the "Why didn't they just shoot Voldemort?" thread

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Wand ≥ Gun.
Quite simple really.

Rowling belabors the "wizarding world" as so uninterested in "muggle" technologies that they can't even get the names right, so why carry a firearm when they're already issued one and all with a lightweight supernatural swiss army knife of does-practically-everything which requires no ammunition?

I actually think I read a fanfic where Voldemort found out where the Dursleys live, and show up there to try and kill Harry. When he knocks on the door, just to mess with the people inside, uncle Vernon flings the door open and sticks a hunting rifle in Voldys face. Chunky Salsa ensued.

Mr.Mattress:
I think the Reason Harry doesn't get a Gun and shoot Voldemort is because... He's in England! How easy is it to get a gun in England? From what I've heard, it's rather hard. Heck, How easy is it for a 17-18 year old to get a gun in England? I would imagine its harder!

And how much money does he have to go to America to buy one, then use his wizard powers to bring it back to London without him getting in a ton of trouble? It's more of a burden then it is a benefit.

You may be forgetting the fact Harry's a fucking wizard.

...Because he's a man who can read minds at a distance, doubtless has shit-loads of magical shields surrounding him all at once, and who's very presence is magical enough to make most guns act erratically?

That, and wizards and witches put as much faith in mugggle technology probably as much as the soldiers in Iraq believe a fortune-cookie saying "Today will be a fabulous day".

That and, y'know, when Rowling wrote the books something like fourteen years ago, I don't think she intended to come out the same way it did now.

Once again people are missing the point. Voldermourt didn't spend his time tap dancing on top of the houses of parliament. He spent most of it in unplottable zones were drones cannot enter. Were muggles feel magically compelled to avoid and forget. Which cannot be found on any mapping device.
Trying to bomb large areas of britain in order to fluke hurting wizards is a poor technique.

The only way modern technology would be useful is to train a team of wizards to use sniper rifles and try to hit him from range. Even then the range would have to be so large (to avoid him mind reading) that accuracy is going to be an issue. If they don't hit him in the head he's gonna teleport and heal.
To make matters worse for sniping, Voldemourt has an entourage who are going to cause lots of problems. Dementors floating around, mean that the wizards need to be able to switch weapons to wands to fend them off.
And the final nail in the coffin is that its going to be impossible to plan and set up this operation because Voldermourts spies will find out. In which case Voldermourt would probably just have the Lestranges torture the families of those involved in an assassination plot.

The only reason Voldermourt hasn't taken control of the earth within that universe is that he despises most of it. After defeating the Wizards he would have taken control of various world leaders minds. Maybe started wars just for giggles. Get America to nuke countries because he is bored etc.

caviar1:
goodpoint, they still couldve saved the potters though and stopped voldemort the first time, right?

Saving the Potters might have undone Voldermourts death. Something which the ministry would not have risked. People are unlikely to use the time turners to go back long periods of time. Undoing events that you went back to undo would result in the events taking place anyway as you would have forgotten to go back in time to undo the events.
A big question would be, why would the ministry give such a dangerous device to a young girl. Dumbledore mentioned he had to pull strings but still...

Nuking Britain might stop Voldermourt. It would also dramatically increase the number of dementors and wipe out most of the people able to stand up to the ethereal death ghosts.

Still not seeing the technology as more useful than magic against Voldey.

This is why I like the Dresden files better. It takes into account the "normal" point of view. Nothing against harry potter though I just think Dresden is way better.

Although I can't really be bothered with it. Because it really is about the story and not the plot holes, it's entertainment is what I'm saying.

But, like posters before me, I find the missuse of spells and items much more crinch worthy. Like obviously the time turner thing. And their failure to use their ability to conjure, transform and animate in a creative fashion. Their solutions to problems, in the pressence of magic, tend to be terribly convoluted.

for crying out loud they had a couple of dragons in the goblet of fire they where perfectly confident in controlling enough to keep them around the school. And they opted not to use that aparant control in the final battle. It's more a missed oppertunity of epicness then it is a terrible plothole I will admit :P

Anyone watch How It Should Have Ended?

Best youtube videos ever. They explain a lot of this bullshit.

Kendarik:

Matthew94:
They are fans who take a book too seriously. There is no way to argue with stupidity. Imagining scenarios is fun but any actual arguments just makes me face palm.

All you would need is a nuke and bye bye hogwarts, even if you stop the blast the radiation will be there for years.

Not really, because the [insert magic here] would wipe it all away and in fact stop the detonation in the first place.

You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want.

This. It's freaking magic - not even the wizards know all the spells, the whole thing is completely open and undefined. Here's a spell that will blow up a street, here's an hour-glass that turns back time, here's an instant teleportation spell, here's a spell that pulls whatever you called for towards you, here's a spell that instantly kills, here's a blast of energy that can punch through stone summoned with a flick of a wand, here's a potion that allows you to transform into anyone else, here's one that instantly brainwashes your target, here's shields against perception, here's a trick to fit an extra house in a terrace, here's a spell of flight, here's a powder that lets you walk out of fireplaces.

How do you fight something as huge and varied as that with guns and bombs? For a start, how do you even find a wizard who wants to stay hidden?

I'm no fan of Harry Potter - it's just another book series - but you'd have to be very small-minded and gun-obsessed to think that you'd have a legitimate chance with a handgun against people who can break the laws we think the universe runs on with little more than a flick of the wrist.

SaneAmongInsane:

1. You tell me some sort of electronic device doesn't work, I get it. Theres no telling what a magical aura could do to electricity. However a gun is mechanical and chemical. I have to assume if a pully and rope can work in Harry's universe a revolver would work to. Maybe you could argue that the gun powder wouldn't combust... But an obvious solution to that would be just use the wizard-chemical-equalvelent of gun power. Then you got yourself a magic gun!

Counter: For most magics, technology suffers minor chaotic effects (See Dresden), firing a gun would be more likely to blow your own hand off. Not to mention a gun would glow like crazy to a real wizard.

If you create magic gunpowder, you've just given HIM a gun to use against you.

2. Bullshit. First off, most of the spells require either saying a two syllable word and making a motion with the wand and I doubt Volde could do that against a bullet. Secondly, Voldemort being the racist that he is wouldn't know what a gun is/does if he saw one so he wouldn't have anyway of anticipating the impending bullet.

1. Most, not all.
2. Pre-casting spells. Dresden again has an amulet that blocks bullet fire.

3. So Voldemort comes back... Just keep shooting everytime he resurrects. It's not like it's instantaneous, and you could probably do it several times before he actually could come up with an effective counter... and even then, just have hermione snipe him from across the pond. The time granted (instead of being wasted fighting him with magic) would be invaluable in finding the remain horcruxes.

1. Ammo
2. Goons
3. BEHIND YOU!

4. NO! I freaking hate this response, because all it is trying to cover up how poor the story really is. Hey, I get a kick out the series, but this is a glaring serious plot hole. The whole reason the stakes are high is because the magic world assumes that unless Harry stops volde the muggles wouldn't stand a chance... Truth of the matter is, and JK Rowling said so herself, that in a straight up war with the magical realm the muggles would win. We have vastly superior technology and armor, not to mention numbers.

And technology works on a set of hugely specific rules. If I increase your body temperature by 2 degrees, you go into instant collapse. If I warp metal by a millimetre, your gun/car/tank is just a useless hunk of metal. If I absorb kinetic energy from the area, your bullet has just given me enough force to shatter you.

TL;DR: You can't compare magic vs. technology using science. You have to use magic theory to explain magic.

Equally, you can't set up a sympathetic link through a Bookface page...although that does give me an idea for a story...

The only reason, the only GOOD reason why they didn't shoot Voldemort is because Harry just plain didn't think of doing it... and seeing as how both he and hermione both came from the muggle world and never once even lampshaded it I see is a major flaw in the whole series.

Time travel : Temporal Science also doesn't work in normal physics : You only saw the one iteration where it succeeded - how do you know there wasn't another 15 or so times where they tried what you were saying and it failed, so they had to go back?

I'm not a big fan of this story but I always wondered why she didn't simply set it in a more medieval setting to avoid questions like this. Some things would have to change, yeah.. But eh, can find plot holes in a lot of things.

I'm pretty sure that most wizards don't even know what a gun is. In the third book they go out of their way in a newspaper article what a gun is ("A metal wand muggles use to kill").

Fair, most muggle-born would know, but even then I imagine that this was tried a long time ago, and it just didn't do diddly-squat on the dude. Like, they shot him and it riccochet off him, or that his body is just nothing more than flesh his soul uses, and he was completely unfased.

But yeah, give a gun to many protagonists in any story and you'll solve it in five minutes. I don't see how this is an issue.

Because:

image

ONLY MAGIC BEATS MAGIC!

SnakeoilSage:

Treblaine:
How does Harry's exceptional love for his friends help vanquish Voldemort than if he had an entirely functional relationship with his companions? Neville killed the final Horcrux and he had an impersonal relationship with Harry.

Harry's love for his friends is what drives him. When he's facing Voldemort in battle, he's able to hold his own against a vastly superior wizard because he fights for people he cares about, and isn't afraid of dying to protect them. Rowling establishes those kinds of emotions as having power.

As for Neville, he was touched more by Harry's goodness than you think. It's barely touched on in the movies, but the books has Neville joining the Defense Association, gaining friends and confidence from their support. He and Harry meet in the hospital in The Order of the Phoenix, when Neville is visiting his mind-broken parents, and the two make a personal vow, as "orphans" of Voldemort and his evil, to make their parents proud. That strength drives Neville to hold his own against a Snape-run Hogwarts and, when he sees Harry has sacrificed all against Voldemort, he finds the courage to break Voldemort's paralysis, draw Griffyndor's sword from the Sorting Hat, and slay Nagini.

Harry survived as a baby because his mother acted as a human shield... magically. Somehow this Killing Curse killed both her AND reversed it back on Voldemort to kill him, and the final part of his Horcrux go into Harry. Actually, this sacrifice-spell makes the killing-curse a hugely impractical mode of killing. Of all the ways you could kill someone, be it with a spear, crossbow, gun, flamethrower, chainsaw... what could they possibly do to make such an attack kill themselves but ALSO kill the dealer? Short of a suicide-bomber's vest which kills everyone within a 20 meter radius.

The "somehow" you mention is love. Lily was willing to die defending her son, and when Voldemort killed her, her sacrifice created a powerful ward on Harry. When Voldemort turned his killing curse on Harry, that ward repelled the magic that destroyed Voldemort's body. Even Voldemort mentions this, calling it "old magic" that he didn't consider when he tried to kill Harry, and goes so far to use Harry's blood to rebuild his new body thinking that it would circumvent the protection her love provided (and it did, to a small extent).

And killing curse is apparently the only spell which is SPECIFICALLY designed to kill. The question shouldn't be why don't they shoot Voldemort but rather why doesn't Voldemort use a gun himself!?!? Guns WITH magic would be a HIGHLY effective combination. Like combining laser guidance systems with high-explosive air-dropped bombs, to give the Laser Guided Bomb that can deliver several tons of high explosives right through a ventilation shaft... or some "Force" guide a proton torpedo down a thermal exhaust port:

image

Magic sometimes has an odd effect on technology built during or after the Industrial Revolution. This is most obvious when Arthur Weasley's car spontaneously "goes feral" and drives itself off into the woods, where it presumably remained.

For that matter... why would Voldemort, an insane wizard-supremacist, even consider touching a "filthy muggle" artifact? They very idea would make his skin crawl, and to borrow from your own example "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the Force."

All the magic in Harry Potter just seems so arbitrary and open to abuse it's meaningless even within a work of fiction. It's not like a new set of rules, it's rules change all the time.

Yes, they do. I believe Rowling herself admitted as much. Magic exists outside of physical laws, so it stands to reason that it can be easily convoluted.

And the Elder Wand thing. That's not love, that's providence. Or in this case where we know it is a book, plot contrivance. JK Rowling conveniently made the random events of wands exchanging hands means the Elder Wand was Harry's and then introduce the element of obedience in wands so refuse to cast a Killing Curse on the owner... even though it did so minutes earlier, where Harry was again saved by convenience beyond his plan or will, did the wand "know" that?

In the Elder Wand's case it's an example of Voldemort's evil destroying himself. He seeks it out, believing it would prove more powerful than Harry's wand (since his own wand is it's "equal" and when he used Malfoy's wand, it blew up), never imagining that it was Harry's mindset: his courage and willingness to fight and die for his friends, that was making Harry the "better man" in this duels. Voldemort can't even conceive of love so he just kept seeking "stronger" wands, believing that the Elder Wand, as the strongest, would turn the tied.

I admit, how it switched hands is very convoluted, but I would imagine it understood what was happening as Voldemort cast the killing curse on Harry: first it sensed its true target was the fragment of Voldemort's soul inside Harry, and second it knew it was being used against its master. Ollivander suggests that wands can choose their allegiances, and the wand doubtless felt that Harry was the more worthy wielder.

I won't say it's not convoluted, but this is how the books play out.

This has nothing to do with love and compassion. This has to do with Harry stealing Draco's wand after he betrayed Dumbledor and Voldemort not understanding the rules of magic that Rowling is clearly making up as she goes along. So larceny on top of betrayal depending on ignorance...

Larceny, betrayal, and ignorance seem to have a lot to do with the absence of love, however, don't they? Voldemort stole, Voldemort betrayed, Voldemort refused to consider the power of love in Harry, and it cost him dearly.

PS: first you say Voldemort is motivated to kill Harry by hatred. Then suddenly you say he is motivated by practicality, that he thinks he must do it to survive. Which is it? Is it both? It's not unreasonable to hate someone that is going to cost you your life, even if a delusional opinion that makes him insane, not evil. Insane to kill a baby at a time when it clearly posed no threat nor ability to even indicate threat.

Obviously he set out to kill Harry as a matter of practicality: we can't have a boy destined to destroy me lurking about. He read his Evil Overlord List. But as Voldemort's efforts continued to fail and backfire, it quickly turned to hate, with a little fear and desperation mixed in.

Think of it this way: you're playing a multi-player game, and someone kills you. Fair enough. But then you spawn in, and he kills you again. Now you've got a grudge to settle. You seek him out, hoping to get even, but in the ensuing battle he kills you a THIRD time. You start actively hunting him, intent to make him pay. You start making mistakes; maybe you let your teammates die so you can chase this guy around the map, maybe you leave yourself open to being killed by your new enemy's own teammates. But it goes on and on and you can't land a single kill, and even worse, he kills you a few more times. Tell me you wouldn't start getting pissed off as this point.

Harry's meeting with Neville is not one of love and friendship, that's a pact of vengeance, both to avenge their parents. The trio of Harry, Ron and Hermione break up many times but what always drives them forward is their antagonism/hate for Voldemort.

After all the evil the Emperor was responsible for Luke threw down his light-sabre rather than strike down the emperor, proud that he has resisted the temptation to join the Dark Side and ultimately accepted the fate.

The "somehow the spell is reversed" you mention is love.

Again, the "Love = individuals more destructively powerful" idea. That's a conflict in terms.

The way you demonstrate the power of love is to bring people together, to be stronger together than as one, ESPECIALLY turning those on the side of evil against their evil masters.

why would Voldemort, an insane wizard-supremacist, even consider touching a "filthy muggle" artifact?

Well, Voldemort is already a hypocrite and I thought he wanted power above all else. Why have we never seen any "stop bullet forcefield" magic? Indicates these isn't such a spell.

Well the Nazis were happy to use Jewish money and technology that they had stolen, though mainly as slave labour. In the Cold War Americans admired and used AK47 assault rifles and other Soviet weaponry to spite their ideological differences. You can see it today, with bible-beating flag-waving very-right-wing Americans who have a paranoid hatred communism more greater than anything else, yet LOVE their communist made AK47! The US Army uses an advanced long-range Howitzer designed in Iraq by a Canadian defector. Throughout history, origins of weapons have not prevented their use by those with ideological differences.

"the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the Force."

That is precisely my point. The planet-destroying Death Star was destroyed by a force-guided bomb! Hitting an impossible target.

I believe Rowling herself admitted as much. Magic exists outside of physical laws, so it stands to reason that it can be easily convoluted.

It's no excuse to say "outside physical laws". You can't get to the final chapter of the final book of such a long series and STILL be changing the rules. You need to lay the ground rules and STICK TO THEM otherwise there is no tension as you know some solution can always be concocted from thin air.

You can have magic that defies OUR laws of physics that is yet not convoluted. Computer Games do this all the time, they change the rules of physics from normal but you then have to work within them to succeed. The ending of Portal 2 didn't depend on a "magic third portal", it exploited the ESTABLISHED rules in a totally mind blowing and unexpected way.

In the Elder Wand's case it's an example of Voldemort's evil destroying himself. He seeks it out... that was making Harry the "better man" in this duels.

That's a double standard. Dumbledor gets the Elder Wand and he's good, but Voldemort is bad for getting it. I'm sorry, but are wands so reliable as to make decisions of good and evil that the average Witch/Wizard aren't able to decide on, with so many being loyal to Voldemort.

The fact is the wand refused Voldemort NOT because they had a sense of morality that somehow sided with the half-muggles for their persecution, but because some unwritten pedantic rules of ownership (that even Voldemort didn't know) meant he couldn't use the wand to full potential, especially against it's "true owner".

Larceny, betrayal, and ignorance seem to have a lot to do with the absence of love, however, don't they? Voldemort stole, Voldemort betrayed, Voldemort refused to consider the power of love in Harry, and it cost him dearly.

SO you admit, Love had nothing to do with Voldemort losing the final duel.
-he lost the final duel because the wand was not his own because he is IGNORANT
-The wand was not his own because Draco BETRAYED Dumbledor
-The wand no longer belonged to Draco because Harry STOLE Draco's wand!

It wasn't just Voldemort who had an absence of love, so did Harry in this situation. This wasn't the wand making any moral decision, it was obeying like a simple amoral piece of technology giving limited access, like if you logged into a computer on a guest account and couldn't access all programs.

Voldemort lost not by Harry's strength but due to dumb luck. Or this this case "convenient writing".

Obviously he set out to kill Harry as a matter of practicality... he kills you a THIRD time. You start actively hunting him, intent to make him pay.

Sorry, this is "evil"? To want retribution on those who REPEATEDLY wronged you? Harry wants THE SAME! Vengeance for the death of his family. By this standard Harry and Voldemort are no different, no wand could make any moral decision to "reverse" (rather than nullify) a killing curse based on that.

This is weak sauce.

First, Harry and Hermione live in England, where guns aren't the most convenient problem solver.
secondly, Harry spend most of his time in a cupboard, or his room when he was in the muggle world for SOMETHING he had or not had done. He wasn't allowed to watch television for most of his time, or be in the same room as the Dursleys.
Thirdly they aren't violent people really, so guns wouldn't be a first choice.
And I guess after spending six years in the wizardry world, you kinda tend to overlook muggel-thingies you don't encounter everyday, like guns.

But seriously, it's a book. How would LOTR be if you watch { http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU } ? A dull unforgettable thing. convenience is not always the best things in books and stories. plot holes exist for reasons.

claymoreguy18:
This is why I like the Dresden files better. It takes into account the "normal" point of view. Nothing against harry potter though I just think Dresden is way better.

Goddamn ninjas. Stealing mah posts everytime

the same reason that bond villains tell bond about their plans, characters in fiction are stupid and over elaborate.

mooncalf:
Wand ≥ Gun.
Quite simple really.

Rowling belabors the "wizarding world" as so uninterested in "muggle" technologies that they can't even get the names right, so why carry a firearm when they're already issued one and all with a lightweight supernatural swiss army knife of does-practically-everything which requires no ammunition?

Yeah, a wand that only you can use, only if you have "the right blood", after years of training before you can do ANYTHING with it, and requires tongue-twisting incantations with all but very few being very weak in capability. That and it's not really clear how powerful and flexible it is.

Pistol is much faster and much longer range and hell you can give them to everyone. You can quickly train ANYONE to use a firearm in a fraction of the time to use magic.

And why would the wizarding world be so disinterested in muggle technology when they have no equivalent of these:
-Muggle aerospace technology can fly faster than the speed of sound at supreme altitudes and is capable of reaching the moon
-instantaneous personal communication: smartphones
-deep research, news, and opinion sources with the internet as well as near endless stream of entertainment
-Computer and Video games, much more affordable and varied than quiddich
-Indications that modern medical science is more advanced than what muggles can achieve

I didn't see anyone sticking a wand in their ear to talk to their friend over distance. Wands solve trivial problems like "oooh, how do I boil this water?". I don't know, use FIRE! I'd like to have seen a competent muggle in their situation who (racially) couldn't use magic and could often save them by knowledge of how to DIRECTLY interact with the physical world.

Treblaine:
This is weak sauce.

*Chuckle* Whatever, dude. I'm giving you J.K. Rowlings' perspective and intent on how the Harry Potter story plays out. Is is convoluted and made up on the fly? Sure. But that's how it happens. You can come up with your own interpretations but don't impose your own ideas on how the story plays out. Harry and Neville never express a desire for revenge against Voldemort, Ron and Hermione don't stick with Harry out of some shared hatred for Voldemort, etc. etc.

These views you have suggest to me that you haven't read the books, and if this is true then the debate is really just over.

BiH-Kira:

Matthew94:

Kendarik:

Not really, because the [insert magic here] would wipe it all away and in fact stop the detonation in the first place.

You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want.

Oh, and btw, its a series of KIDS books. The OP is calling HP fans names, while actually spending real brain cells trying to disprove a kid's book about magic. Who's the dim witted one again?

"You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want."

This is precisely why I won't argue with HP fans over this as you can't ever win using common sense.

"its a series of KIDS books."

By book 6 I wouldn't call it a kids book, it's just so depressing and so it the next one except replace depressing with boring.

Wow... just wow.
You are mad because you can't use commune sense against fiction? Really?
It's a book about fucking MAGIC!

To OP
There is no commune sense in a universe which rules you don't know (1. because a wizard can also create a kinetic barrier which would stop any object moving faster than 20cm/s instantaneously). You don't know what Valdemort knows, you don't know what he can do (2. which is obvious because you don't even know that he can use magic without doing anything).

3. Also, he doesn't regenerate his body. He creates a new body. Even if you kill him once, you don't know where he will be "reborn". He will just prepare him self better and that's it. You lose.

4. Well duh. Ofc. it's a plot hole. Every story has some plot holes. You can't except that an author fills every hole because that would be impossible. Use your freaking imagination to fill those plot holes or stop reading and let others enjoy the books.

It's fiction for a reason. It's not reality. Things don't work the way they work in our universe.

First of all, please learn to spell. It's common not, commune. I would think by reading the books you would have learned that word.

Secondly I'm not mad, you are just defensive. I said magic is the reason I would never get into a debate over HP as you cannot win with reason as magic answers everything (except the problem of reaction times).

Even though this is a REALLY dumb argument...

- Voldemort WOULD know what a gun was, remember he grew up in the muggle world
- You're only chance would be to pull an element of suprise, if he see's you pull a weapon you die.
- Even then you cannot guarantee it's a kill shot. All he needs is a fraction of a second and he will teleport to safety
- The horcrux is a valid point and you cannot predict where he will be when Voldemort comes back

I'm sure I could come up with more substantial arguments but as far as the whole "there would be no story".. YES, they're right! You can't spend 7 books creating this magical fantasyland and then cut it short by bringing firearms into it. It's not just fantasy,its a kids book!

-double post fail-

SnakeoilSage:

Treblaine:
This is weak sauce.

*Chuckle* Whatever, dude. I'm giving you J.K. Rowlings' perspective and intent on how the Harry Potter story plays out. Is is convoluted and made up on the fly? Sure. But that's how it happens. You can come up with your own interpretations but don't impose your own ideas on how the story plays out. Harry and Neville never express a desire for revenge against Voldemort, Ron and Hermione don't stick with Harry out of some shared hatred for Voldemort, etc. etc.

These views you have suggest to me that you haven't read the books, and if this is true then the debate is really just over.

Well I'm just saying the story is shallow and irrelevant, it doesn't have the significance of love nor compassion that the characters and creators want to claim. Harry Potter didn't prevail, Rowling prevailed as the "god" of this universe manufactured circumstance for victory rather than Harry's apparent free will and conscience challenging the outcome. It's a tale of fools. Intent is an excuse. What is actually written is what they actually depict. Voldemort was undone by a series of mistakes, not the "power of love".

Harry's allies (mostly) stuck with him, and Voldermort's allies (mostly) stuck with him as well. So what? The books make no real distinctions in outcome between Voldermorts side united by fear and greed and Harry's side.

I have read the books a long time ago and they didn't leave much of an impression on me.

Also I find it a bit shallow for her to merely claim out-of-canon that Dumbledore is gay but never write in him as EVER having a same-sex partner. If he is gay then he is by all appearances a celibate homosexual, precisely what the gay bashing Christians want. You know they "Jesus accepts homosexuals as long as they never love another man". It just comes off as a publicity stunt, intellectual cowardice and hardly breaking ground. She made this declaration after the famous gay actor Ian McKellen was perfectly cast as another wise old bearded wizard mentor to a young protagonist who's character is killed off mid story: Gandalf. Gee, the character of Gandalf sounds a LOT like Dubledore... coincidence?

Treblaine:

Yeah, a wand that only you can use, only if you have "the right blood", after years of training before you can do ANYTHING with it, and requires tongue-twisting incantations with all but very few being very weak in capability. That and it's not really clear how powerful and flexible it is.

Im sorry this has been corrected on several times within this thread. If you are not willing to listen to the clear explanations of other posters then im not sure what to do with you.
Many wizards use magic in the potter books without a incantations. Voldermourt is shown to be able to teleport with no incantations or complicated wand use. He can do spells on instantaneous thought.

Treblaine:
Pistol is much faster and much longer range and hell you can give them to everyone.

Range? Spells have been shown to be cast from miles away. Miles! Most offensive spells probably travel indefinitely until they meet a target.

Treblaine:
And why would the wizarding world be so disinterested in muggle technology when they have no equivalent of these:
-Muggle aerospace technology can fly faster than the speed of sound at supreme altitudes and is capable of reaching the moon

Wizards can teleport instantly to their destination. Much faster. Wizards could teleport to the moon and use a bubblehead charm (book 4) to breath.

Treblaine:
-instantaneous personal communication: smartphones

Whilst wizards tend to use owls they have also been shown to create objects which allow instantaneous personal communication. Dumbledores enchanted mirror would be an example. Heck in school hermione created a basic coin communicator to send cryptic messages. In school with a limited time frame! This is not beyond wizards at all.

Treblaine:
-deep research, news, and opinion sources with the internet as well as near endless stream of entertainment

The wizards tend to be a fairly tight nit group. No doubt they find a lot of muggle entertainment foreign due to their lack of cultural reference points.

Treblaine:
-Computer and Video games, much more affordable and varied than quiddich

Wizards have other interactive games than quidditch. The books are also set in an era slightly before internet gaming really became common in every household in britain.

Treblaine:
-Indications that modern medical science is more advanced than what muggles can achieve

Id honestly like to have seen more in the line of wizarding medicine. Its never really answered why the superior wizarding techniques are not used sneakily in muggle hospitals.

Treblaine:
*Snip*

In the end it's a book for children-young adults, one that slowly matured as its readers matured. It reached out and caught the audience it was intended for and as for myself, I enjoyed it a bit too. I don't hold it to the same standards I do more "hard" fantasy books or video games like say, Dragon Age or Warhammer.

And what does it matter if Dumbledore was gay? Neither he nor Rowling have the responsibility to carry some kind of banner about it; not every tale written these days has to be a biting satire of current events.

Love it or hate it, it is what it is. I'd rather kids read this than Twilight.

Rylingo:

Treblaine:

Yeah, a wand that only you can use, only if you have "the right blood", after years of training before you can do ANYTHING with it, and requires tongue-twisting incantations with all but very few being very weak in capability. That and it's not really clear how powerful and flexible it is.

Im sorry this has been corrected on several times within this thread. If you are not willing to listen to the clear explanations of other posters then im not sure what to do with you.
Many wizards use magic in the potter books without a incantations. Voldermourt is shown to be able to teleport with no incantations or complicated wand use. He can do spells on instantaneous thought.

Treblaine:
Pistol is much faster and much longer range and hell you can give them to everyone.

Range? Spells have been shown to be cast from miles away. Miles! Most offensive spells probably travel indefinitely until they meet a target.

Treblaine:
And why would the wizarding world be so disinterested in muggle technology when they have no equivalent of these:
-Muggle aerospace technology can fly faster than the speed of sound at supreme altitudes and is capable of reaching the moon

Wizards can teleport instantly to their destination. Much faster. Wizards could teleport to the moon and use a bubblehead charm (book 4) to breath.

Treblaine:
-instantaneous personal communication: smartphones

Whilst wizards tend to use owls they have also been shown to create objects which allow instantaneous personal communication. Dumbledores enchanted mirror would be an example. Heck in school hermione created a basic coin communicator to send cryptic messages. In school with a limited time frame! This is not beyond wizards at all.

Treblaine:
-deep research, news, and opinion sources with the internet as well as near endless stream of entertainment

The wizards tend to be a fairly tight nit group. No doubt they find a lot of muggle entertainment foreign due to their lack of cultural reference points.

Treblaine:
-Computer and Video games, much more affordable and varied than quiddich

Wizards have other interactive games than quidditch. The books are also set in an era slightly before internet gaming really became common in every household in britain.

Treblaine:
-Indications that modern medical science is more advanced than what muggles can achieve

Id honestly like to have seen more in the line of wizarding medicine. Its never really answered why the superior wizarding techniques are not used sneakily in muggle hospitals.

Yeah, but WHICH spells can you cast without saying incantations? If you can do this for all spells then why is it not done for all spells? I think that's because it can't be done for all spells. Throughout the series wizards and witches have NOT used insta-cast spells even when it could save their lives or the lives of others. Can you only pre load one spell at a time? Kinda impractical, what if you wait for them to cast a spell then shoot from a distance?

And where in the books HAVE you actually seen a spell cast against an individual (not an area) over several miles? Many times throughout the series the protagonists or enemies are very far away and spells are not cast but rather a pursuit begins.

What is the point in casting a spell over miles if the human eye can't even see that far? It's beyond the limits of human coordination to aim without visual reference like lining up sights. Modern weapon sights can pick out the thermal signature and direct a bullet or bomb at faster than the speed of sound, they won't hear it coming. Faster than the human nervous system could even react to the muzzle flash that could itself be completely concealed by a suppressor.

Are Wizards now by some unwritten rule also superhuman in their mental capacity to identify a bullet speeding through the air at 2'500 kilometres per hour and then deploy a spell against it? Also their dexterity to aim that their wands don't need aiming sights?

Wizard teleportation is rare and the commonly available magic is only from point to point as Weaselys' Diagon-Ally glitch. Why is it Wizards use other forms of transport if teleportation really was as easy and common as you describe?

An oversized enchanted mirror or magic coin is no where near as deep and flexible a form of communication as a smartphone that can:
-take pictures
-play games
-browse the internet
-communicate by text or voice or teleconference
-record voice
-take notes
-store manuals
-play back music, movies
-install apps that can do almost anything with the hardware integrated.

Wizarding folk might not be interested in Muggle media? The success of the Harry Potter books show we are interested in their lives, have they not seen what insight and entertainment that is on offer? Or they could make their own? I think this is just Rowling being a snobbish luddite with the idea that all these people would dismiss all aspects of the modern world as trivial with their old folksy Amish-like world embellished with a bit of magic for trivial matters.

It's kind of a double standard. They will use muggle inventions of cars, busses, trains and so on but draw the line at phones to spite their convenience. Maybe it's because Rowling needed paired transport in Chamber of secrets that could conceivably hover and a Car was the only one she could think of.

"Wizards have other interactive games than quidditch."

Like what? Wizarding chess? That is just Chess with a visual gimmick. In 1997 when the first Harry Potter book came out QuakeCom was in full swing, it was right in parallel with the online gaming revolution. Within the first 3 books online gaming had hit big on home consoles. I'd like to see their answer to Call of Duty or Team Fortress 2.

PS: if Wizard did teleport to the moon and use a Bubblehead charm (that I assume contains the air molecules around their head) their chest would explode from the necessary air pressure in their lungs. If the bubble was extended around their body even then they would be screwed as their body and this small pocket of air would soon freeze to 3-degrees above absolute zero. So cold that the nitrogen in their air around them would turn to liquid. And if that doesn't get them the solar radiation will. Even if protected from all that This bubble they'd soon suffocate as the CO2 they exhale would quickly build up... it would be like putting a plastic bag over your head, you'd die quickly. See you actually have to STOP AND THINK rather than just say "hurr, magic solves it". You'd have to cast a dozen different spells, OR you could wear one space suit designed for the job.

See, not even children that the Harry Potter books were initially targeted to should be exposed to such anti-scientific bullshit.

I can accept magic in Harry Potter, as Rowling has made that part of the natural world, so it's not really magic. What I cannot accept is how she throws out all knowledge of material science along with the introduction of magic. This is BAD mode of thinking to put into children's minds. Again, I am OK with hypothesising of "what if you could magically impart force-X with what we'll call magic for now" but the premise from that then seems to be that physics, chemistry and biology as well as communication technology and other sciences are somehow irrelevant.

The biggest reason for the lack of guns is that in the UK only people with a licence (such as farmers/hunters) or armed forces can legally have guns and since everything in the magic world is covered up by the wizards the general public or army wouldnt know about this.

Voldemort would be able to reflect/disintegrate most physical attacks as more powerful wizards do not need to say the incantation or even use the wand (wands just focus inherent magical powers they do not provide them) also he has an elite guard that can be summoned at any time in an instant and usually has a few of those with him at most times.

As far as i see guns would work in Hogwarts but the above reasons prevent them working on him, and my own theory is that he also has some sort of protective aura surrounding him at most times though thats merely speculation.

Guns are mentioned in the 3rd book but it is made clear that most wizards do not know what they are (described as a muggle equivalent of a wand used for killing people).

(To the second person in the thread) Also nukes wouldn't work on Hogwarts because it cannot be plotted on a map so near impossible to find, the electric charge needed to trigger the explosion would fail and as soon as the plane was spotted im pretty sure they would be given plenty of advance notice and time to prepared a counter attack.

Treblaine:

Snip

You are basing the entire knowledge of real life verses a very limited view to a fictional world, there have been hints to things outside of the book content (such as wizards having their own parallel to the internet) but there have not been a lot of specific things that you are obsessing over.

Maybe when the encyclopaedia JKR is writing comes out we may have better answers but 90% of what we know from the HP series is things that Harry has come into direct contact with and therefore isnt specific enough for you.

Also it seems from some of your responses you are not 100% clued into the books or other media beyond the films which may also limit your own view of the series.

Well, I'll just say what I always do:

Geo Da Sponge:
For all the people who say "Herf-a-derf, snipers..." and always will...

It's shown that a joke shop can enchant and mass produce items of clothing with deflection charms on them. Voldemort probably has magical protection up the wazoo, and even if he doesn't, it's not like his location is ever clear or particularly permanent. I mean fuck it, us muggles could barely find Bin Laden, what chances do we have against someone who can fly and teleport?

I've yet to hear anyone get back to me on that.

Three more things to add though:

1) What's with all the people saying that there are no guns in Britain? I mean, not legal for civilians obviously, but it's not like a group of people who can teleport and turn invisible would find it impossible to get one.

2) Why is it the moment this topic comes up people start jerking off over sniper rifles? It's not just 'A guy with a gun could kill Voldemort' it's 'A sniper from a kilometer and a half away with a flash supressor, he'd be so badass, one shot one kill, *BANG* and he's gone, tango neutralised, uhhh, UHHH, UHHH!!!'

3) Voldemort really, really doesn't just wander around in the open like that; the only times he's seen in public is when something specifcally serious has gone done and he wants to be there to angrily kill a few underlings, and I don't suppose he turns up unprepared for possible attacks.

SnakeoilSage:

Treblaine:
*Snip*

In the end it's a book for children-young adults, one that slowly matured as its readers matured. It reached out and caught the audience it was intended for and as for myself, I enjoyed it a bit too. I don't hold it to the same standards I do more "hard" fantasy books or video games like say, Dragon Age or Warhammer.

And what does it matter if Dumbledore was gay? Neither he nor Rowling have the responsibility to carry some kind of banner about it; not every tale written these days has to be a biting satire of current events.

Love it or hate it, it is what it is. I'd rather kids read this than Twilight.

Suitable for Children? How young? Four, five years old? Their contempt for scientific thought and selling of "magic solves everything" is a poor mode of thinking to sell to young adults or even older children even if it is completely a word of fiction. It conditions them to accept magical explanations and to hell with science, understanding or knowledge of the actual natural world. To spite the bible basher's fear of Harry Potter as a Warlock; Rowling's books serve Creationists when they try to sell the story to people that God simply magic'd the world, and all the species into existence, no question of how that conflicts with physics. Magic can just do EVERYTHING.

I know it's a work of fiction, but even a critical mind should see where a work of fiction does the impossible.

Someone suggested a wizard could just teleport themselves to The Moon and cast a bubblehead charm around their head. Well that's as worthless as putting a plastic bag over your head; your chest would explode, your skin would freeze and every molecule of your body would be irradiated. It shows utter contempt for the physics of surviving in deep space such as needed in a space suit, with the idea that just a bit of magic will do it all.

This is VERY distinct from "magic" or impossible physics used to hypothesise about the real world, like just the hypothetical proposition it was possible to impart a gravity-like force on someone - a Fus Ro DAH - what effect would that have on physics. We see this in video games that strive to have a realistic physics engine then break one aspects of the law and see what else you can do. Like in Portal and Portal 2. Wormholes are not currently possible, but lets hypothesis they are... and demonstrate conservation of momentum and what a potent force gravity is in that.

"And what does it matter if Dumbledore was gay?"

She gets the publicity and credit for declaring that he is but doesn't have to put any commitment of actually making a convincing and relevant gay character. She writes in his brother as an important male in his life, but no male lover anywhere. She copped out of that one. It's lazy and intellectually dishonest.

I think she likes the idea of being progressive by making one of her principal characters gay but doesn't want to actually think how a homosexual relationship would operate. On any level. She brought this on herself.

And saying it's better they read Harry Potter than Twilight is like saying it's better they watch Evan Almighty than Michael Bays's Transformers.

When I was a kid I watched reruns of MacGyver. He didn't depend on magical solutions.

Harry potter is set in England where getting your hands on a gun is only possible to farmers, gangs with connections and the military and harry has access to none of them.

siddif:

Treblaine:

Snip

You are basing the entire knowledge of real life verses a very limited view to a fictional world, there have been hints to things outside of the book content (such as wizards having their own parallel to the internet) but there have not been a lot of specific things that you are obsessing over.

Maybe when the encyclopaedia JKR is writing comes out we may have better answers but 90% of what we know from the HP series is things that Harry has come into direct contact with and therefore isnt specific enough for you.

Also it seems from some of your responses you are not 100% clued into the books or other media beyond the films which may also limit your own view of the series.

How the hell could Harry have not certainly encountered a Wizzarding equivalent of the internet when that would be so useful to his studies? These are fundamental technologies and physical processes.

An Encyclopedia can only be a poor retcon for a series that Rowling didn't put much thought into from a technological or scientific aspect. It's also incredibly old fashioned and somewhat shillish in this day and age of fan-wikis that can be officially moderated and there is no need to have a big heavy hard-copy book that must sell for a price and cannot be edited nor added to after the fact.

Encyclopedias are more than obsolete they are an anachronism of 2012, the Wiki-model is far superior and more accessible and more relevant as it is based on what is actually declared in the books, not the way Rowling may want to have it with hindsight. It's like the digital revolution has completely flown over Rowling's head. Science now totally depends on online journals for how frequently things are updated and amended.

If you don't care about science, take for example game guides. How they are worthless if not only for their simple mistakes but mainly the patches, many of which fundamentally change gameplay to the point where the only reliable source of information is the free wiki rather than the fixed and premium-priced game-guide. And of course the users can discover things the publishers either didn't want you to know or didn't even know themselves! And the patches equivalent of Harry Potter would be further books in the series.

Rowling should make money of telling stories and shouldn't try to make money off what the Wiki-moderators are providing for free. All this encyclopaedia can do is waste her time writing either redundant or irrelevant information (defined by how if it is in or not in the boos) that may not even be canon anyway!

SaneAmongInsane:

4. NO! I freaking hate this response, because all it is trying to cover up how poor the story really is. Hey, I get a kick out the series, but this is a glaring serious plot hole. The whole reason the stakes are high is because the magic world assumes that unless Harry stops volde the muggles wouldn't stand a chance... Truth of the matter is, and JK Rowling said so herself, that in a straight up war with the magical realm the muggles would win. We have vastly superior technology and armor, not to mention numbers.

You do realize that that applies to nearly all fiction? That's why its fiction... it punches gritty reality and extreme logic in the balls and makes entertaining shit up. If you don't like it, avoid any kind of fantasy like the plague, for your sake.

Treblaine:

siddif:

Treblaine:

Snip

You are basing the entire knowledge of real life verses a very limited view to a fictional world, there have been hints to things outside of the book content (such as wizards having their own parallel to the internet) but there have not been a lot of specific things that you are obsessing over.

Maybe when the encyclopaedia JKR is writing comes out we may have better answers but 90% of what we know from the HP series is things that Harry has come into direct contact with and therefore isnt specific enough for you.

Also it seems from some of your responses you are not 100% clued into the books or other media beyond the films which may also limit your own view of the series.

How the hell could Harry have not certainly encountered a Wizzarding equivalent of the internet when that would be so useful to his studies? These are fundamental technologies and physical processes.

An Encyclopedia can only be a poor retcon for a series that Rowling didn't put much thought into from a technological or scientific aspect. It's also incredibly old fashioned and somewhat shillish in this day and age of fan-wikis that can be officially moderated and there is no need to have a big heavy hard-copy book that must sell for a price and cannot be edited nor added to after the fact.

Encyclopedias are more than obsolete they are an anachronism of 2012, the Wiki-model is far superior and more accessible and more relevant as it is based on what is actually declared in the books, not the way Rowling may want to have it with hindsight. It's like the digital revolution has completely flown over Rowling's head. Science now totally depends on online journals for how frequently things are updated and amended.

If you don't care about science, take for example game guides. How they are worthless if not only for their simple mistakes but mainly the patches, many of which fundamentally change gameplay to the point where the only reliable source of information is the free wiki rather than the fixed and premium-priced game-guide. And of course the users can discover things the publishers either didn't want you to know or didn't even know themselves! And the patches equivalent of Harry Potter would be further books in the series.

Rowling should make money of telling stories and shouldn't try to make money off what the Wiki-moderators are providing for free. All this encyclopaedia can do is waste her time writing either redundant or irrelevant information (defined by how if it is in or not in the boos) that may not even be canon anyway!

If you want the wiki version there is Pottermore the official interactive site run by JKR and Sony which is soon to open to the public. Its not just a lexicon of things in the books its also behind the scenes look at how the books were made and the creative process behind that including scrapped chapters, interactive games, etc.... Though when the books themselves arent due to change in content and all of the films are out a hard copy book can also be good. I dont see it as a cop out though as behind the scenes documentaries or biographies are seen as full products so why cant this book?

Harry hasnt interacted with the wizard internet thing because he is in class/fighting evil wizards/hitchhiking around Britain and when not doing that hes in a muggle household with less than basic rights.

Even if i would feel inclined to make some attempt at arguing the whole gun thing, being a fan myself, you still make plenty of sense. How much technology does a gun even have anyway? Cell phones, ok, i can get that. But guns? They're not run through wireless connections.

Davatehi:
Well, the main reason is probably becasue the book would be over in like five minutes.

I love that Harry looks like he is saying "BANG!"

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