Jimquisition: On-Disc DLC Cannot Be Justified

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DVS BSTrD:
But Jim! That's the way the developers wanted the game to be! Don't you understand asking them to get rid of On-Disk DLC would impune the artistic integrity of the game! Do you WANT to set gaming back 10 years (to when they knew better)? It's THEIR game! Think how the developers must feel every time you point out something they shouldn't have done! LEAVE THE POOR DEVELOPERS ALONE! LEAVE THEM ALONE!Kony 2012!
-Movie Bob

Sorry, but I will give you a 1/10. Its the best I can do.

You failed to bring up how "entitled" gamers are. This must be done at least 5 times in each sentence to make it a believable parody of Bob.

Jim one thing you didn't mention which is kind of interesting is that publishers appear to use on disc DLC to scam Microsoft and Sony as well I believe.

See it's recently come to light I'm sure you're aware is that Microsoft and Sony Charge Publishers and developers for any additional content thats published to live and PSonline. This includes Patches and DLC. I wanna say the average cost was like 50k a 1mb Im not sure. Several indie have stated that as reason they are leaving console development. They actually can't afford to patch games.

So by putting content on the Disc I assume they're also scaming M&S out of server content money.

Kinda funny scaming us scaming them scaming everybody

SCAM SCAM SCAM Wonderful SCAM!

ur thots? (I love how awful that saying is.)

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

DVS BSTrD:
But Jim! That's the way the developers wanted the game to be! Don't you understand asking them to get rid of On-Disk DLC would impune the artistic integrity of the game! Do you WANT to set gaming back 10 years (to when they knew better)? It's THEIR game! Think how the developers must feel every time you point out something they shouldn't have done! LEAVE THE POOR DEVELOPERS ALONE! LEAVE THEM ALONE!Kony 2012!
-Movie Bob

Sorry, but I will give you a 1/10. Its the best I can do.

You failed to bring up how "entitled" gamers are. This must be done at least 5 times in each sentence to make it a believable parody of Bob.

If you want to make it even more convincing you have to shoehorn in

A) References to Bob's life in high school, try to link RME with jocks.
B) Mention Feminism but have a creepy rant about how totally hot a lesbian romance between Princess Peach and Daisy would be.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

DVS BSTrD:
But Jim! That's the way the developers wanted the game to be! Don't you understand asking them to get rid of On-Disk DLC would impune the artistic integrity of the game! Do you WANT to set gaming back 10 years (to when they knew better)? It's THEIR game! Think how the developers must feel every time you point out something they shouldn't have done! LEAVE THE POOR DEVELOPERS ALONE! LEAVE THEM ALONE!Kony 2012!
-Movie Bob

Sorry, but I will give you a 1/10. Its the best I can do.

You failed to bring up how "entitled" gamers are. This must be done at least 5 times in each sentence to make it a believable parody of Bob.

Rating bombing a finished produced just because the creator left out a key element that should obviously have been included from the very beginning? Typical entitled gamer!

-Movie Bob

370999:
If you want to make it even more convincing you have to shoehorn in

A) References to Bob's life in high school, try to link RME with jocks.
B) Mention Feminism but have a creepy rant about how totally hot a lesbian romance between Princess Peach and Daisy would be.

Sorry but that's DLC. You'll have to wait 2 months then join the publisher's club, even though it's already included On-post^^^

piscian:
SCAM SCAM SCAM Wonderful SCAM!

ur thots? (I love how awful that saying is.)

I DON'T LIKE SCAM!

oh Jim that was great, from a programers point of view it's stupid to have content on disc then making said consumer buy that content you already payed for. I can actually see law-suits out this from game contracts when you buy the game unless they have changed those 100 page legalese BS again. The simple fact is that if the content exist on the disc then let the players have accesses to it or host it online to legitimately call it dlc.

Right on Jim. They've realized that DLC is a big cash cow and at the same time it sells the best the closer to release of the actual game it is released. So, day one DLC. Most of it so far has been stuff that arguably should have been part of the main game all along. But as long as people still buy the day one DLC and the games that do it the publisher and developers will keep doing.

I mean Jim, if you could reliably sell "An extra minute with Jim", to a bunch of stupid, peasants like us who watch you, wouldn't you do it?

Jim, I rarely disagree with you, but I think you don't know enough about development cycles to have a leg to stand on here.

Let's get right to the meat of the situation: would you rather have the content as on disk DLC, day 1 actual download DLC, or would you rather not have the content.

DVS BSTrD:
Sorry but that's DLC. You'll have to wait 2 months then join the publisher's club, even though it's already included On-post^^^

LOL. Well played. Your posts in this thread have my full approval. 12/10.

AbstractStream:
Have I just fallen in love with Jim? I think I have.

Thanks for voicing how most of us feel towards on-disc dlc. (Which shouldn't even be called dlc, just like you said.)

Who's worse with the dlc stuff? Capcom or EA?

No! Don't say that. They might see/hear that and turn it into a contest.

As for the topic at hand? Well they will probably never stop this, so they can at LEAST be honest about what it really is.

I've heard some of the on disc content was just unfinished/untested elements that got cut for time, and your paying for a large patch that makes it payable.

targren:

I've been out of the series for awhile. When did "M. Bison" become "Vega?"

kinda of, always
in the Japaneses version Balrog is named M.Bison. kinda sounds like M.Tyson doesn't it? so they switched names as follows

US--------J
Vega------Balrog
M.Bison---Vega
Balrog----M.Bison

OT:
all i have to say is

thank god for Jim (and the axe was pretty nice)

Holy crap, is that the Xenomorph shaped dagger-axe combo?!

If they are on a shipping cycle and the game is already finished, why don't the various developers move on to next projects?

Here's my stance with DLC and it will always be the same.

I love DLC. It extends the life of my game, and if it's worth while, it will always get my cash. See Dungeon Defenders. That game is crack to me. They give me more maps, more loot, higher level caps and I don't even freaking need it. But I want it because it's always good to me. More over, they are actively producing it. It's not like all of this came with my first download. The team is still together and cranking out whatever. Take all of my money and call me sometime, we can date and you can get to second base.

However, if I paid full price, I deserve everything I paid full price for. It's not extra. By the definition of the term, extra is any superfluous matter that did not come standard with the given object or idea. It is NOT superfluous if they coded it and had it ready to put it on the disc. If it's on the disc, it is part of the final product, no matter how you spin it. If they are able to withhold 15% of the product in terms of getting more money, I should be able to buy it at 85% of the cost and then decide if I want to pay the extra 15% at any point other than purchase.

370999:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

DVS BSTrD:
But Jim! That's the way the developers wanted the game to be! Don't you understand asking them to get rid of On-Disk DLC would impune the artistic integrity of the game! Do you WANT to set gaming back 10 years (to when they knew better)? It's THEIR game! Think how the developers must feel every time you point out something they shouldn't have done! LEAVE THE POOR DEVELOPERS ALONE! LEAVE THEM ALONE!Kony 2012!
-Movie Bob

Sorry, but I will give you a 1/10. Its the best I can do.

You failed to bring up how "entitled" gamers are. This must be done at least 5 times in each sentence to make it a believable parody of Bob.

If you want to make it even more convincing you have to shoehorn in

A) References to Bob's life in high school, try to link RME with jocks.
B) Mention Feminism but have a creepy rant about how totally hot a lesbian romance between Princess Peach and Daisy would be.

Dude you also forgot to include:
c) References to NES characters games or 80's cartoons.
d) The 90's suck (which ties in with point a)
e) Make a pissed of rant before starting your video of something that pissed you last week.

If they had a feature or character planned but budget or time runs out before its finished, I could stand behind having part of the code in the disk and finishing the rest through DLC, but its not part of the code its the whole code in the disk. So the argument that they finished it in certification or they ran out of time is BS of the highest degree.

great episode, I frickin hate on-disc DLC and have no issue with people cracking it, they payed $60 they should have access to all on disc content.

ObsidianJones:
Here's my stance with DLC and it will always be the same.

I love DLC. It extends the life of my game, and if it's worth while, it will always get my cash. See Dungeon Defenders. That game is crack to me. They give me more maps, more loot, higher level caps and I don't even freaking need it. But I want it because it's always good to me. More over, they are actively producing it. It's not like all of this came with my first download. The team is still together and cranking out whatever. Take all of my money and call me sometime, we can date and you can get to second base.

However, if I paid full price, I deserve everything I paid full price for. It's not extra. By the definition of the term, extra is any superfluous matter that did not come standard with the given object or idea. It is NOT superfluous if they coded it and had it ready to put it on the disc. If it's on the disc, it is part of the final product, no matter how you spin it. If they are able to withhold 15% of the product in terms of getting more money, I should be able to buy it at 85% of the cost and then decide if I want to pay the extra 15% at any point other than purchase.

I'm inclined to agree with all of this. Paying extra for on-disc content just freaking SUCKS.

But I love DLC. I need to get some DD DLC. I just got distracted with other games. I don't buy all DLC. I don't even buy most. But I do love DLC. I love options. I love content. I love the idea that I can get more out of my game.

Hey Jim, nice axe! Great episode too Jim, as always. Sadly, the longer this goes on unchecked the more likely it is to succeed. We weren't all brought up on the SNES generation (which sold complete games) or the PSX generation (which sold complete games) or the PS2 generation (which also sold complete games).

I understand the sentiment of your argument, Jim, and I agree with that sentiment (that on-disc DLC is not a good idea). However, I find your particular argument presented here to be a little weak.

We know that both on-disc DLC and day-one DLC create the perception in the buying gamer's mind that they are being ripped-off, because they feel that they are being charged extra for content that should already be included (in the case of day-one DLC) or immediately accessible (for the case of on-disc DLC) as part of the basic game for the $50-60 being paid upfront for the game. Essentially, the extras feel more like goods being withheld for ransom rather than actual extras. This is a perception problem created by the publishers simply because they don't know how to play cards.

The first solution is to let DLC actually BE DLC. Do not include it on the disc. Issues of compatibility is not a good excuse for on-disc DLC. It is the actual job of the game developer to figure out a way to design the game with proper modularity such the DLC does not have to be present for the game to function in a heterogeneous online environment. If this is not possible, then the developer should consider discarding the notion of DLC for that particular game or discarding the online nature of the game. In either of those cases, sell the game as a complete package, with all content accessible at time of purchase.

Additionally, on-disc DLC leaves publishers vulnerable to hackers who can unlock the on-disc DLC without paying for it. Considering how much publishers are screaming about losing money to pirates and hackers, you would think they would have foreseen this issue.

The second solution is to let DLC actually BE an after-market, value-added extra. Specifically what I mean by this is to not juxtapose the release of the DLC with the release of the base game. Actually wait 3-6 months before releasing the DLC. Even if you have the DLC complete and ready to go the day the game is released, don't release it then. Gamers don't need to know or even have any guesses how long you had to work and slave to make the game and the following DLC. Let them believe that you were working your ass off all this time to give them something special; it's all about perception.

Unfortunately, this does break-down some because publishers have been too eager to blow their entire wad every time. Now that gamers know how long the DLC really takes to make and when it's ready, any delay will only cause gamers to be more disappointed if the DLC is in any way lacking in volume. So, publishers have cost themselves a significant time and resource management opportunity that could have gone a long way toward building customer loyalty by better managing customer expectations. Now, that opportunity is lost.

The basic essence of what I'm saying here is that publishers really need to learn to play cards better (you never play your entire hand at once, and always hold onto that one card for "emergencies" or the end-game win). If publishers would have held on to the DLC and doled it out, piecewise, over time, they may have garnered better perceptions from gamers regarding the value and monetary worth of DLC. Also, the delay would have given them time to make further refinements to the DLC, for which they could have made reasonable justification to charge even a little extra. Then, establishing a pattern of quality DLC within a particular time-frame after the game's release could have ensured better gamer loyalty, as gamers hold onto their money to spend on the DLC rather than jumping to the next over-hypered hit release title from the competition, and a potentially more steady revenue for the developer and publisher that would have easily mitigated issues with piracy. Unfortunately, the short-sighted rush to profits by the publishers has resulted in a completely lost opportunity at such prosperity.

Is on-disc DLC justified? Maybe that's phrasing the question wrong. Perhaps the better question is whether on-disc DLC has benefits that significantly outweigh the detriments. Given the lost opportunity for gamer loyalty, the lost opportunity toward increased revenue, and the risk of having the on-disc DLC hacked such gamers can circumvent paying for it, on-disc DLC does not appear to make good business sense. In fact, it seems to put the developer and publisher in a position of working exponentially harder for marginal gains compared to what they could be achieving otherwise.

Just my 2-cents on the matter.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Sorry, but I will give you a 1/10. Its the best I can do.

You failed to bring up how "entitled" gamers are. This must be done at least 5 times in each sentence to make it a believable parody of Bob.

Hey, I enjoyed it and didn't feel it was incomplete. This invalidates your opinions and feelings because I totally support him. Who are you to dictate the enjoyment of others?

Sober Thal:

Phlakes:
I usually agree with you, but I think the video misses the point that people are complaining about the on-disc part, not the DLC itself. I've heard a lot of people say they'd be okay with it if they would be downloading the actual content, and it seems like that's what Cliff was talking about.

To clarify, people want DLC, they just don't like the principle of it being on the disc and that part is the necessary evil, in the case that they want the DLC (which a lot do).

What games are actually being talked about with this? I haven't noticed anything to be upset about.

I needs to be less ignorant on this!

I remember people thinking the ME3 extra character was on the disk, but it wasn't. Sure maybe a line of code had the same name as the character, but that's a far reach to call the DLC just a key to unlock it, eh?

623 mb key? I don't think so.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.370277-Street-Fighter-X-Tekken-Dev-Laments-Hacked-DLC?page=1
12 characters slated to be released as "DLC" are already on the disc.

Would you rather simply not have this content at all? Would Gears of War have been better without those gun skins? Would Mass Effect have been better without those extra characters? Would fighting games be better if you could not get those cool new guys to beat up someone?

You can complain about having to play for this content all you like but if you say that you do not want to pay for it you must simply accept that it can/will not be made otherwise. Taking the newer Fallout games for example the DLC is completely unneeded to truely enjoy the story. Sure the Broken Steel battles continued on from the main quests but the game had a perfectly valid ending. Sure the Courier's journey through the Mohave referenced these oter places but you would not have suffered any by not knowing why someone denied that job before you. You paid for extra content because you enjoyed the game and wanted more, not because they were bastards who held it ransom. If you wont pay for it they wont make it, just like everything else.

I love Jim and we see eye-to-eye on almost every topic, but I cannot fully agree here. I guess there are exceptions to everything.

EDIT:

Azuaron:
Jim, I rarely disagree with you, but I think you don't know enough about development cycles to have a leg to stand on here.

Let's get right to the meat of the situation: would you rather have the content as on disk DLC, day 1 actual download DLC, or would you rather not have the content.

Also this.

Paying to access something thats on the disk you bought. Why would that be wrong?!

Compare this. Selling a game for $75 and selling a game for $60 and then asking for $15 more to turn it into full version instead of crippled one. Which one is a douchebag tactics?

That said, Cliffy B. Biggest douche in the industry. Never buy his games new.

Thank god for Jim. Also his podcast is amazing, check it out if you haven't already. :>

What rampant hypocrisy this is. This very video has 'DLC' hidden away in it which will likely be released in the event of a schedule slip, one which peels back a few layers and reveals that Jim was wearing a bikini all along.
I'm wondering if being in the Publisher's Club provides a discount on that DLC when it comes out.

What's next, Angry Video Game Nerd skin for Yahtzee in Zero Punctuation?!

This episode was made for me... it must be. Thank you Mr.Sterling and keep`em comming.

Sunrider84:
I love Jim and we see eye-to-eye on almost every topic, but I cannot fully agree here. I guess there are exceptions to everything.

EDIT:

Azuaron:
Jim, I rarely disagree with you, but I think you don't know enough about development cycles to have a leg to stand on here.

Let's get right to the meat of the situation: would you rather have the content as on disk DLC, day 1 actual download DLC, or would you rather not have the content.

Also this.

Where`s the fourth option? Pay the game and have all the content right at the start?

Development cycles my ass. The option to give customers and fans a big "Fuck You and gimme all your monies" keeps my wallet closed (on disk-DLC). Like someone already stated you don`t have to know something about production to feel ripped of. It all sounds like a big pile of shit anyway.

The option to extend a games life with later released content is another thing, if it`s done right. GTA4 and RDR where doing it right (at least to me, i didn`t feel ripped of or that they cutted contend away).

Lord_Gremlin:
Compare this. Selling a game for $75 and selling a game for $60 and then asking for $15 more to turn it into full version instead of crippled one. Which one is a douchebag tactics?

That said, Cliffy B. Biggest douche in the industry. Never buy his games new.

I agree with you on that point, anything but gears of war is a rental for me from epic.

DLC can be great, look at Fallout 3 and NV(well except gun runners, I got all the achievements and you want me to pay to get more weapons? I bought the DLC for the story you jack holes!!!!!!!) Oblivion had great DLC as well. ME2(except wepons and Arrival) DAO(darkspawn chronicles was TERRIBLE, worst dlc, witch hunt was bad too). On disk dlc is dumb though.

I'm surprised that Jim didn't rail on the other incredibly fucking stupid thing Cliffy B said in that interview: that once games go fully digital, on-disc DLC will go away.

No it won't you twat, it just won't be called that anymore. If you think you and other scummy devs and publishers will stop locking away content until we pay even more money just because the disc is gone, you're nuts. There will still be locked content, it just won't be called "on disc DLC" because there is no disc. Think I'm wrong? Go download Mass Effect 3 from Origin. You totally won't be able to add Zavik to your game by altering a single line of code because there is no locked-away content in digital games. Oh wait.

But yeah, other than that, I agree completely with the video. On-disc DLC is completely unjustifiable. We're already paying $60 for your game. Give us everything on the disc (or in the download) for that initial purchase. I'll pay extra money for DLC when you do EXTRA WORK TO CREATE BRAND NEW CONTENT. I'm not paying you an extra $20 for an unlock key, fuck off.

Also, on-disc DLC is completely indefensible, and I will now be adding everyone who tried to defend it in this thread to my ignore list. Such people will clearly never have anything intelligent to say ever, and thus I would rather save myself time in the future by never having to read a single one of their posts ever again.

OldDirtyCrusty:
This episode was made for me... it must be. Thank you Mr.Sterling and keep`em comming.

Sunrider84:
I love Jim and we see eye-to-eye on almost every topic, but I cannot fully agree here. I guess there are exceptions to everything.

EDIT:

Azuaron:
Jim, I rarely disagree with you, but I think you don't know enough about development cycles to have a leg to stand on here.

Let's get right to the meat of the situation: would you rather have the content as on disk DLC, day 1 actual download DLC, or would you rather not have the content.

Also this.

Where`s the fourth option? Pay the game and have all the content right at the start?

Development cycles my ass. The option to give customers and fans a big "Fuck You and gimme all your monies" keeps my wallet closed (on disk-DLC). Like someone already stated you don`t have to know something about production to feel ripped of. It all sounds like a big pile of shit anyway.

The option to extend a games life with later released content is another thing, if it`s done right. GTA4 and RDR where doing it right (at least to me, i didn`t feel ripped of or that they cutted contend away).

If you think "fuck you and gimme all your monies" is all that is on the mind of the people who put work into DLC, I have nothing to add to this discussion.

Disagree sorta. There's plenty of justification for having some (not all - mainly a technical issue) of the DLC on disc.

The main issue here is separating "additional content" from "actual content that we told the publisher was additional content so that they would get off our backs about having additional content". It is a judgment call that is not easy to make sometimes, but the main reason we have it is because a few developers buckled into those demands (or hell, even CAME UP WITH THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE for all we know) for perhaps favor or additional funding, and then after seeing the results, abuse their position of power to pressure the developers because they feel like they have to jump on the trend to either stay in business or get more money.

"Company X is doing this. Why aren't you doing this? Perhaps if we hired another group, they would do what needs to be done to compete, and we wouldn't need you anymore, or we'll cancel your project and hand your funding to our other projects who are all complying with these requirements (example: capcom's entire corporate philosophy). Well? It is your decision. :)"

Sunrider84:
...

If you think "fuck you and gimme all your monies" is all that is on the mind of the people who put work into DLC, I have nothing to add to this discussion.[/quote]

This goes for "on DISK-DLC" which seems like a big slap into the face of paying customers and fans who support the game. This post wasn`t meant to offend you (sorry if i have) but on disk justification just makes me jump and i can`t get rid of this cloudy red vision. I just can`t understand people who suppport this (at least not from the paying end of the line).

I have always the choice to not buy games with locked content or heavy DLC support but i really hate the thougt that this whole on disk thing might give developers/publishers i like funny ideas for their next games.

OldDirtyCrusty:

This goes for "on DISK-DLC" which seems like a big slap into the face of paying customers and fans who support the game. This post wasn`t meant to offend you (sorry if i have) but on disk justification just makes me jump and i can`t get rid of this cloudy red vision. I just can`t understand people who suppport this (at least not from the paying end of the line).

I have always the choice to not buy games with locked content or heavy DLC support but i really hate the thougt that this whole on disk thing might give developers/publishers i like funny ideas for their next games.

Nah, I wasn't offended. I just think people are overreacting.
I know a few people with download limits who are happy when the DLC is already on the disc. Not picking sides here, just saying.

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