Jimquisition: Hardcore Hypocrisy

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emeraldrafael:

EDIT:

Its gonna be funny when Jim has to make a video here defending himself for his mario kart/cod "controversy"

I think this video is relevant to that edit.

This thread is already becoming a brewing flame war. If it weren't for how long I've been playing World of Warcraft, I'd really be surprised by how hateful gamers can be of other gamers.

The thing to understand here is that those "retro games" are decades old, gaming advanced since then. Those games were simple because the technology of the time couldn't really do much better.

It's also important to note the absolutly punishing difficulty of a lot of those simple games, that is not present in the Iphone games, and that is something important that is missing from this equasion. Games on the Iphone are designed so just about anyone can sit down and beat them with minimal effort and a bit of repetition, compared to many of those retro games where that was hardly the case.

The thing to understand also is that the divide exists not so much because of sneering arrogance on the part of actual hardcore gamers, but because the industry has grown so greedy and corperate that it is not producing much in the way of hardcore games. Nobody would give a crap if all the developers were not so focused on making accessible, casual, games for the lowest human denominator. If we were seeing an equal number of deep, hardcore titles coming out this divide wouldn't exist. The gaming industry figures it can produce those casual games more easily and cheaply, and hit a much larger audience, and this make more money. Hardcore games ARE profitable, but not as profitable as casual shovelware, so shovelware is primarily what we see.

To argue that the iphone or your typical tablet is as valid a gaming platform as a console that was out decades ago, is to defend a gaming not only ceasing to move forward, but literally regressing back to it's infancy in a practical sense.

When it comes to people crying over missing the old school, it should be noted what those people are saying they want are things like "Demon's Souls" or "Dark Souls" modern technology, decent depth, and a reasonably steep learning curve combined with punishing difficulty that makes progress inherantly rewarding. You however see ridiculously few games of that sort, just as you increasingly see very few deep and complicated RPGs.. which traditionally don't have the punishing difficulty, are are (for good reason) complex enough to not be approachable to the casual market. Today all RPGs need to generally be simplified or spliced into some kind of action game that undercutes the entire point of having an RPG to begin with.

Truthfully with so many gaming-media personalities coming out in defense of casual games and gamers, I confess to some growing concern. What should be the guardians of the industrial seem to be falling into line with the mass-market demands, the same way professional reviewers did before them.

Or in short, there is nothing inherantly wrong with casual games, as long as there are enough serious games produced to meet the demand, and really there aren't since the casual market has ultimatly been replacing them. Defending a game as being good as something from the 80s or early 90s is really kind of sad given that we're almost into 2012.

So.. this "hardcore gamer" group.. Do they have a downwritten ideology? Because Jim seems to simply have an idea of who is in this group. This is stereotyping and you know who stereotyped alot? Hitler did. yeah, dident know that did ya?
TL:DR
Jim Sterling is a nazi(wich could be good people in a pressured situation)

Ah, good ol' Punch Out!

Now there's a hardcore game if I've ever seen one

Daystar Clarion:

EverythingIncredible:

Daystar Clarion:

I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.

Console games have been around just as long and haven't seen that level of depth.

lol

You honestly believe that? You really think that no console game has ever equaled the complexity of a PC game?

That's just...

The...

Forget it.

A console game that matches the complexity of Europa Universalis.

That's a laugh. The only place where a game of that complexity can exist is on the PC.

Treblaine:
Hardcore Hipster here: I've been championing hardcore iOS games before Jim Sterling made a video about it

Same here. I love my iPod Touch, it's actually the one gaming console I use the most now. It's small, easy to carry, loaded with fun games and more often than not I'm finding FREE games on the top charts.

I'm glad that Jim did an episode about it, because I really do wish people would stop treating iOS games as somehow inferior.

kiri2tsubasa:
I have always used this definition of gamer. Do you play games, 'yes', do you like playing games, 'yes', do you know how to get the games that interest you (retail, DD, etc), 'yes', congratulations, you are a gamer.

This is a great way of putting it. Like Jim's example, my mother actually played NES games with me. Stuff like Othello, Monopoly, Anticipation, Pinball... certainly not as "difficulty" as something like Mario or Final Fantasy, but we had a lot of fun. She especially enjoyed bowling games, which is why she monopolized my Wii for a summer playing Wii Sports' bowling game with my aunt and their friends.

...damn, lost my train of thought cause I got caught up watching MegaUltraJMan while posting this and became hopelessly entranced by Super Tempo.

I'll just sum this up by saying that Jim's got a lot of good points, and I think more than a few "hardcore" gamers can go stick their heads in a bucket of water. Also, having grown up on ridiculously hard-ass games on the Atari and NES, I have absolutely no gods-damned problem with games being a bit easier these days. I certainly don't have months to devote to mastering a game and just wanna relax and have fun.. but of course, "hardcore" gamers will tell you that's not what gaming is about.

I wonder if Jim did a video on "difficulty", cause I see far too many people bitching about games being easy, while I see just as many complaining that they're too hard. Unfortunately, all the people going on that games are too easy makes the developers thing we want harder games. Many games, when localized to the US, somehow end up being deliberately made harder or simply have difficulty settings removed for some obligatory reason.

By the way, I don't think "casual" gamers should be let off, either. Though they aren't as big of a problem as the "hardcore" crown, they can be seen as a reason why so many games don't try hard enough to come up with new ideas. Unfortunately, the same can also be said of the other side of the coin, and now I'm just rambling and forgetting what point I was trying to make.

So I'll stop talking here. Hopefully someone can make sense of this. :p

RoseArch:
If we are all wrong, and you are right. THen what happens when we agree with you?

Paradox! Universe explodes.

Truly though, you can't apply logic to hyperbolic rhetoric and expect clean results.

I don't own any iOS devices, but I might get one just to play Infinity Blade II... Among other things...

My problem with Infinity Blade and many other iOS games is simple. They're exclusive to iOS and ignoring the Android market entirely. As someone who doesn't want to shell out $500+ for a piece of hardware that I can get the same specs with upgradeable memory instead of being force to handle such a pultry ammount of space for about $300, it really sucks to see so many flocking to the Apple platform just because it has more customers right now.

But with the growing awareness of Android, and it becoming much more widespread over a variety of tablets and phones, I think it'll gain strength before too long. I just hope that the companies making great games like Infinity Blade realize that before it's too late and at least give us something. I think the problem will end up being kinda end up being similar, yet entirely more pointless, then console vs. PC.

Here's my problem with something like Infinity Blade in particular and games designed for phones in general: they make the battery run out faster, sometimes much faster.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I kind of need to have my phone available and my job doesn't always give me the opportunity to charge it in the middle of a shift. Most of the time if I'm able to charge my phone and play a game at the same time it's because I'm in my house, and if I'm in my house then why wouldn't I just play something on one of the three dedicated consoles or gaming PC that are also in residence?

So I don't really have any problem with IOS or Android games as games, I tend to agree that some of them are actually pretty clever in how they set up control schemes. I just don't know that I really see this as the next big step in gaming, as some people seem to think it will be. I do think the expansion of the phone game market will end up sounding the death knell for dedicated portable consoles though.

Otaku World Order:
So... Call of Duty is casual and Mario Kart is hardcore? Did I wake up in the Bizarro universe or something?

By the definition for Casual and Hardcore that Jim gave in the episode they are both casual games because they are simple to play. While a game like Dark Souls is a hardcore game because of how difficult it is.

I would like to ask Jim if he considers Contra casual or Hardcore game.
Or if anyone wants to give an opinion on this and arguments to support, I'd appreciate.

Krion_Vark:

Otaku World Order:
So... Call of Duty is casual and Mario Kart is hardcore? Did I wake up in the Bizarro universe or something?

By the definition for Casual and Hardcore that Jim gave in the episode they are both casual games because they are simple to play. While a game like Dark Souls is a hardcore game because of how difficult it is.

You shouldn't say simple - difficult, you should say simple-complex.

the way I've seen it...I judge somones "hardcore" verses "casual" NOT in the games they play..but how much they KNOW

if somone freaquents sites like the escapist, can name and understand different games and genres and just generally "know" whats what in the industry right now then I would call them hardcore..

but thats just me

Sixcess:
I don't hate casual games.

I hate the industry for dumbing so many games down so that those smug, middle class cunts in those video excerpts might consider playing them.

The industry is in love with the idea that their games will gain wider recognition and acceptability - which translates either into being played at parties by 'non-gamers' or, on the flipside, being played by the multiplayer jock crowd - how else explain Bioware's desperate whoring to multiplayer other than their acceptance of the stereotype that single player is for nerds, brah... Each is as bad as the other.

.....I dont think single player is going anywhere though...depth and complexity sure

I always laugh at the hardcore vs casual whiners because like most sane people who play games I like diversity. Not every game needs to have a million systems and a billion hours of content to be amazing. It really depends on the individual game. Take Arkham City for example, I felt they added too much to the combat and I constantly found myself doing the wrong thing at the wrong time because I've forgotten the exact specific way to deal with the specific enemy using the specific gadget/combo required. Likewise the city area, though much larger than the asylum feels less interesting, less refinied and less meaningful.

And on the flipside their is Crysis 2 which I felt was way too simplified and streamlined compared to the original game which had a certain scope and depth to its design and systems I had far more fun with.

How does he know they're hypocrites? Not all hardcore gamers like or even respect the Mario franchise. Maybe they didn't grow up playing those simple 8-bit games. Just because it helped the industry doesn't mean every gamer likes Mario, maybe some hardcore gamers grew up with RPGs and 4x strategy games or something, so then they wouldn't be hypocrites exactly. But then again the likelihood of this being even partially the case is fairly small.

Salvadore Dali once said: the first person who paints clocks melting from a tree is a genius, the second person is probably an idiot.

Pong pushed the medium forward, then Lunar Lander, then Space Invaders and Asteroids pushed the medium forward beyond that, then Donkey Kong and Pac-Man, and then Street Fighter started doing it's thing. Each of these were advances of video gaming.

So if somebody took Pac-Man but rendered Pac-Man in 3D as a colorful seal eating glistening fish on the beach while sea monsters with kelp hair chased him amid a maze of waterfalls and sand castles with surprisingly good texture and particle effects, and put that on an iOS device with mediocre touch-screen controls, should we be impressed with how great that is?

If Infinity Blade is graphics demo for the iOS with shallow gameplay added as an afterthought because it has to be there, I'd say the so-called hardcore gamers are showing good discretion.

If only Infinity Blade was given the opportunity for a proper console release. I'd love to see what the minds behind that game could do to it with more versatile hardware.

I don't have any particular issue with iOS stuff, just the hipsters that use Apple products. I imagine a lot of the vitriol comes from the fear that eventually all gaming may turn into iPhone level gaming because of the better cost:profit ratio. The "real" gaming area has it's fair share of shovelware (CoD and the EA sports stuff being the most notable) but there's a lot more garbage on the iOS which is still pulling decent profits at far lower cost.

The only time I've put on my "hardcore" hat is talking about WoW when they started retooling the game for a minimum effort = maximum reward system to cater to the "casuals". The result of that is what you see in WoW now; a game that is completely broken, because it's trying to please everyone, with effectively nothing to do most of the day. You raid maybe twice a week, and the rest of the time you either don't play or run dailies. Ironically enough, few people actually "play" casually, they still put in tonnes of time each week, but instead of working on raid content, they just sorta twiddle about.

Of course, WoW still has its "Hardcores" but really they're putting in far more time than most people and not getting much for it when the day is said and done. But, they still get to swing their epeens, and that's all that matters to them.

Vault101:

Sixcess:
I don't hate casual games.

I hate the industry for dumbing so many games down so that those smug, middle class cunts in those video excerpts might consider playing them.

The industry is in love with the idea that their games will gain wider recognition and acceptability - which translates either into being played at parties by 'non-gamers' or, on the flipside, being played by the multiplayer jock crowd - how else explain Bioware's desperate whoring to multiplayer other than their acceptance of the stereotype that single player is for nerds, brah... Each is as bad as the other.

.....I dont think single player is going anywhere though...depth and complexity sure

It may not be going anywhere, but we see it becoming an afterthought rather than the focus and it'll likely get worse as time progresses.

I have to agree with Six though. We've seen many-a-game where the sequel had a lot of "complicated features" stripped out or over-simplified to appeal to people who are, quite frankly, dumb and lazy. There's become this big thing in current gaming where people seem to just want the game to drag them, kicking and screaming if necessary, to the end credits. They've started making games to accommodate that "let's just get this over with" mentality.

They don't allow people to explore or experiment. Some games, like one of the recent shooters of this season, actually would fail your mission if you decided to explore. But I think FF13 is probably the most grievous example of this; there was nothing but a 1 way tunnel to the end game with 2 exceptions, a little 'fix this robot" quest in a ruined city, and the "Kill this named" missions in Pulse; half of which couldn't even be completed until after you've beaten the game because it limits how much you can level.

While I did grow up with sonic and other such simpler games, I do not any more enjoy playing them much at all and haven't done so in the last 15~ years. I tried to get into mario galaxy and it was just dull. I indeed wouldn't play any such game over the ones I am currently playing (blazblue, disgaea, persona, you know the deep stuff)

The funny thing is that I wouldn't call infinity blade a casual game, though other games do deserve that title I feel that for what it is it's about as non-casual as it gets. In a world where Wrpgs are all button-mashy action games with looting ant stat elements like Diablo it's a breath of fresh air.

Oh and call of duty is indeed a casual game. If you have millions of people all on one game you can't expect everyone to be pro.

JIM! Enunciate your T's. I know youve been in America for a long time, but a more English pronunciation is perfect for your style of pseudo arrogance and smugness!

World of Goo and Sword & Sworcery are 2 of my favourite games of all time. That is all.

The whole casual vs hardcore argument is pointless and stupid

Crono1973:

I've seen kids that can play the shit out of an FPS but can't beat World 8-3 because of the Hammer Bros. In other words, modern day hardcore games aren't as hardcore as older Mario games.

And I've seen my mom beat the game.

This is kind of the problem with personal anecdotes, which is why I noted it didn't really prove anything.

4173:

Super Mario is casual and accessible by the standards of Ninja Gaiden and Contra, not Super Mario Galaxy or Portal.

And my parents could play the games rather proficiently, despite only one of them being technically adept.

There were a lot of people picking up and handling these games casually back when. Give people a little credit instead of assuming they're too stupid to make it through a game experience without their hands being held.

EverythingIncredible:

Daystar Clarion:

EverythingIncredible:

Console games have been around just as long and haven't seen that level of depth.

lol

You honestly believe that? You really think that no console game has ever equaled the complexity of a PC game?

That's just...

The...

Forget it.

A console game that matches the complexity of Europa Universalis.

That's a laugh. The only place where a game of that complexity can exist is on the PC.

Even if that's the case, complexity =/= good game.

I know that's hard to swallow coming from a dirty peasant console gamer.

Daystar Clarion:

EverythingIncredible:

Daystar Clarion:

You honestly believe that? You really think that no console game has ever equaled the complexity of a PC game?

That's just...

The...

Forget it.

A console game that matches the complexity of Europa Universalis.

That's a laugh. The only place where a game of that complexity can exist is on the PC.

Even if that's the case, complexity =/= good game.

I know that's hard to swallow coming from a dirty peasant console gamer.

It's not true, though. I've played the shit out of Europa Universalis, but I'm put off by how overly complex and obscure everything is in Disgaea. Mechanic for mechanic they're both on par in the amount of crap they throw at you, and Disgaea is probably a larger game just out of the bunch of procedurally generated stuff it has in it.

Depth and platform are completely unrelated.

Also, I'm agreeing with Jim Sterling. The world must be about to implode.

I don't like Infinity Blade or Punch Out! because they don't allow free movement. It's a nitpick, and not much to go on in terms of quality, so I say: "I don't like it because of this.", not "It's bad because of this.".

Good timing with my state of my mind.
This week I became fed up with all these stupid battles.
- Hardcore vs casual... retarded.
- Forza vs Gran Turismo... retarded.
- PS3 vs Xbox... retarded.
- Call of Duty vs Battlefield... retarded.
I still don't get why it is important for people to win these points. There are no valid arguments. Yes one could say that technically one is better than the other.
But enjoying something is subjective. UN-Quantifiable.
So there is no ways to win these battles. NO WAYS!
And if it did, you it really affect my appreciation of something?
Let's say that an intelligence from above with unquestionable truth would say that PS3 is greater than Xbox... would that make me appreciate my PS3 more? NAH, I doubt it.
This is all retarded.
We want our industry to be taken seriously... it's not going to happen with that attitude.

While Complexity does not ensure a good game, it gives much more potential for a compelling experience than simplistic experiences. Both deserve to exist and fill specific roles, but I just want to lay down one very targeted criticism here. "Older games were simple, and they were our forerunners, great games and the foundation of the industry" is not a good argument for simplistic games. The Model T was a revolutionary car and a forerunner for future automobiles, but you don't make it anymore because that would just be silly. Video games don't quite have the hardline differences as my previous comparison, but there is a point there. Older games weren't simple because they thought it was a better experience, they were simple because that was the limit of what they could do. They were still plenty fun, and current simple games can also be such, but so far as my opinion goes, complexity can always offer you a more satisfying experience if you do it right.

This video is silly, Sterling was just recycling some of his old content. It's probably in response to the alleged claims that his credibility as an unbiased journalist has been discredited by his recent musings: first backing CoD as a legitimately non-casual game; then stating that Kirby and Dynasty Warriors are his favorite games; and now giving Skyrim a 10? Seems to me that only the easy games curry his favour. My guess is that like all other people who think Skyrim is good for some reason, he was offended that someone online or irl called him a "featherweight" or whatnot for not knowing what RPG or game mechanics are or something like that.

Oh how I miss the days when the Jimquisition wasn't popular, where he explored unknown facts facts and countered misguided tropes in the game industry as opposed to just speaking his mind. His show is still entertaining to watch though, albeit with a pinch of salt.

OT: Hardcore gamers and causal gamers are here to stay; they exist and will never go away. I do hope that one of his later shows explains the effect that purist hardcore gamers have on the market despite being a minority and the irrelevance of casual gamers do have in the long term. You don't become a gamer because oh wow my iphone/facebook has games! Like hedonism or philanthropy, gaming (or rather escapism, if you pardon the unintended plug) isn't a hobby or occupation (in most cases), it is a lifestyle choice. And there will always be people who tap into this medium to experience said behaviors. How many of you started gaming seriously around the same time you entered adolescence?

Hardcore was okay when it was a way to celebrate someone pulling off something insanely hard in a game or the dedication to pull off something that only a few people could accomplish.

But somewhere along the way it moved from congratulations for beating that game or congratulations on picking up that gear to being elitist. Instead of just enjoying your accomplishments it became look down your nose at players who aren't in the top raiding guild, who didn't complete a game on hard mode, or gamers who play on anything other than the X-Box 360 or PS3.

Tough hard games have their place in gaming and it would a sad state of gaming if there weren't touch accomplishments to strive for, but there is also a time and place of just a bit of fun and no worries about who is better that who.

Daystar Clarion:

Even if that's the case, complexity =/= good game.

I know that's hard to swallow coming from a dirty peasant console gamer.

And I believe that you legitimately think that. Console gamers will naturally reject more complex games because they can't handle it.

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