The Big Picture: Maddening

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Actually Bob, considering the Dead Space 2 Ad campaign I think you may have just encouraged EA to put him on the box instead of discouraged them. On the bright side, at least if he does get on the box he'll suffer the Madden curse.

AvauntVanguard:
Sorry Bob, I have to disagree.
I don't like Vick, but yes. They're just dogs. Sorry.

I'm not simply the type of christian who thinks we're above animals or what have you; I simply don't think they deserve this much respect. Until they get thumbs and start building shit, I never will.

Look, I had a cat for the first 15 years of my life. He was there when I was born and he definitely possessed some intelligence and memory. I got that. But I didn't cry when both our cats had to be put down due to sickness and then depression (Yes, our cat suffered depression after the first one died). While I can understand some of the concepts that many animals are just barely a couple steps down from us... They're still just that. Below us.

Sorry.

So torturing them for fun and profit is ok? I'm not arguing your core point - they are, certainly, less advanced creatures than people - but that doesn't make his behavior any less reprehensible.

Spinwhiz:

Di'kut:

Susan Arendt:

He got his second chance - he's still playing professional football and getting paid obscene amounts of money for it. He's been given the opportunity to make a living off his athletic prowess. Anything other than that? He was a millionaire who got his jollies torturing and killing innocent animals. He can die in a damn fire.

Saying he could "die in a damn fire" sounds like something we regular plebians could get put on probation/suspension for. Damn shame you guys can abuse the system any way you feel like it.

It's not against the rules. She is not flaming anyone on this site, a group of people or a content creator. This goes the same for the person who would like to "shoot him (Vick) in the head".

That being said Spin, I have a match...

LTK_70:
This episode gave perspective on a surprisingly small picture. Might as well start calling the show "Bob's opinions"...

Thats all its ever been.

Good episode, I agree about Vick. He should have served much more time in jail, and the last place he deserves to be is the NFL, doing something he loves, making millions of dollars.

It really doesn't matter how much he forgives or how much time he serves though....there are some crimes that should have a lifelong implication if committed. Vick does not deserve the honor of being on the cover of Madden, and he never will ever again, period.

AvauntVanguard:
Sorry Bob, I have to disagree.
I don't like Vick, but yes. They're just dogs. Sorry.

I'm not simply the type of christian who thinks we're above animals or what have you; I simply don't think they deserve this much respect. Until they get thumbs and start building shit, I never will.

Look, I had a cat for the first 15 years of my life. He was there when I was born and he definitely possessed some intelligence and memory. I got that. But I didn't cry when both our cats had to be put down due to sickness and then depression (Yes, our cat suffered depression after the first one died). While I can understand some of the concepts that many animals are just barely a couple steps down from us... They're still just that. Below us.

Sorry.

He still did something he knew was wrong for the purpose of turning a profit and entertaining himself. Even if he was killing mice for profit and entertainment, it would be wrong. I can't convince anyone that an animal is greater than or equal to a human life, but I hope you can realize the creatures we share this earth with at least deserve to not be tortured and murdered.

canadamus_prime:
...On the bright side, at least if he does get on the box he'll suffer the Madden curse.

I think it hit him early with his conviction.

Still, the Madden curse...Would be fun to watch if he did make the cover, but I would rather he not be the chosen one anyway. He should have been removed from the running as soon as he was convicted.

dunnace:
Honestly, I think you guys should put Master Chief on the cover. Apparently he sells a lot of games.

He's already the mascot for Grifball.

OT- Sure, what Vick did was terrible, but innocent animals are tortured and killed every day, for food and clothing and such. Hell, I hear Spain still has bullfghting. The fact is, dogs are just lucky because they're protected by law. What would have happened if he'd gathered up a bunch of wild deer, and tortured/killed them? Would anyone care? I've heard people tell stories of watching a half-dead deer stumble around, and doing nothing to put it out of its misery. And they were laughing about it.

Does no one know Vick had ALOT less to do with the dog fights than he was accused of. Ok first off Vick is ghetto as shit so it goes with out saying most of his family is to. What had happened was he bought a house for his cousin to live in and his cousin was the one running the dog fights. At MOST Vick knew about it and didnt call the cops, in the end he only got arrested because he owned the house and also because of who he was. That being said lighten up everyone I strongly believe all crimes can be forgiven with time. Unless you break into peoples houses at night to eat their babies and paint the house red with baby blood =(

Bob nailed it this time!!! We should take anyone that has EVER committed a felony and just put them in prison FOREVER!!! No second chances. No redemption. No time served.

No fraking way. Who cares WHAT Vick does as a job. I don't care if he was a garbage collector. He served his time and now he is a free man. PERIOD!!! Don't like it? MOVE!

Our society as a whole is going downhill as far as i'm concerned. I'm not an american but it seems to me that any sensible persona looking really careful out the window will probably note the degeneration into a debased pseudo-society ruled by arbitrary laws, lack of logic and reason most of the times and a genuine malice towards all that is good, altruistic or in any other way worthy of being called human. While I respect Bob's statements deeply, i also know for a fact that people are to comfortably numb to what's going on around them to really do anything, so we'll keep withering away until those grim comic book futures become our own.

All right I'll bite, what is "Madden Curse" or what is that?

OT: And ultimately, people who are going to buy Madden and play the game on a casual and/or competitive basis won't care to look at the cover of Madden 2012... We get hit with so much media on a daily basis.... we flip through channels, have about 4-6 internet tabs up at once while on the cpu, and unless we're playing a specific game story play through about 2-4 games a day.

Sadly no one is going to even look at the cover of Madden long enough to go, "Hey I don't agree with this bastard on the cover of Madden."

But yes... what is Madden Curse?

JBJCurly:
Bob nailed it this time!!! We should take anyone that has EVER committed a felony and just put them in prison FOREVER!!! No second chances. No redemption. No time served.

Why stop there? capital punishment for everyone!

Decided to break my vow of not watching this tripe, just for the lulz since I genuinely had no idea who Michael Vick was or about the Madden franchise. And after watching 5 minutes of ranting and raving in the style of an overgrown manchild, what conclusions do I reach?

Do I think what Michael Vick did was wrong? Yes, even though, believe it or not, there are ringleaders for worse things out there than animal cruelty.

Do I think he truly 'served his time'? Nope, not really...but then again I don't give that much creedence to a fair number of written laws. And you know what? The Escapist being so full of pretentious energy of being 'upstanding law-abiding gamer citizens' think on this - by LAW, he had served his time. Ah but...in this case you won't uphold the law, will you? Because in this case by all means - let's form a lynch mob. Very mature indeed. *sigh*

Frankly...even though the subject matter is different, the more and more I read and watch videos on the Escapist, the more I'm reminded of the arguments and criticism it stirs up to be in the style of the following clip...starting decently enough at first before degenerating into what I've just watched here eventually and exposing truly lovely levels of pretentiousness and hypocrisy.

MovieBob:
Maddening

MovieBob wonders why people keep buying Madden, and why anyone would want Michael Vick on the cover.

Watch Video

i have to say i was upset with you for an ealier video but this one video makes me want to buy you a trophy and sing your greatness in the street. That basterd should hav been wiped cut and beaten till he was on the brink of death then set up in a cage match with a MMA fighter.

emeraldrafael:

dex-dex:
at least our football league does not employ criminals just because they can put their butt in the air and throw a ball between their legs.

Is that so? You're so funny

I do enjoy a good joke! I am glad you share my sense of humour.

Blah, you hate Madden, kk, get it but to lots of people think each Madden is worth the money. Think of it as an education tool, for the price of having fun you get to learn in depth about every team's players, which makes watching football a lot more fun.

Finally, almost no one is saying Vick should be cut slack because it was "just a dog", but rather dog fighting is common place in poor, black, southern areas. Hell, if our parents think its normal to live without the internet then some people can think its normal to fight dogs if they are around dog fighting as a child.

AgentBJ09:

canadamus_prime:
...On the bright side, at least if he does get on the box he'll suffer the Madden curse.

I think it hit him early with his conviction.

Still, the Madden curse...Would be fun to watch if he did make the cover, but I would rather he not be the chosen one anyway. He should have been removed from the running as soon as he was convicted.

Oh so would I, the curse is just consolation in case we fail to prevent him from being chosen.

I respect your opinion Bob, but I don't agree with it. If Vick is voted to be on the cover that's fine with me.

naab:
All right I'll bite, what is "Madden Curse" or what is that?

OT: And ultimately, people who are going to buy Madden and play the game on a casual and/or competitive basis won't care to look at the cover of Madden 2012... We get hit with so much media on a daily basis.... we flip through channels, have about 4-6 internet tabs up at once while on the cpu, and unless we're playing a specific game story play through about 2-4 games a day.

Sadly no one is going to even look at the cover of Madden long enough to go, "Hey I don't agree with this bastard on the cover of Madden."

But yes... what is Madden Curse?

Someone should make a thread detailing waht it is, cause this response has been common.

Basically, whatever player is on the front cover of the Madden game has a bad year that year. usually though injury, though not always. Vick was on the 2004 Cover.

I'll say that again and hope people see it.

MICHAEL VICK WAS ON THE 2004 COVER OF MADDEN 2004

image

The year after, he broke his leg preseason, and missed between 10-12 games, and now, well, this stuff. But players arent awlways injured or have bad seasons. Larry Fitzgerald had a relatively great season after his appearance (yeah, he missed the pro bowl, but thats a joke of a game) and Drew Brees lost in the first round of the playoffs. No injury, just lost.

I have a video that accurately sums up my opinion of Michael Vick created by the good people at DarkMatch. specifically why we should be able to give someone like michael vick a bit more forgiveness than chris brown. the vick stuff is about 10 min into the video so you can skip there if you like, but the whole thing's worth watching IMHO. Please tell me what you think of the arguments made. WARNING VIDEO CONTAINS FOUL LANGUAGE!!!

http://darkmatch.blip.tv/file/4960060/

I don't really get how people seem to think that michael vick should continue to suffer despite seeming genuinely repentant? Why isn't prison time enough? I think bob is being WAY to sensitive here.

If it had any guy off of the streets busted with dog fighting you can guarantee that person would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Sad fact is: fame has it's privileges and justice often fails.

So go ahead EA, this'll be par for the course for stupid moves you've made in advertising.

Dastardly:

MovieBob:
Maddening

MovieBob wonders why people keep buying Madden, and why anyone would want Michael Vick on the cover.

Watch Video

I'm with you on this, but I do want to throw in an alternate reasoning:

It's okay to ask us to forgive Vick. It's okay to ask that we believe in redemption, and to open ourselves up to the possibility that we are also capable of all evil things if the world were to just catch us on a bad day. It's okay to point out the fact that he's "done his time" and is trying to get his act together. All of that is okay, and I agree.

However.

Forgiving someone, or believing they have redeemed themselves, does not mean forestalling the logical consequences of those actions. It is not wrong, unforgiving, or uncharitable to vehemently want to deny Vick this spot. He paid his legal debt to society, and that's fine. It means he cannot be punished again, but refusing to honor something is not the same as punishment.

If someone robs me and gunpoint, goes to jail, gets out, and then comes to see me for forgiveness, I might choose to use that opportunity to forgive them. I'd let them know that I didn't like what they did, and I'd stop wishing horrible things to happen to them. I'd let them know I really do hope they go on to make better choices. But forgiving them doesn't mean I have to like them, be "buddies," or ever even speak to them ever again. I certainly don't have to make them best man at my wedding, or keep a picture of them on my desk.

Well said (MoiveBob and yourself). Although I agree with him in this case, in general whether I do or don't his arguments are well thought out and try to be as logical as possible where it warrants it. Were you by chance ever part of a debate club?

MovieBob:
Maddening

MovieBob wonders why people keep buying Madden, and why anyone would want Michael Vick on the cover.

Watch Video

..Wow, I actually didn't know that. He doesn't deserve to be in Football guys. Sure, he may of served his time but it doesn't teach a moral lesson or anything. He probably didn't even get a long time in prison for his crimes. I actually fully understand Bob's reasons for this. Dogs are a man's best friend, and are lovable animals. How does anyone have the right to use them as profitable objects to fight each other to the death?

I mean, you all may look up to Vick for certain reasons because he's a big shot but really- he is just playing a sport guys. Just because he's good at it, doesn't mean he deserves special treatment. Any one of us can play football and be good at it, and yet not get any mercy for our actions. Reason he's getting it easy is because he's famous, an idol who NFL show off like he's some incredible hero. I hate the ideal and no one should get away with that.

This also makes me respect Bob more, because Bob isn't afriad to expose people for who they are or be honest. He tackles big issues even if we can all turn against him (though we shouldn't, because I agree fully with him that a person who would gamble on animal's lives are sick and cruel to a high degree). I mean, could you imagine if your dog ran away, and turned out that Vick used him/her as something to gamble on but it died during an illegal dog fight?
I bet you that you'll sue him.. plus the dogs are trained to be hateful and vicious for selfish purposes. I can never accept a person like that, and also Vick hasn't shown he is sorry. All he does is keep playing football and living his life.. never speaking about how incredibly guilty he feels or anything. So yeah..

dex-dex:

emeraldrafael:

dex-dex:
at least our football league does not employ criminals just because they can put their butt in the air and throw a ball between their legs.

Is that so? You're so funny

I do enjoy a good joke! I am glad you share my sense of humour.

I do actually, if your being sarcastic. Really, this is going to fuel alot of jokes between the Canadian kid at my college and myself when he talks about the CFL and I talk about hte NFL.

Susan Arendt:

AvauntVanguard:
Sorry Bob, I have to disagree.
I don't like Vick, but yes. They're just dogs. Sorry.

I'm not simply the type of christian who thinks we're above animals or what have you; I simply don't think they deserve this much respect. Until they get thumbs and start building shit, I never will.

Look, I had a cat for the first 15 years of my life. He was there when I was born and he definitely possessed some intelligence and memory. I got that. But I didn't cry when both our cats had to be put down due to sickness and then depression (Yes, our cat suffered depression after the first one died). While I can understand some of the concepts that many animals are just barely a couple steps down from us... They're still just that. Below us.

Sorry.

So torturing them for fun and profit is ok? I'm not arguing your core point - they are, certainly, less advanced creatures than people - that doesn't make his behavior any less reprehensible.

I have to disagree with you on the idea that animals are less advanced. It's not inherently a false statement but it needs to be qualified. Less advanced technologically? Certainly. Less advanced intellectually? Alright? But there are other ways to quantify advancement... there are animals with richer genetic heritage then humans. Puffer fish for example posses 0 junk DNA. Living beings evolve certain ways to fit into a biological niche. We have our place, other animals have there's, I could know more survive in the Indian jungle then a tiger could survive in New York.

Still despite this I cant agree whole heartedly with Bob... or at least I cant agree with his righteousness on this issue. I dont like Vicks, I disprove of dog fighting, and I think putting him on the cover of Madden would be a PR mistake on EAs part. But I refuse to get sanctimonious about it, because you know actively supports the torture and slaughter of animals? Yeah, I do. I do it every time I go to the grocery store and buy a pound of ground beef. I do it every time I choose to buy meat that hasnt been certified as humanly raised and slaughtered. You want to see torture of animals? Go visit a stockyards some time. Unless your a vegetarian or only buy certified humanly slaughtered meat, and you really decry Vicks on this issue, your a hypocrite.

I wish it wasnt so. I really wish I had the moral fortitude to only buy humanely killed meat. I would love to sit on a high horse and cast judgment down on people like Vicks. But I cant. I'm not that much better then he is, and I think if most people on this board where honest with themselves, they would probably realize the same thing.

Just to quote myself on the topic:

Woodsey:
The guy served his punishment - punishing him further by leaving him out of these sort of things undermines the judicial system.

Susan Arendt:

boeingguy787:
Seriously, guys? NOBODY believes in second chances? I thought that the justice system was designed to rehabilitate people, and Vick seems to be rehabilitated (unlike countless others who have not changed their ways).

He got his second chance - he's still playing professional football and getting paid obscene amounts of money for it. He's been given the opportunity to make a living off his athletic prowess. Anything other than that? He was a millionaire who got his jollies torturing and killing innocent animals. He can die in a damn fire.

"He's been given the opportunity to make a living off his athletic prowess."

Which is why he's been selected to go on the cover.

Prison is the punishment. The ENTIRE purpose of it is to set an amount of time that - if we're going to be crude about it - evens out the balance sheets. Designating the punishment is the job of a judge, not any of us.

Now, I don't want to see him get the pay cheque from it, but he has obviously been chosen because he's deemed to have played as well as (or better than) the other 15 guys who have also been chosen.

We torture (or sanction the torture) and murder (of) animals for food all the time. I don't really see the distinction. If he did it just for the sick pleasure of murdering the animals I would see the distinction, but their torture and murder was more of a side-effect than the goal itself.

While I do not think he should be on the cover. Most of you people in this thread need to read this article.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3148549

He has already paid for his actions. So there should be no reason for him to not be in this contest, if he had a good year.

Dastardly:
Forgiving someone, or believing they have redeemed themselves, does not mean forestalling the logical consequences of those actions. It is not wrong, unforgiving, or uncharitable to vehemently want to deny Vick this spot. He paid his legal debt to society, and that's fine. It means he cannot be punished again, but refusing to honor something is not the same as punishment.

While I agree with your reasoning on the whole I must nitpick about your last statement. Punishment is adding something negative or removing something positive. So refusing to honor something is punishment, not punishment by law in this case but still punishment.

Wow, cry me a river.

There's something of a sliding scale here. He spent 2 years in jail and went bankrupt, There's a spot between "Ok to kill and torture animals" and "die in a fire". What he did was not okay, he killed dogs for fun and profit. But to say that is irredeemable, is, in my eyes a hypocritical and hideous thing to claim.

What we have here is (vile) mobs screaming for blood because their "Oh so refined sensibilities were offended." Moviebob handwaved that he has a hunting & fishing license but, no wait, go back to that. It completely fucking invalidates his point! What's the huge difference here between deer and dogs? Between Fish and Dogs? How about between the dogs and the animals that became the meat you said you eat? Or whose skin became the leather on your belt? You go "yeah yeah" with that ridiculous voice of utter contempt you have, but in the end you're nothing but a big, whiny, intellectually dishonest hypocrite. And that goes for all the other hypocrites supporting you in this thread, wishing death and pain on another human being because he fucking killed some dogs.

Woodsey:
Prison is the punishment. The ENTIRE purpose of it is to set an amount of time that - if we're going to be crude about it - evens out the balance sheets. Designating the punishment is the job of a judge, not any of us.

That would be true, but this forum is full of Gen Y. And if there's anything that Gen Y wants to be it's to be judge, jury and most especially executioner.

I seem to be in the minority here, but I basically HAVE forgiven him. If he hasn't done it anymore since he got out of jail and has spoken out against his own actions, denying him forgiveness is pointless. I've said it before, we should try and let him move on. If he goes back to the old ways, fine, you win. But until that time he is just a guy trying to do better.

I'll never understand why people care about Micheal Vick being on the Madden cover. He's a football player. Apparently a good one. Whatever he does outside football does not and should not matter.

I personally don't care either way about what he did. I wouldn't do it, but I'm not really all to wound up about it. What I am wound up about is the idea that an athlete, a sports figure should be held up as anything more than just that. Football players are not 'role models' or 'heroes', they're people with lucrative if difficult to get jobs. That's it. As long as he keeps doing his job well, he should keep getting rewarded for doing that job well. It's not his job to be a stellar human being. It is his job to throw touchdown passes and win games. And again, nobody is contending that he isn't good at doing his job.

To put it into perspective, imagine if your workplace had an "employee of the week" contest. Would you find it fair if a stellar employee who consistently improved the bottom line was barred from that contest because he got into a fight at a bar the weekend before?

Anyway, on to the first half of the rant. Personally, I don't mind the $60 yearly game. I really don't. See, the problem with moving to DLC or a bi-annual system or what have you is that not everyone who buys Madden plays it like a hardcore junkie. When I used to play Madden, I didn't buy it every year. I bought every 3 years, just long enough for the graphics to change, or major gameplay improvements to happen. If they moved to some kind of DLC thing, I'd have to buy a 10 year old game and then download 10 years worth of DLC just to get the latest version. And that's not cool. It's great for the guy who already HAS Madden, not so great for someone thinking of picking up a new game.

And yes, people exist who do not already own every copy of Madden. Kids get born every year, grow up, turn 11 or 12 and decide they'd like to buy a football game. Do we really want to shut them out of the experience? Maybe someone who didn't previously play them decides today is the day to try it out. Do we want to make him jump through additional hoops?

Nobody forces people to keep buying the same game every year. Most people I know don't do that crap precisely because it's unnecessarily expensive. It's just not in EA's best interest to lose sales of more casual players to cater to a hardcore fan demographic who will buy the game anyway, regardless of what happens.

Sutter Cane:
I have a video that accurately sums up my opinion of Michael Vick created by the good people at DarkMatch. specifically why we should be able to give someone like michael vick a bit more forgiveness than chris brown. the vick stuff is about 10 min into the video so you can skip there if you like, but the whole thing's worth watching IMHO. Please tell me what you think of the arguments made. WARNING VIDEO CONTAINS FOUL LANGUAGE!!!

http://darkmatch.blip.tv/file/4960060/

I don't really get how people seem to think that michael vick should continue to suffer despite seeming genuinely repentant? Why isn't prison time enough? I think bob is being WAY to sensitive here.

Thanks, that was a cool little video about how he has changed his life around. But, I'm still miffed about how people love talking about culture and how important it is and when someone grows up in a culture that has dog fighting, gets desensitized to it, gets punished, and repents how the culture aspect gets mysteriously overlooked. Plus, when it comes down to it, I'd rather cheer for a guy like Vick how has paid for being a bad person and repented than a person like Santonio Homes who has 10 kids and doesn't see what is wrong with it.

Loonerinoes:

Woodsey:
Prison is the punishment. The ENTIRE purpose of it is to set an amount of time that - if we're going to be crude about it - evens out the balance sheets. Designating the punishment is the job of a judge, not any of us.

That would be true, but this forum is full of Gen Y. And if there's anything that Gen Y wants to be it's to be judge, jury and most especially executioner.

What's Gen Y?

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