it seems to be one of the products/flaws of our broken capitalism (aka: I-must-win-and-everybody-else-must-die-preferably-horribly - capitalism): the product that is brought by the common customer must preferably:

- be aesthetically pleasing (no matter what the product is actually used for)
- be easy to use (even a moron should be able to use it WITHOUT ANY MANUAL OF SORTS)
- not allow the customer to "break" the product by accident/proper usage in itself and therefore limit the products to "easy to use" features. Generous "dumbing down" as deemed necessary. (see computer operating systems)
- be easy/cheap to produce (cheapest material and cheapest workers)
- have the highest possibly acceptable price (production cost is absolutely negligible)
- have the lowest possibly acceptable quality (together with cheap materials and minimal use thereof)
- must break quickly after expiration of warranty so the customer is forced to buy a new version.
- no repairing whatsoever, neither through service nor by the customer. (repair workers are expensive, as is shipping single parts of a product around the world. it is cheaper to just send a completely new version of the product.)

net win:
more money :D

net loss:

insane waste of ressources/material. (plus no recycling, of course. See plastic)
unsatisfied customers. (because stuffs break. all the time.)
slow stagnation due to lack of REAL improvement outside of aesthetics. (so customers buy more shiny stuff)
MUCH less money in the long run due to degenerating economy.

in short: almost perfectly optimized to milk more money, while sacrificing everything else, including the base the company is standing on.

*facepalm*

EDIT: I know most people know this - just felt like making a list

I've worked on my own cars before

I only usually take my vehicles to shops for warranty purposes or the lack of time. Dad was a self operator of a big rig, and he always worked on all of his own equipment.

So guess who was taught how to work on cars, trucks, etc?

I wouldn't say do it yourself has died, just changed. It really depends on the item being fixed for most people. Sure, more people take their cars to the garage now to get fixed. But there are also more people who will fix their broken computer at home rather than taking it to the shop.

Vault101:
its true we live in a very disposable society

it maes me wonder if the "easy" shiny stuff that comes form apple will overtake the more veritile computer models

Im not computer savvy by any means but Id rather have somthing that can acutlaly play around with than some shiny thing made for retards

And this is exactly why I dislike Apple products. I'm not a moron.

...well, there's also the fact my most of my employment comes from servicing such devices (as well as stereos, general electronics, etc.)., but mostly the fact that I like being able to service my own products.

And I'm especially annoyed that replaceable batteries are becoming a thing of the past. Are people really so clueless that they actually think sending their tablet in and paying an exorbitant service fee is a good thing?

Don Savik:
As technology and fields become more specialized, and our population increases, a DIY attitude is just bad for the society.

Think of us becoming less like a gang of 5 gorrilaz that sit around in the jungle and do everything ourselves, and transforming into a colony of a bajillion ants, each with certain roles.

Its the course of all expanding societies.

I would like to solve all my problems but guess what? Car repair doesn't interest a lot of people. ITS BORING. A lot of people would like to make their own food, but guess what? FARMING IS EQUALLY BORING. So if we can designate certain tasks to the individuals that ENJOY IT than everyone can be happy. I see no negative to relying on your fellow man for help. Screw old people and their selfish ways.

Based on the last line, I'm assuming you're taking the piss. On the offhand you're not, though....

Nobody's saying that service fields should go away, as far as I can see. But the mandatory nature of service these days is kind of ridiculous. By way of analogue, farming may be boring, but what if I WANT to grow my own food? I don't, but a lot of people do.

I want to be able to service my own stuff, and turn to the service sector when I don't want to or can't. Why is it a bad thing? I still depend on others, be it friends or professionals.

Redlin5:

HardkorSB:

Redlin5:
mhm

So?

I'm fragile and I want to be able to feel like I'm self sufficient.

Well, learn farming then :)

You know why I think people don't care about being self-sufficient? Because they want to be able to enjoy their lives. Back when everyone had to do everything themselves, there was no time left for pleasure. It was just work, sleep and occasional fucking. And church (but that was mandated by the ones in charge so it was almost like part of work).
I rather have someone else make my food, clothes, house, provide transport for me etc. while I'm enjoying life.

In terms of my car: If it's not the battery that died, a tire that needs to be inflated, or a fuse that needs to be changed, it's going to a mechanic.
One reason is that I spent and still do spend my time studying to be an accountant, not a mechanic. Nothing against mechanics, if you're good and passionate about it, then take my money! It just leads to my second point:
I don't give two shits about how cars work. As long as the gas pedal speeds me up, the brake pedal slows me down, and the steering wheel turns the car, I don't give the slightest damn how the rest works. Cars don't interest me.

But that isn't how I feel about everything. Like if something's wrong with my computer on the other hand, something I do find interesting, I'll fix it myself.

Redlin5:
-clip-

I used to own an '86 Buck Regal. The oil pan gasket was leaking so I figured it would be a simple fix. Twas not, as you have to literally pull the engine out to get the pan off. I got rid of that asshat.
Got a '79 Ford Ranchero, plenty of room to work. During a rainstorm the land yacht lived up to its name and sailed into the back of a semi on the highway (impact speed of roughly 30-40 mph, I didn't even get a bruise). Pulled the fan shroud off and she drove like nothing happened (her face was all sorts of messed up). The frame was so bent to hell that we couldn't save her, but I'd love to see a modern car survive that.
Then I got a '77 Cadillac Eldorado. Despite being Front-wheel drive with a 425 cui V8, you still have plenty of room to do anything you needed to do and it was simple to do.
Now I have an '87 Porsche 944S that you can't do much beyond change the plugs and wires (which are more than twice the cost of the ones for the Cadillac despite having half the cylinders and 1/3rd displacement).
The only two vehicles I have had that are younger than the Atari have both been major pains in the arses to work on. So a tip to all who are looking for a good car, get something from the 70's or earlier. Nothing rides as smoothly as a land yacht and if you master driving one of those, you can drive pretty much anything. You become a much safer driver when you have that much car to manage.

I cannot but notice the amount of times you mentioned the words 'time' and 'effort'. See, it's not all about one's inability to fix his car, or whatever - it's because its undesireable to do so. Oh, you can argue that learning to operate a car's onboard pc, to be able to fix it, is a lot more difficult than learning basic engine mechanics, and so on, but it's not impossible, and if people truly had the will to do it, like 'in them olden days', then they would still do it. Thing is, people today have a lot less time to waste in the comfort of their own garage trying (and possibly failing) to fix something, that could be handled by someone else. And quite honestly, I don't see a problem with that. Yeah it's a lot more expensive, but at least now people can make a living doing that, and you have people who actually specialize and are a lot more competent in certain areas, than your average joe will ever be; and who will guarantee a good job, while you go about your daily routine. Thus removing an entire layer of work that needs be done, when something happens, and freeing up a lot of your time, so, yeah, goodbye and farewell I say to this 'do it yourself' generation.

Also

As we venture towards an all service based economy, expect the handy man to fade from existence or as we know it.

Interestingly enough, my family has consistently refused to change for this. My uncle built a full shop on his property and has a tool set for everything. Need a new injection system put in your 2012 Honda? It's a lot of work, but if you're willing to hang out, help him, and pay for the parts, sure.
Most of us just drive old cars, though. My dad is still in a 1964 chevy his dad bought new. Second engine, second transmission, approaching a million miles on the chassis, still going strong (and still getting around industry standard gas mileage from a small-block V8. Fancy electronics don't change the laws of physics or conservation of energy... and there are easier ways to achieve mechanical precision. 5.7L, 24mpg, carbureted).

I own two vehicles that are older than me (one of which was built in 1974 and gets better gas mileage than a Prius. Progress? 1L, 55mpg, carbureted), and do most of my own work on 'em. What I can't figure out, my brother or my uncle (both of whom have extensive education in automotive maintenance, which helps) help me with, and I learn.

We're bad consumers, I know. If every family in the states was like mine, the auto industry here would have died in the 80s... but aftermarket parts would still be going stronger than ever.

For every pro, there is a con.

What you should keep in mind here is that new cars produce more horsepower from less gasoline. Meaning more bang for your buck, especially in these times when gas is so expensive. Those "evil computers" aren't there just to make the company money, but to make your car more efficient, safer, and to extend it's lifespan.

The '69 Dodge Charger had a fuel economy of maybe 9MPG (on the highway), if you were lucky. The new Charger, which has about the same HP and weight, has been reported to get as high as 28mpg. Most people would agree that a MPG rating with more than one digit is nice, and worth a little extra money when repairs are needed. The fuel efficiency craze is pretty bad right now, people will fork out 10 or 20 grand extra to get that hybrid, then drive it on mostly highways, which is just stupid.

The car "enthusiasts" will sit there and piss and moan about how onboard computers took the fun out of cars, and make it too complicated to do anything to them, along with automatic transmissions (even though the new autos and semi-autos are better at shifting that you are, and more fuel efficient, trololol), but the fact is that things change. People are just slow to accept it. I for one am happy that we're getting better and better tech, more power for less gas? Sounds good to me. I agree that oil filter placements can be a huge piss off, though.

Relish in Chaos:
For every pro, there is a con.

Usually, the con in ease of maintenance is difficulty of use. Easiest way to not sell something in the US nowadays? Make it less than completely user-friendly. If there's a learning curve to use a product in the US, people don't want it anymore. As a culture, we've just become that lazy.
I blame the comical attitude toward VCRs in the 80s and 90s. Being technically inept became the standard then.

The generation of 'fix it yourself' people isn't dead, or dieing. It's just taking a vacation for a while. People of recent generations are throwing things away too easily, getting other people to fix things for them, and being lazy about getting things done. It'll get bad enough to the point that people will have to take another look at how they're living, and fix it. You will eventually see a gradual shift of this as time passes.

If you want to help the matter, then learn to fix things yourself and pass it on to your offspring and relative's offspring.

I mean, I made butter the other day. Crazy, I know! What when I could just go to the store and buy some. It tastes so much better, and I can control the salt content. Even throw some herbs in there if I want. I used the run-off buttermilk for pancakes. When I described this to friends, they thought I was insane. Why? It's because I wanted to know how. I never learned it as a kid and was curious. I already found out how to make wine and yogurt. Cheese and jam are next.

I also use to do my own repairs to my '92 Geo. The only thing I couldn't prevent was the heavy onset of rust on the frame. My current car is a bit more complicated and 'high tech', so I'm having a bit of trouble learning it. What I wouldn't give for a brand new clunker. One without computers and with easy-to-figure-out sensors.

Redlin5:
snip

I think that is a pretty cynical view point, car companies making things harder to DIY so they can charge for new parts ... especially since you can buy 3rd party and custom parts for cars.

I think it is just about improving cars in a lot of cases. Like why have a foot of space between the block and the chassis when you can make the car smaller?

Things have to be taken into a garage so the ECU you can be reset 'cos the ECU controls everything these days, which makes cars better. Instead of you dumping loads of crap out of your car lambda sensor switches on and off constantly to reduce emissions, how would you fix that at home?

Of course some of it is to make money out of you but you can always buy these parts yourself, just on top of your tool set buy an engine crane and a ECU reader.

(some of what I have said might be wrong ... been awhile since I was in college)

My family fixes almost all house home and car problems ourselves :S

I think it's necessary and entirely a good thing.

Cars back in the day were not very safe things. 40 years ago the maximum speed was set at 60-70mph for a reason, because the brakes, the steering, the suspension, all of it wasn't good enough to withstand any faster speeds.

Modern cars can go to a hundred and still be pretty damn safe, as long as the driver is good as well. This is only made possible by the inclusion of all those systems you can't fix.

So yeah, some of it might be to maximise profits, which can you blame them actually? If you don't make profits your company goes under, but also to maximise safety and the driving experience. You can't simplify it down to 'money, money, money' because it's not about money. It's like saying that you could fix your own GameBoy Colour back in the day if you had the know-how, but would you trade in your PlayStation 1, 2, 3, XBox and 360, Wii, Sega Genesis, GameCube just so you could fix it yourself? (Please Note: If you answer yes to this question you are an idiot.)

I'll take a better, safer, nicer and overall better in every single conceivable way driving experience over a rattly hunk of crap that I have to fix myself fom parts I found on a scrapyard actually.

Zachary Amaranth:
And I'm especially annoyed that replaceable batteries are becoming a thing of the past. Are people really so clueless that they actually think sending their tablet in and paying an exorbitant service fee is a good thing?

One thing to remember with non removable batteries is that you can increase the battery capacity by doing so. Apple reported a 40% increase when they switched to unibody construction because they didn't have to install a door, locking mechanism, physical sides to the battery shell, etc. Imagine if the iPad had a removable battery and got 60% of the battery life it does... no one would be happy.

Blablahb:

Rainforce:
it seems to be one of the products/flaws of our broken capitalism (aka: I-must-win-and-everybody-else-must-die-preferably-horribly - capitalism)

The guy with the big red flag with the sickle&hammer on it in the local squat who told you that, was way off the mark.

And I don't recognize anything about the rest of what you said. Products are of quality, most of them last forever and ever. One coffee machine once died on me because of a clear fabrication error and the shop didn't try to fix it, but only because it only employs sales personell who know fuckall about electronics. And that was a knock-down priced machine. The replacement lasted two years, which is more than I expected for something that cost a mere € 20 (comparing, the mid-range coffee machine is € 50-80).

I must agree that it's not universal and there are a lot of long-lasting things out there, but it gets worse and worse.
Also, the way most big companies work really is suicidal.
I wouldn't blame the current capitalism if our economy wouldn't be on a constant crash course because of it. (also just to clarify: I prefer capitalism over communism, it's just that we're apparently not able to do it RIGHT)

You admit cars are much better (durable) than before. If that takes an onboard computer that you yourself cannot fix, I guess you can considder it a dual edged sword. But to me it's just a good innovation. And this issue has ALWAYS been around; in medieval times you would see a specialist for stuff we now easily can do ourselves at home. This is because technology in general is hard to fully grasp, no matter what the level it is at. For example, I can program and make any computer do whatever I want. I can rebuild it and build new ones no problem. But can I invent an entire new CPU from scratch? Nope. Maybe *everyone* can do that on the Enterprise... but then they'll be looking for a genius with a massive laboratory who can build a new warpcore that's faster than the current one...

Bottom line: I can't fix a car, but I can fix any PC problem. Guess I'll put that money towards car repairs, like once they paid the town witch grain to cure their lepracy... ?

And specifically about car manufacturers making them hard to fix on purpose:
PURE nonsense! They want a reputation for never breaking down/low cost to run it year by year. They have ZERO interest in keeping garages in business! Companies truly associated with that company make money selling the car, not milking it for repairs. That's just bad business for them.

So what, your father was lacking the needed tool. A tools who's need is screamingly obvious?

This is the cars companies fault?

Smack him upside the head and tell him to get an OBD-II scanner. Having a car with an on board computer and not having one of those, is like bitching about not having a basic wrench set. Really.

Two things:

- First, risking losing the warranty? Yeah, right.

- Second, cars even have a plastic cover under the bonnet. You're not supposed to mess around with the engine.

Jesus freakin' christ, is there anything that wasn't better in the old days? This is all I see on the internet these days. And the sad thing is that most people who say these things are at most 25, which means they didn't even get to live the "good ol' days".

What the hell internet? Why so whiney?