Super Mario Galaxy 2

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT
 

F-I-D-O:

OK, Left for Dead is not a good idea for beginners. They don't really have time to learn how to move and look around because if they are distracted they DIE. Plus, a newbie wouldn't fit with L4D because (more than likely) if the zombies start closing in, s/he will run. And then get killed by being separated.

You're probably right. I was thinking portal too, but I don't know how representative Portal is of the whole shoot and kill things genre. I guess for the controls it's good. Half Life 2 might be the happy medium, but the creepy atmosphere might be off putting to some non-gamers. I guess it really depends.

At the risk of sounding sacrilegious, Chrono Trigger has not aged well. Fantastic as that game was, I find it possible that a modern player would find the retro graphics, sound and even turn based gameplay hard to get past (though the last one is a matter of taste). I think something more modern is required. The trouble is, most modern RPGs are so unintuitive that no new person would find them fun.

I'd recommend final Fantasy X.

Basic navigation of an avatar through a 3D world.
Simple enough story to follow.
gradual difficulty curve.
Action is entirely FMV or combat.
Combat waits for you.

after the turn based combat of JRPG I'd move them over to a hack-n-slash/beat-em-up

get them used to the idea of real time fighting

if not that then maybe some lightgun games (Time Crisis)

then move then onto a platformer (Sands of Time, Kingdom Hearts, Ratchet, God of War)

some more advanced 3d gaming navigation

I can't think of any good examples from this gen right now >_>

Mario has finally succumbed to the temptation of the fast buck.

Galaxy 2 wasn't motivated by greed. It was motivated by the desire to more fully realize the toolset the developers had created with Galaxy. This has been stated multiple times.

I also don't understand how enjoying "more of the same" amounts to being "cowed and obedient." For myself, at least, the best games I've played have left me not just wanting more, but more of what I just finished playing. For once since SMB2 JP (which was released 24 years ago), Nintendo has provided that, and for one of its most malleable toolsets yet no less.

I understand your perspective, but I feel you're unfairly accusing Nintendo of acting under less than benign motivations.

BlueHighwind:
My point here is that Mario is perfectly fine the way it is. If the people who have played this game grow sick of it, there's always a younger generation of little kids willing to play it. I don't think anybody in Nintendo designed Super Mario Galaxy 2 for thirty-year-old curmudgeons with sweet hats.

Well said. You remind me of something I read somewhere about Sonic 4 at E3. The writer found himself personally dismayed by it, but had to concede it still had purpose as he learned of a child glued to a demo booth.

I firmly believe that while people may never outgrow video games, certain games and franchises may simply cease to be for those people as they get older. And nine times out of ten, the reason isn't because the game or franchise has changed; those people have.

as a suggestion for Roger Ebert: portal maybe? The controls aren't that hard, the difficulty curve runs smoothly and it has been praised as one of the best games ever, not only by the more mainstream critics, but also by yahtzee himself.

I found it funny that IGN gave Super Mario Galaxy 2 a perfect 10.

No wait, not funny. I found it sad. Very, very depressing.

Interesting of you to bring that up now, because only moments ago I played DeathSpank with my girlfriend and it was literally the first time she managed to navigate the levels instantly, so maybe that top-down semi 3d gameplay might be a good place to start for a non gamer.
Problem of course is that those games are usually RPG´s and they´re never exactly accesible on the long run, even if they´re fairly simple. But the navigation works.

I actually always feelt that Mario 64 was a great introduction to 3D for me at the time. Cause it allowed you to explore and fool around a lot.

well, how about Trine? Its not THAT difficult, both graphics and sound are VERY pretty, its controls are accesible enough and doesn't look as childish as LBP can.

In LBP the controls AREN'T floaty but just different to Mario and most 2D platformers. Or rather they are floaty in a way but not using floaty as a pejorative, just a general description; if you can't deal with the controls because they're different then that doesn't mean that they're immediately terrible. Take some time to get used to them or just say that you're bad with those type of jumps; not that those type of jumps are bad.

Alternatively wait for LBP2 where you can change the gravity in the levels you make anyway and have it play just like Mario.

boredpulmonologist:

F-I-D-O:

OK, Left for Dead is not a good idea for beginners. They don't really have time to learn how to move and look around because if they are distracted they DIE. Plus, a newbie wouldn't fit with L4D because (more than likely) if the zombies start closing in, s/he will run. And then get killed by being separated.

You're probably right. I was thinking portal too, but I don't know how representative Portal is of the whole shoot and kill things genre. I guess for the controls it's good. Half Life 2 might be the happy medium, but the creepy atmosphere might be off putting to some non-gamers. I guess it really depends.

At the risk of sounding sacrilegious, Chrono Trigger has not aged well. Fantastic as that game was, I find it possible that a modern player would find the retro graphics, sound and even turn based gameplay hard to get past (though the last one is a matter of taste). I think something more modern is required. The trouble is, most modern RPGs are so unintuitive that no new person would find them fun.

I would go for portal if I wanted someone introduce directly to the whole first-person thing. Cause it has a great introduction to the gameplay at the beginning. And it's more about solving pussels rather than be good at moving around at the beginning. I've notice that when people often try FPS they often gets lost a lot at the beginning. I think Portals small, and simpel look would make it easier for new players to find it's way in.

boredpulmonologist:

F-I-D-O:

OK, Left for Dead is not a good idea for beginners. They don't really have time to learn how to move and look around because if they are distracted they DIE. Plus, a newbie wouldn't fit with L4D because (more than likely) if the zombies start closing in, s/he will run. And then get killed by being separated.

You're probably right. I was thinking portal too, but I don't know how representative Portal is of the whole shoot and kill things genre. I guess for the controls it's good. Half Life 2 might be the happy medium, but the creepy atmosphere might be off putting to some non-gamers. I guess it really depends.

At the risk of sounding sacrilegious, Chrono Trigger has not aged well. Fantastic as that game was, I find it possible that a modern player would find the retro graphics, sound and even turn based gameplay hard to get past (though the last one is a matter of taste). I think something more modern is required. The trouble is, most modern RPGs are so unintuitive that no new person would find them fun.

It's not for point and kill. But it's a great intro to the mechanics that are the bones of every FPS. After Portal, maybe Halo or Half life, and then an adrenaline packed stress-filled fragfest that is L4D.
About your comment on Chrono trigger
image
:)
I've been playing it on the DS a lot recently, and I felt it was the perfect RPG intro (if you wanted something a tad deeper than Mario). I adore the retro graphics
image
They might not look good on a TV now, but they fit right in on the DS.
And I'm keeping my pixels.
The sound could use some work, and the battle system is only a bit away from Real time. As you're telling party member 2 what to do, party member 1 is being attacked, and party member 3 is attacking. It allowed a faster system, and the fact that the options can slow it down would be great for beginners. It's not the best modern RPG, but I thought it would fit the bill perfectly. Interesting characters, good plot, nice long game, and a great learning curve.
And if they don't want to play with pixelated characters, then I can not teach them.
image
Yeah, sorry about the image heavy post.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Put Mario Galaxy in front of someone who's never played a game before in their lives and see how well they do.

That's my point. And the reason those tutorial thingy's are there are there.
And yes, maybe casual was the wrong word, but it's not exactly aimed at the hardcore audience either, now is it?
And thanks for mentioning me, btw.

I'd say Prototype would be a good game for someone new to gaming. Think about it, easy to learn controls, incredbly fun travel system, simple story... for the beggining and a protaganist who is, admittedley cliche but kind of a blank slate and easier to project onto, if only for the fact that he can jump over buildings and kill people with one punch.

I can't imagine a first-timer handling any 3D game at all. Controls and camera issues are often frustrating to life-long players.

I don't think it's realistic to expect a first-timer to be able to bypass casual games. It's all about the controls.

1. Start with something slow and simple like a turn-based strategy game (think board game, or casino game). Slow paced. No pressure.

2. Introduce reaction and reflexes in a fast-paced puzzle or arcade game like Tetris (only four buttons). Or Space Invaders (three).

3. Introduce character movement and environments but keep the controls easy. Canabalt is a fast-paced, 2D platformer but uses just one button (jump).

4. Now your player is ready for pretty much any classic 2D arcade game including more complete 2D platformers like Mario Bros. And eventually Little Big Planet or even Super Metroid.

5. Now you could branch into many other 2D game styles/elements: top-down real-time strategy, multiplayer, point-and-click adventure, RPG, etc.

6. Ease into 3D. Maybe something "casual" like The Sims 2+ is a good way to introduce camera controls. Driving games are 3D-ish. They've got 2D controls, but with camera issues.

7. Finally try out first- and third-person 3D shooters. Portal might have the perfect pace for an inexperienced player, but the portals are especially disorienting for someone unfamiliar with mouselook.

Well, I got my niece into gaming on her 3rd birthday last year by taking her with me to the game store and letting her pick out a GBA sp and some games. Yeah she wanted some of the usual Disney licensed games (and since they were 2.99 I wasn't going to say no) but she also wanted Super Mario Advance and Metroid Fusion. She worked and worked at playing them until she finally understood how to play them (I find that it's impossible to teach gaming and the only way for one to learn is to actually do it), she now comes over once a week and I take her and get her a new (well to her) game. (What's great is the store I go to with her is ran by mostly females and they make a big deal about her when she comes in and always have little gifts for her like plush game characters or free games that just don't sell-makes her really like the gaming community so she's hooked for life)

A few months ago she wanted Fire Pro Wrestling 2 and she learned it well enough that she made a custom character based on my wrestling outfit I used to wear. Remember, all this is before she is able to read, but she still understands the basics of gaming and the "rules" of it because of trial and error. I didn't just give her Wii Sports (which we all love in the house for just some family time) so she would succeed, I gave her games that test people so she would fail but eventually succeed making that first "Level Complete" all the sweeter to her.

I know all of those are 2D games, but it gives her the basics and makes the jump to 3D games so much easier. When we "dumb down" (for lack of a better term) games to make it easier for people to learn there's no wiggle room. Either the games will be too hard for them or too easy for everyone else. The answer is two fold, you can do what Capcom wisely did with Mega Man 10 and make a difficulty level that takes out all of the challenges that sometimes are a bit too extreme for some people but also the companies have to make the rules of the game fair. What I mean is like back in the 8-bit days when you would have blind leaps in a platformer only to have an enemy camped right on the ledge you had to blindly jump to that kills you. That's not a challenge, that's just unfair.

It's like Jake "the Snake" Roberts once said about the DDT, "It's cruel, but fair". That's what games need to have, a challenge that tests the player but one that can be overcome by playing by the games rules. That's the way to get people to understand how to play games and maybe find the enjoyment that we do from it.

Sorry for the long winded post, but as a last thing, my niece I previously mentioned just asked me when the 3DS comes out because she knows she gets Uncle Chris' DS when he gets one. Adorable...

I had been under the understanding that after finishing Super Mario Shiguru Miamoto went to work on Doki doki panic and Mario 2 was left with a different team. After seeing Mario 2 Shiguru was seriously underwhelmed and knew it wouldn't do very well in the states so he re-pixled the game he had been working on.

Yeah the game is a total rehash and I'm a big fan of new and original but a game doesn't have to be new and original to be fun. Sometimes I'm in the mood for crazy exotic food and sometimes I just want a burger.

F-I-D-O:

It's not for point and kill. But it's a great intro to the mechanics that are the bones of every FPS. After Portal, maybe Halo or Half life, and then an adrenaline packed stress-filled fragfest that is L4D.

True. The only reason I said it is really because it's the one game the more casual people I've played with are drawn to, but they weren't truly casual the way a sister would be. It's more the social aspect to it that was appealing. Whatever, Portal is a good choice. [/quote]

F-I-D-O:

About your comment on Chrono trigger
:)
I've been playing it on the DS a lot recently, and I felt it was the perfect RPG intro (if you wanted something a tad deeper than Mario). I adore the retro graphics]
They might not look good on a TV now, but they fit right in on the DS.
And I'm keeping my pixels.
The sound could use some work, and the battle system is only a bit away from Real time. As you're telling party member 2 what to do, party member 1 is being attacked, and party member 3 is attacking. It allowed a faster system, and the fact that the options can slow it down would be great for beginners. It's not the best modern RPG, but I thought it would fit the bill perfectly. Interesting characters, good plot, nice long game, and a great learning curve.
And if they don't want to play with pixelated characters, then I can not teach them.
Yeah, sorry about the image heavy post.

No problem. Hope you don't me editing them out for the reply.

As much as I thought the story of Chrono Trigger was ground breaking, I was never drawn to the game play as other people. I think it was because I played the game starting last year, but I wasn't drawn the gameplay. It's incredibly unfair to judge a game ten years after it's initial release, but a newbie isn't going to care about that.

I don't know, I can't see many newbies being interested in turn based game play (and Chrono Trigger is barely a step beyond turn based), but it's probably because I've played so many of them, I've gotten bored of any RPG or JRPG that uses a conventional turn based system. I'm more of a The World Ends with You kind of person.

But that's aside from the point. The World Ends with You is the last game I would advise to a newbie. I think the killer is going to be the graphics. You might find the pixel graphics charming, but even facebook games have surpassed the graphics the actual game uses (not the cut-scenes). I see why you'd want to choose that one for it's story, which is so integral to RPGs, but I can see a new gamer losing interest because of the graphics very quickly.

All that said and done, I can't think of a better modern example (Dragon Age?), so maybe you're right. It really depends on the person too I guess.

There's a wealth of indie games like Spewer out there that are reasonably straightforward in terms of platforming, have a nice unique mechanic [in this case, vomiting a variety of useful substances] and have a nice art style and writing. World of Goo, as well.

Other wise, I guess LBP is a solid choice, though I have not played it myself.

Portal would be interesting, too. But I've got a feeling that handing a complete newcomer a first-person game would be rather akin to throwing them in the deep end.

World of Goo is a

similar.squirrel:
There's a wealth of indie games like Spewer out there that are reasonably straightforward in terms of platforming, have a nice unique mechanic [in this case, vomiting a variety of useful substances] and have a nice art style and writing. World of Goo, as well.

Other wise, I guess LBP is a solid choice, though I have not played it myself.

World of Goo is a fantastic choice as well. My worry is that it doesn't really introduce the gamer to anything else as World of Goo is a unique game. I guess to get them interested in games.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
Extra Punctuation: Super Mario Galaxy 2

Yahtzee explains his disappointment with Super Mario Galaxy 2.

Read Full Article

It seems like all you have to do in order to get into an extra punctuation article is disagree with Yahtzee.

YAHTZEE QUICKTIME EVENTS AND JRPGS RULE, BIOSHOCK AND PORTAL ARE TERRIBLE GAMES!!!!!11!!!111!!1111111ONEONEONEONETWO

I forgot to mention in my previous post that you just may not like the guy you're introducing to games. If that's the case, and you don't want them getting into games ever, I would recommend Heroes of Newerth. Most noob-hating game ever.

~Master Rahl

To be fair, the people recommending Shadow of the Colossus were showcasing it as an example of videogame art, and it is definitely that.

My choice however, would be Ico. Why?

1. Yes, it's a 3D space, which takes a bit of getting used to. But it's a gentle open, with lots of time to get used to it. Tell the new player to just screw around in that first room as much as they want.
2. It's the OTHER Fumito Ueda game. And it's damn near as good an example of games as art as SotC.

By the time I reached articles end, I had a good load of old memories of my SNES.
If I were to recommend a game to a completely new person it'd be Super Mario World. Shortly after making that decision I finished the article and saw the statement that the old Mario games shouldn't count. "Hogwash," I say! Super Mario World was and is a great place to start with video games and that's my answer.

I find it interesting that you claim (and I expect it is true) that most people have trouble getting used to 3D gaming. I found that I was actually pretty bad at video games as a kid until I got my hands on Sonic 3D. Then with the addition of Ocarina of Time, it was pretty much me going from "eh, not really sure why my brother is so obsessed with these games" to a real gamer. But your point still stands I guess, since I did have practice on 2D games first, even if they frustrated the hell outta me.

Anyway, I would agree with what someone else said about Super Mario Bros DS. Maybe it's just age and skill, but when I got my hands on that game I expected to have a hard time and instead I was pretty awesome at it. My own biased conclusion being that it's either the same or easier as the original Mario games, and as a classic with improved graphics it's probably a good game to get someone into gaming.

Personal experience with a non-gaming friend, however, has proven that Paper Mario Thousand Year Door has the power to suck in a casual gamer who's only experience with games had been doing ok at Mario Party after a lot of practice and giving up on Halo really fast. (We really wanted a 4th player. Alas, it was not to be.)

boredpulmonologist:

As much as I thought the story of Chrono Trigger was ground breaking, I was never drawn to the game play as other people. I think it was because I played the game starting last year, but I wasn't drawn the gameplay. It's incredibly unfair to judge a game ten years after it's initial release, but a newbie isn't going to care about that.

I don't know, I can't see many newbies being interested in turn based game play (and Chrono Trigger is barely a step beyond turn based), but it's probably because I've played so many of them, I've gotten bored of any RPG or JRPG that uses a conventional turn based system. I'm more of a The World Ends with You kind of person.

But that's aside from the point. The World Ends with You is the last game I would advise to a newbie. I think the killer is going to be the graphics. You might find the pixel graphics charming, but even facebook games have surpassed the graphics the actual game uses (not the cut-scenes). I see why you'd want to choose that one for it's story, which is so integral to RPGs, but I can see a new gamer losing interest because of the graphics very quickly.

All that said and done, I can't think of a better modern example (Dragon Age?), so maybe you're right. It really depends on the person too I guess.

I just got into Chrono Trigger last year as well...
I loved TWEWY, but I thought it would be a hard game for newbies. The pins that you have to train, the food and inventory system, the "fashion level", the clothes, and the battle controls seemed like a lot for a newbie. It's a great game after some experience in the genre, but the problem lies in the (inventive) controls and the (odd) system of armor stats changing depending on zones and the (fun but seemingly overwhelming) pin system (I have close to the max you can carry, and most of them all different pins) would have thrown me off of the genre. Same goes for Dragon's age-it would be a HUGE challenge for anyone new to RPGs.
The only other one I can think of is KOTOR. It's the closet to a deep, entry level RPG I can think of.
Geez, hard to find a good RPG for beginners...

Well, it's been 15 years since I last saw a '2' on the end of a Mario platformer. Most of the time, successful developers who release a sequel on the same console will do something to distinguish it. Some give it a graphical kick (Halo 2), others may expand gameplay and story (KOTOR 2), or introduce new characters and locales to add variety (GTA IV).

Unfortunately, Nintend is being given a free pass by most. People who are content with games that are simply "good." Everything I've Read, Watched, Heard, and Played tells me that Nintendo is trying a new strategy with this title: Recycle.

There is no major graphical upgrade in this game. Neither have they altered the way the game plays or plays out. Instead, we have a character from a previous game, a few new items, and levels that are well designed, but almost undistinguishable from the first game's.

In the case of an FPS, this would be like making a sequel with only a few new levels and a couple more guns, then pricing it as a full game.

And people are giving this game "Perfect Scores."

i got used to 3d movement with quake 2 and 3 on my uncles ps2. they worked for me, just spend a while teaching them how to use the controller with a split screen death match. then when they can move around ok teach them to jump, then shoot then reload etc.

it worked for me when i taught a freind to play gears of war after he hadn't touched a console since the original play station came out

Khaiseri:
It somewhat surprises me the you are defending to a certain degree the Mario games.
But it's OK, I guess, I was never a fan of console games nor any Mario games, so I do not really care.

My question is what you said in the original SMG review if I'm not mistaken, what is Mario going to evolve into now? I mean, it has all the bases covered already.

oooo i have and idea!

TIME TRAVEL!

Mario goes back in time to defeat Bowser before he can do anything bad and has to play through 3d versions of some of his old games, at least at first, then once he suceeds he creates a time paradox that destroys the universe and... then.... something....

Hmmm... I can accept this.

You review had the tone of hating for the sake of hating and didn't really go into why SMG2 was so "bad."

But reading this, it sounds more like a Mario fan being disappointed by his favourite franchise getting an all too similar sequel, and as a Zelda fan, I can understand how that feels.

Anyway, for a game I would recommend to a complete newbie, I actually would recommend Flower wholeheartedly; it's a beautiful game to look at, the objectives are clear even without any text, it flows well and has wonderful pacing, and best of all, it's controlled with one button, which is a remarkable feat when you stop and think about it.

EDIT:


I would love some cake, wouldn't you?

EDIT: Image Spoilered [Wouldn't recommend opening at work] ~Moderator

For the first time gamer: LEGO-Anything.

I think it's better than LBP because of the touchstone of LEGO in society, and anyone can grasp the joy of rendered physics when a game item breaks into a bunch of little colored blocks. Plus, lots of platform/3D training and whimsy.

I introduced little big planet to two of my female flatmates. They loved it. They couldn't get enough of the style and the easy-to-learn mechanics. They played it for hours and hours and I don't think I have seen them play any other games!

But - I did also introduce my girlfriend to gaming and she took to it like a duck to water, despite being really inexperienced with it. She played (in this order):

Torchlight (she completed)
Diablo 2 (didn't play for long)
Portal (she completed)
Wow (still plays)
Resident evil 5 (couldn't deal with the controls and situational awareness)

so yeh.. I was surprised but she did pick up most of the games, albeit with my help, quickly.

I really think it depends on th type of person you're introducing. If they like quirky games, yes mario, sonic, LBP. If they like gunning stuff down may be Halo, nice easy FPS, I'm not a big FPS fan but liked Halo due to it's easy learning curve and smooth controls... bar those vehicles but I found even those contrasting clunky controls fun... at times :P. I f ya wanna smash faces in, go the street fighter route. Hell if you really love asian culture the Tenchu series is an easy enough game to get your head around.

So in short... if you dnt wanna read my suggestions. Fist game depends on gamer.

I don't think Yahtzee is right about this at all. The Escapists themselves published the article about how Super Mario Galaxy 2 started out as DLC for Super Mario Galaxy, but after realizing they had so much extra content they could sell a game out of it, they did so.

Which is a perfectly fine reason to do so. They do it with Mumorpergers all the time and don't get me started on Starcraft II-1, 2 and 3.

I wonder, if Nintendo had entitled it Super Mario Galaxy Lost Levels, and sold it as a DLC, would he have cared so much? He really has no reason to dislike the game other than it is the same as other games which he liked, so it appears he is splitting hairs for the purpose of splitting hairs. Wait, isn't that what Yahtzee is known for best?

Maybe he has every right to complain, maybe he doesn't; my main problem with this Zero Punctuation is that it wasn't funny... at all.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/100611-Super-Mario-Galaxy-2-Started-As-Galaxy-1-5

^ Link to Article referenced above

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here