The Big Picture: Not Okay

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The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller:

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.

The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.

Thank you Bob for calling out gaming culture once again. I am definitely sharing this video around so folks can hear this really awesome message.

While videos like this shouldn't have to exist, we live in a very unkind world in which they have become necessary. This was definitely my favorite of your recent episodes. Thank you for speaking out against misogyny Bob! :)

Found clip on Youtube, 13 minutes long, skipped through it... This guy is an idiot.

No one comment seemed too over the top (I didn't watch the whole thing) and I'm sure the guy thought he was being funny but the sheer non-stop nature of his persistent remarks clearly took it all too far.

My guess, he thought he was being funny and flirtatious and as he clearly has poor social skills regarding women it failed bad.

General rule for any guys out there with similar issues... When in doubt speak to her exactly as you would to any guy.
When I ask a guy about the size of his cock I am clearly joking, if I then say "But dude, seriously, how big is it?" then my friends are gonna start looking at me funny.
If I say to a girl (in the right context) how big are your boobs and... Actually, I have never said that to a woman and I actually cannot think of an appropriate time to ask that outside of clothes shopping.

In short, 21st century people. Times are a changin.

Could see the theme of this episode coming from a mile away when I read the title. It's not surprising that a guy who thinks that a movie where dozens of men murder each other is mysogynistic because it features a scene where a woman is treated as a sex object (because being treated as a sex object is much worse than being treated as a death object) thinks that this is NOT OKAY (but mass murder is presumably okay in his eyes, if you apply that logic consistently).

As is usually for hypersensitive types like this, verbal abuse in the form of sexism, racism, or homophobia is treated as exceptionally horrible; as if these were somehow exceptions rather than the norm for a community that abuses everyone for everything, usually much worse ones than the aforementioned three.

If he just wanted to complain about how some parts of the community - the parts he is a mmeber of, apparently - are thuroughly abuse this way then that's fine, but pretending like the abuse of these groups is something especially horrible is an inherently discriminatory approach to take in itself, even against the group it's arguing on the behalf of, heavily implying as it does that the members of those groups are in more need of protection than "normal" people.

The "it's not okay to use rape as a casual synonym for defeat" is particularily pathetic an emotional appeal. "Rape = no", "murder = yes" shows such a shocking lack of perspective and consistency that it's hard to imagine he's capable of empathizing with other people, or thinking critically, at all, rather than just regurgitating pop culture sentationalism. As is the norm for those who champion the position he's taken, he completely loses his ability to distinguish fantasy from reality the second sex, gender, and race is mentioned.

Ironic that he makes without irony an appeal to "having a serious conversation", when this entire video was nothing close to an attempt at a serious conversation, presenting a perspective so far from nuanced that it cearly made no attempt at being so.

As soon as you said the term "sexism," I immediately groaned, thinking we were in for one of those episodes(shockingly, I don't agree with everything you say, or at least the way you present your stance). And then... you followed that up with a well reasoned argument bereft of your usual vitriol that I find so distasteful. Good topic, and a good episode, Bob.

I... I don't know where I stand. I'm a gamer and have never thrown discrimination like this about (perhaps because my few forays into voice chat so far have been failed attempts to warn people about spys in TF2) but I'm not sure what should be done or if indeed anything should be done about the 'bad apples'.
Is it our place to deal with the despicable within our community any more than those who read books or watch films should challenge other moviegoers or bookworms? Is our hobby a special case by way of its interactive nature? Because in a multiplayer match we are all co-operating to create the experience does it arise from this that we have a special responsibility to prune our culture? Really in all these spheres should what community to belong to matter, shouldn't we just be against the narrow minded as a society? Frankly I don't know, maybe it just needs a little more reflection.
Are we only to challenge these people or should they be excluded from gaming? You can only really be moral in your own actions, you can't make someone moral by the wrong end of a sword (or banhammer) so it only would make sense to exclude them so that no one might be offended. And if we do away with their right to speak their mind (no matter how bigoted) are we not assuming that we are incontravertibly right before hearing a word out of their mouths, any and all matters should be open to discussion and debate no matter how unpalatable.
But if we allow them to jibe and harass then many girls may choose to remain anonymous or even leave the community, easily a greater loss then the sexists.

I don't know Escapist, I just don't know. You tell me. (politely)

TL:DR a) Is it our place to deal with sexists
b) What should be done?
c) I have a theosaurus.

Bob,

You should do a big picture on just free speech. I get so tired of hearing people using the words "free speech" as if it protects their speech from any ramifications. Not does it only deal with how the government can criminally prosecute you (this annoys me when people think being banned from a forum/post deleted is against their free speech), but it also cannot infringe on other rights. So many people are completely ignorant as to what free speech actually means (at least in the US 1st Amendment context).

This recalls to mind an incident that happened to me while I was playing L4D2 several months ago. I was playing with two other males and one female. Everyone was pretty friendly although not terribly good.
Anyway, at the airport level, in the terminal right before the safe-house, we were getting eaten alive. In the end three of us were incapacitated except for the female. At first I tried to tell her to get into the safe house and let us die. By the time she got around to trying that she was mobbed in the safe-room. One of the other guys told her to "just close the door" but he didn't realize that she was mobbed.
So... I say "she can't, she is getting gang-raped in there". As soon as I said it I felt it was very awkward and held down my push to talk button and said "so to speak". She didn't seem to mind though so I didn't say anything else.
I know the last thing I would ever want to do is make someone else feel uncomfortable playing a game they bought. As long as people treat me well I will treat them well. There is certainly a part of gaming culture that IS intrinsically sexist, in an immature sort of way. Although as gamer's continue to get older (especially average age of a gamer) and more females and other minority groups start playing games, the better this problem will get.

Realitycrash:

Father Time:

Realitycrash:

Nothing (and I repeat; NOTHING) cause harm "by necessity", even a gunshot-wound to the head can miraculously do more good than harm (in some convoluted way), but it is, as it is with everything else, the likelihood of something causing harm that we debate. And since racial slurs and bigoted speech are more likely than not in most occasions to cause harm, it is to be frowned (i.e faced with legal action) upon.

How do racial slurs cause harm? And being offended does not count.

Lol?
Being offended DOES count.

Bullshit. Being offended does not cause you harm. But I guess if you want to go down that road all the games that are offensive to the likes of Thompson should be banned.

I don't think you're easily offended but I couldn't find this anywhere else.

Realitycrash:

It causes harm in the same way that a sexist comment at the workplace causes harm, or that bullying causes harm in schools.

You're going to compare being offended to harrassment and being beaten up? You really want to stick with that?

And workplace comments are protected by the first amendment. You can still get fired for them but you can't be arrested for them.

Eri:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller:

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.

The problem with this theory is context. When playing a game where killing is a part of the game, saying "I just killed you" is an observational statement of the situation. Certainly there are other options like killing your character and such but in a game where killing is the point, equating it to a capital crime is far fetched.

Rape on the other hand has always equated to the unwilling forceful domination of another person and historically is meant in a sexual manner. That does not equate to what's going on in most games and when in the wrong group has ugly results. I have NEVER seen anyone who actually was raped respond well to hearing that, male or female. There are better options (wafflestomped is a personal preference) and the less the term "rape " is used, he happier I'll be.

Agreed with most but i draw the line at claiming rape as defeat is sexist. By psychological definitions rape is a crime of dominance and dominance usually means someone is dominated and being dominated against your will usually means what? If you guess defeat you are correct. Furthermore it is a crime perpetrated by humans against other humans or animals against other animals. back in 2010 when PA did the dickwolves joke they got in unbelievable trouble and now they are the top example of rape culture if you go to Wikipedia. It was not trivialized or misused it was just used in a joke to show someones unwillingness to help because they did not have to and would not be penalized. And subsequently that nothing in warcraft mattered but that was already known. They got shit tons of flak for that. Why? Because unlike any other crime, rape is still viewed as the most heinous thing ever to be perpetrated by one human to ano-sorry one man unto a woman. Rape is the only crime where seeing if the victim might be lying is viewed as something that warrants a death sentence. Frankly if the crime of rape got trivialized we would not lose anything. Because if it got trivialized we would essentially be dousing the powder for straw feminists. While it would be trivialized it would be done so in a way different from murder. The crime would still be bad and when brought up in discussion it would still be an item of sadness but it would lose its potency when it comes to using it as firepower for a messed up agenda. Both from the right and from straw feminists. While murder is viewed as bad and when brought up that someone you know was murdered it is sad but its always tempered by "in a better place" as if to mean his death was meaningless. Death is never used to further an agenda because it is trivialized to worthlessness and it is only sad when it happens to a loved one. That would not happen if rape were trivialized. Killing the weight the word has is the only way to keep it from being used to further something rotten. In short popular view on crime is that death is cheap and rape is not.

I am by no means saying use of rape in place of killed you. It is still stupid and misuse and while i hate such stupidity i do think that rape as a casual synonym for defeat is okay. Stupid and a misuse of the word and i rather not hear it when i get killed in a game but i am okay with trivializing the word. It is already thrown about in the political realm because it is volatile when used improperly. It is a dangerous word. The words weight and volatility is totally and 100% out of balance with the weight of the crime and the word deserves to be taken down a peg. That said the casual use of the word would only mean that(similar to how fascist behavior cannot be called fascist with hope of making others realize it) it would just be ignored when used as a stepping stone. But making the word useless out of context is only one way to stop its overuse. Any other ideas?

LordLundar:

Eri:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller:

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.

The problem with this theory is context. When playing a game where killing is a part of the game, saying "I just killed you" is an observational statement of the situation. Certainly there are other options like killing your character and such but in a game where killing is the point, equating it to a capital crime is far fetched.

Rape on the other hand has always equated to the unwilling forceful domination of another person and historically is meant in a sexual manner. That does not equate to what's going on in most games and when in the wrong group has ugly results. I have NEVER seen anyone who actually was raped respond well to hearing that, male or female. There are better options (wafflestomped is a personal preference) and the less the term "rape " is used, he happier I'll be.

what about all the poor people that have been wafflestomped? Won't someone think of the wafflestomp victims?!?!

@thisbymaster,

Not all ideas are equally valid. The idea that I can turn into a mushroom and float off to wonderland is not nearly as valid as the concept of, say, gravity. There is absolutely nothing that says I should respect all ideas equally and given the choices, I find it fine to condemn reprehensible behavior. Personally, if people talk like that in my house, I kick them out.

thisbymaster:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.

I agree and I say the reason this is so common is that people are trying to annoy their opponent and when people can speak freely they will say things you don't agree with or are unacceptable to your beliefs. You could say this is a kickback against the PC culture we live in where people can't say offensive things no matter the context or situation. It's the internet grow thicker skin.

People also apply their own beliefs to these things for example I have heard female colleagues say "all men are bastards" around male friends and colleagues but I have never heard any male friends or colleagues or friends say "all women are bitches" around female colleagues or friends. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it is acceptable in real life. Male bashing is more socially acceptable than female bashing. This is probably down to the fact that men are less likely to challenge a woman on something like this, to be honest it doesn't bother me except for the double standard.

Ugh. This had to be said, yes, but it was said in the wrong place. The Escapist is (mostly) made up of a mature community and chances are the people who really need to see this video won't. The only way to fix this is to spread the video. Hurry, we must spread it!

Thank you, Bob! Just.. thank you!
I had heard about this from the forums and, I.. I had to stop reading it part way through..

I hope Bakhtanians' apology is sincere. A part of me just.. doesn't want to believe people genuinely say most of the stuff they say over the internet.

The fighting genre is one of the genres I first learned when my uncle and my sister showed me games.
I really have only played with my family and a few close friends, and I have yet to really try online.

Seeing this, and the other comments, maybe I should avoid that, or at least, just not have my mic set up.
I don't understand "trash talking," anyways... o.o

Still.. thank you.

thisbymaster:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.

So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.

PotatoeMan:

thisbymaster:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.

I agree and I say the reason this is so common is that people are trying to annoy their opponent and when people can speak freely they will say things you don't agree with or are unacceptable to your beliefs. You could say this is a kickback against the PC culture we live in where people can't say offensive things no matter the context or situation. It's the internet grow thicker skin.

People also apply their own beliefs to these things for example I have heard female colleagues say "all men are bastards" around male friends and colleagues but I have never heard any male friends or colleagues or friends say "all women are bitches" around female colleagues or friends. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it is acceptable in real life. Male bashing is more socially acceptable than female bashing. This is probably down to the fact that men are less likely to challenge a woman on something like this, to be honest it doesn't bother me except for the double standard.

Can't argue this.

I'd never dream of generalizing all women and speaking to them in such a way, because of how I was brought up. It's just wrong to do that to any group, for obvious reasons.

Meanwhile however, I'm getting constantly told "ALL MEN ARE BASTARDS" by my girlfriend's drunken friend whenever a group of us all go out for the evening and this is considered acceptable.
As the above poster, it doesn't make me angry. But the clear double standard does.

EDIT: Thinking on, one last point. As much as I agree with Bob that these people are wrong in this case...
That does not make them objectively wrong. It's not our place to tell people how to speak and what they are allowed and not allowed to say. No law changes that in my mind.
It's our job to reason with them. To try show them WHY they are wrong. To try help them understand others point of view.
Not to threaten them to agree with our opinion under threat of financial ruin/jail.

Nerd Rage! Rawr!

Eri:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller:

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.

Gee... So let me get this straight... When I say "Ha! Ha! I just tore out your throat!" after I knife someone in Battlefield 3, it's almost as bad as saying I raped someone? I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Tearing out someone's throat with a big-ass knife is perfectly socially acceptable, you just better not make it into a sexual thing.

People want to object to what language you use when you simulate killing someone. F-n' Hilarious.

OT: What's your point Bob? You don't approve of people who use sexist/bigoted language? Someone get him a freaking metal for controversy. I honestly don't understand what he's suggesting, I'm pretty sure everyone who uses that type of language is already aware of how socially unacceptable it is, which is why they only use it anonymously. So what is Bob suggesting we do about it?

I don't think anyone has actually made the argument that it's OKAY just because it's an entrenched practice. I think the argument is that because it's an entrenched practice there isn't much you can do to stop it, other than implementing something controversial like the system that Blizzard tried to use that forced people to use their real names. Is that what Bob is suggesting? Or does he just want to sit around a drum circle, sing Kumbaya, and give lectures over the internet that the target audience isn't going to listen to?

I'm strongly against all the nitpicky 'sexist' things that are being rammed into our consciousness. Like it was a thing here in Britain were you'd get told off in public buildings for saying things along the lines of 'hey guys' and other phrases that would otherwise not include women in it when there was a women present. I'm so glad that got shot down quicker than a Guantanamo escapee. It's just utterly stupid and pointless, and a waste of time. And all it does is help sexism become such a joke topic.

But THIS is a perfect example of what types of sexism needs to be addressed.

Although I don't agree with the not okay using 'rape' as synonymous with getting beat. Drunk people say 'I'm slaughtered' which infers they were cut down and mutilated. Guys who hate work will say that 'work was hell' as if to infer that everyone they came into contact with was a tortured soul that had been sentenced to damnation for all eternity. And that's not to mention that they hate work. They harbor such a deep loathing for it, and anything involved that they hate something.

It's just a small mutation of the English language I suppose. I dunno, i'm sure other people's opinions will be different.

Eri:
The only thing I disagree with is the rape thing. Saying I shouldn't use rape is sexist in itself. Men CAN BE RAPED. Both men and women can have valid feelings on the word rape, Don't try to imply that because I'm a man I should not use that word.

mrblakemiller:

I really want to dumb this down, because this is a point I'd really like to hit home with everyone who reads this. If you disagree with me and think the word "rape" should never appear on XBOX LIVE (for instance), look at these two sentences:

"Aw man, I just raped you!"

"Aw man, I just killed you!"

Take the criteria you would use to determine the first sentence is unacceptable and apply them to the second sentence. I submit that murdering someone is even worse than raping someone, but we usually don't seem to have a problem with the use of the word "kill" in a metaphorical sense. If we believe we can use a word for more than just its most stark and obvious meaning, then there is no reason to proscribe the use of the word "rape." Intelligent dialogue disagreeing with my judgment would be welcomed.

And this. This exactly. Murder is worse than rape, period.

At what point was it said that men should not use that word? I don't remember this being gender specific.

The Internet is a big place. I'm a fan of ignoring shit you don't like. Twenty-motherfucking-twelve and people are still bitching about men being as sexist when they talk to other men?

him over there:

thisbymaster:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.

So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.

It is simple, I may not agree with what you have to say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.

Disclaimer: The first sentence or the post that follows it is not meant to be baiting. I am a professor of philosophy and this is a sincere statement of my feelings.

Some of the views expressed in this video hurt me on a deep emotional level. If it was just one man's views then I wouldn't give it much thought since mistakes happen and it's often very hard to see, admit and correct one's own mistake. However, the delusion in question seems to have spread over large portions of humanity, including some of our best and brightest (Movie Bob being an example for both), and I am starting to feel like a the last sane guy in the asylum.

The mistake I am talking about is:

Unlike saying proven objective truths (for example "Randomly attacking people on the street will not make you popular among the police officers."), expressing purely subjective opinions does not obligate other people to agree with you (for example, I believe that the answer to most of philosophical question can be found in one or more episodes of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer', but I do not think that the fact Stanford didn't include that show in their curriculum makes Stanford's philosophy program inadequate.)

So far, I am sure that most of you are on board with me. However, for reasons that are entirely mysterious to me, most people believe that, if they wish it REALLY hard, their subjective opinions will MAGICALLY BECOME OBJECTIVE TRUTHS! Aalakazam!

For the betterment of the human race, I present you with a short list of things that DO NOT transmogrify your opinions into objective truths:

1. Shouting.
2. The fact that YOU really believe it to be true, despite the lack of conclusive evidence (unless you are being played by Kevin Costner).
3. The fact that you find the opposing opinion offensive does not make you right, it makes you small-minded (or else every racist, homophobe or fanatic of any kind would be a moral authority by virtue of insanity).
4. Equating the act of expressing an opinion that you disagree with or using an expression that you dislike (but which in itself is not meant as an actual threat against the life or well-being of another person) with an act of aggression does not make you extra sensitive; it makes you insane. (this seems to be stupidity du jour these days. As a method of reality check, I invite all of you 'words can hurt just as bad' people to go to find a rape victim and say to him/her: "What happened to you is terrible. It is just as bad as using 'rape' as a casual synonym for defeat.")

People do not need your permission to have or to express an opinion. If you think that they are wrong - challenge them. If you know them to be logically incorrect - prove it. If you can't but you are still bothered that they are allowed to freely speak their mind -

THEN
GROW
THE
*CENSORED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THIS WORD EXISTS*
UP!!!

ADDED on 3.7.2012. 9.18h

5. The fact that many people share your opinion does not prove your opinion to an objective truth (if you disagree, then please prove me wrong. Gather a herd of people who also don't believe me and win the lottery 10 times in a row by making everyone share your belief that you are going to win. :)

I was getting tired of seeing a bunch of columns, videos etc. about this incident, then I remembered that unless there was a (perhaps disproportionate) response to every instance of prejudice in nerd culture, assholes like Aris won't get it through their thick heads that no, it's not okay. Bob's response was particularly well made.

I find that the main problem with gaming subculture isn't so much that it's racist/sexist/whatever, but that it hates change and reasonable argument. People will defend sexual harassment in the same way that they'll defend that overpowered classes shouldn't be changed - out of an emotional outset that equals a small part of the experience with the whole, without any care or attention for The Big Picture™. This kind of environment will foster sickening viewpoints like those the same way a damp, dark closed fosters moss.

Like moss, the only thing to do against it is to put it out into the sun. Bring those problems into full view and let everyone know that it's bad until it's gone. Preach on, brothers and sisters.

Time to go stand in the corner, Nerd Limbaugh.

thisbymaster:

him over there:

thisbymaster:
The problem with going along with Bob's ideas is that it makes gaming an exclusive environment. Which is directly opposite of the idea of gaming as a whole. It is to be all inclusive, all ideas, all genders and all ideologies. Even if you don't agree with them, even if you don't like them. Their ideas are just as valid as yours. Everyone is free to disagree and argue, that is natural for human groups. Gaming isn't some country club that you can kick out the people you disagree with, you are free to reason with them but they are also free to ignore you. If you cannot handle this, then you are the one with the problem.

So you are saying that instead of being entitled to not be offended and kick people out we are all entitled to name call back those who name called us? Mutual Retaliation instead of proactive removal of those with almost seemingly universal unpopular or rude opinions? If so I think that I need to figure out how your brain works because I need to get in on it.

It is simple, I may not agree with what you have to say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it.

Good to know there are thick skinned people like you here. I always told myself that tolerance is a two way street. A person who is racist, a homophobe, misogynist or what have you can keep those thoughts, they can say those thoughts, they can make people angry with those thoughts and words. The second they hurt people (being offended is not hurting people by the way) you can punish them, but you can't punish them for thinking or saying them because then you're persecuting them for what they think.You don't get to stop them, you just get to make them mad back.

I DO like it when Bob gets into deeper subjects, or more controversial topics. I also like it when he has fun with topics, especially the comic book episodes. I don't like his attempts at humor, though, they all pretty much suck. Other than that, MovieBob rocks!

As to the subject matter, it's not gaming-related, but I go to a forum where people suffer from abuse and discrimination (at least some of them do, anyway) and that forum is a safe haven for then to just relax, make friends, and talking about controversial issues head-on and not be afraid to address controversial issues in stuff they really like.

The forum? Equestria Daily. The controversial stuff? Can be anything, really, but sometimes it's even the stuff that gathered us there in the first place: My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

http://www.equestriaforums.com/

Don't think a little girl's show CAN be controversial?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2CRjPO73Dg

FYI, this was a censored scene available on iTunes, because the gray pegasus was deemed offensive to those who had mentally disabled friends and family. Yeah. :/

So yeah, anti-intellectual discussion, and disrespectful behavior is pretty much not welcome there, and I, for one, am glad for that.

Let's compare and contrast a little, shall we?

Case 1) Rush Limbaugh, 'Merican talk radio hound who routinely compares giving females equal standing in culture to the Nazi regime, made some disparaging remarks about a female law school student arguing before Congress for the medical and financial needs for birth control to be covered by health insurance programs. An apology was issued after his sponsors started walking out. The response from his contemporaries has been universally "Why did he have to use those words?"

Case 2) Bakhtanian uses language waaaaaaaaay more emotionally scarring than that of a blowhard radio personality towards someone he's supposed to be helping, then proceeds to say that his words are valid because, well, everyone else has been doing this for years now. An apology was issued after he had been called out on his offensive behavior by various gaming news sites. The response from his contemporaries has been a mix between "Why is this even an issue?" and "You got a problem with this, go play something else."

I guess the part that really puzzles me in this whole matter is this: The gaming industry has built itself around regular advances in technology. Most of the critically acclaimed titles from the past three to five years have been challenging the conventional notions of what should be expected when you pick up a controller. So why do we allow ourselves to not only enshrine, but vigorously defend a part of the surrounding culture? What sort of cognitive disconnect is required to demand regular changes in the formula from Capcom's fighting games, and then antagonize anyone who spots room for improvement in the surrounding community?

Gaming is built on change. Why is the gaming fandom intent on resisting change?

I agree with you, and everything you have said. That's not free speech and I'd be happy to support you argument, or stake someone who's too suborn to admit that there wrong. But I also want to bring up something to ponder on. Racism is wrong, but even the slightest mention of someone being racist seems to bring down the hammer of justice just a bit too early. Mainly RE5. No one complained when RE4 came out, and being Mexican, I can understand why we didn't get offended. Mainly because we have a long stained history with the Spanish, so were okay with it. But I think the issue of racism is getting more and more sensitive.

GaltarDude1138:
I don't dig out this clip often, but when I do...

I can't begin to describe how fitting that clip was (and it reminded me of one of the best movies ever).

As for the topic, I grew up in the Caribbean. While woman effectively don't play videogames in the island I grew up in, the gaming community was always happy to welcome anyone in and have a good time. So I haven't really come across this mentality that anyone, appart from a dribbler*, would fundamentally be of a lower playing class.
So yea, news to me and bullshit to his line of logic. Maybe he has a confined circle for which eliminating deliberately hurtful -isms would damage them, but the wider community I know, while having fun with bashing every (including oneself) would never intentionally aim to insult or hurt someone with -isms or anything else. Tense, determined players we were, cutthroat yep, in anyway inclined to consider someone inferior, never.

*We had a few slower learners in our circle of players but they were excillent people and did do well. But there was one, only one, who made a clear and definite effort to completely ignore anything we said, anything even a scantioned judge said, in favor of his opinion, even when he himself knew he was missing something. That my friends is what I call a dribbler, and while I always had fun with the slower people and had endles patience, I completely gave up on that one guy on the ground that if he didn't want to listen I was wasting my breath.

illas:
I agreed with Bob right up to the point of using "rape" as a descriptor.

In the standard gaming scenario, "rape" is not being used to describe what literally happened. Typically, is being used hyperbolically to describe the incident eg: in the case of a vicious, unjustifiable, penetrative assault. Criticising it on this level seems odd, since we don't complain about using "killed", "owned", "butchered" or "destroyed" in such a circumstance (and if one is interpreting it literally, murder is equally - if not more - serious than rape).

Furthermore, rape is not an intrinsically female-victim issue either. I would go as far as to suggest that one guy saying "I raped you" to another guy to be more a homosexual threat characterized by desires of non-gender-specific sexual dominance than a product of male-on-female rape being glamorised.

Pretty much 100 percent agreement on this. You may wish to argue that society as a whole has become more crass and more commonly uses extremely negative words, but that isn't necessarily sexism. Most people who use the term "rape" in the sense of colloquialism are just as likely to use it to describe themselves. For example, when forced to listen to music I find less then pleasurable, I may refer to it as "raping my ears". Is it a vulgar way to say that I dislike the music? Yes. Is it sexist? No. Could I be a little gentler about it? Sure, but where's the fun in that?

Not saying that it never is sexist...but it isn't always.

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