Anita Sarkeesian + Hitman Absolution = Epic Fail

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SUPA FRANKY:

Ah, so it's perfectly rational and normal to murder a women in a dress or a man in a suit, but I should avoid doing so when they are undressed.

that means I can murder some African and Hawaiin tribes in the droves!

Really, if you can't handle the violence, why not just stick to rated T or E games? I don't really see the difference between murdering people who have their top either on or off. Murdering people is wrong regardless, but its a video game lol.

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards to the implications of sexulised violence.

SUPA FRANKY:
Well, you can really make anything seem like an object if you try hard enough. Te shopkeepers in games like Skyrim or Resident Evil have no other purpose but to sell you loot. The enemies you murder in droves have no other purpose but being hacked into pieces for slaughter.

Even if you could argue that a male storekeeper is just an object for the player to interact with, is that the only, or at least predominant, way in which players interact with non-enemy male NPCs?

Windknight:

SUPA FRANKY:

Ah, so it's perfectly rational and normal to murder a women in a dress or a man in a suit, but I should avoid doing so when they are undressed.

that means I can murder some African and Hawaiin tribes in the droves!

Really, if you can't handle the violence, why not just stick to rated T or E games? I don't really see the difference between murdering people who have their top either on or off. Murdering people is wrong regardless, but its a video game lol.

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards tot he implications of sexulaised violence.

Implications? Any ADULT or kid with half a brain knows you can't do the stuff you do in games in real life.

Just stick to rated T or E games if you can't handle it. No one says you have to like it, but saying it should exist is just lol.

MysticSlayer:

SUPA FRANKY:
Well, you can really make anything seem like an object if you try hard enough. Te shopkeepers in games like Skyrim or Resident Evil have no other purpose but to sell you loot. The enemies you murder in droves have no other purpose but being hacked into pieces for slaughter.

Even if you could argue that a male storekeeper is just an object for the player to interact with, is that the only, or at least predominant, way in which players interact with non-enemy male NPCs?

Preety much yea, alot of them have to look for you for guidance in order to complete quest and usually have no initiative to just do it themselves. Their bodies tend to be left in the street as if they are trash ( at least on PC)

You can make anything seem like an object if you try hard enough.

Windknight:

NuclearKangaroo:

so if this wasnt a stripper club, if instead this was, a pool or a beach, where theres a lot of women in bikinis, i wouldnt be allowed to kill them because thatd be sexualized violence? if i found a women attractive in the game, even if say, she is the villain, im not allowed to kill her because its sexualized violence?, if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

see how that logic doesnt work?

I see how your 'logic' doesn't work. I have to ask, why would you want to gun down a pool or beachs worth of sunbathers? And yes, I personally would find that kind of violence just as disturbing and sexualised as violence against sex workers.

Also, is this villainess, and the security guards going around dressed in a sexualised manner and presented as sex objects? Please show me these sex object security guards.

because i can, its a game, theres no real life consequences, so i can do all kinds of crazy stuff, and i choose to kill people on a beach

if you are so concerned about what people are wearing the moment they are killed, i say your priorities was horribly misplaced

for the sake of this argument i know find security guard inconceivably arousing, since everyone has different concepts of what is sexy and what not, i now find the uniforms and obliviousness hot as fuck, now what? is it "sexualized" violence if i kill them?

also for the sake of this argument, lets say i have to for some reason kill this person in a game

image

she is literally the most beautiful women ive ever seen in my entire life, im not even joking here, i fucking adore her, but because of reasons, she is an ingame character and she did some bad stuff and i have to kill her (granted is gonna be hard) is that sexualized violence? if i find someone attrative, all violence agaisnt that person is sexualized?

Windknight:

plus adding to that point, sex workers, they provide sexual services, they dress in arousing ways, its their job, your argument pretty much puts them in a different level from everyone else in the game because of the nature of their work, that is discrimination

explain to me how the job of a sex worker is not inherently sexualized, if you cant do that your argument is completely empty

Does the fact their job makes them sexualised magically make violence against them not sexualised? Does that somehow make it alright?

im not arguing violence agaisnt them isnt "sexualized" im in fact arguing violence agaisnt them HAS be "sexualized", by imposing your arbitrary rule agaisnt "sexualized" violence, you marginalize sex workers, simply because of their job

SUPA FRANKY:

Windknight:

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards tot he implications of sexulaised violence.

Implications? Any ADULT or kid with half a brain knows you can't do the stuff you do in games in real life.

Just stick to rated T or E games if you can't handle it. No one says you have to like it, but saying it should exist is just lol.

I'm saying it should put a lot more care and thought into it before it does it, and be aware of ways it may make others feel or perhaps influence attitudes and views. not just stick it in to be 'gritty' and 'adult'. I mean, the 90's comic market embraced 'gritty' and 'adult' in pretty much the same way, and that all went pair shaped.

Also, you are so cutesy trying to question whether I can handle M games or not. Just adorable. Are you going to call me chicken next, and make the noise with your mouth?

Windknight:

SUPA FRANKY:

Windknight:

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards tot he implications of sexulaised violence.

Implications? Any ADULT or kid with half a brain knows you can't do the stuff you do in games in real life.

Just stick to rated T or E games if you can't handle it. No one says you have to like it, but saying it should exist is just lol.

I'm saying it should put a lot more care and thought into it before it does it, and be aware of ways it may make others feel or perhaps influence attitudes and views. not just stick it in to be 'gritty' and 'adult'. I mean, the 90's comic market embraced 'gritty' and 'adult' in pretty much the same way, and that all went pair shaped.

Also, you are so cutesy trying to question whether I can handle M games or not. Just adorable. Are you going to call me chicken next, and make the noise with your mouth?

Take care in how people are murdered. Isn't that a bit morbid.

I'm questioning whether you can handle because a well adjusted adult or child should know that the things you do in games AREN'T okay lol. You can't run people over with your car, regardless of what they are wearing. You can't hack people apart or blow their brains out, regardless of what they are wearing. But its a video game, that is consequence free.

If you can't handle that the people in video games are not real, and are not trying to get the player to commit such actions in real life, then just stick to rated T or E games, where such violence or "implications" are heavily diluted.

lol

Gethsemani:
the problem is that we never see these strippers and prostitutes as anything but sex objects. They are literally just there to be titillation for the player. You could change any of the missions in any of the Hitman-games were strippers appear to a location without strippers and the narrative wouldn't change. That, right there, is an indication that they serve no purpose other than to titillate and provide fanservice.

I don't think you'd be able to change the location without changing the narrative.

You'd have to rebrand 47's target as something other than a strip club owner. Or at the very least, have the mission take place at his house or somewhere away from his place of business.

Alternatively, and without changing the location, have 47 break into a closed strip club to kill the owner. And have no strippers present there at the time.

But I don't necessarily like this idea. Background decoration does serve a purpose, crass as it may sound.
Be it flower planter pots, or NPCs who serve no purpose other than to be gawked at and/or killed; by removing them, you're removing a piece of background decoration, and the game becomes more empty and less immersive as a result.

NuclearKangaroo:

image

she is literally the most beautiful women ive ever seen in my entire life, im not even joking here, i fucking adore her, but because of reasons, she is an ingame character and she did some bad stuff and i have to kill her (granted is gonna be hard) is that sexualized violence? if i find someone attrative, all violence agaisnt that person is sexualized?

Your not exactly helping your argument by posting a character who's outfit is a string bikini top and hot pants. Pretty much the definition of a sexualised outfit.

Gethsemani:

NuclearKangaroo:

and many CHOOSE to be sex workers, stop putting people in the same bag, i bet many sex workers find attitudes like yours condescending

they are sex workers, arguing they look sexualized is beyond absurd, sex workers, they provide sexual services, the very nature of their work is sexualized, what the hell do you expect?

and lets not forged the fact that YOU ARE TRYING TO KILL THE ABUSIVE BOSS OF THESE SEXUAL WORKERS, IN WHAT UNIVERSE IS THAT SEXIST?, THE GAME IS ACTIVELY CRIMINALIZING THE VERY THING YOUR ARE CRITIZING, IT REWARDS YOU FOR KILLING THE ABUSIVE GUY, IT PUNISHES YOU TO HURTING THE STRIPPERS, WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT?

Somewhere between 70%-90% of all sex workers worldwide are forced into prostitution and have not willingly entered the field (Sex Trafficking: Inside the Business of Modern Slavery. Kara, 2009). Saying that many chose to be sex workers is in this context a gross misrepresentation of the reality of prostitution. That media keeps glorifying the presence of prostitution is pretty troublesome in that light.

But that is ignoring the main problem: Why are there strippers and prostitutes in the game to begin with? What purpose do they serve to the narrative? Would the narrative suffer if they weren't included?
One could argue that the Hitman-series has always had a thematic lean towards Noir and a cynical, borderline nihilist outlook on the events, characters and locations in the game. 47's targets are all terrible people who engage in depravity and who make their money on dubious business like drugs, weapon smuggling, prostitution, trafficking and other forms of organized crime. 47 is an anti-hero that kills these people not because it is right, but because he is paid to do so, in essence being only marginally better than his victims (on account of being emotionless and seemingly uninterested in the vices offered).

so? first of all im not sure in the western worl the statistics are that high, second, just assume most sex workers in a game do so willingly, and in hitman, where they are not, you are killing their abusive employer

also cant a game has a stripper club just for the sake of having a stripper club?

agent 47 could also be black, that doesnt mean the game is racist, he could be a woman, that doesnt mean the game is sexist

its a deliberate artistic decision to complement the narrative and themes of the thiman series which, like you said

Gethsemani:
The above could work as an explanation, but the problem is that we never see these strippers and prostitutes as anything but sex objects. They are literally just there to be titillation for the player. You could change any of the missions in any of the Hitman-games were strippers appear to a location without strippers and the narrative wouldn't change. That, right there, is an indication that they serve no purpose other than to titillate and provide fanservice.

One should also note that apart from deducting arbitrary points, Absolution doesn't punish excessive use of force or cruelty to bystanders. You can go guns blazing through the strip club and murder every last person and still complete the mission and move on like nothing happened. I wouldn't really call that punishing the player, since it is way closer to suggesting a playstyle.

so? should the player fail immediately if they kill a bystander? you can also go guns blazing on pretty much any other mission in the game

the game chooses, to discriminate NPCs based on their job, how is that bad?

SUPA FRANKY:

If you can't handle that the people in video games are not real, and are not trying to get the player to commit such actions in real life, then just stick to rated T or E games, where such violence or "implications" are heavily diluted.

lol

theres a big difference between 'videogames make you do things' and 'videogames can influence how you think and feel about things.

Spec Ops: the line would not had the impact it did if they didn't have the potential to affect you, your thoughts and your feelings.

Windknight:

NuclearKangaroo:

image

she is literally the most beautiful women ive ever seen in my entire life, im not even joking here, i fucking adore her, but because of reasons, she is an ingame character and she did some bad stuff and i have to kill her (granted is gonna be hard) is that sexualized violence? if i find someone attrative, all violence agaisnt that person is sexualized?

Your not exactly helping your argument by posting a character who's outfit is a string bikini top and hot pants. Pretty much the definition of a sexualised outfit.

Man, you have some problems with nudity or something. They are just boobs and butt. All people and animals have them lol.

I got over that nonsense when I was 16. We all start out nude.

Windknight:

SUPA FRANKY:

If you can't handle that the people in video games are not real, and are not trying to get the player to commit such actions in real life, then just stick to rated T or E games, where such violence or "implications" are heavily diluted.

lol

theres a big difference between 'videogames make you do things' and 'videogames can influence how you think and feel about things.

Spec Ops: the line would not had the impact it did if they didn't have the potential to affect you, your thoughts and your feelings.

Diffrence? That's the same thing lol. Is there a diffrence between a guy ordering you to do something or just whispering suggestions in your ear? It is up to YOU what you do in your life. No one can make you do anything.

I like playing Battlefield. I guess that means I'm going to join the army now lol.

Windknight:

NuclearKangaroo:

image

she is literally the most beautiful women ive ever seen in my entire life, im not even joking here, i fucking adore her, but because of reasons, she is an ingame character and she did some bad stuff and i have to kill her (granted is gonna be hard) is that sexualized violence? if i find someone attrative, all violence agaisnt that person is sexualized?

Your not exactly helping your argument by posting a character who's outfit is a string bikini top and hot pants. Pretty much the definition of a sexualised outfit.

THIS is sexualized?

she is a cosplayer, she choose to dress like that, how is that sexualized, and regardless, the things i find the most attractive about her is her face and smile, so really concentrate on that for the sake of the argument

i really dont get the "poliitically correct" crowd, now women cant dress in any way they like because some people might find them attractive? the hell?

the taliban must be the most fucking progressive people in the world then

NuclearKangaroo:
if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:


As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

IceForce:

NuclearKangaroo:
if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:


As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

i say the term "sexualized" it relative, what people find sexy differs form people to people and from society to society

but your example is also good

Windknight:

SUPA FRANKY:

If you can't handle that the people in video games are not real, and are not trying to get the player to commit such actions in real life, then just stick to rated T or E games, where such violence or "implications" are heavily diluted.

lol

theres a big difference between 'videogames make you do things' and 'videogames can influence how you think and feel about things.

Spec Ops: the line would not had the impact it did if they didn't have the potential to affect you, your thoughts and your feelings.

The makers of Spec Ops were being deliberately subversive in order to deliver a point to the audience.

Hitman on the other hand, has some elements that make sense to be there, and a minority of the audience are pulling sexists undertones from it. The game itself doesn't actually have much to say about equality.

IceForce:

NuclearKangaroo:
if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:


As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

What if men in suits turns me on? Is it sexualized violence then? What if I liked woman in burkas? Would it be sexualized violence then?

NuclearKangaroo:

THIS is sexualized?

she is a cosplayer, she choose to dress like that, how is that sexualized, and regardless, the things i find the most attractive about her is her face and smile, so really concentrate on that for the sake of the argument

The character she's cosplaying as goes around in all situations in a bikini, and the other elements of her clothes are more about accentuating her bare skin than covering it.

Are you honestly saying Rikku's character design is NOT sexualised? Come On dude, I LOVE litchi from Blazblue for her characterization, but I'm not going to pretend her design hasn't got strong sexual and fetish baiting elements. You are not being honest when you point at Rikku and say her design does not include elements that are not sexualised.

SUPA FRANKY:

IceForce:

NuclearKangaroo:
if i were to find male security guards attractive, i wouldnt be able to kill them because its sexualized violence?

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:


As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

What if men in suits turns me on? Is it sexualized violence then? What if I liked woman in burkas? Would it be sexualized violence then?

Thats personal fetish violence, not sexualised violence. Whatever floats your boat dude.

IceForce:

I don't think you'd be able to change the location without changing the narrative.

You'd have to rebrand 47's target as something other than a strip club owner. Or at the very least, have the mission take place at his house or somewhere away from his place of business.

Alternatively, and without changing the location, have 47 break into a closed strip club to kill the owner. And have no strippers present there at the time.

But I don't necessarily like this idea. Background decoration does serve a purpose, crass as it may sound.
Be it flower planter pots, or NPCs who serve no purpose other than to be gawked at and/or killed; by removing them, you're removing a piece of background decoration, and the game becomes more empty and less immersive as a result.

Making the target the owner of a sleazy bar or nightclub (or even a drug dealer in an empty warehouse) would not change the over arcing narrative (in both cases the target is just a stepping stone to get to the big bad). Don't get me wrong, I realize that everything put into the game serve as 'decoration' and helps establish the mood of the game. But why are we so intent on having sexualized female bodies as a standard decoration? What would we lose if we changed them out for something that doesn't have close ties to archaic gender stereotypes?

They are questions worth discussing at least, whatever or not you think sexy women as decoration has a place in mainstream media.

NuclearKangaroo:

so? first of all im not sure in the western worl the statistics are that high, second, just assume most sex workers in a game do so willingly, and in hitman, where they are not, you are killing their abusive employer

also cant a game has a stripper club just for the sake of having a stripper club?

The statistics for forced prostitution are actually higher in Europe (at least 90% of sex workers in the Netherlands are estimated to be working under some form of unlawful coercion, for example). So those statistics are legit, even if you do't want to consider their implications. Also, just assuming that "they are all volunteers" in a game is kind of like glossing over the Stalinistic purges in the USSR in a movie about Stalin because it would take away from the story about 'jovial Uncle Joe'. You can certainly do it, but it is deeply dishonest and serves to mislead people about how terrible these things really are.

Also, why include a strip club just to include a strip club? Why is it a location that's preferable to a location that doesn't reinforce gender stereotypes of women as passive objects to be ogled by men? Just saying that it should be in there "for the sake of it" isn't a convincing argument for perpetuating shitty gender stereotypes, just like throwing in some casual blackface into a game or movie would be deeply offensive even if "it is just some humor".

NuclearKangaroo:

so? should the player fail immediately if they kill a bystander? you can also go guns blazing on pretty much any other mission in the game

Didn't say that. I am merely pointing out that the whole "the game punishes it!"-argument rings very hollow. Punishment in-game would be forced game overs, less assets on later missions (like Blood Money, for example) or other things that impeded player progress.

Windknight:

NuclearKangaroo:

THIS is sexualized?

she is a cosplayer, she choose to dress like that, how is that sexualized, and regardless, the things i find the most attractive about her is her face and smile, so really concentrate on that for the sake of the argument

The character she's cosplaying as goes around in all situations in a bikini, and the other elements of her clothes are more about accentuating her bare skin that covering it.

Are you honestly saying Rikku's character design is NOT sexualised? Come On dude, I LOVE litchi from Blazblue for her characterization, but I'm not going to pretend her design hasn't got strong sexual and fetish baiting elements. You are not being honest when you point at Rikku and say elements of her design are not sexualised.

that must absolutely suck

i havent played FFX, but havent you thought its simply a matter of art direction such as in the case above?

regardless, this woman, chose to dress like that, how is that sexualization?, and if it is, who cares, is her choice, your political correctness is actually condemning her freedom to dress as she pleases

is ironic now that your argument has had both discriminating and oppressive tones towards women

SUPA FRANKY:

MysticSlayer:

SUPA FRANKY:
Well, you can really make anything seem like an object if you try hard enough. Te shopkeepers in games like Skyrim or Resident Evil have no other purpose but to sell you loot. The enemies you murder in droves have no other purpose but being hacked into pieces for slaughter.

Even if you could argue that a male storekeeper is just an object for the player to interact with, is that the only, or at least predominant, way in which players interact with non-enemy male NPCs?

Preety much yea, alot of them have to look for you for guidance in order to complete quest and usually have no initiative to just do it themselves. Their bodies tend to be left in the street as if they are trash ( at least on PC)

Are you talking about Skyrim? I wasn't trying to target that game specifically. I was just pointing out its use of resources compared to other games and how that does a lot to avoid problems with objectification. Sure, most characters give you quests to do things that they can't do on their own and can be killed if you desire, but at the same time, they have well-defined lives (for which shopkeeping is just a job), characteristics, and sometimes even deep backstories. In the case of the female characters, even the most sexualized ones aren't just there to be looked at and won for completing an object, but the also have those same personalities and lives that actual people do. Yeah, the game may not go as deep as could on everything, but it at least makes a noticeable effort.

Like I said earlier, that's what separates the object from the character. If the NPC has some actual personality (outside of "I'm so sexy!" or pure blandness), history, and/or life outside of what they mean to the player (whether shown or heavily implied), then they cease to simply be an object. They are, as far as the game world is concerned, actual people despite what the player may do to them. And again, I understand that we can't do that to every NPC while still keeping a sense of scale in-tact (e.g. Skyrim's cities feel underpopulated at times), but in the grand scheme of the world, having a diverse cast, including of gender, of personalized NPCs can go a long way to actually making women seem less like objects in the world and more like people.

Windknight:

SUPA FRANKY:

IceForce:

Not exactly the best example, given that security guards generally aren't sexualized, so therefore it wouldn't be "sexualized violence".

A better example would be the gay strippers in that gay bar in The Ballad of Gay Tony:


As far as I'm aware, it's possible to kill everyone in that place.

It's not sexism though, take note, because your brutal killings can be done to both males and females.

What if men in suits turns me on? Is it sexualized violence then? What if I liked woman in burkas? Would it be sexualized violence then?

Thats personal fetish violence, not sexualised violence. Whatever floats your boat dude.

But I would still find them sexualized.

Anyway, I have thing I need to do, so I'll just end it here.

And sorry I was being needlessly aggressive. It's just this gender politics gonking up everything is annoying after seeing it for the thousandth time.

MysticSlayer:

SUPA FRANKY:

MysticSlayer:

Even if you could argue that a male storekeeper is just an object for the player to interact with, is that the only, or at least predominant, way in which players interact with non-enemy male NPCs?

Preety much yea, alot of them have to look for you for guidance in order to complete quest and usually have no initiative to just do it themselves. Their bodies tend to be left in the street as if they are trash ( at least on PC)

Are you talking about Skyrim? I wasn't trying to target that game specifically. I was just pointing out its use of resources compared to other games and how that does a lot to avoid problems with objectification. Sure, most characters give you quests to do things that they can't do on their own and can be killed if you desire, but at the same time, they have well-defined lives (for which shopkeeping is just a job), characteristics, and sometimes even deep backstories. In the case of the female characters, even the most sexualized ones aren't just there to be looked at and won for completing an object, but the also have those same personalities and lives that actual people do. Yeah, the game may not go as deep as could on everything, but it at least makes a noticeable effort.

Like I said earlier, that's what separates the object from the character. If the NPC has some actual personality (outside of "I'm so sexy!" or pure blandness), history, and/or life outside of what they mean to the player (whether shown or heavily implied), then they cease to simply be an object. They are, as far as the game world is concerned, actual people despite what the player may do to them. And again, I understand that we can't do that to every NPC while still keeping a sense of scale in-tact (e.g. Skyrim's cities feel underpopulated at times), but in the grand scheme of the world, having a diverse cast, including of gender, of personalized NPCs can go a long way to actually making women seem less like objects in the world and more like people.

Yea I was.

But the thing is, alot of men and women thing their attractiveness is one of their major traits. Alot of men and women like being eye candy. Surem, not all women or men should be, but is it somehow wrong?

Anyway, I really need to get going, so most likely this will be the last post until later.

Gethsemani:

The statistics for forced prostitution are actually higher in Europe (at least 90% of sex workers in the Netherlands are estimated to be working under some form of unlawful coercion, for example). So those statistics are legit, even if you do't want to consider their implications. Also, just assuming that "they are all volunteers" in a game is kind of like glossing over the Stalinistic purges in the USSR in a movie about Stalin because it would take away from the story about 'jovial Uncle Joe'. You can certainly do it, but it is deeply dishonest and serves to mislead people about how terrible these things really are.

yes you can do that, if the purpose of the film/game is not to make any commentary on real world issues

Gethsemani:
Also, why include a strip club just to include a strip club? Why is it a location that's preferable to a location that doesn't reinforce gender stereotypes of women as passive objects to be ogled by men? Just saying that it should be in there "for the sake of it" isn't a convincing argument for perpetuating shitty gender stereotypes, just like throwing in some casual blackface into a game or movie would be deeply offensive even if "it is just some humor".

because thats the way it is, is an artistic choice

strip clubs are places where women are ogled by men, is real life an stereotype?

also theres a difference between blackfaces and stripper clubs, people accept the existence of strip clubs, some women willingly provide sexual dances there and some men willingly pay them for that, theres no oppression there, no objectification, hell one could argue the women there take advantage of men's libido

Gethsemani:

NuclearKangaroo:

so? should the player fail immediately if they kill a bystander? you can also go guns blazing on pretty much any other mission in the game

Didn't say that. I am merely pointing out that the whole "the game punishes it!"-argument rings very hollow. Punishment in-game would be forced game overs, less assets on later missions (like Blood Money, for example) or other things that impeded player progress.

-should the player fail immediately if they kill a bystander?
-Didn't say that.
-Punishment in-game would be forced game overs

yes, you DID say that

absolution has a bigger emphasis on high scores, from what i understand is not a decision that pleased everyone but it is a punishment, what is clear as day is that the game in no way encourages violence agaisnt the strippers in that level

Windknight:

SUPA FRANKY:

Windknight:

I find it ironic that you expect a game being rated Mature somehow lets it get away with being immature and thoughtless with regards tot he implications of sexulaised violence.

Implications? Any ADULT or kid with half a brain knows you can't do the stuff you do in games in real life.

Just stick to rated T or E games if you can't handle it. No one says you have to like it, but saying it should exist is just lol.

I'm saying it should put a lot more care and thought into it before it does it, and be aware of ways it may make others feel or perhaps influence attitudes and views. not just stick it in to be 'gritty' and 'adult'. I mean, the 90's comic market embraced 'gritty' and 'adult' in pretty much the same way, and that all went pair shaped.

Also, you are so cutesy trying to question whether I can handle M games or not. Just adorable. Are you going to call me chicken next, and make the noise with your mouth?

They have thought about it. What if creators genuinely feel like crossing lines at times, and will feel bored if they have to play minesweeper with all sorts of public sensibilities. Consider what sort of atrocities you don't see depicted in M rated video games, but in order to come to a finish product, That violence facilitated during missions is in the context of a particular story or event. Or that most antagonists they attack are characters that would've tried to kill them upon sight if they noticed them anyways. Or that chaos in a sandbox is usually a reflection of players freedom, but mission are not set up to indoctrinate players into murdering non hostile innocent people. Even CoD MW2 gave people a choice to opt out of the airport massacre.

They don't start with self censorship. They see how far they can go, and adjustlater for standards and practices. because people can get offended toward anything in a particular contest, that it pointless to keep catching up with moving goalposts and varying sensibilities and rather have the courage to make something that'll be potentially unliked. Our entire history of media and entertainment is laden with burned books, hangings, court inquisitions, threatened playwrights, congressional-chastised artists etc.

If the games were too horrible for the avg player to bear, they would not be making millions of dollars, and competing with major film earnings.

It is common for people to push the line in voyeuristic curiosities in media, because for every author who has done so in the past, different people will want to explore those realms for themselves. If you say certain subjects are beyond hurting and addressing in a fictional experience where no one truly registers hurt or abuse, then any and everything is off the table.

The best solution is for different creators of different backgrounds race and gender to get power to paint different perspectives just like TV shows do, rather than to lobby a new "Hays Code of offense" into AAA games. Otherwise young folk who already spend more than enough time lurking around at night, pranking and finding selfies of some really immorally opportune moments won't release their dark curiosities into the digital realm, but express them more in the real world.

NuclearKangaroo:
?

regardless, this woman, chose to dress like that, how is that sexualization?, and if it is, who cares, is her choice, your political correctness is actually condemning her freedom to dress as she pleases

is ironic now that your argument has had both discriminating and oppressive tones towards women

Ok, give me a second to gather myself so I don't laugh in your face over that argument.

I made no comment about the cosplayer. she is free to choose what she wears.

I made comment about Rikku, a 15 year old character who's design includes a string bikini, detached sleeves and a semi transparent skirt. that is a sexualised design, or a design with some sexualised aspects. She did not choose that outfit - it was chosen for her by her creator. You like her as a character? Thats fine. You like her design? That is totally fine too. Just have the goddamn honesty to accept you like a character who is sexualised as part of her design.

this is Litchi Faye-Ying

I think she's aweseome - she's a warm, kind and highly intelligent character who shows a lot of caring and is a strong fighter. I also like her looks, and I fully accept her design is sexualised. Doesn't stop me liking her, but I am fully prepared to acknowledge that aspect, problematic as it may be.

Windknight:

NuclearKangaroo:
?

regardless, this woman, chose to dress like that, how is that sexualization?, and if it is, who cares, is her choice, your political correctness is actually condemning her freedom to dress as she pleases

is ironic now that your argument has had both discriminating and oppressive tones towards women

Ok, give me a second to gather myself so I don't laugh in your face over that argument.

I made no comment about the cosplayer. she is free to choose what she wears.

I made comment about Rikku, a 15 year old character who's design includes a string bikini, detached sleeves and a semi transparent skirt. that is a sexualised design, or a design with some sexualised aspects. She did not choose that outfit - it was chosen for her by her creator. You like her as a character? Thats fine. You like her design? That is totally fine too. Just have the goddamn honesty to accept you like a character who is sexualised as part of her design.

this is Litchi Faye-Ying

I think she's aweseome - she's a warm, kind and highly intelligent character who shows a lot of caring and is a strong fighter. I also like her looks, and I fully accept her design is sexualised. Doesn't stop me liking her, but I am fully prepared to acknowledge that aspect, problematic as it may be.

what about vaan then? is he sexualized as well? what if its just part of the game's art direction

and hell even if it wasnt, lets look at fucking pop-culture for a second

if men dont care about sexualized portrayal of men, why should women care?

but well, look, we are getting ahead of ourselves, lets backpedal a little bit, i posted a picture of a beautiful woman, and you said it was sexualized, despite the fact this person willingly chose to dress like that, why-do-you-care?

you still havent answered my question, if this woman was a character in a game and i killed her, is that "sexualized" violence? i do find the woman attractive

SUPA FRANKY:
But the thing is, alot of men and women thing their attractiveness is one of their major traits. Alot of men and women like being eye candy. Surem, not all women or men should be, but is it somehow wrong?

I don't have a problem with sexualized female characters as a concept. My issues only come in the way that it is presented. Does that sexualization convey intrinsic values of that character or is it simply an aspect of eye candy mean to please the men around her? If it is the former case, then the sexuality becomes part of the character's intrinsic value as a person, but if it is the latter case, then they simply become objects meant to serve others' purposes, and when we consider that that form of objectification is often highly gendered in such a way that it leaves women as the lesser half in that split, then it becomes even more problematic. And yeah, it isn't like we can completely avoid potentially having players just look at attractive female NPCs for hours because they walked into one of the world's strip clubs, but at the same time, when games start coming to a better understanding that that sexuality should be for the character's sake not simply for a man's sake, then I think it would be much easier to walk into those locations and not see it as mandatory fan service but rather as just a place in the world where a few women have chosen (or been forced depending on the exact topic and how it is approached) to working there.

And on the more positive side, we have seen things like this done. The Witcher gave us a character that subverted the usual stereotypes of prostitutes. She isn't a sex partner (despite being in The Witcher) but can be interacted with like any other of Gerlat's friends. She was also given a decent backstory, and that backstory does a good job of presenting her sexuality as just one aspect of her as a strong person who can overcome, or at least will try to overcome, any adversity thrown at her. As another example, Mass Effect allowed Liara to let us look into Asari culture to understand why the Asari often took to be dancers. Sure, someone could argue that these games have their own set of problems, but at the very least, they showed some basic awareness of how to handle sexualized female NPCs without making them simple objects.

NuclearKangaroo:

and hell even if it wasnt, lets look at fucking pop-culture for a second

if men dont care about sexualized portrayal of men, why should women care?

but well, look, we are getting ahead of ourselves, lets backpedal a little bit, i posted a picture of a beautiful woman, and you said it was sexualized, despite the fact this person willingly chose to dress like that, why-do-you-care?

you still havent answered my question, if this woman was a character in a game and i killed her, is that "sexualized" violence? i do find the woman attractive

Oh my... presenting power fantasies as sex fantasies... (bursts out laughing). You do realize just how many videos we've had from Jim Sterling and Bob Chipman, book cover recreation posing pictures by Jim C Hines and so-on and so forth that precisely point out how flawed your argument is here? gimme a sec to grab some links.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men
http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/
http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games

Do some reading, some watching, and MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL do some thinking before you make your next post.

My comment wasn't abut the 'beautiful woman', it was about the character she had chosen to cosplay as. Character. CHARACTER CHARACTER. And yes, thats character was/is and shall ever be sexualised.

Windknight:

NuclearKangaroo:

and hell even if it wasnt, lets look at fucking pop-culture for a second

if men dont care about sexualized portrayal of men, why should women care?

but well, look, we are getting ahead of ourselves, lets backpedal a little bit, i posted a picture of a beautiful woman, and you said it was sexualized, despite the fact this person willingly chose to dress like that, why-do-you-care?

you still havent answered my question, if this woman was a character in a game and i killed her, is that "sexualized" violence? i do find the woman attractive

Oh my... presenting power fantasies as sex fantasies... (bursts out laughing). You do realize just how many videos we've had from Jim Sterling and Bob Chipman, book cover recreation posing pictures by Jim C Hines and so-on and so forth that precisely point out how flawed your argument is here? gimme a sec to grab some links.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men
http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/
http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games

Do some reading, some watching, and MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL do some thinking before you make your next post.

My comment wasn't abut the 'beautiful woman', it was about the character she had chosen to cosplay as. Character. CHARACTER CHARACTER. And yes, thats character was/is and shall ever be sexualised.

I never got this argument.

"This woman was designed to wear revealing clothing! This is sexualized and objectification!"

"This man was designed to wear revealing clothing! It's obviously a male power fantasy because we all know guys like looking scantily clad men with rippling muscles and women don't find that attractive at all."

I mean Christ, so many of your arguments here rely on double standards and willful ignorance it's not even funny.

Windknight:

NuclearKangaroo:

and hell even if it wasnt, lets look at fucking pop-culture for a second

if men dont care about sexualized portrayal of men, why should women care?

but well, look, we are getting ahead of ourselves, lets backpedal a little bit, i posted a picture of a beautiful woman, and you said it was sexualized, despite the fact this person willingly chose to dress like that, why-do-you-care?

you still havent answered my question, if this woman was a character in a game and i killed her, is that "sexualized" violence? i do find the woman attractive

Oh my... presenting power fantasies as sex fantasies... (bursts out laughing). You do realize just how many videos we've had from Jim Sterling and Bob Chipman, book cover recreation posing pictures by Jim C Hines and so-on and so forth that precisely point out how flawed your argument is here? gimme a sec to grab some links.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7290-Objectification-And-Men
http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/
http://www.jimchines.com/2012/04/posing-like-a-man/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games

Do some reading, some watching, and MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL do some thinking before you make your next post.

My comment wasn't abut the 'beautiful woman', it was about the character she had chosen to cosplay as. Character. CHARACTER CHARACTER. And yes, thats character was/is and shall ever be sexualised.

so a scantily dressed man is a power fantasy, but a scantily dressed woman is sexist, cool

look, i told you we are not discussing that, that was just you changing the subject

1- she choose to dress like that, her fucking decision, if its "sexualized", why do you care?

2- you still have not addressed my attractive female villain argument

Alek_the_Great:

I never got this argument.

"This woman was designed to wear revealing clothing! This is sexualized and objectification!"

"This man was designed to wear revealing clothing! It's obviously a male power fantasy because we all know guys like looking scantily clad men with rippling muscles and women don't find that attractive at all."

I mean Christ, so many of your arguments here rely on double standards and willful ignorance it's not even funny.

A more accurate summation -

"This woman was designed to wear revealing clothing so men can stare at her tits and ass and vulva, and the only value she has is to do so for the readers! This is sexualized and objectification!"

"This man was designed to wear revealing clothing! Look at him smash and destroy and look big and powerful and manly, show honour, fortitude and courage! This is idealization!"

Please don't talk of willful ignorance and then make such a foolish post.

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