No Right Answer: Best Animation Style Ever

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shameduser:

Kitsuna10060:
snip

Looks like someone doesn't enjoy science fiction.

Also how can you stand Vampire Hunter D?

well i'm not a big fan of Sci-fi but there is some i enjoy.

rather easily? its not a bad movie (the first one) least it made sense the whole way through, unlike Akira -.- I'd have suggested Outlaw Star if i didn't think it was thing kinda 'normal anime tropes' he dislikes, not that he gave us any thing to go by anyway ...

Negatempest:
Really Internets? You recommended Trigun and Cowboy Bebob to Dan? *Face Palm* There is nothing wrong with those anime in terms of story, characters and "progression". BUT Cowboy Bebob and Trigun are both hard to follow unless you already loved anime.

Dan is looking for interesting anime that does not follow closely to the anime cliche.

I recommend 2 first.

Golden Boy and Great Teacher Onizuka (aka GTO) in English Sub.

These are pretty early anime that were dubbed poorly when they reached US soil like speed racer. Golden Boy is a per episode story like the Simpsons, but great stories. GTO is a great progression anime that gives you the idea of what to expect at 2 episodes.

"If" Dan got any interest in anime after those 2, THAN I would recommend Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. English is good, but English Subs are better. This is an anime with the Robot Trope, but those robots take back seat to the characters.

p.s. Can anyone else name anime that don't fall under the cliche of being long, conviluted, or difficult to get into unless you already love anime?

For the sake of argument, I think Cowboy Bebop is perfect for someone who has absolutely no grasp of eastern animation. It's symbolism and aesthetic style are deeply rooted in western sensibilities, so no culture shock to distract you from the narrative. The music is just your old blues and jazz. The story structure is your basic film noir.

I just think the whole production is a love letter to western cinema.

Conversely, I don't even think, I know that a series about a borderline pedophile/rapist teacher who used to be a terrorising gangster isn't going to connect with a western viewer. I know this from experience. I'll be the first to advocate that GTO is one of the modern masterpeices of social commentary but I've already seen so many people turned away from anime because they watched GTO and thought Japan's tastes were way fucked up and sexist. I know that isn't the underlying message of GTO, but it is satire and satire just won't work unless the audience has a deep understanding of the core themes it is ridiculing.

David VanDusen:

JoaoJatoba:
Why people suggest old animes? Beebop? Trigun? All from the last millennium. Try Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (way better than the first release), Another (horror story), GANTZ, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. There is sooooo much more...

Anime are more like movies than cartoon, because you have tons of "american pie" comedies, but also deeper ones like Inception. The thing is you must know which is which, and that's the hard part. The themes in eastern animations are more restricted it seems (comedy, basically).

The industry of anime in japan is not at all like cartoon industry in the US. There, they are more like Hollywood..

And newbies, stay away from the series with 500 episodes. The pace is so slow. Try smaller anime, with 13 or 26 episodes.

While I could say there is a "good" reason why they do it, it would all be opinion and conjecture.

In reality, the more likely is that Cowboy Bebop stands as one of the more heavily rated anime world wide. It is also really easy to compare it to something more familiar in the west. "Hey, did you like Firefly? Then you'll probably really enjoy this." This line of suggestion has actually worked every time for me when suggesting Bebop to someone as an intro.

You have to step back and look at what you're trying to suggest and see if it really stacks up as being "good" (by the sense of overall appeal) or "good" by the sense of it hits things that only satisfy you. Frankly, I think that Gantz is a very awful title. I think Gantz gets hurt more when you actually learn anything about the creation of the show and how directions were made. I think the rape in first two Eps is a turn off for many people. Further more, I've known people who were on the fence with Anime and felt that Giant Armor with 10 year old boy voice was "dumb." (Direct quote)

Now I'm not saying that you or anyone else is wrong or bad for liking Gantz or not easily seeing the conflict with FMA, but I am trying to point out that there is a reason on the top 100's, many of the animes you see get voted above them are there for these reasons; they have a much more broad appeal.

As a parting notion, I'll give one last example. I love Bebop, Trigun, and Outlaw Star. My best friend loves Bebop, Trigun, and HATES Outlaw star.... why? Because Outlaw start has Aliens and it just rubbed him the wrong way in the context of things. It really is the little things man.

I am not stating that Cowboy Beebob and Trigun are bad. I love Trigun. I'm just trying to suggest newer anime. The quality, both of the animation and story, have improved in the last decade...

Just like I said: Anime is like movies. You can suggest Godfather, Star Wars, Chinatown and a bunch of other older movies, but there is newer movies that rock too.

^_^

Take FullMetal Alchimist: Brotherhood (the first Fullmetal is not based on the manga version, so don't bother watching).

It's a story about growing up. You have two kids that screwed up things with a naive and childish desire of reviving their mother. Things go bad. Now they have to face the consequences of their acts. They must grow up and take responsibility for themselves and others around.

From that the plots goes to unveil a mystery around the powers of alchemy, the limits of this art, the value of human life. You have strong characters the evolve throughout the story.

It's a good one.

Kitsuna10060:

shameduser:

Kitsuna10060:
snip

Looks like someone doesn't enjoy science fiction.

Also how can you stand Vampire Hunter D?

well i'm not a big fan of Sci-fi but there is some i enjoy.

rather easily? its not a bad movie (the first one) least it made sense the whole way through, unlike Akira -.- I'd have suggested Outlaw Star if i didn't think it was thing kinda 'normal anime tropes' he dislikes, not that he gave us any thing to go by anyway ...

Akira makes more sense if you've read the manga. I thought it made sense but that's just me.

From what I can gather, the debate didn't have any clear focus. It felt more like "Does USA or Japan produce the best animation?", which I think doesn't go anywhere. It would've been more appropriate comparing the animation styles in of themselves. Here is how see it:

Japanese animation seems to rely very often on caricatures, expressive features and symbolics, which as far as I recall it, is what Dan absolutely despises. The animation also seems to be more focused on details and has a rather interesting complexity to it. Japanese is simply more imaginative.

American animation on the other hand, uses realistic features and subtlety as main virtues for the most part. It seems to focus more upon emulating reality in the broad strokes, but tends to go for a "less is more"-philosophy as well. American animation is simply more mature.

So what style do I find superior? To be frank, none of them. Japanese animation has a larger breathing room for experimentation, but American animation doesn't resent to melodrama and empty sensationalism as its overseas equivalent. There is no right answer according to me.

What I want to see though, is some sort of synergy between these two styles. Not just in animation style, but also in narrative philosophies. That way, new ideas and concepts emerge, which gives people a breath of fresh air. On that note, why isn't anyone talking about European animation? Or any other animation style outside of Japan and the US?

*sigh* This old age argument again. I really don't have anything to add to this discussion. I can say that there really isn't any point for me to justify why I like anime, because it won't change his opinion. After all, he wouldn't have posted this article if he didn't expect this much backlash. Hold on, did I just use a double negative?

Okay, I'm gonna say it. Yahtzee and MovieBob are the only videomakers on the Escapist I know of who have a good acting or speaking voice. Everyone else seems to fall into the over-stressed, smug "I'm telling you what's right" speach patterns. While these two got better as they got into the video, the opening was still painfully forced and hard to listen to.

shameduser:

Kitsuna10060:

shameduser:

Looks like someone doesn't enjoy science fiction.

Also how can you stand Vampire Hunter D?

well i'm not a big fan of Sci-fi but there is some i enjoy.

rather easily? its not a bad movie (the first one) least it made sense the whole way through, unlike Akira -.- I'd have suggested Outlaw Star if i didn't think it was thing kinda 'normal anime tropes' he dislikes, not that he gave us any thing to go by anyway ...

Akira makes more sense if you've read the manga. I thought it made sense but that's just me.

*shrugs* i saw the movie, and it did not make me wanna read the manga at all

JoaoJatoba:

I am not stating that Cowboy Beebob and Trigun are bad. I love Trigun. I'm just trying to suggest newer anime. The quality, both of the animation and story, have improved in the last decade...

Just like I said: Anime is like movies. You can suggest Godfather, Star Wars, Chinatown and a bunch of other older movies, but there is newer movies that rock too.

^_^

You seem to have missed the point. It isn't that there "aren't" anime from post 2000 that couldn't be named, but that when trying to introduce someone to a new medium, you want to go with something that is well regarded.

I'm sorry; good, bad, or otherwise, FMA in both forms has a lot going against it with regards to presenting it to a newcomer. I've heard people get put off by just the voice of Al coming out of the Armor and how stupid of a concept they perceived that alone to be.

Again, you have to separate out what you as an individual enjoy and try to focus on what has the largest broad appeal. If you know the person you're trying to suck in has specific similar tastes as you, it can be easier. However, when dealing with someone you don't personally know, it is always best to go with the largest percent change of hitting the mark.

I wasn't trying to make it sound as if I took away from your original statement that you didn't think Bebop, Trigun, or some of the other mainstays here weren't good. I was simply trying to explain why they are mentioned first and show an example of how you have to separate your personal tastes when expressing suggestions to others.

Again, you mentioned Gantz. Personally, there is nothing redeeming about that show. The story is full of holes, the main character is overly frustrating, there is excessive sexual oppression towards women, and even the actual writers and production company were outwardly against strong feminine figures. That doesn't even hit all of the crying in that show... and that isn't a sarcastic jab at the characters... that's me actually bringing attention to how often they CRY. Is it a bad show... to me, yes it is an awful representation of Anime. Is it awesome for some people? Apparently it really is. Would I EVER suggest something like that as a supporting example to defend Anime? GOD NO. I might as well throw out La Blue Girl and Bible Black while I was at it.

JoaoJatoba:
Why people suggest old animes? Beebop? Trigun? All from the last millennium. Try Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (way better than the first release), Another (horror story), GANTZ, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. There is sooooo much more...

Did you seriously just suggest fugging GANTZ to someone who hasn't watched a lot of anime and hates the heavy cliches of the genre? Are you MENTAL!?

While I have enjoyed the manga quite a lot up to this point, the anime is GARBAGE.

Any of the meaningful stuff happens in the manga, and even then it's still filled to the brim with tits and gore.

BrunDeign:

JoaoJatoba:
Why people suggest old animes? Beebop? Trigun? All from the last millennium. Try Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood (way better than the first release), Another (horror story), GANTZ, Tokyo Magnitude 8.0. There is sooooo much more...

Did you seriously just suggest fugging GANTZ to someone who hasn't watched a lot of anime and hates the heavy cliches of the genre? Are you MENTAL!?

While I have enjoyed the manga quite a lot up to this point, the anime is GARBAGE.

Any of the meaningful stuff happens in the manga, and even then it's still filled to the brim with tits and gore.

The emphasis was on NEW anime, not Gantz... Shit, I didn't even watched it ,,,

Deshara:
Okay, I'm gonna say it. Yahtzee and MovieBob are the only videomakers on the Escapist I know of who have a good acting or speaking voice. Everyone else seems to fall into the over-stressed, smug "I'm telling you what's right" speach patterns. While these two got better as they got into the video, the opening was still painfully forced and hard to listen to.

The way I see it, they do purposefully bad acting at certain parts - that part included.

Baccano! and Durarara! are worth checking out.

I'd argue against anime as best animation style, mostly because the average anime actually has limited animation to begin with. It's made on a budget and mostly consists of stills and mouth flaps. That's not really animation. Granted, the stuff that has some money backing it looks far better than the western equivalent.

I'm surprised no one mentioned BIG O! its style is a lot like batman the animated series and its got a very noir vibe. Granted its got giant robots but they're diesel punk which is awesome.

edit: oh wait i just remembered because it got cancelled a season early it has that rushed confusing ending... so maybe not.

This is a very subjective issue, so I think I'm going to be pretty opinionated about this.

If we're talking about 'best' as in most skillfully crafted animation, then the likes of Pixar and Disney win hands down. They are masters of animation. Each and every character is meticulously animated - every gesture, every pose, every mannerism and idiosyncrasy.

Then there's style- United Production of America used very limited animation with very simple designs. However, because of these limiations, one might say that this type of aniamtion is far more creative in some ways than disney or even Pixar.

Then there's anime. I have a love/hate relationship towards this. Anime has way more variety in terms of its content and themes than most western animation. A lot of animes have a lot of complex characters and conflicts that would never be seen in an american cartoon. Despite the limited animation, one might prefer anime style animation because of its own shared conventions.

Obviously there is WAY more animation out there. Some people like experimental animation, like the Quay brothers or Jan Svankmajer.

In my personal opinion, I have no favourite. I'm sick of anime being animeish and I'm sick of disney being disneyish. Please, everyone, mix it up a little bit! Iyt's all good shit to me :P

Strong arguments on both sides. I dunno. I've always considered myself an in-between kinda guy. I enjoy shows on both sides of spectrum.

That being said, I find that I watch more Western animations than Eastern. No real reason. That's just how it is.

And if I could suggest one anime to Dan to attempt to watch, it'd be 'Eden of the East'. The show features a story very reminiscent of the Bourne series, with characters that I found myself growing attached to quite quickly. My main gripe of the show is that all the characters look like a bunch of middle and high school students, even though they are all in their early 20's. If ya can get past that though, I think it's a pretty decent watch.

Anyway, enjoy, and good luck!

itsausernamewhatofit:

artanis_neravar:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say Code Geass. It's a more serious anime so there are very few if not none of the visual animation jokes like the "rain drop", it was an original animations, so unlike DBZ or Naruto it's not based on a manga and as a result they didn't have to extended out episodes with fluff to try to match up with the manga. The animation is good, and it has a very well thought out story.

I love Code Geass and it's one of my favorite anime but I never really try to "convert" people with it, mostly because the character deign is by CLAMP and it really shows. I like the art personally but most of my friends just starting out with anime tend to think that the art looks bizarre and avoid it. What I would start with is either Cowboy Bebop (like he said he was going to try) or Baccano! For those less enlightened Bacanno! is an amazing anime about mobsters in the american 1920s-1930s. It centralizes around a train robbery and the crew of a Dutch ship who in the 1700s were given the secret to immortality. Also the dub of it is incredible.

Baccano! Is the best anime ever, and yes it has a very awesome dub, not to mention it also has cliffhangers that will make you keep watching it episode after episode

o dear god DO NO WATCH TRIGUN DAN! after hearing your tastes you will end up just hating it! This coming from a Guy who loves Trigun enough to actually represent one of the characters in the Series.

Death Note. That is the series i would suggest. Simply put its grim and isn't completely fantastical. or...

Bakuman! Yes BAKUMAN that series needs more love goddammit its soooooo good! Story of 2 aspiring Manga artists or...

Welcome to NHK! The life of an Otaku! or...

Genshiken! dear god its an amazing slice of life stuff you can get behind if you even remotely lived the life of a nerd/geek!

Personal favorite is still Ghost in the Shell (SAC, SAC2G, SSS inclusive...) I just want the world i live in to someday be like that world! At the least i wish to live long enough for it to get close! GO CYBORGS! :D

what is it with the east that they are willing to embrace every kind of tv genre in animation? Guess that is y i prefer east over west, variety. Not stuck with the same Family, Kids, or Adult Sketch Comedy that is so prevalent in Western Animations. (Futurama Ranks as one of my favorite if not my favorite animated series! And Todd McFarlane's spawn was epic when it was animated for HBO, we need more of that in west. Also Batman the Animated Series, EPIC! So in case yall think im a hater)

.........

Did that guy even know that Aeon Flux was written AND animated by Peter Chung a KOREAN American?? Basically the point falls in favor for the Anime/Eastern Animation.

Fool

Wow, Dan knows almost literally nothing about anime.

Wait wait wait wait... Dan just equated Anime to terrorism?! Wow.

GamemasterAnthony:
Suggestion: Ghost in the Shell

Both of the movies AND the "Stand Alone Complex" series.

This MAY make you change your mind about anime, Dan.

Adding to this point; Ghost in the Shell is an anime with western audiences in mind. I don't think I've seen a human character "tear drop" in a single episode. Definitely hit the movies. They're complex, deep, and beautifully animated. The Series (Stand Along Complex) dips into anime tropes a little with its Tachikoma characters.

Harbinger_:
Wait wait wait wait... Dan just equated Anime to terrorism?! Wow.

To answer your question, no. Dan compared the perceptions some people have about Muslims to terrorists. There are Muslims, and then there are extremists that we call terrorists. In his argument, there are extremes, and that is all we see on the surface because these are the ones that stand out the most.

GamemasterAnthony:
Suggestion: Ghost in the Shell

Both of the movies AND the "Stand Alone Complex" series.

This MAY make you change your mind about anime, Dan.

YES, this (although 1st 2 movies are better to watch after series and 3rd movie)
And I'm still unsure if and how series/3rd movie are connected to 1st and 2nd movie

Also really good anime for beginners
Steins;Gate
It is set in present days
Most of main characters are 20+ years old (so no pedobear moments- I find this stuff especially disturbing about anime)
Yes, premise is kinda ridiculous (modified microwave+mobile phone=primitive time machine), but I've seen worse
It is fun, it is sad, it is interesting, it is worth watching
(also ending song is awesome, which is rare in anime)

P.S. Regarding "Cowboy Beebop" and "Trigun"- these are spacetern animes. Maybe they are good, but I watched 1st 5 episodes from them and wasn't impressed. So it isn't best series to start with.

Mikeyfell:
*Golf clap*
It's nice to see that I'm not the only one who would like to see Dan Chris and Kyle held to the standard of professional debaters. This show would have a very different outcome week to week if you or I were judging these arguments.

A lot of 0-0 ties, that's for sure.

I watch it for the same reason that I watch the average political debate: because listening to people intentionally throw out ridiculously illogical, fallacious arguments for a position they don't actually believe in can be funny if executed right.

western style varies too much and ranges from toony to dark and gritty.

not that anime doesnt also, but its art style is easily recognized as anime. the only way you know western is western is that it isnt anime.

i love both, but one has disney, don bluth, ect. i go western.

It's been several months since the release of this episode, but given the responses here, I felt obligated (first world problems!) to sign-up for an account, just to furnish several "good" examples of ostensibly Japanese animation that may or may not tickle Dan's fancy. I am prefacing this list with the foreknowledge that I am not too big a fan of most anime, either, if only because the majority is, in fact, awful. Regardless, I suspect I have seen and liked more than Dan. My goals in that arena have always been to find the very best this genre has to offer and I believe the numbered list below contains much of it, at least of the more-accessible variety. For the record, I haven't listed any Miyazaki films; those gems are already well-covered territory.

Also, in regards to the other anime shows listed:
a. I'm not expecting Dan to have the patience for Trigun. In spite of the great overarching long-form story, the thing is a hideously cliched trope-fest in a box.
b. Cowboy Bebop, while excellent (yes, excellent), is beginning to show its age, and while even the initial episodes are good, it can still be borderline iffy in the eyes of some.
c. - Dan, for the love of God, don't start with the movies of Ghost in the Shell. The TV show is nearly flawless, however.
d. I tip my hat to the fine fellows who mentioned Code Geass, Baccano!, and Death Note.

My list:
----------------------------------------------------
0. Ghost in the Shell TV show, seasons #1 & #2. These speak for themselves.

1. Darker than Black - interesting horror/shadowrun/x-men combination with its own set of rules. Yes, they eventually explain the "stars thing".

2. Mushi Shi - for a completely different and slow pacing, these mostly stand-alone episodes are simply amazing story-telling. However, the folksy opening theme (which I enjoyed) is apparently not for everyone.

3. Baccano! - only watch this if you're still interested in anime after watching any of the other items here. This is a superb series, but there are several spots in it where they pull a few anime tropes. Fewer than most. Unfortunately, they are still present. Just keep in mind when you begin watching that those two goofballs you see gold-digging in the beginning are decidedly not the main characters, as lovable as they are.

4. Moribito - this unnecessarily slows down in the middle of the story, but I still enjoyed it. The first few episodes have great pacing, and it does pick-up again, albeit with a bizarre but satisfying payoff. I think it deserves a watch.

5. Blood the Last Vampire - the movie, NOT the tv series. Stay away from the series!
This incredibly short gem of a movie was fun and filled with great promise until the series dropped in and ultimately ruined the character, her mystery, and her charm, entirely.

6. Hell Girl - another television show with completely different pacing, this little horror-show is composed entirely of stand-alone episodes with a highly entertaining twist on formula-style shows.

There's also the Leiji Matsumoto contingent: Yamato/Star Blazers, (2199 will dazzle when that gets released in the states), Arcadia of my Youth is fun, Galaxy Express 999 was fun.

There are many more I could've listed, but it would be in bad taste and form to immediately foist Ninja Scroll, Golgo 13, Jin Ro, Escaflowne, Avatar, Eden of the East, or a dozen others upon those who didn't know what to expect, well - yeah some of these just shock you, although Avatar is just plain fun & incredible story-telling.

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