have we at least established that the option to increase movement speed across the board is not something you can do in Crysis 2, right? It's disappointing that you can't check quick and simple things like going into speed and switching weapons or moving around while crouched, or even see these things in any videos such as what basically amounts to a speed/cloak mode advertisement video I posted on page 2.

Treblaine:

I also found that even though you can punch cars and dumpsters in Crysis 1, they are not sent flying like the they are in Crysis 2 where you hold for a special drop-kick type move. In Crysis 1 strength mode the best I can do is hit the car so it rolls on it's side. So in a way, the strength abilities have been buffed. And the jump height is just as high with the ability to grab ledges and pull yourself up.

...

I see, so double tapping extremely quickly, I found that in experimentation but I found though I could double-tap melee extremely fast, so the double tap was over before the hit was thrown, the thing was I saw my suit-energy didn't depleted at all. That meant no super punch was delivered from a rapid double-tap. See this is the problem, you are again claiming an aspect of controls I do not see in my version of the game. The game manual only says that double-tapping melee switches to Max-strength modes, not that it also delivers a max-strength punch. This cannot be anything to do with my mouse or controls.

Is it possible you were mistaken? Or that the double-tap of melee only delivers a super-punch if done relatively slowly so one click for one punch then second rapid clicks is super punch.

I feel like both of these could be demonstrated with yet another video that displays basic mechanics that were inexplicably stricken from your game. Are you sure you're playing Crysis 1 or Warhead and not Halo? They're both sci-fi shooters so maybe you lumped them together for being redundant and consider them the same game.

(Sorry for the choppiness, I had to use my roommate's computer)

So it is a strength punch and the car actually goes much further than Crysis 2. Though for the record, I don't consider the raw distance the car travels after being kicked/punched as any sort of issue, they both functionally do the same thing. Variables like distance are relative to the game they're a part of.

And further down you say "More is not always better, think about restraint as a matter of proportion" which is great advice you seem to ignore multiple times. I've said things like strength jump goes higher, but those are minor quips. My main issue concerns the functionality of the nanosuit and how the player's control over how to use it and for what reasons has been limited or crippled.

Treblaine:

Is this really so bad considering the hold time is no where near a whole second as you claim, I think you are holding it for way longer than necessary or are exagerating.

You can't hold the button for longer than necessary, you automatically punch once it's charged enough. Letting go anytime before that and you throw a normal punch. If I bind my record button to the same button as melee and check on Adobe Premiere at what point energy was drained to signify the start of the punch, I get .734 seconds. So yeah 1 second was a bit of an exaggeration, but it's very noticeable in combat, especially on the harder difficulties.

Using a strength punch is basically useless on the hardest difficulty purely because it takes too long. In Crysis 1 it could be very useful and didn't force you to stand there like an idiot eating bullets while you charged up. And if someone was out of reach you could perform a quick sprint speed long jump flying max strength haymaker to the face without having to wait for the game to process your actions.

It's awkward for me to have to wait for the game to throw my punch when before it just did what I said when I said.

Treblaine:

Also compare this to how you found the 12-step key+gesture combo for the super-jump being elementary, to suddenly objecting vociferously to accounting for lead time in jumping.

I don't see how it is disjointed, it's entirely intuitive that more powerful moves take a small moment to prepare. A large punch means the fist has to be drawn back. A higher jump the legs have to be coiled even more.

The ridiculous "12 step process" (which I still find to be a desperate attempt at making something incredibly simple sound complicated) is at least all based on the player, and I'll always take requiring more skill over having the game do it for me.

I can't think of a single game that jumps on key release instead of key press. It doesn't happen in any Valve games, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Battlefield, platformers like Mario and Sonic. I'm obviously not gonna check all my games, but I definitely can't think of another game that does it that way. In Crysis 2 I hit jump and it feels like my character is simply slow to react. Having played games my whole life, and especially being a fan of shooters, it's a specifically awkward feeling.

And I feel like you're just using the word intuitive as a cop-out buzz word. A longer delay might feel more realistic (though you could simply say the point of the nanosuit is that the extra strength allows you to perform these actions at regular speed but with more power) because you have to pull your arm back, but I'm not talking about the delay between tensing your muscles and letting fly a punch, I'm talking about a delay between your brain sending the signal and your muscles even receiving them.

The jump and melee buttons are the only ones that activate on key release. Moving, shooting, crouching, using powers, etc, all happen immediately like in every other game, except jump and punch wait slightly before even starting. It's very noticeable to me, and I think is a big reason why Hobonicus mentioned Alcatraz feeling clunky. You can try to call it realistic, but I think that's grasping and avoiding the issue of this being a gameplay inconsistency. I think one thing that would have helped a little would be when you press the button down the animation starts, and finishes when released. That way there would have been at least some sort of indication that my character wasn't just a little slow in the head.

Treblaine:

But Crysis 2's sprint is way faster than the regular-sprint of Crysis 1 (that is, holding sprint-key in Strength, Cloak or Armour Mode). Be reasonable, The sprint in Crysis 2 is closer to sprinting in max speed mode in Crysis 1, just not quite as fast, still over 30 miles per hour, just not highway cruising speed.

Surely you can see how two different sprints could be seen my the developers as redundant and THAT is why it was removed. Crysis 2 default movement speed is faster, and since you are OK with making claims on relative speed I think it's safe to say the default movement speed in Crysis 2 is like when the sprint key is held down in Crysis 1 or the default-speed in speed-mode (blah, such a mouthful, but you follow right?).

Crysis 2 could easily have had the sprint-speed of crysis 1, the jump height is the same if you actually compare it, I just think the developers found it too fast for pacing, or how they knew sprint distance should be further yet retaining such a high speed as well would be so overpowered and huge parts of the game would be skipped by. More is not always better, think about restraint as a matter of proportion.

Your use of the word redundant is a big reason why I said you were seeing Crysis as a shallow FPS. If two abilities did the exact same thing, then that'd of course be redundant, but you're lumping different aspects together into single concepts. Maybe their functions are close enough to you that removing those options doesn't matter, but it certainly makes a gameplay difference to me, and these aspects are simply not identical, that's a fact. By your line of thought, we may as well just have three weapons: assault rifle, shotgun, and pistol, because everything else is "redundant", right? Why clutter up the weapon list when it could be simplified.

I do see why they would lessen the sprint for the environments they made, but I still see it as a limitation, not necessarily for the raw speeds and distances. The sprint in Crysis 2 is functionally balanced to fulfill the standard FPS sprint role, which is not what speed sprint did in Crysis 1. Speed sprint was a very fast burst of speed that can be used to dart quickly in, out, and around danger, fundamentally different than the standard sprint used in all FPS games. And it's functionally different than how sprint is designed to be used in Crysis 2. So I agree that you can't really compare raw speeds between games because they've been balanced differently, but Crysis 2's sprint is functionally more comparable to Crysis 1's regular sprint because of how they are used relative to their respective games.

That said, the player's control over sprint has still been limited. Gone is the ability to quickly dart around. And no matter what, if I want to go at all faster my only option is to stand up, sprint forward, and use suit energy.

Treblaine:

But as far as I can tell all speed does is give a faster sprint. I don't see anything being tangibly quicker, nor rifle reload speed nor changing stance. That mode's default speed is so similar to just holding down the sprint key, and that speed is so similar to the default-speed in Crysis 2. It doesn't seem speed-mode had any effect on reload speed of rifles and such, or at least no noticeable effect.

Firstly, not quite sure what you mean by "changing stance". If you mean switching between standing/crouching/prone, I never said that. I don't know if you change stance quicker but you do move faster while crouching and while prone. It's also weird that you keep saying all speed mode does is increase sprint speed when above you specifically stated that the default speed increased while in speed mode. Make up your mind here.

And saying that movement speed in Crysis is akin to speed mode movement is not only wrong but defeats the point. (This bit is subjective) Turning something passive takes the fun out. The whole point of games is their interactivity, even if the default Crysis 2 speed was close to Crysis 1 in speed mode (it's not though), taking out the layer of control is my whole issue. It's no longer a decision, and when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness. You can't say Crysis 2 still has those features, because those features are the options that raise the skill ceiling and make me enjoy the game more. Anything that has become automatic or passive has lost the interactivity involved with it, lost the need for players to learn how best to control it, and thus lost the whole appeal of using it in a game.

Treblaine:

You have to admit, Crysis 1 did feel very much like a big crazy tech demo with a whole load of stuff thrown together. I just found this got boring very quickly.

The suit modes emphasised the different abilities but stepping back and looking at it objectively they aren't so unique,

My problem with Super-Sprint in Crysis 1 is to spite the enjoyment of the speed it just chewed through the power so quick and cuts off when down to 20%, that means I sprint into combat with no suit energy (armour-mode depleted energy) to do anything or if in combat and low on energy I cannot escape.

There aspects actually ARE in Crysis 2:

But some of them are undoubtedly gone but I'd like to say something about each:

Crysis I find just too flawed in its overreaching design. They lost any kind of objective approach to abilities being simplistically divided between discrete modes. The only real nerf going to Crysis 2 was the speed of the sprint, everything else has been refined or changed for practical reasons.

I don't really see why i have to admit that C1 felt like a tech demo just because it offered more, and that seems an odd basis for boredom, but to each his own i guess.

Even though I didn't pick apart your list did you did so with mine, so i guess i'll try to return the favor:

-high/long jumps, you jump higher and further in C1, anyone can tell you that. and C2 doesn't even have a long jump like C1 does, it;s just kind of a regular jump that goes a wee bit further, and the punch at the end isn't more powerful like in C1 unless you charge it up.

-analogue leaning, it's awful. it's slow, doesn't work half the time, and isn't conducive to fast gunplay. i hate jumping behind cover and having to stop and reposition myself so that i'm sure it'll work. that auto lean thing is so goddamn clunky, it messes me up more than it helps and it's never consistent except on a few specific chest high barriers.

-i used night vision a lot, there were plenty of night levels. and nanovision is just annoying. why would i care how 'useful' it is when it isn't even fun to use. it's just a thermal vision that makes everything harder to see and breaks up the pacing.

-i'm sorry, but there is no way the (usually linear) verticality makes up for some of the big open levels like the harbor, where you have multiple objectives and can attack them from any angle using a whole range of tactics including vehicles. in C2 its all linear and head on, and C1 had verticality too with the towers and buildings.

-no markers telling you where to take shortcuts, ah the infamous 'don;t like it don't use it' argument. those markers tell you where everything is. even if i don't use them, i no longer have any reason to explore or anything because it's all been laid out for me. there's no discovery, no planning that the game hasn't already explained to me. it's boring. and defining how i use my list is a little petty, don't you think?

-vehicles, there weren't 'many' in C2, there were two... C1 had more land vehicles, water vehicles, and air vehicles. The only air vehicle you pilot in single player is the VTOL but they're all available in multiplayer. why would you even try to debate this... it's like you purposely just want to be conflicting even when you're wrong.

-you say vehicle sections are 'equally' on rails? as in, the same? really? have you actually played these games? that tank level in C1 was GINORMOUS. there were multiple objectives, different conflict areas, and most importantly, non-linear progression. it's impossible to complete that level by going in a straight line. in C2 you followed the road and even that was constrained by debris...

-more physics, it's a fallacy to disprove something by attacking another point. C1 doesn't have destruction like battlefield, but it does have more than C2. any tree that was a palm or skinnier could be procedurally broken, and all the vegetation reacted to things like a VTOL's engine or explosions.

-FISTS, fists are stronger than the normal melee attack with a weapon. it's not redundant because it's different. it's another choice i have at my disposal and i like that system, like how in tf2 you have to decide to pull out your melee weapon. allows for a little more skill, separates the men from the boys.

-tactical attachment, i'm not sure what you mean by 'Also under barrel attachment in Crysis 2', theres nothing in C2 even remotely like the tactical attachment.

-health bar, i think you've missed the point. you're only comparing a health bar to regenerating health on a moment by moment basis. you've ignored that using health bars offer a more consistent consequence, one that cannot simply be regained by hiding behind cover or the new max armor briefly.

-prone, i guess you didn't use it much, which is ok, but i used it tons. In multiplayer it's great for hiding in grass or bushes. in single player, the AI have a harder time noticing you when you're prone and you have less sway when aiming, cloak drains much slower. i used crouch more, but prone definitely had it's uses. It didn't hurt you or your experience right? why support its removal if other people enjoyed it?

-i prefer choosing between 4 modes because it's just more fun. C2 felt like a normal fps with a neat cloak mode, an overpowered oh shit now i'm invincible while i recharge my health mode, and gimmicky but ultimately pointless high jump and super punch. C1 doesn't feel like a normal fps and a big reason for that is the 4 different modes. i like having to switch between them it takes skill and offers a nice sense of risk vs reward for each situation. it's like how rpgs have classes or talent trees, they'd be boring if everything was just merged into one, and in C1 you switch between your modes like you would members of the party in an rpg. i just feel more involved, like i'm the one being badass, not just because the game tells me i am but because i'm good actually good at using the powers. I played C2 and it's multiplayer for a few months after release and though it was awesome, it never felt like much more than a standard fps.

-strength mode not needing to charge to throw or punch or jump, the charge time is short yeah, but it's still there and it slows me down. why do you support slowing me down? :( and when i think of how i super punch, i don't advance towards the enemy with the button held down, that's weird and doesn't happen in any other game. when i think about super punching i super punch. period.

- o.O sprinting when in speed mode is way faster in C1 than C2, and you can jump to launch yourself even faster. sprinting in speed mode was like one of the first big changes i noticed in C1 when i came from C2. I was like whooaaaaa.

-sprinting in any direction, i guess youre just gonna have to trust that I have decent spacial awareness and don't usually run into things like you do. And sorry, i didn't mean circle strafing like in a vehicle, that's my bad, bad terminology. I just meant quickly moving around someone while keeping them in view.

-i don't see how something not being a main feature gives it less value. why would you want to debate my point of enjoying the multiplayer more if it makes no difference to you? it's still just as fun regardless of how much hype it got. it's sad if you only judge the features of a game that were marketed most. fun is fun whether or not its a main feature, and that fun wasn't really carried over into C2.

-dude destroying the tires was really easy and can happen a lot... are you really complaining that it's hard to shoot tires because your frame rate is low? turn down the settings then... they even show you a good point to try shooting the tires in the opening nanosuit intro video.

I'd also like to add manual saves to my list because UGH the forced checkpoint system could get so annoying. i usually like to take the much slower, more stealthy approach and a lot of times there wouldn't be a single checkpoint for two or three different enemy encampments. so even though i meticulously dominate one section, a small mistake from the next one could set me way back. eventually i just stopped taking risks, losing a lot of the fun in the process, and played the generic fps way like the devs wanted.

Breadline:

But have we at least established that the option to increase movement speed across the board is not something you can do in Crysis 2, right? It's disappointing that you can't check quick and simple things like going into speed and switching weapons or moving around while crouched, or even see these things in any videos such as what basically amounts to a speed/cloak mode advertisement video I posted on page 2.

I can check simple things like switching weapons and the time is the same in Max-Speed mode.

Yes in Crysis 1 you move around faster in crouch in Max-speed mode relative to armour-mode. Also you do slow down in Crysis 2 when you activate Max-Armour in Crysis 2, so there you have your options for your "skill ceiling". It's a matter of where you set the baseline of movement speed, you move faster when NOT in armour mode in both Crysis 1 and Crysis 2!

I feel like both of these could be demonstrated with yet another video that displays basic mechanics that were inexplicably stricken from your game. Are you sure you're playing Crysis 1 or Warhead?

(Sorry for the choppiness, I had to use my roommate's computer)

WHAT THA FUUUUUUU-

I tried to re-create that exactly and it is NOTHING like that! I have strength mode on and left-click with fists weapon selected, the best I can ever do is get it to flip on it's side. NOT go flying and spinning through the air ploughing through trees and exploding!

My test looked more like this:

Actually, looking at your video it seems really odd. It was just a jab to the door-frame that sent it spinning and flying away, knocking over several trees and then exploding. It just looks ridiculous. You sure your roommate didn't change some of the strength-values in the game? Just look at this game that HAS been modified for increased strength values:

that's 10'000x normal strength, are you absolutely positively sure that the strength is not scaled? Obviously not to 10'000x strength, but maybe just 1000x strength?

You can't hold the button for longer than necessary, you automatically punch once it's charged enough. Letting go anytime before that and you throw a normal punch. If I bind my record button to the same button as melee and check on Adobe Premiere at what point energy was drained to signify the start of the punch, I get .734 seconds. So yeah 1 second was a bit of an exaggeration, but it's very noticeable in combat, especially on the harder difficulties. Using a strength punch is basically useless on the hardest difficulty purely because it takes too long.

In Crysis 1 it could be very useful and didn't force you to stand there like an idiot eating bullets while you charged up. And if someone was out of reach you could perform a quick sprint speed long jump flying max strength haymaker to the face without having to wait for the game to process your actions. It's awkward for me to have to wait for the game to throw my punch when before it just did what I said when I said.

That does make an assumption that there is no lag with the energy meter? You couldn't have just hit an object and gone frame by frame till you saw it move? Anyway, assuming you are right on your timing estimate that's not unbearable, 0.73-sec swing time for a one hit kill, I am used to in Left 4 Dead 2, where all the melee weapon are similarly one-hit-kills they take around 0.6-0.8 second to hit.

What stops me using super punch against soldiers in Crysis 1 combat was how weak the armour mode was even on normal-difficulty you lost so much health and could easily lose all your energy so you could not do the super punch. Same with trying to use the Cloak or speed sprinting up to them. And how once you hit (or missed) the enemy you were left in strength mode and any other soldiers immediately chewed you to pieces. The Stealth and Armour mode in Crysis 2 were so much more substantial, it was actually possible to get close to the enemy to deliver these close kills without dying!

The ridiculous "12 step process" (which I still find to be a desperate attempt at making something incredibly simple sound complicated) is at least all based on the player, and I'll always take requiring more skill over having the game do it for me.

I can't think of a single game that jumps on key release instead of key press. It doesn't happen in any Valve games, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Battlefield, platformers like Mario and Sonic. I'm obviously not gonna check all my games, but I definitely can't think of another game that does it that way. In Crysis 2 I hit jump and it feels like my character is simply slow to react. Having played games my whole life, and especially being a fan of shooters, it's a specifically awkward feeling.

And I feel like you're just using the word intuitive as a cop-out buzz word. A longer delay might feel more realistic (though you could simply say the point of the nanosuit is that the extra strength allows you to perform these actions at regular speed but with more power) because you have to pull your arm back, but I'm not talking about the delay between tensing your muscles and letting fly a punch, I'm talking about a delay between your brain sending the signal and your muscles even receiving them.

The jump and melee buttons are the only ones that activate on key release. Moving, shooting, crouching, using powers, etc, all happen immediately like in every other game, except jump and punch wait slightly before even starting. It's very noticeable to me, and I think is a big reason why Hobonicus mentioned Alcatraz feeling clunky. You can try to call it realistic, but I think that's grasping and avoiding the issue of this being a gameplay inconsistency. I think one thing that would have helped a little would be when you press the button down the animation starts, and finishes when released. That way there would have been at least some sort of indication that my character wasn't just a little slow in the head.

You keep calling it ridiculous, but you never dispute any single part of that 12 step process. Sorry, that's not refuting my argument, that is just denying it.

I didn't say it was just for "on key release" I said some kind of delay on jump. In digital foundry's investigation into input latency they used Halo 3 as an example where the jump has deliberate lag, hence why they test input lag with gunfire that should be instantaneous as it's so simple to pull a trigger and the firing sequence of a mechanism should microsecond not milliseconds. But character animations so often have deliberate lag that you can't be sure if it is the software that is causing input lag or the designed animation.

I don't think you realise how well established the tap/hold dichotomy is used in video games. The crouch in all the COD games, tap to crouch and hold to prone. There is no noticeable extra lag on crouching. It's the same dichotomy in the opposite direction with jump, tap for small vertical movement, hold for larger one.

Your use of the word redundant is a big reason why I said you were seeing Crysis as a shallow FPS. If two abilities did the exact same thing, then that'd of course be redundant, but you're lumping different aspects together into single concepts. Maybe their functions are close enough to you that removing those options doesn't matter, but it certainly makes a gameplay difference to me, and these aspects are simply not identical, that's a fact. By your line of thought, we may as well just have three weapons: assault rifle, shotgun, and pistol, because everything else is "redundant", right? Why clutter up the weapon list when it could be simplified.

I do see why they would lessen the sprint for the environments they made, but I still see it as a limitation, not necessarily for the raw speeds and distances. The sprint in Crysis 2 is functionally balanced to fulfill the standard FPS sprint role, which is not what speed sprint did in Crysis 1. Speed sprint was a very fast burst of speed that can be used to dart quickly in, out, and around danger, fundamentally different than the standard sprint used in all FPS games. And it's functionally different than how sprint is designed to be used in Crysis 2. So I agree that you can't really compare raw speeds between games because they've been balanced differently, but Crysis 2's sprint is functionally more comparable to Crysis 1's regular sprint because of how they are used relative to their respective games.

That said, the player's control over sprint has still been limited. Gone is the ability to quickly dart around. And no matter what, if I want to go at all faster my only option is to stand up, sprint forward, and use suit energy.

Sorry, you say Crysis 2's sprint is to "fulfill the standard FPS sprint role". Then your description of the sprint in Crysis 1 would also fit in that definition that is not fundamentally different! You saying it is, isn't enough. You can dart quickly in/out/around danger is Crysis 2 with its sprint. It's just a matter of proportion not fitting with your tastes. You cannot claim a fundamental difference.

I am really sure that the default-speed in crysis 2 is the movement speed with sprint-key held down, or in Max-speed mode. And in Crysis 2 you slow down in Max Armour mode, to about the speed in Crysis-1's max-strength/armour mode. The three speeds for the tactical variety are STILL THERE. Do you see what I mean by having redundancy?

If you are in armour mode in Crysis 2, you don't have to sprint to go faster, you could disengage armour mode. Do you see your obsession with the WAY CRYSIS 1 IS has blinded you to the reality of the way crysis 2 is?

Firstly, not quite sure what you mean by "changing stance". If you mean switching between standing/crouching/prone, I never said that. I don't know if you change stance quicker but you do move faster while crouching and while prone. It's also weird that you keep saying all speed mode does is increase sprint speed when above you specifically stated that the default speed increased while in speed mode. Make up your mind here.

And saying that movement speed in Crysis is akin to speed mode movement is not only wrong but defeats the point. (This bit is subjective) Turning something passive takes the fun out. The whole point of games is their interactivity, even if the default Crysis 2 speed was close to Crysis 1 in speed mode (it's not though), taking out the layer of control is my whole issue. It's no longer a decision, and when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness. You can't say Crysis 2 still has those features, because those features are the options that raise the skill ceiling and make me enjoy the game more. Anything that has become automatic or passive has lost the interactivity involved with it, lost the need for players to learn how best to control it, and thus lost the whole appeal of using it in a game.

"It's also weird that you keep saying all speed mode does is increase sprint speed when above you specifically stated that the default speed increased while in speed mode."

No, what you misunderstand is that the default movement velocity in speed-mode is the speed in the other-modes with sprint held down (fractionally different, effectively identical), the only practical change is you don't have to hold down the sprint key. In speed mode you don't have to hold the sprint key, holding the spritn key initiates what should be a proper sprint.

Now "sprint" semantically means more than "move faster". It is moving as fast as you can at a sacrifice of sustainability, you can only sprint for a few seconds. Not a marathon where you "run" for several hours. In every mode but Max-speed, holding the sprint key you don't move as fast as you can, you move at a sustainable speed and it's dumb that you cannot shoot in that mode.

"when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness."

Why should it be that it's "purpose" is to be a "separate thing"? This is ridiculous and I'll tell you why it is ridiculous, because you are expecting that a button has to be held down to do something mundane as moving forward at a steady and continuous pace, just to give it "uniqueness" and "balance". What we are talking about here is holding down shift to move at a constant high speed, which though labelled sprint isn't a sprint. A sprint by definition is your fastest run that you cannot sustain for long.

Just hold the W key. Going back to Crysis, it pisses me off hold I was constantly holding down the Shift-key in Crysis 1, and hold I couldn't fire while holding it.

Yeah, I went back to Crysis and weirdly enough I now CAN jump while holding down sprint. The change came after a loading screen to the next level after (where Prophet gets carried off) it suddenly works. Anyway, I tried the double-tap jump as you suggested and I noticed something I suspected in your video. Even though you sprint forward in Speed-mode and can double-click space to perform super jump, the vectors are NOT combined like in Crysis 2. That is to spite speeding forward at the speed of a car your point from jump is no higher than if you were just in strength mode pressing W and then Space key. It's really weird, I seem to change direction in air with forward velocity increasing and turning to vertical velocity. Very weird.

I also investigated the car tire shot and I realise now why I can't get those shots. The humvee-like cars need TWO BULLETS from the assault rifle to shoot out a tire!!! It's only 1/3 ounce of lead at 2300 feet per second, that's alone is somehow not enough to shoot out a tire!!! FFFUUUUUU-

I may try the 10'000 strength scale in Crysis 1 along with super-health as that actually does look like fun, unlike the games I've played. My recent memory is nothing but trying to advance on a KPA soldier in armour mode as they walk back unloading a mag into my face as I try to take a swing at them, and give up and just shoot them.

endtherapture:

Adam Jensen:
It's everything but generic. It does most things differently from other shooters. And in a good way, not in useless gimmick kind of way. Nanosuit and realistic physics are integral parts of the game that make all the difference. It also had switch for full auto, burst or single shot, as well as some different ammo mods. That made it even more awesome. Also, weapon modification on the fly? That was pure brilliance!

Too bad Crysis 2 was so dumbed down. Now that is a generic shooter with gimmicks.

Crysis 2 was pretty much 1 very long cutscene with a few shooty bits. You could sneak through the entire game. Pinger boss fights were shit.

Damnit.. i just picked up 2 today... was about to go try it now

Hobonicus:

I don't really see why i have to admit that C1 felt like a tech demo just because it offered more, and that seems an odd basis for boredom, but to each his own i guess.

Even though I didn't pick apart your list did you did so with mine, so i guess i'll try to return the favor:

Not bored, frustrated. I'm frustrated by Crysis 1

1-have you actually compared high-jumps side by side in Crysis 1 and Crysis 2? They really are almost identical

2-Lean keys are equally awkward for how you have to hold them down and manipulate A and D keys to peek. The only possible way is to press lean in one direction then rech up with the thumb to press A and D. There is NO WAY to carefully inch by inch peek over the top of a horizontal ledge in crysis 1.

3-Not fun to use Nanovision? But that's Predator mode! You know, that Arnold Schwarzenegger movie. And nanovision is as useful in daytime and night as well as when there is dust or fog in the air.

4-There was some verticality in Crysis 1 but no where near as much in Crysis 2 were so often you would enter an area from an elevated position, Crysis 1 it was really limited to shooting some guy at a machine gun post on top of a building or watch tower.

5-Your list WAS of things that Crysis 2 lacks compared to Crysis 1, yet you list the opposite with the markers! What is so infamous about "don't like it, don't use it" seriously? It's not fallacy, it makes perfect sense, to not use it. This is you complaining that you are NOT limited!

6- All right, so technically on occasion you get more vehicles, but the two key types: the armoured car and the tank were still there.

7- Sorry but I mainly remember the boat run in Crysis 1 was hugely "on rails", it was racing up a narrow river system as helicopters shot the shit out of you.

8-"it's a fallacy to disprove something by attacking another point."

... WHAT?!? How else am I supposed to challenge a point if I can't challenge it! You may spuriously call such a challenge an "attack" but you can't say your points are infallible and cannot be touched! If you mean "another point" as in a separate issue, I think you mean use a Straw Man fallacy (here, I'm listing the fallacies you could use against me) it is not because the BF3 example is relevant to the issue of the VALUE of destructible environment.
Destructible environment there just for the sake of it is an example of why Crysis 1 earns the tech-demo label, there were so few ways it could actually be applied to gameplay. But BF3 the destructible environments were key in how to go about objectives.

And there is also a plausible explanation why so little destructible environments in Crysis 2, because it's set in a city where almost all structures are made of concrete and cinder blocks, and Crysis 1 is on a tropical island where light shed-like structures are to be expected as they just have to keep off the rain not block out the cold of harsh winters.

9-Really? Who says fists are more powerful? It takes the same number of hits to kill pressing the melee button or selecting fists and attacking.

"Sort the men from the boys" and what is THIS faux-machismo crap? I am fed up with this double standard, when Crysis 2 has something that is in any way hard but DIFFERENT from crysis 1 they whine bitterly like old women, yet if something is harder in Crysis 1 compared to C2, it's suddenly a macho challenge to over come. Flip flopping from tough-guy to overwhelmed.

10-Yes there is something similar to tactical attachment, any of the weapons with a silencer. You can't quibble over one redundant feature going when there are still plenty of varied under-barrel attachments.

11-OK, so beyond the moment-by-moment basis... then they are even MORE the same as both Crysis 1 and 2 had rebounding health, you knew after a few seconds all your health would be restored. Consistent consequence applies just as much to if there is or is not a visible health bar/counter. You need a counter for suit energy as you know how much or what rate each ability/mode uses power and can push limits, but can't do the same with your health vs damage. You have missed or ignored MY point!

12-I don't support the removal of Prone, I just don't care. Most of the FPS games I have played and loved from Half Life series, FEAR, Bioshock, Left 4 Dead, System Shock, Team Fortress 2 and so on, Prone is not there and not missed. I can't have a double standard of hating Crysis 2 for not having prone but not also hating Half Life 2 a little bit for lacking it as well.

In my experience with Crysis 1, prone has such an insignificant effect on the enemy's ability to see you, the only way to not be noticed, if you are in line of sight, is to be in Cloak. It was similarly ineffectual in reducing weapon sway and recoil. But the real kicker was precisely how cluttered the environment is, neither Crysis 1 or 2 are barren games with long geometric flatness, there is almost always stuff on the ground so going prone you can't see your target.

13- I don't find it fun having to give up the abilities of one mode to use the abilities of another, that is a huge compromise. Crysis 1 IS all that Crysis 2 is, but with modes! You've been had by the gimmick of modes. Your assessment of Crysis 2:

"a neat cloak mode, an overpowered oh shit now i'm invincible while i recharge my health mode, and gimmicky but ultimately pointless high jump and super punch."

Yet if they are divided into 4 modes in Crysis 1, fundamentally limiting their use, it's somehow better. Something more than a standard FPS.

"in C1 you switch between your modes like you would members of the party in an rpg."

That's not the super-soldier I signed up to be, Micro-managing 4 characters in one, rather than a single super-soldier! If you like RPG elements, why not the Modules in Crysis 2? Anyway, this is not an RPG like Elder Scrolls or KOTOR, this is Strategy like Final Fantasy turn-based-battle games, that Final Fantasy games are RPGs, the group-management is not defining of RPGs but what defines Final Fantasy as an RPG-Strategy.

By the way, it's a reasonable limitation to not use Cloak AND Armour at the same time for their contradictory purpose, that they should be mutually exclusive, and clearly things that have to operate over an extended time period and not an instant. But a burst of speed, a great leap or a huge powerful punch should not be modes but abilities to trigger.

14- Well some consistency would be nice. You welcome the huge limitation of discrete suit modes that you cannot directly switch to as a challenge, yet the tiny fraction of a second delay for very-powerful moves is unbearable. Give me a break, I don't buy this. It doesn't slow you down having to think such a short time ahead. Leading attacks is a well established element of FPS games, even with melee attacks, in left 4 dead 2 the weak knock-back melee is instant but the melee weapons are one hit kill but have a long swing time, there is a fraction of a second delay from clicking to the swing hitting as you'd expect, you can pull a trigger quicker than swing an axe. Or in Crysis 2's case wind back a fist for a super-punch

15- The Fastest Sprint in Crysis 1 may be slightly faster in Crysis 2 but I've found you can actually perform those huge distance jumps in Crysis 2.
I managed to get my copy of Crysis working so I can super-jump while sprint in Max-Speed mode by double-tapping Space (jump) but I found that the forward velocity of my sprint was not added to my vertical velocity of super jump, the forward velocity got cancelled and just got the high jump. It's pointless.
I'll still like Crysis 2 more because the sprint take me WAY further and how you can easily and ACTUALLY combine it with the super-jump.

16-What is the point in strafing where you are not looking, I suppose to keep aiming at your enemy except as I think I pointed out you cannot shoot and "sprint" at the same time! I can sprint in any direction in Half Life 2 AND shoot as I do so, but not in Crysis! You want to sprint at that speed, even at Crysis 2's sprint, you'll surely want to look where you are going! Why do you need to look at the enemy?

You know why I never tried sprinting to the side or backwards is Crysis 1? Other than how it makes sense to look where you are going at that speed? It makes sense that you could travel your fastest possible speed going FORWARD. I think Usain Bolt couldn't ever sprint as fast running backwards or sidewys going as forwards, no matter how much he trained. Your arms can punch forwards and legs easily propelled forwards to take the next bound. Stepping to the side or back is reasonably the same speed as stepping forward, but sprinting is more than simply faster stepping.

17- No, it's just I don't want to discuss multiplayer because I have not played either, nor do I care to. I didn't care about Bioshock 2's multiplayer either, I don't see why the game would need it. Anyway, I have no experience with them so have nothing to say on them.

18- Realise it's not just the frame-rate, a whole load of factors like the generally weird hit detection and the huge sway on most weapons, I remember sniping the guards on that compound where the CIA-agent was held. My crosshairs were waving about so much and even when I was sure I had my crosshairs dead over their heart when I fired I'd just hit the dirt. I didn't have the same problem sniping in other games like TF2 or COD4.
And, this is all based on the assumption the same cannot be done in Crysis 2, says who? I saw ties being shot out in demos of Crysis 1 and that's it. I never got a chance to test it in EITHER crysis 1 or 2, every time I see a vehicle, even if driving, it has moved out of my line of sight or stopped before I can line up the sights with any of the tires. I realise I could only do it in a scenario like this, which is a custom map by the way and they knew what was coming:

And it's hardly that dramatic, it jumped a bit and they all safely piled out. If I'd shot the driver they'd be minus one occupant and it would probably have continued with forward speed and crashed more catastrophically.

I've also discovered this one-shot tire pop is ONLY possible with a weapon as powerful as the sniper rifle, the assault rifle needs TWO count em TWO shots to a tire to pop it. Wow. No wonder I never got this shot, I always though I missed, I probably did hit but I needed TWO HITS BRUAHAHAHAAAAAAH!!! *MAXIMUM RAGE*

19- I'll concede on no-quicksaving, that is the ONE FEATURE that crysis 2 is severely lacking in as quick-saving is such a great way to explore a game world, to try new things without fear of death forcing you to retrace so much. But on the other hand, I do often force myself to not use quicksave, if there is an auto-save in place otherwise I quicksave as a crutch. But I want that choice to NOT use quicksave, not to have the entire mechanism taken from me.
But to me, the risk taking is in NOT quicksaving, it's a different approach to take more chances and not break your rhythm or plan to die.

Also you didn't seem to have anything negative to say about these Crysis 2 improvements:

-slide from sprint under barriers
-Sprint and or Super-jump while in Armour and Cloak mode
-clamber up ledges
-longer cloak + sprint time
-direct access to abilities
-More effective armour mode
-Nanosuit upgrades Modules with 12 extra abilities
-Marking equipment
-detach and fire heavy-machine gun weaponry from vehicles
-hitmarkers for feedback on hits
-More efficient graphics engine (for same visual quality, runs better on same hardware as Crysis 1)
-DirectX 11 graphics

Smithburg:

endtherapture:

Adam Jensen:
It's everything but generic. It does most things differently from other shooters. And in a good way, not in useless gimmick kind of way. Nanosuit and realistic physics are integral parts of the game that make all the difference. It also had switch for full auto, burst or single shot, as well as some different ammo mods. That made it even more awesome. Also, weapon modification on the fly? That was pure brilliance!

Too bad Crysis 2 was so dumbed down. Now that is a generic shooter with gimmicks.

Crysis 2 was pretty much 1 very long cutscene with a few shooty bits. You could sneak through the entire game. Pinger boss fights were shit.

Damnit.. i just picked up 2 today... was about to go try it now

Crysis 2 has the same amount of cutscenes as crysis 1 and you can just as much cloak walk though both games.

I don't get the complaints about Crysis 2, people call it Gimmicky for having the same features as Crysis 1 yet lacking the gimmick of suit-modes. No consistency.

Treblaine:

I can check simple things like switching weapons and the time is the same in Max-Speed mode.

That's not true, and it's even noticeable enough with any weapon to be obvious. Another quick thing you can check, try setting up/reloading a missile launcher in speed mode. Very useful for when someone is barreling down on you in a vehicle. The skilled player might switched to speed mode, pull out their missile launcher and fire, the less skilled player might just get torn up while switching to the missile launcher while in armor mode.

Treblaine:

Yes in Crysis 1 you move around faster in crouch in Max-speed mode relative to armour-mode. Also you do slow down in Crysis 2 when you activate Max-Armour in Crysis 2, so there you have your options for your "skill ceiling". It's a matter of where you set the baseline of movement speed, you move faster when NOT in armour mode in both Crysis 1 and Crysis 2!

In Crysis 2, armor is an activated mode like cloak that drains your energy. You do not move around for extended periods of time in it, the slowdown is a consequence and does not demonstrate what the game accepts and balances as default movement speed. In Crysis 1 it's a default suit mode (one of three) in which you move at the default movement speed and you spend much more time in it than Crysis 2. One cannot choose to be able to move faster in all areas, the only choice made is one of neglect.

Treblaine:

WHAT THA FUUUUUUU-

I tried to re-create that exactly and it is NOTHING like that! I have strength mode on and left-click with fists weapon selected, the best I can ever do is get it to flip on it's side. NOT go flying and spinning through the air ploughing through trees and exploding!

It's a completely fresh install, no mods, no enhancements not even the keybindings are changed. The explosion came from a tree falling on it.

Treblaine:

That does make an assumption that there is no lag with the energy meter? You couldn't have just hit an object and gone frame by frame till you saw it move? Anyway, assuming you are right on your timing estimate that's not unbearable, 0.73-sec swing time for a one hit kill, I am used to in Left 4 Dead 2, where all the melee weapon are similarly one-hit-kills they take around 0.6-0.8 second to hit.

The energy meter depletes before the swing animation even happens. If I waited until the object I hit moved it would certainly be more than a second. I don't understand your comparison to L4D2, which I play a lot. In L4D2 when you hit the attack button you swing your melee weapon instantly. There's no charge time, no delay before your character attacks, they swing right when you tell them to.

Treblaine:

What stops me using super punch against soldiers in Crysis 1 combat was how weak the armour mode was even on normal-difficulty you lost so much health and could easily lose all your energy so you could not do the super punch. Same with trying to use the Cloak or speed sprinting up to them. And how once you hit (or missed) the enemy you were left in strength mode and any other soldiers immediately chewed you to pieces. The Stealth and Armour mode in Crysis 2 were so much more substantial, it was actually possible to get close to the enemy to deliver these close kills without dying!

I don't mean this as a personal insult to you, but this is an entirely skill related issue.

Treblaine:

You keep calling it ridiculous, but you never dispute any single part of that 12 step process. Sorry, that's not refuting my argument, that is just denying it.

Because I keep expecting you to come to your senses and realize how ridiculous it really is. First of all, you stubbornly use the hardest method when an easier solution is available at no consequence. Secondly, you seem to assume the average user is some kind of inhuman idiot lacking any form of muscle memory and unable to perform the slightest action without consciously considering it first. "Select speed from radial menu" should be one action, not "activate Radial menu -> Mouse gesture to Max-speed -> release radial menu", what kind of idiot has to think about and get flustered by something so simple to make natural? When you take a step do you say "ok now I have to put one foot forward -> slow down to make sure the foot touches down in front of me -> place foot directly flat on the ground -> put weight onto placed foot -> etc"?

I said it's ridiculous and didn't add more because your whole 12-step-process speaks for itself. Anyone can see it as a silly attempt to overcomplicate.

Treblaine:

I didn't say it was just for "on key release" I said some kind of delay on jump. In digital foundry's investigation into input latency they used Halo 3 as an example where the jump has deliberate lag, hence why they test input lag with gunfire that should be instantaneous as it's so simple to pull a trigger and the firing sequence of a mechanism should microsecond not milliseconds. But character animations so often have deliberate lag that you can't be sure if it is the software that is causing input lag or the designed animation.

This is so pointless. There is a longer delay between pressing the button and the game to even realize that a jump needs to be initiated than any other game I can think of. Done.

Treblaine:

I don't think you realise how well established the tap/hold dichotomy is used in video games. The crouch in all the COD games, tap to crouch and hold to prone. There is no noticeable extra lag on crouching. It's the same dichotomy in the opposite direction with jump, tap for small vertical movement, hold for larger one.

It's been a while since I've played CoD, but I'm guessing it isn't a tap to crouch, hold to prone situation like you say. You probably crouch immediately when the crouch button is pressed and go into prone after it's held. That's different, and only comparable to a jump where pressing space immediately makes you jump, but holding it while in the air makes your jump continue higher. That is a common use of holding jump for a variable height seen in most platformers, that is entirely different than Crysis 2 where the type of jump can't even be considered until you've let go of the button.

If however in CoD the player does indeed not crouch/prone until the button is released, then that sounds like a clunky system.

Treblaine:

Sorry, you say Crysis 2's sprint is to "fulfill the standard FPS sprint role". Then your description of the sprint in Crysis 1 would also fit in that definition that is not fundamentally different! You saying it is, isn't enough. You can dart quickly in/out/around danger is Crysis 2 with its sprint. It's just a matter of proportion not fitting with your tastes. You cannot claim a fundamental difference.

The features in both games are balanced to work certain ways in their respective games. In Crysis 2, the relationship of your sprint to the enemy/environment does not allow for the same strategies that the relationship between speed sprint and the enemy/environment does in Crysis 1. They are not used for the same purpose. The sprint in Crysis 2 is used for the same purpose that the regular sprint in Crysis 1 is used for.

Treblaine:

I am really sure that the default-speed in crysis 2 is the movement speed with sprint-key held down, or in Max-speed mode. And in Crysis 2 you slow down in Max Armour mode, to about the speed in Crysis-1's max-strength/armour mode. The three speeds for the tactical variety are STILL THERE. Do you see what I mean by having redundancy?

If you are in armour mode in Crysis 2, you don't have to sprint to go faster, you could disengage armour mode. Do you see your obsession with the WAY CRYSIS 1 IS has blinded you to the reality of the way crysis 2 is?

That'd be a decent point if it didn't ignore that the Crysis 1 speed sprint is used for different reasons than your normal sprint, and that speed mode offers other speed related perks than just movement speed while standing, and that this speed is available in cloak thus negating the trade-off there, and that the slowdown is a consequence balanced to act as a slowdown relative to the rest of the game and not as reverting to default speed.

The games both have default speeds, relative to the game they exist in. You say that these things are proportional to their games then compared raw speeds without context. The Crysis 2 default speed isn't simply "Crysis 1 in speed mode", it's the default movement speed, built to exist as a default movement speed with certain enemies and environments in mind. And you just made up that bit about Crysis 2 default movement being equal to moving in speed mode.

Treblaine:

Now "sprint" semantically means more than "move faster". It is moving as fast as you can at a sacrifice of sustainability, you can only sprint for a few seconds. Not a marathon where you "run" for several hours. In every mode but Max-speed, holding the sprint key you don't move as fast as you can, you move at a sustainable speed and it's dumb that you cannot shoot in that mode.

Now tell me where in that definition it says we're only allowed to go faster when our nanosuits have energy. If you're out of suit energy, it is impossible to go faster than the default movement speed. In Crysis 1 the suit is an auxiliary device meant to take the character beyond normal limits, I suppose being able to sprint indefinitely isn't as realistic, but where actual gameplay is concerned the options are more than Crysis 2 gives you.

Treblaine:

"when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness."

Why should it be that it's "purpose" is to be a "separate thing"? This is ridiculous and I'll tell you why it is ridiculous, because you are expecting that a button has to be held down to do something mundane as moving forward at a steady and continuous pace, just to give it "uniqueness" and "balance". What we are talking about here is holding down shift to move at a constant high speed, which though labelled sprint isn't a sprint. A sprint by definition is your fastest run that you cannot sustain for long.

Just hold the W key. Going back to Crysis, it pisses me off hold I was constantly holding down the Shift-key in Crysis 1, and hold I couldn't fire while holding it.

Call it sprint, call it running fast, I don't care. What you call it doesn't change its function. If you want to fire while moving at the speed of a regular sprint (or regular fast run or whatever is important to you that it's called) then switch to speed mode. You lose the additional armor and gain the ability to fire while moving quickly, and if you're in danger then switch back and forth between them as needed.

You also can fire immediately while sprinting, it slows you down to the normal running speed but if you're still holding sprint when you let off the trigger you instantly continue sprinting as usual. Firing in small bursts makes the slowdown minimal. This is more than what Crysis 2 offers, in which trying to fire while sprinting forces you to completely slow before even pulling the gun up to a firing position and you have to release and redo the sprint after you finish firing. So firing in small bursts while sprinting is inefficient and ineffective in Crysis 2 whereas in Crysis 1 the sprint is barely affected.

The options are there for people to use them, and those who utilize those options fare better than those who don't. Giving the option increases the range of possible skill, making it automatic for everyone allows for no chance of getting better.

Treblaine:

Yeah, I went back to Crysis and weirdly enough I now CAN jump while holding down sprint. The change came after a loading screen to the next level after (where Prophet gets carried off) it suddenly works. Anyway, I tried the double-tap jump as you suggested and I noticed something I suspected in your video. Even though you sprint forward in Speed-mode and can double-click space to perform super jump, the vectors are NOT combined like in Crysis 2. That is to spite speeding forward at the speed of a car your point from jump is no higher than if you were just in strength mode pressing W and then Space key. It's really weird, I seem to change direction in air with forward velocity increasing and turning to vertical velocity. Very weird.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Do you expect to go higher when combining sprint speed and a strength jump?

And I saw you mention to someone else that hitmarkers were new to the series in Crysis 2 and I'd like to point out that when you shoot someone in Crysis 1 your reticule turns red to indicate they were hit.

Just got to sat, the verticality in Crysis 2 is not better.

In Crysis 1 you can climb watchtowers, attack from above cliffs and cranes, or attack from below, from rivers and stuff.

Crysis 2 has none of that.

Treblaine:
snip

1. yes I have compared the jumps. the high jumps are higher and the long jumps go especially further at a faster speed.

2. lean is awkward for you, extremely useful for me.

3. whatever, you like nanovision, i don't. I don't see why you need to debate this.

4. the verticality in C2 is mostly linear in that you only go up and down in a straight path. In the areas where it is more open, the verticality is rarely better than C1, though there are some well designed areas. But that still doesn't make up for the huge open maps of C1.

5. you ignored what i said about discovery. Surely you understand the joy of exploration, how that accomplishment is done by you and not blatantly pointed out by the game. I'm all for shortcuts existing, but the game showing me exactly where they are is boring and removes creatively searching for new paths or strategies. and its still petty to try and argue the semantics of my list.

8. you challenged the comparison of C1's physics to C2's by saying that C1 didn't have great physics in the first place. You briefly mentioned that you could shoot some trees in C2 then ignored the fact that this is a comparison and only attacked C1's destructibility as if you could devalue it without admitting that C2 had even less.

9. not only are fists more powerful, but they hit with more force. and obviously i wasn't seriously being macho with that "separates the men from the boys" bit, you need to calm down.

10. Silencers are available in C1 as well and are different than the tactical attachment, which puts someone to sleep no matter where you hit them. i don't see why i can't have an issue with the tactical attachment beign removed. you're basically just saying 'take what you're given and like it'. it isn't in C2, that's all that i need to have an problem.

11. you obviously haven't played on any of the higher difficulties.

12. i care, and you took the time to try and analyze my point for the sole purpose of devaluing it so obviously you care too. and prone made a huge difference in C1, there were many, many areas that crouch couldn't fully conceal you and being prone definitely hides you better from the AI when in tall grass or bushes. if you really think it's insignificant then wow.

13. I don't see how it's a limitation when you can do more once you get good. i think an issue is that all the arguments you make are just kinda assumptions, you never really played either game extensively like i have with both.

And i find the strategy and skill involved in mixing modes fun, it's that part that MAKES it more than a standard fps. and in C2 the strength mode stuff is slow and useless, speed mode just doesn't exist and it's features didn't migrate to another selectable mode, and armor mode is too overpowered with the new regenerating health, and cloak is just way overpowered. when they're all smushed together it's no better than just having the game give me a stronger character without requiring me to get any better. maybe you don't like the act of micro-managing anything, but i think that's where the non-twitch based skill comes from, which is skill that most modern fps don't have. you also went far too into the fact that i used an rpg party as an analogy.

14. making the punch or jump take longer doesn't add strategy, it just makes them take longer and feels awkward because no other game does that. maybe if it had been balanced better or something but as it is, they're pretty useless in comparison.

15. you definitely can't perform those big long jumps in C2. in C2 it's like a normal jump that just goes a little bit farther. In C1 you launch in a direction and move way farther and faster than the pitiful long jump in C2. also, why do you care so much if you can combine a super jump with super speed? that seems to be your main issue in this whole thread but it's something you'd rarely use, definitely not as much as long jumps or high jumps on their own. but anyway, you definitely can combine it with super speed, and you go farther, so i'm not sure what your point is.

16. you can't find reasons to sprint in any direction but forward, but i did all the time. that's on you. i don't see why you think turning away from an opponent is always preferable, surely you'd like to keep an eye on the danger assuming you already know your current path. walls and static objects aren't gonna move, i know where those are, but opponents change and move.

and even though we're talking gameplay you keep citing realism as justification. you can keep your realism if it means making my game less enjoyable.

18. weird hit detection? i've seen multiple times on this thread that you've said your game doesn't work right. i never noticed any weird hit detection, probably because it's only you. maybe you didn't know that C1 has bullet physics and those other games you mentioned don't? idk

---

About the C2 improvements, i don't get why you expect me to have negative things to say. you love conflict no matter what, you've shown that many times in this thread. i don't automatically look for a way to bring down someone's opinion. I loved C2, its the reason why i bought C1 and Warhead, but i'll respond to your list anyway.

-slide is cool, kinda annoying how it's used as basically the equivalent of dolphin diving in multiplayer, but still cool
-Sprint and or Super-jump while in Armour and Cloak mode, this isn't really a new feature? in C1 you can easily switch in and out of these modes quickly enough for the cloak to not even disappear before you've strength jumped, same with armor. and you can sprint in those modes too, works about the same as C2
-clambering up ledges helps because the super jump is a little shorter, but its annoying that all ledges weren't created equal. there are many times when i'll jump to a ledge but the game has decided that the ledge isn't climbable for some reason. idk if i'd call this a new feature, it's a nice convenience to help make up for the shorter jump, but besides a new animation it doesn't really do anything new in terms of gameplay. in fact it'll often interrupt me when i jump high enough to go over a ledge but the animation plays anyway and forces me to wait while i'm being shot.
-longer cloak + sprint time, i think that cloak is overpowered, and the sprint forces you to drain energy and doesn't let you sprint AT ALL when it's drained. and the C1 super speed sprint went way faster anyway which is fun and isn't like any other fps i know of, so meh i don't really see these as a plus.
-direct access to abilities, i definitely like that armor and cloak only require one button, it's too bad C1 didn't have that feature for it's 4 modes but i learned to get good at it anyway. i may not have even used them exclusively anyway since the radial menu only uses one button and works just as quickly.
-more effective armor mode, i don't really see how it's more effective, seems about the same except it slows you down and works way too well with the regenerating health. i basically just used it as an oh shit button when my health got low. i guess it's not really that bad though, the C1 armor mode isn't to special either.
-nanosuit modules, i really like these, they're a cool new feature
-marking equipment, i don't really care about this, it's not like the equipment was hard to find and the levels were pretty confined with lots of ammo caches stuck directly in your path. if anything, all the weapon icons floating around when using the tactical visor got kinda annoying when i only wanted to look for enemies.
-heavy-machine guns, pretty cool new feature. i never used them because they limited everything you could do and were very inaccurate when not mounted on a vehicle, but still a cool feature for those who use that playstyle.
-hitmarkers, hitmarkers should really only be for multiplayer to know if you hit someone in case there's lag. in singleplayer they just get in the way because you can see if you hit someone simply by watching your bullet make blood splatter. but this isn't really a new feature anyway, C1 had a very unobtrusive hitmarker by making your crosshairs flash.

Comparing C1 and C2 is kinda like comparing manual and auto transmissions. Manual transmissions are harder to get used to, but ultimately provide more control and are more effective, and automatics sacrifice that to be easier to use.

I'm slowly starting to grow out of any game that has rechargeable health. I played Crysis 2 and thought it was an excellent game, however I tried playing it again but only found it boring. Then I tried Crysis 1 and found that to be boring too

Breadline:

That's not true (that weapon switch time is quicker), and it's even noticeable enough with any weapon to be obvious. Another quick thing you can check, try setting up/reloading a missile launcher in speed mode. Very useful for when someone is barreling down on you in a vehicle. The skilled player might switched to speed mode, pull out their missile launcher and fire, the less skilled player might just get torn up while switching to the missile launcher while in armor mode.

Right, I took the effort of trying it with every weapon, it is so SO slightly faster. Such a small increase it is WORTHLESS to take even a fraction of a second to switch to speed mode in effort to switch weapons quicker.

"reloading a missile launcher"

You can't. Missile launcher has three missiles that are fired in sequence just as fast in all suit modes. There is no reload.

In Crysis 2, armor is an activated mode like cloak that drains your energy. You do not move around for extended periods of time in it, the slowdown is a consequence and does not demonstrate what the game accepts and balances as default movement speed. In Crysis 1 it's a default suit mode (one of three) in which you move at the default movement speed and you spend much more time in it than Crysis 2. One cannot choose to be able to move faster in all areas, the only choice made is one of neglect.

Yep, Armoured mode is active and drains power in use. Why don't you appreciate the Strategy of this? You only activate it when you are in the meat grinder and is FAR more effective at absorbing damage.

"One cannot choose to be able to move faster in all areas"

What is this muddled nonsense? Areas??!? Proof read your posts, we are talking about the status of the character, not what area they are in in the environment. Do you mean "cannot activate faster movement in all MODES"? Why do I have to translate your posts... that is not true, YOU CAN Speed-SPRINT AT ANY TIME! Without deactivating any mode.

and the Crysis 2 sprint is MUCH faster than holding sprint key in armour mode of Crysis 1. Video comparison forthcoming.

It's a completely fresh install, no mods, no enhancements not even the keybindings are changed. The explosion came from a tree falling on it.

That's not an explanation. Your strength punch is well over an order of magnitude more powerful than any other native non-modded punch demonstrated. The tree fell on it BECAUSE IT SNAPPED IT IN HALF! Don't BS me.

Please, you should try replicate the hits you saw in the video I posted. In any way.

The energy meter depletes before the swing animation even happens. If I waited until the object I hit moved it would certainly be more than a second. I don't understand your comparison to L4D2, which I play a lot. In L4D2 when you hit the attack button you swing your melee weapon instantly. There's no charge time, no delay before your character attacks, they swing right when you tell them to.

There is definitely a delay in impact in l4d2. I've killed so many zombies in left 4 dead, there is such a distinct delay between clicking and them actually getting mincemeated. Really, how can you complain so bitterly about such a trivial issue, charge attack are so well established in video and computer games, what is not established is having to change through so many contradictory modes with such indirect methods. Radial menus are so rare outside of RPG games where they are usually used when you have the luxury of time. And double tapping other functions keys is ridiculous, what if you just want to duck quickly to avoid something then duck again, not activate cloak mode.

I don't mean this as a personal insult to you, but this is an entirely skill related issue.

This is another cop-out non-answer. You over and over fall back on skill, yet you complain endlessly about mundane things like charge time on super-powerful moves. You've insulted me before, now you are just irritating me.

Because I keep expecting you to come to your senses and realize how ridiculous it really is. First of all, you stubbornly use the hardest method when an easier solution is available at no consequence. Secondly, you seem to assume the average user is some kind of inhuman idiot lacking any form of muscle memory and unable to perform the slightest action without consciously considering it first. "Select speed from radial menu" should be one action, not "activate Radial menu -> Mouse gesture to Max-speed -> release radial menu", what kind of idiot has to think about and get flustered by something so simple to make natural? When you take a step do you say "ok now I have to put one foot forward -> slow down to make sure the foot touches down in front of me -> place foot directly flat on the ground -> put weight onto placed foot -> etc"?

I said it's ridiculous and didn't add more because your whole 12-step-process speaks for itself. Anyone can see it as a silly attempt to overcomplicate.

It's logic won't speak for itself if you read it with a conformational bias, you only look for the ridiculous so you can dismiss it, not the relevant comparison.

I HAVE EXPLAINED THIS ALREADY! The point of going into that detail for the 12 step process is I give the SAME detail for the COMPARISON with doing the same in Crysis 2!

-Tap sprint to start sprint
-hold jump at right point

That is AS MUCH detail as the 12-step process, when to hold the radial-menu, the gesture, and to release are each. I have explaiend why it is ridiculous TWICE now.

This is so pointless. There is a longer delay between pressing the button and the game to even realize that a jump needs to be initiated than any other game I can think of. Done.

This makes it seem like you aren't even reading what I say, I HAVE given you games to think about. And really, are we talking about a SIGNIFICANT delay here? No. You say that double tapping (pressing, releasing THEN pressing again) is as good as instantaneous yet tapping and releasing is unbearable?!?! Hypocrisy.

It's been a while since I've played CoD, but I'm guessing it isn't a tap to crouch, hold to prone situation like you say. You probably crouch immediately when the crouch button is pressed and go into prone after it's held. That's different, and only comparable to a jump where pressing space immediately makes you jump, but holding it while in the air makes your jump continue higher. That is a common use of holding jump for a variable height seen in most platformers, that is entirely different than Crysis 2 where the type of jump can't even be considered until you've let go of the button.If however in CoD the player does indeed not crouch/prone until the button is released, then that sounds like a clunky system.

You guessed wrong. Call of Duty's crouch system is exactly like I describe.

You may assume a certain continuous movement mechanism for CoD but will not give the same benefit to Crysis 2 as we've seen established in crysis 1 how double tap can work that way.

The (sprint) features in both games are balanced to work certain ways in their respective games. In Crysis 2, the relationship of your sprint to the enemy/environment does not allow for the same strategies that the relationship between speed sprint and the enemy/environment does in Crysis 1. They are not used for the same purpose. The sprint in Crysis 2 is used for the same purpose that the regular sprint in Crysis 1 is used for.

They are very much used for the same purpose, for quickly closing distance on your enemies to use close range attacks or to quickly flee to cover.

The regular sprint in Crysis 1 is just too slow with so little cost in any finite resource (suit energy or stamina) that it is used pretty much all the time I can spare my pinkie. I'd very much like to get away from using the term sprint but in crysis 1 it IS called the "sprint" key. Anyway, Crysis 1, holding down "sprint" key (in any mode except Max Speed) only increases movement speed to a run, a sustainable run.

This is quite common in older games, you'd have a Run and Walk. Either the game would be "always run" and had a walk-key, or "always walk" an you'd have to hold down a key to run. Other games had a check box for "always run" or "always walk" and the "run" or "walk" key used as needed. But these were not sprints, you didn't go much faster and they were sustainable, you could go at any speed as long as you liked.

That's what I feel is the case with Crysis 1. The "sprint" key is properly a "run" key and you'd only enter speed mode to "Sprint" (it gives no other significant benefits) holding the sprint key where it might as well be a latent function, not a mode.

Treblaine:

Now "sprint" semantically means more than "move faster". It is moving as fast as you can at a sacrifice of sustainability, you can only sprint for a few seconds. Not a marathon where you "run" for several hours. In every mode but Max-speed, holding the sprint key you don't move as fast as you can, you move at a sustainable speed and it's dumb that you cannot shoot in that mode.

Now tell me where in that definition it says we're only allowed to go faster when our nanosuits have energy. If you're out of suit energy, it is impossible to go faster than the default movement speed. In Crysis 1 the suit is an auxiliary device meant to take the character beyond normal limits, I suppose being able to sprint indefinitely isn't as realistic, but where actual gameplay is concerned the options are more than Crysis 2 gives you.

The nanosuit energy is a finite resource, though infinitely replenished it quickly runs out (much like a stamina bar). If you are out of stamina it is impossible to sprint. So really sprinting in Max Speed mode is the proper sprint, as fast as you can go for a short period.

The suit allows you to sprint AT ALL with such a huge weight on your legs of an armoured exoskeleton and weapons. If you sprint indefinitely it's not a sprint. The only proper sprint in the suit is in max-speed mode.

That'd be a decent point if it didn't ignore that the Crysis 1 speed sprint is used for different reasons than your normal sprint [i'm so confused which sprint you are talking about, I presume you mean the previous point I debunked], and that speed mode offers other speed related perks than just movement speed while standing [again, unproven or insignificant], and that this speed is available in cloak thus negating the trade-off there, and that the slowdown is a consequence balanced to act as a slowdown relative to the rest of the game and not as reverting to default speed.

The games both have default speeds, relative to the game they exist in. You say that these things are proportional to their games then compared raw speeds without context. The Crysis 2 default speed isn't simply "Crysis 1 in speed mode", it's the default movement speed, built to exist as a default movement speed with certain enemies and environments in mind. And you just made up that bit about Crysis 2 default movement being equal to moving in speed mode.

There is a trade off using Crysis-2 sprint in Cloak, that is the energy consumption goes up geometrically. Same with armour mode.

I didn't "make it up" that crysis 2's default movement speed is the same as the movement speed in Crysis 1 when in Max-Speed mode (or in other modes with "sprint" key held down), I stated that was my genuine subjective assessment of speeds. That and the developers saying that effectively strength + speed mode are always on.

Objective comparisons will be here soon, my PC is in the shop getting a replacement motherboard and I'll get out my FRAPS for a comparison. I'm still trying to think of a way to do an objective comparison, probably something using the field-of-view on my screen as a guide.

Treblaine:

"when something becomes passive it loses the whole purpose for even existing as a separate thing due to being balanced into the rest of the gameplay and losing uniqueness."

Why should it be that it's "purpose" is to be a "separate thing"? This is ridiculous and I'll tell you why it is ridiculous, because you are expecting that a button has to be held down to do something mundane as moving forward at a steady and continuous pace, just to give it "uniqueness" and "balance". What we are talking about here is holding down shift to move at a constant high speed, which though labelled sprint isn't a sprint. A sprint by definition is your fastest run that you cannot sustain for long.

Just hold the W key. Going back to Crysis, it pisses me off hold I was constantly holding down the Shift-key in Crysis 1, and hold I couldn't fire while holding it.

Call it sprint, call it running fast, I don't care. What you call it doesn't change its function. If you want to fire while moving at the speed of a regular sprint (or regular fast run or whatever is important to you that it's called) then switch to speed mode. You lose the additional armor and gain the ability to fire while moving quickly, and if you're in danger then switch back and forth between them as needed.

You also can fire immediately while sprinting, it slows you down to the normal running speed but if you're still holding sprint when you let off the trigger you instantly continue sprinting as usual. Firing in small bursts makes the slowdown minimal. This is more than what Crysis 2 offers, in which trying to fire while sprinting forces you to completely slow before even pulling the gun up to a firing position and you have to release and redo the sprint after you finish firing. So firing in small bursts while sprinting is inefficient and ineffective in Crysis 2 whereas in Crysis 1 the sprint is barely affected.

The options are there for people to use them, and those who utilize those options fare better than those who don't. Giving the option increases the range of possible skill, making it automatic for everyone allows for no chance of getting better.

Yes, what you call it may not change its function but should be named appropriately for it's actual function and limitation.

And please stop saying "just switch to X mode" we've already addressed the many problems with that, the awkwardness of switching modes (double tapping or radial menu) and the sacrifices, how I might want to be in armour or cloak mode. You can't just "switch back and forth when needed", bullets are flying and I need to be in a mode BEFORE the enemy takes action, I can't constantly be reactive, I have to be pro active but can't as I always need to be in a different mode.

Treblaine:

Yeah, I went back to Crysis and weirdly enough I now CAN jump while holding down sprint. The change came after a loading screen to the next level after (where Prophet gets carried off) it suddenly works. Anyway, I tried the double-tap jump as you suggested and I noticed something I suspected in your video. Even though you sprint forward in Speed-mode and can double-click space to perform super jump, the vectors are NOT combined like in Crysis 2. That is to spite speeding forward at the speed of a car your point from jump is no higher than if you were just in strength mode pressing W and then Space key. It's really weird, I seem to change direction in air with forward velocity increasing and turning to vertical velocity. Very weird.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Do you expect to go higher when combining sprint speed and a strength jump?

And I saw you mention to someone else that hitmarkers were new to the series in Crysis 2 and I'd like to point out that when you shoot someone in Crysis 1 your reticule turns red to indicate they were hit.

Yes I expect to go higher AND further! I had huge forward speed then added great force propelling me upward. I could clear the minefield and fence surrounding most bases if I could do this, but if I am able to activate Max-Strength-jump then forward velocity is lost. So I get the height to make it over the fence but I fall short and land in the minefield.

Hit-markers in Crysis 1 singleplayer or multiplayer? Because I'm aiming down sight and shooting enemies in Crysis 1 single player and I'm not getting any kind of marker or indication of bullet impacts other than how the enemy reacts. The only "hitmarkers" I get in Crysis 1 is when MY CHARACTER gets shot a red ring fills around my reticule.

1:25

No HUD indication of any hit.

So in summary.

-The strength-punch in Crysis 2 is not unreasonable due to how established the charge shots are and how manageable a delayed impact is in games where one-hit-kill melees are vital (L4D2)

-Re-emphasise the distinction in jumping in Crysis 1 and Crysis 2, how no significant control is sacrificed at huge benefit in practicality, especially for precedent set by previous computer games.

-Beyond the simplicity of the super jump there is the increased capability, how in crysis 2 you can fully combine the forward and vertical velocity, pointing out how in crysis 1 super jumping even from super sprint cancels the sprint's forward velocity.

-How the "action on release" has precedence that means it is no fundamentally significant impediment to gameplay.

-Sprint in Crysis 2 is a proper sprint and properly accessible with all other features undetectable or insignificant (not worth the time to switch mode). While it is slower, it is not fundamentally different.

-The movement is Crysis 2 is comparable to Crysis 1 but the run/walk distinction familiar in many previous games.

-No hitmarkers in Crysis 1 single player.

After four years, I finally got around to finishing Crysis 1... I abandoned the PC version sometime back when I ran into my save got corrupted (it kept crashing on start-up), so gave the 360 version a spin.

Honestly, I didn't care for it as much as Far Cry and Crysis 2. I thought Far Cry had much more epic (and less confusing) level design. While Crysis 2 had smaller levels, I thought it did a much better job of presenting areas with multiple approaches. And having played Far Cry, Crysis 1's jungle levels gave me a pretty major case of deja vu... and were less interesting to boot. The WWII relics you found lying around Far Cry made it much more interesting to explore, while I found nothing of the sort in Crysis.

Storywise, I thought Crysis 1 had the barest bones of a story, basically a sci-fi Call Of Duty, with an awful genre switch halfway through the game... not unlike the awful genre switch of Far Cry, which substituted open-world levels against reasonably smart soldiers for really dumb monsters in corridors. Crysis 2 handled the genre switch better than either game, even if it simply gave the aliens legs. The alien spaceship levels were jaw-droppingly beautiful right up until the moment I realized what a confusing mess of a level I was in.

So, final analysis. Not really a generic shooter, but the coolness of the nanosuit wasn't awesome enough to offset putting me in a samey environment that was less interesting than the previous jungle environment Crytech gave us in Far Cry. I feel about it much the same way people feel about Crysis 2. I see all the stuff I like, but I think they managed to surgically excise a lot of the stuff I thought Far Cry did really well.

Treblaine:
snip

This thread has become so bloated with your vague "it's close enough to not matter to me and therefore you neither" guessing and your compromising argument. You can theorize, but don't expect to prove anything substantial. It's been made clear multiple times that you don't know what you're talking about, and you constantly avoid my main argument in favor of a similar sounding one. It's disappointing that you won't understand, but this is getting pointless.

(Also I tried Modern Warfare on my roommate's computer and turns out I wasn't wrong. Not only are there separate keybingings for crouch and prone as toggle or hold but the change stance key works exactly like I said where you crouch immediately upon keypress and only move into prone after it's been held, which is different than Crysis 2's jumping/punching/throwing system. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised by now that you just kinda guessed at it and claimed correctness.)

I'll just respond to your summary, and provide my own summary. Otherwise this will never end. Of course you might not believe me, but I feel like someone who has played Crysis 1 and Warhead many times on Delta and the higher custom difficulties and done an ironman playthrough of Crysis 2 may understand the game a little better than someone who can't get past the controls and whose version doesn't even work right. So I'm done proving stuff to you, you can take my word for it or not.

Treblaine:

-The strength-punch in Crysis 2 is not unreasonable due to how established the charge shots are and how manageable a delayed impact is in games where one-hit-kill melees are vital (L4D2)

It is unreasonable to me. I wouldn't complain about this if it wasn't an issue for me and I don't see how it's so vital for you to condemn me for having a problem with this. And in L4D2 you swing immediately on button press.

-In Crysis 1 you could strength punch immediately, any delay is because of the player, and strength punches are very effective on Delta and higher modified difficulties.
-In Crysis 2, the delay is imposed by the game, and strength punches are rarely able to be used effectively on the harder difficulties because of this delay, and there is no way to overcome it no matter how good you are at holding a button.
--This is a limitation on the player's control. An effective strategy has been made less effective by forcing a delay no matter the player's skill.

Treblaine:

-Re-emphasise the distinction in jumping in Crysis 1 and Crysis 2, how no significant control is sacrificed at huge benefit in practicality, especially for precedent set by previous computer games.

Control of how quickly you can jump if you need to react quickly to a situation is sacrificed. That "practicality" is just easier controls (unless you're arguing for the realism behind a sci-fi super suit and ignoring gameplay), which while important, mean nothing to those who don't find Crysis 1 to have difficult controls.

Treblaine:

-Beyond the simplicity of the super jump there is the increased capability, how in crysis 2 you can fully combine the forward and vertical velocity, pointing out how in crysis 1 super jumping even from super sprint cancels the sprint's forward velocity.

This is not true. Speed sprinting can be combined with a strength jump to go further than one would normally strength jump while sprinting regularly. It's not as far as the long jump, but then Crysis 2 has no true long jump anyway (explained later). Either way, I don't really have much of a opinion on this as I can't think of any situations that required the height of a strength jump with the distance of a long jump.

Treblaine:

-How the "action on release" has precedence that means it is no fundamentally significant impediment to gameplay.

Not really sure if this was supposed to make sense, what does the "action of release" have precedence over and how does that mean it doesn't hamper gameplay?

-In Crysis 1 you could strength jump immediately, any delay was because of the player, and it could be used to swiftly move around the battlefield without waiting.
-In Crysis 2 the delay is imposed by the game, and strength jumps cannot be quickly strung together or used immediately if circumstances changed and required an immediate strength jump. And there is no way to overcome this no matter how good you are at holding a button.
--This is a limitation on the player's control. They have less control over when to strength jump because the game forces them to wait.

Treblaine:

-Sprint in Crysis 2 is a proper sprint and properly accessible with all other features undetectable or insignificant (not worth the time to switch mode). While it is slower, it is not fundamentally different.

Not worth the time for you but it's worth it for me. The other features may be insignificant to you but they aren't to me. The distance increase of sprint jumping compared to regular jumping in Crysis 2 is proportional to the distance increase of "running fast" jumping compared to regular jumping in Crysis 1. This is because sprinting in Crysis 2 is only functionally comparable to "running fast" in Crysis 1. The speed sprint long jump takes you many times further, in Crysis 2 it takes you the same extra distance that "running fast" does which is to say it doesn't take you close to even twice as far. The speed sprint is fundamentally different and effective strategies have been lost.

-In Crysis 1 the relationship between the speed of sprinting in speed mode and the enemies/environment allows for quickly darting around in a manner that can confuse enemies. In addition, Crysis 1 has a powerful long jump that can send you hurdling into an enemy or location of your choosing.
-In Crysis 2 the relationship between the speed of sprinting and the enemies/environment doesn't let you manipulate them or your position in the same way and the long jump is pathetic. Sprint is only used to get from one place to another a little faster which is the same function that "running fast" in Crysis 1 performed. Despite this, you don't even have the option to run fast in Crysis 2 without using suit energy and it can't be used at all if your suit energy has diminished.
--This is a limitation of the player's control. The strategies of darting around the battlefield, confusing the enemy AI so that they can't follow your movements, being able to launch yourself to a spot, have been lost. The player is no longer able to use sprinting to that effect because the player doesn't have control over how sprint is used, because in Crysis 2 there is only one sprinting speed, and it isn't comparable to sprinting in speed mode. In addition, all the other features that speed mode offered are now either automated or nonexistent, which allows no decision in the matter.

Treblaine:

-The movement is Crysis 2 is comparable to Crysis 1 but the run/walk distinction familiar in many previous games.

Even if this were true, it means speed mode is automated now. The two games' default speeds and variations thereof are directly comparable because they were designed for their respective games and work in the same way, so Crysis 2's default speed is comparable to Crysis 1's default speed, not it's speed mode. Compare the functionality, not raw static variables without context.

-In Crysis 1 speed mode affected all of your actions. You had the choice of being in speed mode, armor mode, or strength mode. Cloak is a temporary mode, like armor is in Crysis 2. This led to players needing to be able to efficiently and effectively switch between them as needed to use the different powers together.
-In Crysis 2 there is no speed mode, any effects that speed mode would have provided are either nonexistent or automatic. The three modes are visible under the energy meter, two of which are temporary and the other only works in single delayed bursts or contextually. This forces you to almost always exist in some sort of generic mode that has no strategic value besides not being gimped.
--This is a limitation. The player no longer has the option to switch into a style that allows faster movement and actions.

Treblaine:

-No hitmarkers in Crysis 1 single player.

Not really a big deal to me because needing hitmarkers in singleplayer is silly anyway, but your crosshairs do turn red to indicate you've hit something/someone. You know, in case you couldn't tell by the blood spray and your target flinching and crying out.

Hobonicus:
snip

1 - in for the high jump:
really, I seem to be able to leap just as high up landing on my feet onto ledges above my head, either way it's close.

2 - Balanced for lean:
I give a detailed objective example of practicality, you again just give opinion with no explanation could do better than just give your opinion

3 - The future is Nano-something:
again it would be nice to get more than just opinion that you don't like Nanovision when I give an objective explanation.

4 - Vertical Limit:
you mean the non-linear verticality in Crysis 1 like undulating hills? This doesn't have any significant difference on gameplay. You seem to have missed how I mentioned that the openness of Crysis 1 maps is usually wasted or is an obvious route to skip parts of the game.

5 - Finders keepers:
yes I understand the joy of exploration, do you understand the concept of not asking the game to point things out? I'm not arguing semantics, I'm arguing practicalities.

8 - Physically impossible:
A game shouldn't stand on gimmicks, procedurally destructible environment that does have gameplay potential but that wasn't used in Crysis 1. That makes it a gimmick, a trivial flourish, it's not essential to gameplay. The main gamepaly problem is lack of consistency, it main enemy emplacements like guard towers and pillboxes are indestructible while almost superfluous shanty huts can be knocked down.

9 - Pugilist Power?
I ask you to prove fists are more powerful after I provide evidence they are for all gameplay purposed equally powerful... and you jsut reassert the same unsupported claim.
You are trying to have it both ways with your "separates the men from the boys" comment, to be insultingly dismissive when it suits you then irreverent when that suits you. Don't think you can jsut wave this away, you deal with this with an apology as breadline did and endeavour to put it behind you.

10- Tactically underslung:
For goodness sake, if the same principal was applied to other game you'd have a serious problem with Half Life 2 for not having the Satchel Charge like in Half Life 1. It was an under barrel attachment that alerted the enemy but got an easy takedown, as a stealth weapon it wasn't very useful, easy to see how it got lost in the shuffle.

11- Die Hard Mode:
Demanding Harder difficulty is a cop-out non-answer, especially as I have tried it and it applies doubly so there, you can NEVER take chances with low health, the probability of death is so high you must seek cover to heal when it goes low. You clearly haven't given my argument much thought otherwise you wouldn't have given that excuse. Anyway, is't no HUD-health bar a step in the way of realism, a suit is a mechanical device so it makes sense it has a definite readout but the human body is not, though the nano suit can heal it.

12- Prone to disagreement:
I don't care that the feature isn't there. I DO CARE that someone would dislike the game so much because it wasn't there.
There is hardly any tall grass in Crysis 1 (it's bushes and short grass) that reminds me a lot of Metal Gear Solid 3, that's a game where prone was useful with various passive-camouflage uniforms and lots of knee high grasses. And of course, Crysis 1 being in a city there was hardly any grass at all. I miss prone like I miss prone in Half Life 2. Don't create a false dichotomy of comparing Crysis 2 only to Crysis 1.

13 - Suit Modes Suck:
You cannot mix modes in Crysis 1. So statements like "i find the strategy and skill involved in mixing modes fun" is irrelevant to actuality. You can chain them, switch to armour mode right AFTER you get shot (which is pretty useless) You're damn right about the RPG analogy, and you can't suddenly pull the analogy away when it fits with something you don't like to have revealed.

14 - Charge you can Believe in:
If you refuse to see the strategy or tactics in planning a shot then that is your wilful denial of how thinking ahead IS strategy. If you are running up to enemies and only start holding the punch button when tou run into their hit box, wishing it was instant like in Crysis 1, then that ins your prejudice and ignorance getting in your way. You plan ahead, by the SMALLEST AMOUNT

I tried to play it your way, constantly switching suit modes and it is utter bollocks for how it forces me to keep taking my head out of the world to that bloody radial menu or be using keys in contradictory ways. I am used in my muscle memory that S is walk back, except now I have to add on top that double-tap S is armour mode, that's bullshit because I don't actually think "press S key to move back" I think "move back" and my muscle memory goes to S. Now I have to think double step back is armour. Or double crouch is Cloak, this is ridiculous.

Holding keys for magnitude fits with my muscle memory and MOST PEOPLE'S muscle memory of how to play games. If I want to move forward a little bit, I tap the key, and hold it to move forward. If I want to fire at a low single-shot rate, I tap the left it, and hold for full auto. In COD, I want to crouch I tap crouch, if I want to crouch right down so prone, I hold prone. If I want to melee, I tap the it, if I want a super hit, I HOLD IT!

15- Leap of Faith:
The significance of the jumping in Crysis 2 is how the full vertical velocity of super-jump is fully combined with the forward velocity of the sprint to give BOTH length and HEIGHT! Can't do that in crysis 1, you can sprint and jump but is you max-speed sprint and try to activate max-strength jump the forward velocity is reduced to if you were just running forward.
This is a big deal for how many obstacles require distance and height of jump, like a minefield and fence. Like jumping over a car, completely clearing it, maintaining forward momentum.

16 - Vision based on movement
Now RUNNING while keeping eyes on enemy, that makes sense, though you "run" in Crysis 1 by holding down the "sprint" key in any mode except max-speed. Silly, right? It's definitely run as it is sustainable and NOT as fast as you could be moving.
I don't have a problem that I can't shoot while in Max-Speed sprint. Sprint is supposed to be moving as fast as you possibly can for a brief unsustainable period. That means your arms are occupied pistoning up and down so you can't really aim your gun. But the "sprint" in other modes isn't a sprint, to spite how it is labelled, it is NOT as fast as they could possibly move and it is sustainable. It is simply a "run" and really it should be the default speed.

18- Glitchy Crysis? NO!
Come on, you can't seriously claim Crysis never has any glitches or hit detection problems? No stuttering of framerate nor anything? Crysis 2 cleaned this up hugely though. And I understand crysis 1 has "bullet physics".

-Home run
Slide is far more than dolphin dive, it is an offensive move that also allows you to move quickly under a brief low section while retaining speed and momentum

-DIRECTLY Sprinting and/or super jumping WHILE SAYING IN Armour Mode or Cloak IS a new feature.

-clambering ledges definitely adds to gameplay as you can still reach areas where you would fall just short of landing your feet on

-Not being able to sprint sustainably is what DEFINES a sprint! It is the fact that sprint uses up suit energy which makes it a sprint.

-You have about the same cloak time as spy in TF2, that seems quite balanced on the small maps of TF2.

-You say it's a shame not having direct access to modes other than Armour + CLoak, but you CAN directly sprint, which is the only tangible use of Max-Speed mode, and each strength ability is directly accessed.

-Armour mode is far more effective, mainly you can take more than 2 bursts before needing to take cover and is balanced by it's continuous energy consumption and slightly slower movement, so you cannot constantly spam it but use it when in the shit.

-Modules FTW

-Well marking equipment can be pretty useful in many of the larger battles

-Going Rambo with heavy machine guns is great, not necessarily against the CELL troops though but the tougher enemies.

-Come on, hitmarkers of crysis 2 were visible even when aiming down sights and were really useful for long range. Not is Crysis 1 as such.

If we're going to make car comparisons it's more like a stick shift vs flappy-paddle gearbox, you can still directly choose the gear (mode) you want, still with total control only far more directly.

Breadline:
dast snip

I see no problem with posting this much, but isn't it a bit hypocritical for you to object to long posts... in a post that takes up 3 pages in standard format in openoffice writer.So I don't know what you are getting at objecting to length or vaguness, I have not been vague, I have been specific.

What's the problem with compromising? I'm willing to adapt when I'm proven wrong, I am flexible, are YOU! I have done more than theorize and speculate, I've given some objective measures. I haven't avoided your argument, I have meticulously covered EACH of your points.

Your assessment of CoD could easily be coloured by bias, you see it "instantaneous" in CoD but see definite lag in Crysis 2. As fas as I remember it tapping jump in Crysis 2 I "instantaneously" jumped in the air.

It's a shame you are skipping straight to the summary as it is so hypocritical, you are doing precisely what you allege against me:

"you constantly avoid my main argument"

That is PRECISELY what you are doing by only addressing my summary

1.
I give you a REASON to accept it from the precedents set by previous games where it has not been criticised then you just flatly say its "unreasonable". You are misusing the English language. What you mean is "I unreasonably still don't like it".
-Crysis 1 you could not strength punch immediatley, you needed to switch to strength mode
-You dogmatically stick to the "no matter how good you are at holding the button" when I have told you; you start to press the button BEFORE you are right up to them, for example WHILE you are running up to them to super-punch them. I do this in Left 4 Dead 2, I click the melee as I am closing in on them.
-you are being dogmatic saying that a fraction of second delay is not strategic or tactical

2.
Hard sci-fi, not "magical" sci-fi where ANYTHING is possible because, err, science. A super jump reasonably takes a fraction of a second to execute and when would you need to LITERALLY INSTANTANEOUSLY super jump? I mean literally, not very quickly (2/3 of a second) but milliseconds? Is it because it's too complicated for you to lead your actions like you lead your shots and so on.
I'm not the only one to find that Crysis 1 had awkward controls and annoying gameplay mechanics.

3.
No, it is true and you can see it in that video test you posted. You can clearly see when sprinting in max-speed mode you Max-strength jump in (presumably double-tapping space) and much of the forward velocity is suddenly lost. If you had read the body of my argument rather than complaining I don't read the body of your argument and only looking at my summary, then you'd have seen an example of wanting the "hyper-jump" that is full upward thrust and forward thrust, to clear the fence and minefield surrounding most bases.

4.
Why would you quote me WRONG and ask for an explanation

"Action ON release" (what I said) =/= "action OF release" (what you said I said)

Action on release is quite clear, the action (regular jump) starts on release of the key (space key)

This would be obvious if you read more than the summary!

-you can't endlessly offload responsibility on the player when the game is at fault for putting undue load on them. This argument doesn't work as it would also say that thumbstick aiming is equal with using mouse aim and it's just the player who isn't skilled enough.
-When would you need to use strength jump "immediately" with not even a fraction of a second delay, considering the magnitude of the movement it makes sense. If you do need to use strength-jump immediately in Crysis 1 but you are in armour mode you need to use the radial menu or double tap, which is almost the same speed but more prone to error.
-forcing to wait is not less control, it's a reasonable limitation.

5.
How. How is max-speed mode ACTUALLY worth it to you, other than satisfying a placebo effect of "I'm going faster". The point of faster reload is so that you can be shooting again sooner, but if you have to take TIME to switch to one mode (not forgetting the vulnerability in that mode to either being shot or discovered for not being in armour or cloak) and then time to switch back, it's not worth it in any practical sense.

It's hyperbole to call the sprint in Crysis 2 equivalent in speed to the "Sprint De-facto run" of crysis 1:

Only 3 meters/sec different, it's damn near as close, slower but still close. "Sprint as de-facto Running" in Crysis 1 is definitely not 23 miles per hour.

-those extra 3 meters/sec don't make the fundamental different you claim and it's not hard to confuse Crysis AI (either 1 or 2) you can hurtle in both games
-long jumps are not pathetic, especially considering the extra distance you ACTUALLY gain by using super-jump with it
-You cannot chalk up 3ms difference in speed as fundamentally destroying any ability to dart around the battlefield, and you ignore how the rate of consumption is different. Notice how only 1/4 to 1/3 of the suit energy was used in 30m in Crysis 2 yet was completely depleted in Crysis 1. The speeds are totally comparable. 23mph vs 30mph. For reference, Usain Bolt's average speed in his world record shattering sprints was 23mph over 100m, about the same the suit offers WHILE carrying a huge weight and jumping up to 20 feet in the air.

6.
No. Speed is not automated now. It's just "walk key" function is ignored as it is redundant with crouch.

Crysis 2's default speed is comparable to Crysis 1's speed with "sprint" key held down (except in speed mode) not by semantics but by my subjective judgement and from what the developers said about how they designed Crysis 2.

-STOP talking about using suit modes together in crysis 1. It is dishonest as you KNOW that in Crysis 1 it is impossible to combine suit modes. It makes sense
-It has yet to be established that there was any significant effects of Speed-mode in Crysis 1. You could be missing the completely imaginary or insignificant, or longing for a false dichotomy. Do you understand the fallacy of a false-dichotomy? That something is better just because it could be worse.
Yes, that is the point, you ARE supposed to say in this base mode YOU FINALLY GET WHAT THE DEVELOPERS WERE TRYING TO DO! You keep complaining that crysis 2 isn't the same as crysis 1, well the developers changed it! You have FAILED to adapt! You are still stuck in the mindset of Crysis 1 being in one of those 4 modes WELL IT HAS CHANGED! The compromise is DIFFERENT! Now you have a general mode and then make compromises -with combinations - from there.
-Stop this. Please. You DO HAVE THE OPTION to switch into faster movement, sprint.
An don't act like you "no longer" have faster reload in one mode, you didn't in crysis 1 EITHER!

7.
That's a non-answer. If hitarkers are valued in multiplayer, why can't they be valued in single player? Even on the lowest latency connection with most consistent hit detection it is satisfying to know when you have actually made solid hits. Very useful for when you CANNOT directly see your target because they are so far away, obscured by dust or objects or camouflaged by shadow or the background. It's just easier to track a hitmarker popping up than if the enemy is moving from being hit or because it jsut at that moment decided to crouch or suddenly turn.

Treblaine:

Your assessment of CoD could easily be coloured by bias, you see it "instantaneous" in CoD but see definite lag in Crysis 2. As fas as I remember it tapping jump in Crysis 2 I "instantaneously" jumped in the air.

Could be colored by bias? There's no could about it, it literally happens the way I described, the way you said was wrong. When I hit crouch in CoD, the character crouches without waiting. In Crysis 2, you have to wait for the key to be released before the game even starts to jump normally. That's well and good if you don't notice it, but I do.

Treblaine:

1.
I give you a REASON to accept it from the precedents set by previous games where it has not been criticised then you just flatly say its "unreasonable". You are misusing the English language. What you mean is "I unreasonably still don't like it".
-Crysis 1 you could not strength punch immediatley, you needed to switch to strength mode
-You dogmatically stick to the "no matter how good you are at holding the button" when I have told you; you start to press the button BEFORE you are right up to them, for example WHILE you are running up to them to super-punch them. I do this in Left 4 Dead 2, I click the melee as I am closing in on them.
-you are being dogmatic saying that a fraction of second delay is not strategic or tactical

What I mean to say is exactly what I did say: "It is unreasonable to me."
-I have fucking explained this over and over. Over. And. Over. The punch happens at the speed of a normal immediate punch because strength mode activates halfway through the animation.
-This ignores the whole point. There is simply no denying that strength punch has been given a forced delay. In harder difficulties you cannot just charge straight into the enemy preparing a punch. That lost of immediate use is precisely why the ability is gimped.
-Tactical only in a negative sense, no strategic opportunities are opened with this delay, only closed.

Treblaine:

2.
Hard sci-fi, not "magical" sci-fi where ANYTHING is possible because, err, science. A super jump reasonably takes a fraction of a second to execute and when would you need to LITERALLY INSTANTANEOUSLY super jump? I mean literally, not very quickly (2/3 of a second) but milliseconds? Is it because it's too complicated for you to lead your actions like you lead your shots and so on.
I'm not the only one to find that Crysis 1 had awkward controls and annoying gameplay mechanics.

I'm not gonna argue the sci-fi technicalities, you could just as easily say the suit gives you enough power to jump higher using the same amount of effort as you would a normal jump.

But why would I argue this if it wasn't an issue? Of all the other things I could mention in Crysis 2, why would I focus on this if you could sway my mind by saying "It's not really so bad." Of course there are times I need to immediately strength jump. I can't imagine to count all the times in Crysis 1 that an enemy has come around a corner and I've had to immediately strength jump + cloak up to a roof above while they light up the area below me.

Treblaine:

3.
No, it is true and you can see it in that video test you posted. You can clearly see when sprinting in max-speed mode you Max-strength jump in (presumably double-tapping space) and much of the forward velocity is suddenly lost. If you had read the body of my argument rather than complaining I don't read the body of your argument and only looking at my summary, then you'd have seen an example of wanting the "hyper-jump" that is full upward thrust and forward thrust, to clear the fence and minefield surrounding most bases.

Speed is lost, but you do go further than a normal sprinting strength jump. But like I said, Crysis 2 doesn't even have a long jump like Crysis 1, so your speed sprint and strength jump in Crysis 1 still takes you further.

Treblaine:

4.
Why would you quote me WRONG and ask for an explanation

"Action ON release" (what I said) =/= "action OF release" (what you said I said)

Action on release is quite clear, the action (regular jump) starts on release of the key (space key)

This would be obvious if you read more than the summary!

Jesus, sorry I mixed up "on" with "of". So let me rephrase: What does the "action ON release" have precedence over and how does that mean it doesn't hamper gameplay?

Treblaine:

-you can't endlessly offload responsibility on the player when the game is at fault for putting undue load on them. This argument doesn't work as it would also say that thumbstick aiming is equal with using mouse aim and it's just the player who isn't skilled enough.
-When would you need to use strength jump "immediately" with not even a fraction of a second delay, considering the magnitude of the movement it makes sense. If you do need to use strength-jump immediately in Crysis 1 but you are in armour mode you need to use the radial menu or double tap, which is almost the same speed but more prone to error.
-forcing to wait is not less control, it's a reasonable limitation.

-If I could use a thumbstick as well as a mouse with no trouble, I'd argue the same thing. I have no problem with Crysis 1's controls. I think they could be better designed, but I got over any awkwardness and learned to use them well. Though I never thought the game put undue load on me.
-Using the radial menu or double tapping is quicker for me. How has this not sunk in yet?
-What? Forcing you to wait specifically is less control of when you can jump.

Treblaine:

5.
How. How is max-speed mode ACTUALLY worth it to you, other than satisfying a placebo effect of "I'm going faster". The point of faster reload is so that you can be shooting again sooner, but if you have to take TIME to switch to one mode (not forgetting the vulnerability in that mode to either being shot or discovered for not being in armour or cloak) and then time to switch back, it's not worth it in any practical sense.

So everything I mentioned about speed mode so many times before wasn't enough? You move faster for one, not sure why you say it's a placebo effect. Are you starting up a new case about how speed mode is all in my head? You move faster while crouching and prone, which is very useful when under fire behind cover or sneaking without cloak. Sprinting in speed mode let's you move even faster and long jump. Reloading some weapons is quicker, prepping explosives and missile launchers is quicker, switching weapons in case you run dry is quicker. All these things are very useful.

You say "it's not worth it in any practical sense" but then you haven't really played the game much have you? See, I have, and speed mode is worth it to me. Hell I'd rather they'd removed armor mode.

And let's make this clear: If I can switch modes faster than it takes to even start a strength jump in Crysis 2 then you need to stop using "it takes too much time to switch modes" as an arguing to say my perspective is wrong.

Treblaine:

It's hyperbole to call the sprint in Crysis 2 equivalent in speed to the "Sprint De-facto run" of crysis 1:

...

Only 3 meters/sec different, it's damn near as close, slower but still close. "Sprint as de-facto Running" in Crysis 1 is definitely not 23 miles per hour.

-those extra 3 meters/sec don't make the fundamental different you claim and it's not hard to confuse Crysis AI (either 1 or 2) you can hurtle in both games
-long jumps are not pathetic, especially considering the extra distance you ACTUALLY gain by using super-jump with it
-You cannot chalk up 3ms difference in speed as fundamentally destroying any ability to dart around the battlefield, and you ignore how the rate of consumption is different. Notice how only 1/4 to 1/3 of the suit energy was used in 30m in Crysis 2 yet was completely depleted in Crysis 1. The speeds are totally comparable. 23mph vs 30mph. For reference, Usain Bolt's average speed in his world record shattering sprints was 23mph over 100m, about the same the suit offers WHILE carrying a huge weight and jumping up to 20 feet in the air.

You say that we should understand the games proportionally, then you don't. I've said that you can't use the same strategies you could in Crysis 1, but then you haven't really played Crysis 1 much so you wouldn't know, and the bit that you have is apparently specifically broken to fuck with me. So you choose not to believe me.

-Apparently those extra 3 meters (seriously? you don't think 3 meters/sec is significant?) do make a difference. And no you can't hurtle (long jump?) in Crysis 2. I've explained how the Crysis 2 "long jump" is only similar to the Crysis 1 running fast jump, I'm assuming your Crysis 2 is working well enough to test that.
-You should try actually seeing what a long jump is in Crysis 1. Some long jumps are sprinkled throughout but there's a nice one at about the 10:18 mark. Also check out 10:00 for a reason to use strength punch immediately.

-I guess I can just chalk it up to a 3m/s difference, or maybe it's the speedy long jump that can be used with not even a tenth of your energy being drained by speed sprint, or maybe the enemies' speeds are proportionally different. Whatever the reasons, strategies that were viable in Crysis 1 with speed sprinting don't work as well anymore. You can through out guesses, but this is what I've found having played both extensively.

Treblaine:

6.
No. Speed is not automated now. It's just "walk key" function is ignored as it is redundant with crouch.

Crysis 2's default speed is comparable to Crysis 1's speed with "sprint" key held down (except in speed mode) not by semantics but by my subjective judgement and from what the developers said about how they designed Crysis 2.

-STOP talking about using suit modes together in crysis 1. It is dishonest as you KNOW that in Crysis 1 it is impossible to combine suit modes. It makes sense
-It has yet to be established that there was any significant effects of Speed-mode in Crysis 1. You could be missing the completely imaginary or insignificant, or longing for a false dichotomy. Do you understand the fallacy of a false-dichotomy? That something is better just because it could be worse.
Yes, that is the point, you ARE supposed to say in this base mode YOU FINALLY GET WHAT THE DEVELOPERS WERE TRYING TO DO! You keep complaining that crysis 2 isn't the same as crysis 1, well the developers changed it! You have FAILED to adapt! You are still stuck in the mindset of Crysis 1 being in one of those 4 modes WELL IT HAS CHANGED! The compromise is DIFFERENT! Now you have a general mode and then make compromises -with combinations - from there.
-Stop this. Please. You DO HAVE THE OPTION to switch into faster movement, sprint.
An don't act like you "no longer" have faster reload in one mode, you didn't in crysis 1 EITHER!

-Again, don't tell me to stop using an argument on something that I have experience with and you don't. You may not be able to literally use suit powers on top of each other, but you can use them together, check that video I posted.
-Then don't believe me, I don't care.
-You've missed the point. Again. I'm not re-explaining it. Again. Go ahead and call this a cop-out answer. Again. It's not worth clarifying if it'll just fly over your head. Again.

Don't say I failed to adapt. I've done an ironman run of Crysis 2, I'm not bad at it. Understanding how and why the developers altered it doesn't change my feelings about the alteration. You seem to think my thoughts on the matter are some horrible abomination that needs purging. Just stop if this is gonna cause you to freak out.

Treblaine:

7.
That's a non-answer. If hitarkers are valued in multiplayer, why can't they be valued in single player? Even on the lowest latency connection with most consistent hit detection it is satisfying to know when you have actually made solid hits. Very useful for when you CANNOT directly see your target because they are so far away, obscured by dust or objects or camouflaged by shadow or the background. It's just easier to track a hitmarker popping up than if the enemy is moving from being hit or because it jsut at that moment decided to crouch or suddenly turn.

Hitmarkers are to give feedback due to lag compensation issues and singleplayer doesn't have lag. You can have your hitmarkers in singleplayer, I don't give a shit, I was just correcting something you said to someone else. I think they hurt immersion, but whatever. But how the fuck is literally telling you exactly how they work (your crosshairs turn red when you hit something) a "non-answer"? I'm gonna start using that for points you make now.

Probably because it is. Its a good game, it was fun to play, but it is a generic shooter. So is seriuos sam, but that doesnt make it bad now does it.

I liked both games equally. Having a nanosuit and being able to troll people in multiplayer and the Ai in singleplayer never gets old. Then if you decided not to go stealth, you can hulk up and kill people with an SUV. Good times

Treblaine:
snip

High jump - "close" isn't equal, but okay.

Lean - you gave me a reason why you find it awkward, not an objective reason as to why it's 'equally as awkward' as C2's version. i don't have those issues you do, i like the Q/E lean. so cool that you find it equally hard to use but i don't and the lean function in C2 is too inconsistent and picky to use properly.

Nanovision - why do you want more than an opinion? if we weren't allowing opinions you'd have been laughed out of this thread a long time ago. I don't like nanovision, i explained why.

linear verticality - and YOU seem to have missed a few great levels in C1.

Tactical Visor shortcuts - 'do you understand the concept of not asking the game to point things out' what do you mean by that because it sounds like you just agreed with me. i don't want the game to point things out but it sticks big yellow signs in my face, pointing things out.

Physics - i don't get it, you tout DX11 as a great new feature in C2 then say anythign that isn't immediately accessible to gameplay is a pointless gimmick? when did i say C1 stood on it's destruction? guard towers ARE destructible. i'd much rather have some destruction than all or nothing :/

fists - haha what? apologize for a harmless idiom? are you serious? i never meant any insult and you've blamed me for your overreaction. watch me wave it away, *wave*. i don't have the game availabel atm so i can't check but i do know fists do hit with more force and you move faster and can melee silently. and i just like having the option to use my fists.

tactical attachment - why do you meantion HL2? this is about Crysis... and this isn't some moral cause i have going like you seem to think, I just liked the tactical attachment in C1. and it IS stealthy.

health - idk what to say then. health regenerates very slowly in the harder difficulties so when you get hit you can't just hide and wait a few seconds. i prefer that system, it makes losing health a bigger consequence.

prone - why are you putting words in my mouth? i said I LOVED C2. I said it's the reason why i even checked out C1 in the first place. how can you just claim that i said differently like that, do you realize how damaging it is to discussion when you do that? and C1 had TONS of grass that prone could hide in, idk how you can say otherwise. and why would i compare C2 to other unrelated games? do you think all fps are the same with the same styles and mechanics and designs, that any concept can be applied to all of them? do you actually PLAY other games or just think about them.

suit modes - what are you talking about 'pull the analogy away when it fits with something you don't like to have revealed'? i said you went way too far into the rpg analogy because you seemed to assume that i just wanted standard rpg elements like the modules. chain/mix call it whatever, i find CHAINING them fun. happy? it's spectacular that you think you can call my opinion 'irrelevant to actuality'. i've never met someone so arrogant to straight up tell me that the fun i'm having is wrong.

Charging strength abilities - I'm not an idiot, i don't start charging a punch when i run into their hitboxes, remember i played C2 before C1. but the super strength stuff happens right away in C1, how can YOU ignore the strategy in that? strategy doesn't only exist by holding the player back. i didn't really mind having to hold the button for a stronger attack but once I got C1 i liked that method better because it let's me play without those constraints. it's too bad that you have trouble with the C1 controls, i did at first too.

jumping - you know that C2 doesn't have a long jump righT? so the distance and height in C1 is still greater.

sprinting in any direction - what are you talking about? the sprint in all other modes is a sprint where the character moves as fast as he's able without the suit giving him a boost which is where speed mode come in. nobody cares if you think it's unrealistic or labeled wrong.

Glitches? - well I never had any hit detection problems in either game. it doesn't seem unreasonable to not trust your version based on this thread.

slide - yeah that aspect of slide is neat. You said you don't play multiplayer though, but I do and it's rarely used as anything more than your standard dolphin dive there.

sprint/jump in armor mode - this seems like a picky way to get an automatic win or something. yeh you can't speed sprint in armor mode, though you can normal sprint. and it takes less than a second to strenght jump and switch back to armor, the time is pretty negligible...

clambering ledges - but like i said, it's not always consistent and sometimes gets in the way of jumps that would have landed just fine anyway. and the C2 levels were designed to put things high enough to force climbing up ledges instead of just letting us be able to jump high enough so it's not like they added clambering to save us from all those ledges they accidentally stuck too high.

more sprint business - you really like semantics with sprint don't you. I've always noticed that people argue semantics when they've got nothing else to fall back on. plenty of games have an unlimited sprint, it's a gameplay thing, call it whatever you want if it bothers you.

cloak - this isn't TF2...

direct access - I enjoy having modes more. and i don't get why you say speed mode only increases sprint? that's way wrong.

hitmarkers - i really only care about them in multiplayer, in singleplayer they just get in my way. that's one reason (of many) why i hated Homefront. totally took me out of the game when some multiplayer-centric feature popped up like i was an idiot who couldn't figure out myself if i'd hit someone.

And nope, i'm sticking by my manual/auto transmission analogy.

Breadline:
<--- click for original post

Emphasis is no way of refuting bias. You could equally say the regular jump in crysis 2(non-super) is also instantaneous and without any bias. Reasonably the delay is insignificant, tap the space bar on your keyboard right now and notice how quick it resets, how it's too quick for you to even perceive.

Number 1

Unreasonable is the negative of with reason, without rational basis. It's not a subjective assessment as you use it. The word you are looking for is "intolerable". You are intolerant of the controls/mechanics of Crysis 2, which may be with or without reason. In this case, intolerance without reasons.

-Ah, now it's changed from "immediately" or "instantaneously" to the speed of the normal punch, admitting some lag. And of course you need to double click quick enough to beat the punch. But I'll give you this one, it might be slightly better to be able to double tap melee than to hold it down. But not at the cost of disabling suit modes.
There is still the matter of intuitiveness, a double tap doesn't fit with a
-I am not denying that there is a delay with delivering such a powerful punch, I am disputing the limitation of this.
"you cannot just charge straight into the enemy preparing a punch."
Why not? Why can you not prepare? Why are you willing to put in the significant time training your muscle memory to use radial menu but not the moderate effort learn to time your hits?
-So you admit is is tactical, but negative. So you are conceding to reason yet still rejecting by your subjective assessment. You are again dogmatically ignoring strategic options in how you can do this punch without disengaging Maximum Armour mode, that IS an extra strategic option.

Number 2
I think it is an issue not with the game but with your prejudice. You have gotten too comfortable with Crysis 2 controls and unreasonably reject the changes and fundamentally negative rather than against your subjective personal tastes.

"come around a corner and I've had to immediately strength jump + cloak up to a roof above while they light up the area below me."

The thing here is you do NOT have to super-jump instantaneously there, a fraction-second delay is not going to ruin that or even significantly affect it. And the best part of this example is how in Crysis 2 you can Cloak And then super-jump up WHILE REMAINING CLOAKED so they have no idea you even went up onto the roof! I would appear you just disappear while you go in least expected direction.

Number 3

This defies all the evidence. Evidence seen with how the height of super-jump in crysis 2 and how it is combined with sprint of Crysis 2 that is a mere 23% slower than the Max-speed-sprint in Crysis 1. The evidence of how forward velocity is lost, in the video you recorded and posted.

What you unreasonably refuse to address is how the LENGTH of the sprint jump and the HEIGHT of the super-jump add to an extremely dramatic and useful jump:

Number 4

-You don't seem to realise how similar your argument is to those console gamers who insist they are just as good with thumbstick as mouse-aim, they use the same excuses of blaming "player skill" and dismissing intuitiveness or aspects of ergonomics or muscle memory
-So you claim, that you can use Crysis 1 suit shortcuts quicker,
-less control is less things you can influence. Like not having a jump button, or having jump be like in Zelda where you just run towards and edge to auto-jump. You can still jump, you can still super-jump, just with more intuitive controls. You did read the part about muscle memory and "hold for magnitude"?

Number 5
Mentioned isn't enough when the speed benefit is so slight it may not even exist.
The faster default movement in Speed-Mode is null for how it's near as identical to movement speed in every other mode when "sprint" (run) key is held down, which can be held and used indefinitely. And that speed is closer to the base movement speed in Crysis 2 than the slowest speed in Crysis 1.
The reload speed and weapon switch speed is insignificantly quicker, not worth the time of switching modes and sacrificing the benefits of Cloak or Armour mode.

I think you are too committed and ingrained into crysis 1 to accept any differences. You are enamoured with crysis 1 and ideologically committed to it beyond objective reason.

I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm trying to get you to see that your issues don't come from fundamental failure with the game, but that the problem is with your refusal to accept the beneficial change due to, in part, your very particular personal tastes. I mean you want the armour mode in Crysis 1 removed!

Number 5.1

You are getting muddled again. That video shows how close Crysis 2 SPRINT is to the fastest sprint in Crysis 1. Not as fast, but only 23% slower still as fast as the fastest human in recorded history.

This shows, indirectly, how Crysis-2-sprint is most definitely not close to the same speed as when the "sprint-key" is held down in Armour/Strength/Cloak mode nor the movement-speed in Max-Speed mode but is very close to the fastest sprint of Crysis 1.

-Of course 23% difference is a significant difference but it is not a FUNDAMENTAL difference. I never argued it wasn't significant, and if I did it was in error and I retract it. I disputed your assertion that it was a fundamental difference. You have explained similarity to Crysis 1, unconvincingly as it makes inaccurate assertions as I have found in MY testing and corroborated with the video demonstration of speed and the very video of testing you supplied.
-What makes you think you cannot perform the same distance jumps in Crysis 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgzJZw4XaNQ) I remember doing the same and here are some. As for that super punch at 10:00, the enemy sneaked up on him while he had his head buried in the radial-menu, and even with that time the 0.7 sec charge time was about the time it took from the enemy appearing on screen and him actually being hit.
-What do you mean "whatever the reason". YOU made the claim of FUNDAMENTAL failure and you don't have a reason?!?! The very definition of unreasonable.
This is the whole point of what I've been saying, your opinions are true, but they are unreasonable. There is no reason to conclude they aren't coloured by your prejudice.

Number 6

-I'm telling you to not use arguments based on false claims such as simultaneous use of modes in Crysis 1. To excuse yourself for your claims of experience is an Argument from Authority Fallacy.
-You should care, as I don't believe out of blind denial. I don't believe you because I HAVE looked and your claims have not materialised and you have yet to provide any proof!
-I have kept this reasonable, I gave a counter with reason, you can't throw up your arms and say "you've missed the point" and have that be anything other than a cop-out, patronising me that I just don't understand yet you won't actually explain it.

I does not follow for you to claim:
"The player no longer has the option to switch into a style that allows faster movement and actions."
After it has been established:
+at any moment you can sprint in Crysis 2 very fast (only 23% slower than in Crysis 1)
+Switching off Max Armour in Crysis 2 removes the speed penalty
+actions like reloading are not significantly quicker in Speed mode of Crysis 1
+base movement speed in C1 speed mode is indistinguishable from simply holding down shift key

Claims of doing an Ironman of Crysis 2 is not a rational argument of the game as it is, it is an argument from authority. It's not giving a reasons, it's another "I conclude because I'd know".

I am calm, I don't angry type. I'm working this out slowly, carefully and with reason for every point. You seem to be reacting rashly and emphatically rather than rationally.

Number 7

It's a non answer because the main time you'd need hitmarkers rather than HUD crosshair flashing is when you are aiming at long distance, using iron sights, not the HUD crosshairs.
It doesn't answer for the lack of hitmarkers being consistent, seen even when aiming down sights.

What you fail to grasp is the REASON I use the term "non-answer" is you don't answer the challenge. Then you make an Argument from Incredulity acting like this gives you license to abuse the reasonable use of "non-answer" inappropriately. That would be immature.

I'm sorry if you've gotten mad by this, but I have to

Edit: this is Breadline by the way, I was on my roommate's computer to test Crysis 1 and forgot to change logins.

Treblaine:

Emphasis is no way of refuting bias. You could equally say the regular jump in crysis 2(non-super) is also instantaneous and without any bias. Reasonably the delay is insignificant, tap the space bar on your keyboard right now and notice how quick it resets, how it's too quick for you to even perceive.

I find the delay imposed from forcing jump on key release compared to jump on key press a problem, hence why I complain. It's ridiculous that you've moved into denying all my points by saying I'm biased then stick by that "it's insignificant" argument as if that's any more objectively true. I can perceive the difference just fine, thank you. But then I'm a super human who can perform a 12-step process without fail, so maybe I have an advantage there.

Treblaine:

Unreasonable is the negative of with reason, without rational basis. It's not a subjective assessment as you use it. The word you are looking for is "intolerable". You are intolerant of the controls/mechanics of Crysis 2, which may be with or without reason. In this case, intolerance without reasons.

Oh boy, more semantics. I AM BESTED BY YOUR WIT.

Treblaine:

"come around a corner and I've had to immediately strength jump + cloak up to a roof above while they light up the area below me."

The thing here is you do NOT have to super-jump instantaneously there, a fraction-second delay is not going to ruin that or even significantly affect it. And the best part of this example is how in Crysis 2 you can Cloak And then super-jump up WHILE REMAINING CLOAKED so they have no idea you even went up onto the roof! I would appear you just disappear while you go in least expected direction.

...That fraction second of delay will get you killed on difficulties where a few shots will tear you to pieces. Getting killed is bad. Even if you cloak immediately, enemies start firing where they last saw you cloak, which would be the exact spot you're standing while you charge up your strength jump. In Crysis 1 you could hit strength jump and immediately switch to cloak, it's all over that last video I posted.

Treblaine:

This defies all the evidence. Evidence seen with how the height of super-jump in crysis 2 and how it is combined with sprint of Crysis 2 that is a mere 23% slower than the Max-speed-sprint in Crysis 1. The evidence of how forward velocity is lost, in the video you recorded and posted.

Important: You keep ignoring this (even from other posters) so I want you to focus on the next few sentences.

The distance increase of sprint jumping in Crysis 2 is the same as the distance increase when "running fast" jumping in Crysis 1. Therefore, when you super jump in Crysis 2 and combine that upward velocity with the forward velocity of sprinting, it is comparable in Crysis 1 to strength jumping and combining that upward velocity with the forward velocity of the running fast jump. This of course, is totally doable in both games.

It is important to understand that Crysis 2 has no long jump ability like there exists in Crysis 1.

Treblaine:

What you unreasonably refuse to address is how the LENGTH of the sprint jump and the HEIGHT of the super-jump add to an extremely dramatic and useful jump:

[hilariously boring video of generic jumping]

Do you... seriously expect to make a point with such a lame video? It's just him doing strength jumps like you could in Crysis 1 except constantly falling short and slowing down in places that he wouldn't have in Crysis 1. Hell, he even runs into the wall while waiting for the super jump to charge.

And as I said, the length of Crysis 2's sprint jump is the length of Crysis 1's running fast jump, which is easily combined with a strength jump.

Treblaine:

-You don't seem to realise how similar your argument is to those console gamers who insist they are just as good with thumbstick as mouse-aim, they use the same excuses of blaming "player skill" and dismissing intuitiveness or aspects of ergonomics or muscle memory
-So you claim, that you can use Crysis 1 suit shortcuts quicker,
-less control is less things you can influence. Like not having a jump button, or having jump be like in Zelda where you just run towards and edge to auto-jump. You can still jump, you can still super-jump, just with more intuitive controls. You did read the part about muscle memory and "hold for magnitude"?

If a console gamer can use a thumbstick with the skill of someone who's good with a mouse then more power to them. And my argument looks like this: "You can still jump, you can still super-jump, just with less control of exactly when." That's also a perfectly valid sentence, no matter how much it pains you. Don't care what your ergonomically correct argument is when it doesn't apply to me, as I've said this is from the perspective of someone who has no issue with Crysis 1's controls. I actually find Crysis 2 has somewhat less intuitive controls because my character seems to just space out for a bit before responding when I hit certain buttons.

Treblaine:

I think you are too committed and ingrained into crysis 1 to accept any differences. You are enamoured with crysis 1 and ideologically committed to it beyond objective reason.

I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm trying to get you to see that your issues don't come from fundamental failure with the game, but that the problem is with your refusal to accept the beneficial change due to, in part, your very particular personal tastes. I mean you want the armour mode in Crysis 1 removed!

Or you know there's the other option where I in fact do notice a difference because I've actually played the game more than I've incorrectly theorized about it. But then you seem too committed to proving me wrong to accept that "it's close enough to be insignificant to me" isn't an objective argument.

And it's astounding that you can read "Hell I'd rather they'd removed armor mode" when referring to speed mode's removal and then say "you want the armour mode in Crysis 1 removed!" You do understand how wrong that is right? How can I take you seriously when you try to manipulate things like this?

Treblaine:

-Of course 23% difference is a significant difference but it is not a FUNDAMENTAL difference. I never argued it wasn't significant, and if I did it was in error and I retract it. I disputed your assertion that it was a fundamental difference. You have explained similarity to Crysis 1, unconvincingly as it makes inaccurate assertions as I have found in MY testing and corroborated with the video demonstration of speed and the very video of testing you supplied.
-What makes you think you cannot perform the same distance jumps in Crysis 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgzJZw4XaNQ) I remember doing the same and here are some. As for that super punch at 10:00, the enemy sneaked up on him while he had his head buried in the radial-menu, and even with that time the 0.7 sec charge time was about the time it took from the enemy appearing on screen and him actually being hit.
-What do you mean "whatever the reason". YOU made the claim of FUNDAMENTAL failure and you don't have a reason?!?! The very definition of unreasonable.
This is the whole point of what I've been saying, your opinions are true, but they are unreasonable. There is no reason to conclude they aren't coloured by your prejudice.

That sad video makes a return and continues to clumsily support me. And do you commonly start holding your melee button expecting an enemy to come around the corner at the exact instant required for the charge up to hit him? You keep speaking of inherent delays in games and people then assert that he could have immediately started the super punch because the clip you viewed without pressure had a .7 delay between the enemy appearing and him being punched. If that was Crysis 2 it would have been a 1.4 second delay. And "his head buried in the radial-menu"? It was done by the time the enemy came on screen.

And are you seriously quoting "Whatever the reason" when I gave three reasons in the sentence before? Did you really think I wouldn't notice such a blatant display of ignoring context to sound more persuasive?

Treblaine:

-I'm telling you to not use arguments based on false claims such as simultaneous use of modes in Crysis 1. To excuse yourself for your claims of experience is an Argument from Authority Fallacy.
-You should care, as I don't believe out of blind denial. I don't believe you because I HAVE looked and your claims have not materialised and you have yet to provide any proof!
-I have kept this reasonable, I gave a counter with reason, you can't throw up your arms and say "you've missed the point" and have that be anything other than a cop-out, patronising me that I just don't understand yet you won't actually explain it.

You missed the point. You just don't understand. I've played the game more than you. If you refuse to understand what I'm saying, if you refuse to see all the proof I've given and is readily available, then I'm not gonna be suckered in to your attempts to walk me in circles.

Treblaine:

I does not follow for you to claim:
"The player no longer has the option to switch into a style that allows faster movement and actions."
After it has been established:
+at any moment you can sprint in Crysis 2 very fast (only 23% slower than in Crysis 1)
+Switching off Max Armour in Crysis 2 removes the speed penalty
+actions like reloading are not significantly quicker in Speed mode of Crysis 1
+base movement speed in C1 speed mode is indistinguishable from simply holding down shift key

-This hasn't "been established". In fact, that's been established as false by anyone who understands that you cannot sprint when your energy is depleted.
-Good that you're aware of this! Now tell me how many strategic doors being able to temporarily gimp your movement opens up, and how all those new tactics make up for the ones lost from Crysis 1.
-This hasn't "been established". You have yet to figure out that you feeling something is insignificant does not establish that as a fact.
-It's only indistinguishable when you're performing no action while moving in the upright stance. Is that how you win all your battles? Just by moving at the enemy?

Treblaine:

Claims of doing an Ironman of Crysis 2 is not a rational argument of the game as it is, it is an argument from authority. It's not giving a reasons, it's another "I conclude because I'd know".

I've given my reasons, they're all over the thread. I said that in response to you suggesting that I'm arguing from a position of frustrated ignorance. I said it to back up the validity of my experience because you suggested I didn't understand how or why these changes were made, and anyone can infer that someone who's played enough Crysis 2 to do a no deaths playthrough probably isn't someone who failed to adapt to the change.

Treblaine:

I am calm, I don't angry type. I'm working this out slowly, carefully and with reason for every point. You seem to be reacting rashly and emphatically rather than rationally.

Caps lock sentences with exclamation marks in an argument must work differently in your culture then.

Treblaine:

It's a non answer because the main time you'd need hitmarkers rather than HUD crosshair flashing is when you are aiming at long distance, using iron sights, not the HUD crosshairs.
It doesn't answer for the lack of hitmarkers being consistent, seen even when aiming down sights.

What you fail to grasp is the REASON I use the term "non-answer" is you don't answer the challenge. Then you make an Argument from Incredulity acting like this gives you license to abuse the reasonable use of "non-answer" inappropriately. That would be immature.

You don't know what "non-answer" means then. I gave you a correct and informational answer, you just didn't like it because it didn't meet the extra requirements that you hadn't yet specified. How immature of me.

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