Cultural appropriation

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Addendum_Forthcoming:

Also, a dimension to this and a really good example of cultural appropriation in terms of the weight and designs of historiography and structural interpretation of the past and a nation's connectivity to it, was the Historikerstreit in the mid 80s(ish).

Ok, i'll bite.

How is the Historikerstreit an example of cultural appropriation ? Who is suppossded to have appropriated which cultural elements here ?

Satinavian:
Ok, i'll bite.

How is the Historikerstreit an example of cultural appropriation ? Who is suppossded to have appropriated which cultural elements here ?

Well it's more so the mechanics of activity that sees people in power actively distance themselves to the past by painting over elements of it, while they ape the language and 'colours' of its people that they have historically or currently wronged as if to assuage any real hard questions couched in self-awareness.

See ... what LGBTQ groups wanted is a formal apology and a formal promise that it will never happen again. Never. Put it in fucking print, have it on a wall where representatives have to look at it. Remind themselves that it should never happen again. And it took them 70 years to get it ... even while politicians pretended like they were allies to said people but made up excuses like;

"But it's opening up old wounds..."

"Can't you be happy with the liberties we've given you...?"

"But that was then and this is now ..."

That a nation can take slices of even its own past, isolate them arbitrarily as if a construct beholden only to itself with no other dimensions, remove the mechanics of its transgressions that still has a basis before and after that arbitrary segregation of cultural dynamics, and even paint that as being 'an ally of the afflicted' all the while they silence the memory and critique of the people who suffered telling them that's bullshit.

That 'cultural appropriation' has a multitude of dimensions to it.

Like all those people co-opting symbology of LGBTQ movement solidarity, then acting all butthurt when people who live those hardships tell them they're not being very pleasant people by co-opting the message and culture of that group that has arisen from said hardships when they don't seem to take onboard what they're actually saying.

(Edit)

Might I also point out, that the dialogue of faux progressive politicians and conservative historians, historiographers, and philosophers of West Germany is eerily fucking similar to, say, how Australian conservative politicians usedto talk about having a formal apology to Aboriginal Australians.

Eerily fucking similar.

More than eager to pretend likethey were friends to Aboriginal communities, but danced aroundthe idea of a formal government apology over the Stolen Generations.

Basically the idea of a group that is in power facing its history, facing the idea that is has co-opted the idea of being a 'beneficiary' even as they undermine the basics of actual reconciliation. Basically Aboriginal Reconciliation was our 'miniature Historikerstreit' ... with numerous historians, historiographers, and politicians weighing in.

Like politicians that go to a Mardi Gras event in Sydney, talk up how much they're friends of the LGBTQ community ... then go ahead and petition to slash funding in homeless welfare and mental health programs that overwhelmingly impact LGBTQ youth to an inordinate degree.

Or remain completely silent when other politicians spout off openly homophobic or transphobic rhetoric... thinking it's utterly fine that the LGBTQ taxpayers should have to put up with a government that does that and grants that 'ally' of a politician a wall of silence in a 'free, egalitarian society' ... and yet still pretend like basic liberalism and common decency doesn't die in quiet whimpers and fabricated divides in what should be a fundamentally understood condition of our collective humanity.

Arguably the Australian 'History Wars' is another example of a "Historikerstreited" moment (to coin a word) and as an example of cultural appropriation, by a whole lot of historians that believed they were 'middle fencers' but in actuality were (and are) perhaps more patronizing than the blatant apologists themselves.

That Australians may 'wear the colours' of a multicultural society and speak volumes of its success and "egalitarian" nature, but then all too quickly make excuses for the power dynamics that see them elevated higher than those they espouse support for. Co-opting the 'colours' of people, while undermining or actively refusing any significant changes to the power dynamics of a society or recognizing the horrors of the past (and present) and making true peace with that.

It's almost as if they would rather a shield against criticism, rather than an actual moral principle to guide them that is underpinned by the basic precepts of moral behaviour ... that of consistency of application and assessment.

Bit rich to pretend like you believe in a free, egalitarian society, publicly espouse how you want to see every child feel safe, secure, and have the capacity to achieve all they can be ... do a whole bunch of photoshoots pretending to listen to advocates like myself sending you dozens of emails every year about regional problems from publicly resourced and backed studies... And not perceive overt numbers of disproportionately affected LGBTQ youth in terms of worsening access to housing, education and medicine as problematic in terms of pursuing a truly meritocratic society.

Because, you know... a lot of us are trying to reach out, and merely pretending to be on our side and 'wearing our colours' while doing fuck all, or even failing to bring it up for public debate ... or even when we do the hard work for them by compiling a list of effective policy reform on key issues ... isn't exactly helping.

And that is very much an example of cultural appropriation and trying to co-opt the message of a people that should be heard in full and undiluted.

You'd find it remarkable the number of politicians who will stop at nothing to use us as a billboard to be elected, but then trying desperately to actually get them to look at the information we've collected is like pulling teeth.

Unions are particularly bad. Like chasing up the complaints of transgender employee bias in representation and workplace investigations of unlawful dismissal that many of them had. #NotAllWorkersoftheWorld, apparently. It's almost as if so many of them are in it solely for the money rather than a more empowered workforce of their peers.

So these are people that 'wear the colours' of others. Pretend to represent their interests. Take their money while doing it. And yet fail of their own accord and lack of moral principle and moral consistency to do so. All of which, very much a factor of cultural appropriation. It fulfils all the criterion and a pretty good example of it in turn.

It signals a pretty fucking ludicrous state when we had to reach out to people in the Sydney Business Chamber and the Department of Education, to actually help organize a meeting between some advocates for transgender equality and state political representatives on issues only tangentially related to them.

It's pretty fucked up if I'm going to be honest, when some of these people, when it suits them, call themselves "allies" of the trans community... and then ignore us when we have empirically backed data on the LGBTQ community they should witness and actually take onboard.

And the cherry on the sundae? After going through all of that, expected to be thankful to your "ally" for simply hearing you out (as opposed to actually acting on the information). That's a sour taste, right there. Bitter like rancid lemon juice. But you pretend, naturally. How such a wonderful friend we've found in them. Better to kill your dignity sooner rather than later, it will make such common experiences easier to bear with good graces.

But then again, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts someone like you won't ever go through that, will you?

StatusNil:
Dear Fellow White People,

These times call for greater sensitivity towards other cultures, so let's stay respectfully in "our lane" for once. Please, NO sombreros and tequila for Cinco De Mayo! No, this year, why not celebrate Diecisiete de Mayo instead, in honour of the second Battle of Puebla, a decisive victory for the French that led to sending the President of Mexico into exile? I hope you will follow my lead in donning a beret and getting smashed on quality champagne whilst sampling an assortment of fine cheeses on the 17th!

image

That's our constitutional anniversary, keep the frog nonsense to yourself. It's also the day the Irish end their Saint Patrick's day hangover.

Catnip1024:
Exactly the same argument can be put forward regarding African tribal dances and traditions.

And to what extent are these in a syllabus? Remember, we're talking about what is formally taught by the education system here. Such things may be incidentally covered where interesting or relevant - but so will odd snippets of German culture.

American culture is overwhelmingly white (European-derived)

Really? Really?

Yes, really.

Let's start wiith your example of Elvis, who derived his music from black music. There are two angles to respond to that:

1) But what about all the other music? Now what about films and television. Politics. Art. Military. Philosophy. Business. Science. Literature. Et cetera. It's easy to point at a few obvious examples of major contribution of black people to US culture. But you start thinking about the entire USA's cultural output, suddenly it's very small. For a start, some 85%+ of the population of the USA is (/was, depending on where we place Hispanics) white. Even assuming equal distribution of input to culture from population, that would mean it is 85%+ white. And bear in mind the social, economic and political suppression of black people will almost inevitably have negatively impacted their relative cultural output.

2) Elvis might have derived his music from black music and made it huge. But he's white, and his sources were significantly less successful. Indeed, many might not realise Elvis borrowed from black culture so heavily - let's note Elvis himself denied it. The impact of black culture is thus marginalised in perception even where real (less so these days as we're better at pointing it out).

Look at all the iconic cultural movements that originated in the US. A large proportion of them are heavily influenced by black cultural scenes.

Seriously, you stop and think about all the aspects of culture (e.g. as some areas above) and start thinking about how little black people contributed to - were de facto blocked from contributing to - many of them throughout US history.

By the way guys, I hope none of you put up or enjoy christmas trees because that is CULTURAL APPROPRIATION. My protestant nobility is NOT your xmas decoration!

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
By the way guys, I hope none of you put up or enjoy christmas trees because that is CULTURAL APPROPRIATION. My protestant nobility is NOT your xmas decoration!

And now this post is back and my reply has disappeared. In case you did not receive my original reply, here is another.

From my understanding Christmas Trees are pagan not Christian and the Bible specifically calls them a pagan ritual against god and condemns it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-19/the-history-of-the-christmas-tree/8106078

Jeremiah 10:2-4 10:2 The Lord says,?Do not start following pagan religious practices. Do not be in awe of signs that occur in the skyeven though the nations hold them in awe. 3 For the religion of these people is worthless.They cut down a tree in the forest,and a craftsman makes it into an idol with his tools. 4 He decorates it with overlays of silver and gold.He uses hammer and nails to fasten it together so that it will not fall over.

Isaiah 44:14-15 44:14 He cuts down cedars and acquires a cypress or an oak.He gets trees from the forest;he plants a cedar and the rain makes it grow. 15 A man uses it to make a fire; he takes some of it and warms himself.Yes, he kindles a fire and bakes bread.Then he makes a god and worships it;he makes an idol and bows down to it.

Jeremiah 3:13 3:13 However, you must confess that you have done wrong, and that you have rebelled against the Lord your God.You must confess that you have given yourself to foreign gods under every green tree,and have not obeyed my commands,? says the Lord.

So would this not be a case of the Christians appropriating Pagan rituals even though their own religion specifically condemns it?

Xsjadoblayde:
snipped because I am actually replying to another post of yours

Your last post on this thread keeps appearing and then disappearing.

Agema:
And to what extent are these in a syllabus? Remember, we're talking about what is formally taught by the education system here. Such things may be incidentally covered where interesting or relevant - but so will odd snippets of German culture.

Well, you don't have a German history month.

I can't speak for the American curriculum, so I won't, but in the UK, in my experience, far less time was spent on European cultures (barring your historical Roman / Viking lessons) than was spent on the rest of the world - largely through RE and that other unnamed bit of time that was effectively a "citizenship" lesson. Let's be honest, from school I would barely have any idea that there were religious differences within Christianity, let alone the fact that even that decade people were at war over them, and that people had died less than 60 miles from where I was as a result.

1) But what about all the other music? Now what about films and television. Politics. Art. Military. Philosophy. Business. Science. Literature. Et cetera. It's easy to point at a few obvious examples of major contribution of black people to US culture. But you start thinking about the entire USA's cultural output, suddenly it's very small. For a start, some 85%+ of the population of the USA is (/was, depending on where we place Hispanics) white. Even assuming equal distribution of input to culture from population, that would mean it is 85%+ white. And bear in mind the social, economic and political suppression of black people will almost inevitably have negatively impacted their relative cultural output.

Well, considering pretty much the entire music scene onwards was formed from the same roots, I'd call that a major impact. Then consider the explosion of rap and hip-hop. It's hard to think of any music in the last 50 years that has no influence from black culture.

As for the rest - the majority of those do not really make up a culture. People by and large don't care who runs a corporation or how. The make-up of the armed forces does not affect their everyday life. Art? Are you talking about the highbrow modern stuff that nobody but rich people cares about, the classical stuff that traditionalists like, or the graffiti scenes which far more people encounter and which again, is heavily influenced by black US culture. Philosophy - again, formal philosophy is not the only measure of philosophical achievement. There are inherent philosophies, for better or worse, that come out of the other scenes - your jazz scenes, your hip-hop.

I'd also throw cuisine into there. Large parts of which take from the southern US Black cuisine. And sports - you have 4 major sports in the US, (at least) one of which is disproportionately played by black players, and of which the leading icons are heavily made up of black players.

2) Elvis might have derived his music from black music and made it huge. But he's white, and his sources were significantly less successful. Indeed, many might not realise Elvis borrowed from black culture so heavily - let's note Elvis himself denied it. The impact of black culture is thus marginalised in perception even where real (less so these days as we're better at pointing it out).

The Scots deny that kilts were previously a Greek thing, but that doesn't diminish the fact that they are. People denying the influence black culture has had on the US does not actually diminish it.

Seriously, you stop and think about all the aspects of culture (e.g. as some areas above) and start thinking about how little black people contributed to - were de facto blocked from contributing to - many of them throughout US history.

And again, imo those are not particularly the ones which really impact culture. People benefit from science, but never really followed it until the recent fad of celebrity scientists.

Catnip1024:
Well, you don't have a German history month.

This territory has been covered. Do catch up.

but in the UK, in my experience, far less time was spent on European cultures (barring your historical Roman / Viking lessons) than was spent on the rest of the world

Look, school does not explicitly teach foreign cultures. Full stop. It's not what school does. There is no GCSE in "French culture" or "Indonesian culture". You get aspects of culture relevant to explaining things school does teach where necessary (like when doing foreign languages). And every once in a while an enthuasiastic teacher might decide to concentrate on something optional.

As for the rest - the majority of those do not really make up a culture.

Stop right there. That initial axiom is such utter bollocks that there's no point considering any of the stuff after and based on it.

The Scots deny that kilts were previously a Greek thing

Gibberish. Kilt does not mean any pleated skirt. Just because someone made a sword way back in history does not mean katanas aren't Japanese. Juggernauts are not not Indian just because there are other religious wagons in the world.

People denying the influence black culture has had on the US does not actually diminish it.

True: it mostly diminishes black people.

And again, imo those are not particularly the ones which really impact culture. People benefit from science, but never really followed it until the recent fad of celebrity scientists.

Yeah, sure. There was no cultural impact of things like lightbulbs and record players, the first aeroplane, atom bomb, moon landing at all. Nor have any Americans been inspired to believe their nation a place technological progress and rationality, or write science fiction, no enthusiasm for advancement, etc.

Agema:
Stop right there. That initial axiom is such utter bollocks that there's no point considering any of the stuff after and based on it.

You mean all the stuff that actually supports it? God forbid someone makes an assertion and then provides some substantiation to go with it. Best ignore all the substantive stuff and dismiss the lot off-hand.

But, you know what? If you want to play that game, two can play at that. So, as to the rest of what you said - "gibberish".

Catnip1024:
Well, you don't have a German history month.

I can't speak for the American curriculum, so I won't, but in the UK, in my experience, far less time was spent on European cultures (barring your historical Roman / Viking lessons) than was spent on the rest of the world - largely through RE and that other unnamed bit of time that was effectively a "citizenship" lesson. Let's be honest, from school I would barely have any idea that there were religious differences within Christianity, let alone the fact that even that decade people were at war over them, and that people had died less than 60 miles from where I was as a result.

Your experience of the UK curriculum is significantly different to mine, then. I had lessons which focused on the specific differences between denominations of Christianity.

Catnip1024:
You mean all the stuff that actually supports it?

Look, if you think culture is nothing more than auditory, visual and literary arts then your understanding of culture is horribly deficient. It's as simple as that.

Culture is incredibly wide-ranging. It is a vast general output of intellectual production including but going way beyond arts; it also covers traditions, customs, social behaviours. Democracy, for instance, is part of a nation's culture; the USA has it strongly, somewhere like Saudi Arabia does not.

After that, you're unreasonably trying to dismiss certain inconvenient parts of intellectual output. Fine arts may be relatively little seen, but they influence vast quantities of more popular art and graphic design; similarly haute couture sets trends that end up in high street fashion a few years later. Never mind that all that popular stuff is itself culture: the design of an iPod or iPhone is culture. To take philosophy, another thread is going on about Jordan Peterson, and if you can pick up on anything from that, it's how seemingly remote philosophy can have profound effects on societal beliefs. All these things really matter.

Lil devils x:
And now this post is back and my reply has disappeared. In case you did not receive my original reply, here is another.

From my understanding Christmas Trees are pagan not Christian and the Bible specifically calls them a pagan ritual against god and condemns it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-19/the-history-of-the-christmas-tree/8106078

Jeremiah 10:2-4 10:2 The Lord says,?Do not start following pagan religious practices. Do not be in awe of signs that occur in the skyeven though the nations hold them in awe. 3 For the religion of these people is worthless.They cut down a tree in the forest,and a craftsman makes it into an idol with his tools. 4 He decorates it with overlays of silver and gold.He uses hammer and nails to fasten it together so that it will not fall over.

Isaiah 44:14-15 44:14 He cuts down cedars and acquires a cypress or an oak.He gets trees from the forest;he plants a cedar and the rain makes it grow. 15 A man uses it to make a fire; he takes some of it and warms himself.Yes, he kindles a fire and bakes bread.Then he makes a god and worships it;he makes an idol and bows down to it.

Jeremiah 3:13 3:13 However, you must confess that you have done wrong, and that you have rebelled against the Lord your God.You must confess that you have given yourself to foreign gods under every green tree,and have not obeyed my commands,? says the Lord.

So would this not be a case of the Christians appropriating Pagan rituals even though their own religion specifically condemns it?

German nobility were the ones to bring christmas trees to mainstream popularity in the way we see them today but sure, if you want to go back to the roots.

As a blond haired, grey eyes pale skin German: my forefathers pagan rituals are NOT your xmas decoration.

Silvanus:
Your experience of the UK curriculum is significantly different to mine, then. I had lessons which focused on the specific differences between denominations of Christianity.

I take it back - we did touch on it in the Tudor sense. But still, all in all very little time on significant things like that (and the equivalent also significant schisms within Islam, to be fair) in comparison to "the views of major religions on drugs" type topics.

I suppose my real gist on that is, school RE / citizenship focuses on the wrong stuff. Or at least misses out a lot of the very important stuff.

Catnip1024:
I suppose my real gist on that is, school RE / citizenship focuses on the wrong stuff. Or at least misses out a lot of the very important stuff.

A lot depends on your school. I have an A level in RE, which in my school was called "philosophy and theology". Philosophy meant European analytical philosophy. Theology meant Christian theology (with a heavy slant towards Anglo-American ecumenical Protestantism).

GCSE RE has a standardised curriculum which is specifically based in comparative religious studies focusing on the "major religions" including Christianity. It is specifically designed to give a basic introduction to lots of different religious traditions, rather than detailed information about any one.

The main issue with RE is that it's often atrociously taught due to a crippling shortage of qualified RE teachers. Heck, if everyone who did an RS degree went into teaching, there still wouldn't be enough to meet demand.

I would add, however, that Christianity is almost certainly the largest religious community in Africa, and in several other places like South Korea, with significant minorities in the middle east and all over the world. It's not really synonymous with "European" culture.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
As a blond haired, grey eyes pale skin German: my forefathers pagan rituals are NOT your xmas decoration.

So, because every single one of these "parodies" have missed it (I liked StatusNil's one though, that was pretty funny) the problem isn't maintaining the cultural purity or addressing the property rights of dead people. If it was, then oh boy.. you'd better get that wallet ready, son. The problem is having an equitable basis for cultural exchange in the present.

evilthecat:
So, because every single one of these "parodies" have missed it (I liked StatusNil's one though, that was pretty funny) the problem isn't maintaining the cultural purity or addressing the property rights of dead people. The problem is having an equitable basis for cultural exchange in the present.

And who are you to tell me its fair or reasonable to steal my christmas trees? This is NOT ok. You're using MY peoples culture to celebrate an event my honorable ancestors did not even have in that form. If you can't see why this is *deeply problematic* our cultural exchange ends here.

evilthecat:
A lot depends on your school. I have an A level in RE, which in my school was called "philosophy and theology". Philosophy meant European analytical philosophy. Theology meant Christian theology (with a heavy slant towards Anglo-American ecumenical Protestantism).

There is something to that. I never took it past GCSE, but we barely even touched on the various scriptures.

GCSE RE has a standardised curriculum which is specifically based in comparative religious studies focusing on the "major religions" including Christianity. It is specifically designed to give a basic introduction to lots of different religious traditions, rather than detailed information about any one.

And that concept I don't particularly mind. What I don't comprehend is why the focus is on the particular things it was - like I mentioned, we had numerous lessons on the views of various religions on topics like drugs, rather than any of the actual major teachings and even a brief history of said religion. From a hindsight point of view, I think that historical overviews would be far more useful - I mean, most of my initial understanding of the Sunni - Shia issues came from strategy games, and that's quite a key thing to know to understand the state of the Middle East. Quite what Sunni's think about weed is possibly of secondary concern.

I would add, however, that Christianity is almost certainly the largest religious community in Africa, and in several other places like South Korea, with significant minorities in the middle east and all over the world. It's not really synonymous with "European" culture.

It is in the way it is taught in schools. More's the pity.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
You're using MY peoples culture to celebrate an event my honorable ancestors did not even have in that form.

And you're using your ancestors to try and win an argument on the internet.

Your ancestors are dead. Their culture is dead. Noone cares about your ancestors or their dead culture, except to the extent it is significant to the experience of people who are alive.

Or to put this another way. The problem is not actually a white girl wearing a Qipao to prom. The problem is that an Asian American girl wearing a Qipao to prom would inevitably be treated very differently, and not in a good way. The dress is not offensive, the treatment of Chinese culture and people in the US is offensive.

Come back when you can say the same about your sparkly trees.

evilthecat:
And you're using your ancestors to try and win an argument on the internet.

Your ancestors are dead. Their culture is dead. Noone cares about your ancestors or their dead culture, except to the extent it is significant to the experience of people who are alive.

Or to put this another way. The problem is not actually a white girl wearing a Qipao to prom. The problem is that an Asian American girl wearing a Qipao to prom would inevitably be treated very differently, and not in a good way. The dress is not offensive, the treatment of Chinese culture and people in the US is offensive.

Come back when you can say the same about your sparkly trees.

No, I'm really just using them to poke a bit of fun at you and a few others. I summed up my "real" take on cultural appropriation in a previous post 2 or so pages ago. I don't care about sparkly trees - neither them nor qipaos in any context are, how would you say, "problematic" (apart from a funeral perhaps, might be in bad taste there).

Anyway, I hope you have a nice THURSDAY.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
No, I'm really just using them to poke a bit of fun at you and a few others.

I know.

I'm pointing out why you failed.

evilthecat:
I know.

I'm pointing out why you failed.

I'm amused and your ideology isn't leading anywhere so I'll respectfully disagree with that assessment.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

Lil devils x:
And now this post is back and my reply has disappeared. In case you did not receive my original reply, here is another.

From my understanding Christmas Trees are pagan not Christian and the Bible specifically calls them a pagan ritual against god and condemns it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-19/the-history-of-the-christmas-tree/8106078

Jeremiah 10:2-4 10:2 The Lord says,?Do not start following pagan religious practices. Do not be in awe of signs that occur in the skyeven though the nations hold them in awe. 3 For the religion of these people is worthless.They cut down a tree in the forest,and a craftsman makes it into an idol with his tools. 4 He decorates it with overlays of silver and gold.He uses hammer and nails to fasten it together so that it will not fall over.

Isaiah 44:14-15 44:14 He cuts down cedars and acquires a cypress or an oak.He gets trees from the forest;he plants a cedar and the rain makes it grow. 15 A man uses it to make a fire; he takes some of it and warms himself.Yes, he kindles a fire and bakes bread.Then he makes a god and worships it;he makes an idol and bows down to it.

Jeremiah 3:13 3:13 However, you must confess that you have done wrong, and that you have rebelled against the Lord your God.You must confess that you have given yourself to foreign gods under every green tree,and have not obeyed my commands,? says the Lord.

So would this not be a case of the Christians appropriating Pagan rituals even though their own religion specifically condemns it?

German nobility were the ones to bring christmas trees to mainstream popularity in the way we see them today but sure, if you want to go back to the roots.

As a blond haired, grey eyes pale skin German: my forefathers pagan rituals are NOT your xmas decoration.

Since when did you think I was a Christian? I was tied to a chair and made to read the bible aloud by Christians. I was forced to translate the Hebrew bible BY Christians. I have actually read the bible multiple times unlike the majority of Christians. That does not mean in any way that I am one. Though the blonde haired, blue eyed viking German napping on the couch next to me right now does use Trees, but he is not a Christian either. I guess he is entitled to as much as you are though.

Lil devils x:
Since when did you think I was a Christian? I was tied to a chair and made to read the bible aloud by Christians. I was forced to translate the Hebrew bible BY Christians. I have actually read the bible multiple times unlike the majority of Christians. That does not mean in any way that I am one. Though the blonde haired, blue eyed viking German napping on the couch next to me right now does use Trees, but he is not a Christian either. I guess he is entitled to as much as you are though.

If he is a viking he is not a German! Cultural appropriation!

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

Lil devils x:
Since when did you think I was a Christian? I was tied to a chair and made to read the bible aloud by Christians. I was forced to translate the Hebrew bible BY Christians. I have actually read the bible multiple times unlike the majority of Christians. That does not mean in any way that I am one. Though the blonde haired, blue eyed viking German napping on the couch next to me right now does use Trees, but he is not a Christian either. I guess he is entitled to as much as you are though.

If he is a viking he is not a German! Cultural appropriation!

LOL! I call him a viking because he looks too much like the guy who plays Ragnar on the show " vikings". He is most definitely German and his family is traced back to the early Germanic Tribes.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

I'm amused and your ideology isn't leading anywhere so I'll respectfully disagree with that assessment.

Is 'ideology' shorthand for 'having a point'?

A neat (and timely!) article from the Atlantic on cultural appropriation, for everyone's perusal:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/cultural-appropriation/559802/

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Is 'ideology' shorthand for 'having a point'?

No, it just means "ideology". Now eat from that trash can!

Lil devils x:
LOL! I call him a viking because he looks too much like the guy who plays Ragnar on the show " vikings". He is most definitely German and his family is traced back to the early Germanic Tribes.

Out of interest and not out of doubt, how does one go about tracing ones family back that far? I just assume I'm from somewhere around this rough area of Europe due to ticking all the boxes but I don't know exactly where and it would be interesting to find out.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

No, it just means "ideology". Now eat from that trash can!

So it's a non-critique? When did calling something an 'ideology' become an insult, anyways?

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Is 'ideology' shorthand for 'having a point'?

No, it just means "ideology". Now eat from that trash can!

Lil devils x:
LOL! I call him a viking because he looks too much like the guy who plays Ragnar on the show " vikings". He is most definitely German and his family is traced back to the early Germanic Tribes.

Out of interest and not out of doubt, how does one go about tracing ones family back that far? I just assume I'm from somewhere around this rough area of Europe due to ticking all the boxes but I don't know exactly where and it would be interesting to find out.

If the site will stay stable long enough I will finally be able to answer you ( again). The easy route is to be from a prominent family whose history remains unbroken and whose name appears all over medieval texts linking you back to original clans. This in combination with DNA would be able to place you pretty easily. As in his case, both sides of his family had remained in Germany from the early times and not moved from the area giving him a pretty easy family history to trace.

If your family has moved a good bit, but you do have some family history, and your families accurate names (both sides) you can start searching archives and hope that you get a lead that keeps going. If you do not have much information to go on, or possibly had a name change or variation, you can always go with DNA tests and see if you get a lead to a specific region. You could then go to that region and search their archives and hope to get lucky.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
So it's a non-critique? When did calling something an 'ideology' become an insult, anyways?

See the classical Marxist view on and very definition of ideology I suppose? It didn't happen yesterday.

Disregarding that, if we just assumed we both disagree with that view the critique would lay in the rather obvious "isn't going anywhere" rather than the word "ideology" itself. So pick your poison.

Lil devils x:
If the site will stay stable long enough I will finally be able to answer you ( again). The easy route is to be from a prominent family whose history remains unbroken and whose name appears all over medieval texts linking you back to original clans. This in combination with DNA would be able to place you pretty easily. As in his case, both sides of his family had remained in Germany from the early times and not moved from the area giving him a pretty easy family history to trace.

If your family has moved a good bit, but you do have some family history, and your families accurate names (both sides) you can start searching archives and hope that you get a lead that keeps going. If you do not have much information to go on, or possibly had a name change or variation, you can always go with DNA tests and see if you get a lead to a specific region. You could then go to that region and search their archives and hope to get lucky.

Interesting, I should really try and dig out what I can but never get around to it. The problem is my family got the ever loving fuck torn out of it by the NSDAP and WW2 and only just had enough time to birth my grandmother before almost everyone - and I mean almost everyone - got killed in an assortment of Russian fronts, labour camps, bombings, you name it. So there wasn't really anyone left to pass on the knowledge of where the hell our family comes from.

Still, theres probably a paper trail left somewhere especially in the land that loves bureaucracy way to much to throw away birth certificates or whatever.

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:

See the classical Marxist view on and very definition of ideology I suppose? It didn't happen yesterday.

Disregarding that, if we just assumed we both disagree with that view the critique would lay in the rather obvious "isn't going anywhere" rather than the word "ideology" itself. So pick your poison.

But that's dumb. Scientific method? Ideological. Pedagogical theory concerning secondary students? Ideological. Political theory? Ideological. Historiography? Ideological. Art theory in the purpose of artistic rendition of sending either a transcendent message or an intertextual one? Ideological. Colour theory, fashion design and evolution of design? Ideological.

And none of those have to be couched in Marxist structuralism. Hell, it can be even its antithesis or synthesis.

Anything that relates to a description or hypothesis of the human condition, metaethics, and organizational relationships told in a coherent and meaningful manner is inherently ideological.

Moreover, why exactly was their critique 'not going anywhere'? It describes profiling of symbolism that depersonalizes people pretty well. The mechanics make sense. Moreover we can both recognize why it's bad, surely? How your Christmas tree example doesn't actually depersonalize yourself by another person's relationship to their Christmas trees?

RiseOfTheWhiteWolf:
See the classical Marxist view on and very definition of ideology I suppose?

You don't know what that is, do you?

I'll give you a clue. That Zizek quote you just referenced is about the unavoidability of ideology, because literally everything comes from the trash can..

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Moreover, why exactly was their critique 'not going anywhere'? It describes profiling of symbolism that depersonalizes people pretty well. The mechanics make sense. Moreover we can both recognize why it's bad, surely? How your Christmas tree example doesn't actually depersonalize yourself by another person's relationship to their Christmas trees?

Because even if it was valid critique - I don't think it is for reasons other people have listed a thousand times - its still hard to impossible to turn that into tangible go-to methods for societal conduct and even more so into legislation. Thus it leads nowhere. I am not of the opinion that all our problems need immediate, urgent action but we on the left can no longer allow ourselves the luxury of waxing philosophicals and dreaming up theory if its incredibly unlikely to produce an end product which will actually effect any meaningful number of lives.

evilthecat:
You don't know what that is, do you?

I'll give you a clue. That Zizek quote you just referenced is about the unavoidability of ideology, because literally everything comes from the trash can..

Yes I do evil. Despite not being Gods gift to intellectuality, that roll already being claimed by yourself of course, other people do read books. The "classic marxist" and "Zizek" takes on ideology are different; in fact, Zizek actively rejects the other. My reference to the "classic marxist" position was me replying to the question of when ideology became an insult. I'd leave you a clue too but I don't know how many more you need when its right there, black on white, a few posts above your last.

image

sniff

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