Jimquisition: The Positive Side to Punching Nuns

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People who can only focus on social issues or always have to bring them up are not worthy of gaming, which is why I like trailers such as these to shoo them away.

370999:

Grey Day for Elcia:

I consider myself somewhat female and the trailer is fucking awesome, lol. It'd be just as awesome if it was a lone girl against a group of men in sexy outfits.

For whatever my opinion is worth.

I'm not suggesting all girls are going to be against it automatically or that it's wrong to find it cool. I really like 300 and a lot of people view that as a modern fascist film.

Just that I don't think opposition to it should be brushed off. As Jim said at the very least it can help make people more aware to other people's feelings.

Mmm. I don't think anything should be brushed off (well, I lie; I won't listen to anyone argue for paedophilia) I was just sharing my perspective. I totally agree with you and Jim (for the first time ever) on this issue.

But I'm not really caring enough of it all to get that involved. I like the trailer, I think it's sexy and cool. I'd probably talk to someone about it if they brought it up, but I'll just let the wider community talk it out.

captcha: off the record

I am totally not recording this. Please speak louder and into my bow-tie.

Grey Day for Elcia:

370999:

Grey Day for Elcia:

I consider myself somewhat female and the trailer is fucking awesome, lol. It'd be just as awesome if it was a lone girl against a group of men in sexy outfits.

For whatever my opinion is worth.

I'm not suggesting all girls are going to be against it automatically or that it's wrong to find it cool. I really like 300 and a lot of people view that as a modern fascist film.

Just that I don't think opposition to it should be brushed off. As Jim said at the very least it can help make people more aware to other people's feelings.

Mmm. I don't think anything should be brushed off (well, I lie; I won't listen to anyone argue for paedophilia) I was just sharing my perspective. I totally agree with you and Jim (for the first time ever) on this issue.

But I'm not really caring enough of it all to get that involved. I like the trailer, I think it's sexy and cool. I'd probably talk to someone about it if they brought it up, but I'll just let the wider community talk it out.

captcha: off the record

I am totally not recording this. Please speak louder and into my bow-tie.

And I think that is a fair position to take. I have no real desire to buy the game so my opinion doesn't really matter that much.

Just that I don't think brushing it off is right :)

My problem with the trailer is that their latex outfit doesn't make sense in the series. Hitman games always had sexuality but this is just simple fan service. It's just out of place for the games. My biggest problem with the trailer is the shooting fest. Hitman games are about killing some stealthy and not just agent47 shooting everything that moves. I hope it's just the trailer and that the actual game won't be like that.

Anyway, the media has always done this. Men and women, we're always told how we should be. There is always a standard type. Things that society like, or at least the majority might enjoy. If the things that is generally considered how we should be change, then the depiction of men and women will change as well.
As an example, in western games men are often portrayed as gritty, bulky and badass. Those are the type of men that is considered to be well like by the target audience, so they use them often.
In Japanese games, the guys are often boys which look young and feminine and pale. There is a different target audience in Japan, different type of men are considered to be good characters, so they use them often.

Companies want to make money and they want the lowest risk possible. That means, if they have something that works, they stick to it. These depictions of men and women work for now, so they always use them. If suddenly they sell much less with these types, they'll switch to something else that works but there will always be specific types of men and women which will be used most.
Bear in mind that this is just a generalization. It's just how the majority of companies act and what the majority of the target audience likes.

What I'm hoping is that as games become more popular and the companies will have a more diverse target audience, the games will also be more diverse.
Personally, I don't have that much of a problem with the depiction of the genders in that trailer, it's just that the same type is used so much. I don't mind it when there are sexy women and badass men beating each other up as long as there are enough games where the genders are depicted differently but at the moment that's not the case. I like playing games like Saints Row and Gears of War, as long as there are games like Half-Life and Zelda.
I just want more diversity

I'm not sure I quite get it. Far as I can tell the video isn't all that bad.

Hitman in a dive of a hotel patching himself up after a hit with a hint that his tried to remove the tatoo on the back of his head.

Nuns walk up to said dive from a school bus somethings not quite right because instead of sensible shoes that we would expect from a traditional nun we get a close up of high heels so we know these arn't normal nuns then they start pulling automatic weapons and evan a rocket launcher from under the habits and remove the habits. The only unclear thing is really are these women real nuns or is that just their cover. Yes the outfits under the habits are fairly revealing but really it's not like they are half naked or anything though I must admit high heels wouldn't be my foot wear of choice if I was going into a fight. Not sure how easy it is to fight in a tight mini skirt either but well eye candy is eye candy and it does appeal to a certain demographic.

The fight scene where the protaganist takes out a couple from behind but the rest arn't exctly a cake walk and get in a couple of good shots. I guess this is the part where the trailer takes it's cues from the movie rather than the previous games as (this maybe just me being a crap gamer) the first couple of games it was more about getting into a position without being detected then completing the hit and getting out without getting into a firefight which you generaly lost to superior numbers. This is what gets fans of the franchise worried that the game is moving away from the sneak around kill as little as possible gameplay and getting more into go to this room kill everyone in it move to next area.

End of the fight scene and we see the protaganist paying a semblance of respect to defeated enemies by closing the dead womans eyes I guess as part of the looting ritual as the next shot is a trunk full of weapons some of them similar to what the women were just using against him. Trunk lid shuts and car drives off the end.

All in all kind of generic trailer really except the enemies arn't Nazis or terrorists they are women who are portrayed as a fairly competent hit squad which I guess is the problem.

370999:

Xan Krieger:

lead sharp:
ok I totally get the crux of the video, that's not my point, but I honestly don't see the problem with the Hitman trailer?

Is it me?

I also don't see the problem, I rather enjoyed it actually.

Bear in mind I'm on the fence with it but the problem a lot o people have is

Those ladies are wearing grossly impratical outfits, the type of clothes you would wear in a bedroom. They are then being whupped, and the way it is shot is almost lovingly. It feels to some people that it is meant to be violent erotica, women get physically dominated by the player surrogate.

Great video Jim. Diversity will make things more interestin and compelling.

I'll be honest, my response to that I can't say here because some might find it disturbing so I'm gonna PM it instead.

I love jim man lives in mississippi like myself.:) Also I didnt know my mom would hate dead space 2!!! HELLS YEAH!!! Ill go buy that today after I sneak some porn from their bedroom.roflmao

370999:

Iron Lightning:

370999:

Bear in mind I'm on the fence with it but the problem a lot o people have is

Those ladies are wearing grossly impratical outfits, the type of clothes you would wear in a bedroom. They are then being whupped, and the way it is shot is almost lovingly. It feels to some people that it is meant to be violent erotica, women get physically dominated by the player surrogate.

Great video Jim. Diversity will make things more interestin and compelling.

So, people are angry at this trailer because it's violent erotica.

Just another example of the prudishness gamers feel they need to adopt so as to gain more mainstream acceptance.

I dunno, if I was a girl I might feel this is another thing that is excluding me from something I enjoy.

I'm not saying either you or they are wrong or right but I don't think it's just hollow prudishness that motivates opposition to it.

Gamers (at least those outside of Japan) have shown themselves time and time again to be massive prudes. That's why no stores have stalked porno games in America since the Atari.

Nine times out of ten when an artistic controversy arises regarding videogames it's a sexual controversy.

Meh, I was more angry at this video that it in no way portrayed the way Hitman games were played. It seems foolish to me to get this heavy action-focused trailer for a game that's based almost solely around stealth. I really didn't care too much about the objectified women, mostly due to the fact that battle lingerie nuns are too fucking silly to use as an argument.

I do not see any reason for controversy appearance. One pro assassin kills 7 less pro. Those seven are dressed as nuns with guns. What's the problem? Guys, you dig controversies from such minor issues that I begin to fear for modern society. Because it is getting more and more idiotic.

On the one hand: I can see the cause for upset. Most of the elements are there: sexualized characters, violence against same, misuse of religious imagery, gore, etc. It's basically a recipe for "how to upset people who are inclined to get upset about things that happen to fictional characters." The only thing it's missing is someone underage catching a bullet, too; if they'd had a twelve year old mini-nun holding the rocket launcher it would've been the perfect storm.

On the other hand: considering the above, it seems pretty well-made as cinematic game trailers go. The fight isn't completely one-sided (as is so often the case, with the pretty female puppets just there to get slapped down as so much fodder); the "nuns" lose, yes, but they certainly gave Hitman a few memorable shots on the way out. That over-the-arm disarming kick? Ow. So I don't see much space in there for a misogynistic angle - the gals aren't presented as incompetent* compared with their male opponent, he's just better. I dunno. It's obviously exploitative in nature as there is literally no other reason to have the nuns dressed that way for combat, and there is a definitive logic-fail in their tactical approach, but it doesn't seem like pure cheesecake. For all the fanservice approach to the visuals, it's a legitimately well-executed action scene.

I'd say the complaints are worth noting, but not "correct" in the sense that the trailer should be pulled.

*Okay, possible exception for the rocket-launching black nun. The others are all either a) killed by surprise before they can respond or b) outmatched in a straight fight where they perform reasonably well. That one exception contributes her rocket to the fight and...that's it. She wastes time posing over Hitman when he fell down instead of just freaking shooting him and pays for it, then kills one of her fellow nuns while she's being used as a shield and proceeds to drop her big gun (she really managed to empty the clip in just two bursts?) in favor of a slow-to-draw-while-lying-down pistol without even trying to present a moving target. She seems pretty terrible all around compared to the others.

Iron Lightning:

Gamers (at least those outside of Japan) have shown themselves time and time again to be massive prudes. That's why no stores have stalked porno games in America since the Atari.

In all fairness, I think that's just the store owners showing themselves to be prudes (WalMart as the leading example that won't even stock some games that others do, for 'objectionable content'). That's not to say that you may not be right, in general, but your conclusion doesn't really follow from your premise.

freaper:

Disclaimer:...you know what? I'm pretty sure everyone's mature enough not to assume I'm pro domestic violence.

Wow. You must be new here. ;)

Assuming maturity from an internet forum -- a gaming forum, no less -- is like assuming honesty from a closed session of Congress.

OT: The only thing I didn't like a about it -- not that I find it controversial, just personally distasteful. Opinions being subjective and all -- is the blood/gore. Just not my bag.

Otherwise, it would have totally been my kind of camp.

DVS BSTrD:
Jim's half-assed is still more assed than mine!
I don't mind scantily clad women in games, but you don't buy a Hitman game to play Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat with guns.

lead sharp:
ok I totally get the crux of the video, that's not my point, but I honestly don't see the problem with the Hitman trailer?

Is it me?

Ever played a Hitman game?

I played every Hitman game and I don't have a problem with the trailer. Hitman was always full of weird shit like that. Remember Contracts and Blood Money? Those games had some sick stuff. Way worse than sexy assassin nuns.

And it's just a CGI trailer. You're not supposed to draw any conclusions about the gameplay from it.

Oh please, men are as overly sexualized as women. But as men are infact men, they lack the apparatus that women have that make them seem over sexual. I.e Tits, ass, curvy body.

Men are almost always good looking, grizzled badasses, muscle bound, commonly topless, inch perfect characters that always get the girl, and always save the day. If people are getting some sort of trauma from female characters showing their cleavage too often, you clearly don't look at the clearly devastating and crippling mental disorders that the male character brings...

In conclusion, they are sexualized. Both of them. But why care? They pretty much cancel each other out.

Kay. Quick pro tip for combat: if somebody's trying to kill you, you have the right to kill them if there's no escape route. It doesn't matter if they're wearing sexy nun outfits, bikinis, mankinis, fursuits, a styrofoam burger mascot costume, a sombrero and nothing else, etc. They were trying to kill you.

Political correctness does not exist to promote tolerance. It exists so that people can avoid either getting offended by or even having to think about issues that bother them. That in no way helps people learn important lessons about sex and gender roles. Also, it's a lot harder to fight when you have an erection. Those women should be applauded for using a little outside-the-box thinking in their combat tactics.

lead sharp:
ok I totally get the crux of the video, that's not my point, but I honestly don't see the problem with the Hitman trailer?

Is it me?

Well, there's the fact that a supposedly highly trained cadre of nuns didn't detail anyone to watch their backs and instead stood around watching the pretty explosion like spectators at Boomershoot.

I havn't played the Hitman games but im definatly interested in the new game. I saw a run through of the first level and thought it looked interesting, not to mention I hear good things about the older ones all the time.

The trailer on the other hand seemed kind of dumb. If it was something like Saints Row then *shrug* thats what happens in Saints Row but I thought Hitman was supposed to be more serious with abit of dark comedy thrown in every now and then. This just struck me as stupid, I don't mind the violence against women (their assassins, comes with the job id suspect), self defence and all that. The fetish gear I do have abit of a problem with due to it being completly pointless, not because their actually wearing it.

Basically what Jim said...

I was waiting for the nuns to be a mere distraction and someone to headshot the bald guy from hundreds of yards away because he was too focused on taking down the distraction-nuns. I am disappointed.

Just throwing in my two cents on T&A in advertising.

I don't get why ANYTHING uses T&A in advertising anymore. We live in an age where high sexuality is a common, mostly-accepted thing. Honest-to-god pornography is EASILY obtainable. In fact, it's PERVASIVE. The Internet, as everyone knows, is mostly porn.

Titillation is pointless when we can get the real thing without any extra effort. If I wanted boobs, I'd go look up boobs. And the boobs I look up wouldn't even be covered. Hell, (at the risk of being yelled at for objectifying women) if I put in a bit of effort, I could get the real thing.

In an age where anyone who WANTS porn or sex can have it and anyone who DON'T is disgusted by it, when we are polarized to the point where those who would have wanted T&A are bored by it, and those who don't want it are willing to boycott games because of it, WHY WOULD ANYONE MARKET A GAME WITH T&A??

I didn't know the controversy was because of the supposed sexism. I thought it was because the trailer didn't fit the franchise, it was too silly for a serious game, and the nuns were terrible at doing their jobs.
I don't find fighting games where you can punch women to be necessarily sexist, since the ladies can fight back and the nuns in the trailer at least fought back.(terribly, but they at least try to)
Still I find characters like Ivy and the nuns as having ridiculous outfits, I don't think the creators are being sexist, instead they are pandering to the teenage audience, looking more immature than sexist.

Iron Lightning:

370999:

Bear in mind I'm on the fence with it but the problem a lot o people have is

Those ladies are wearing grossly impratical outfits, the type of clothes you would wear in a bedroom. They are then being whupped, and the way it is shot is almost lovingly. It feels to some people that it is meant to be violent erotica, women get physically dominated by the player surrogate.

Great video Jim. Diversity will make things more interestin and compelling.

So, people are angry at this trailer because it's violent erotica.

Just another example of the prudishness gamers feel they need to adopt so as to gain more mainstream acceptance.

It's not really prudishness that's the problem. It's that violent erotica against women in particular, not men, is a norm in some parts of the media and it both can breed a sense that this thing of men should be normal and all women should be sexualized and brutalized should be a norm for this and then it can make women who've had to deal with men assaulting them sexually very uncomfortable or outright trigger a PTSD attack for some depending on the context.

If this type of erotica was just the character's issue to deal with I don't think as many people would be upset, but since it's a meta erotica and it's being presented in such a way that it implies the player should enjoy this when they might not it's probably more disturbing to most people than it would be otherwise.

For example James Sunderland had some pretty interesting issues with his sexuality represented in the monsters you dealt with in Silent Hill 2 and pretty much no one thinks that's a bad thing, but the monsters were things that represented James' psyche and were things he was expected to like and dislike. You, the player, were never expected to have a meta form of sexuality forced on you and have it be expected for you to accept it as either normal or for you to want it like this trailer seems to be doing.

To put it in simpler terms erotica in video games isn't the problem, expecting the player to be the one with this particular set of erotic fantasies is though especially when the sexualized violence is only happening against women. If it were happening against men too it might be more acceptable, but it's placing one group in a very different position over the others and since that's inherently unequal people will have problems with that too.

More on topic this video was great and I'm happy this kind of discussion is happening more and more.

Edit: I also feel like I should add that I don't think it's realistic to mind violence against women characters when they're being violent, and I actually appreciate women being treated the same as men in this area in media in particular, but they should still be wearing outfits that make sense for them to wear at the time. Sexy stuff for attempted seduction murders would make sense, but there really isn't a need for the women here to look like anything but normal nuns and the normal outfits would be much better to fight in anyway. If you want silliness then apply it to the guys too, come on I'm sure someone would love to run around as a male character in nothing but pink lacy undies.

Palademon:

Too bad for Hitman fans who find it too out of place though.

I don't get it, honestly. If Max Payne 3 looks like its set in the Streets of Rio De Janiero, away from its Noirish roots, why can't Hitman feel like an action movie for one game? They did make a movie that was technically the same thing, was it not?

OT: I think this whole conflict is interesting, but it feels to me, incredibly silly. I think women being hit in the face and whatnot is considerably different to women being abused. If Agent 47 was torturing one of these ladies akin to how Hugo Strange did in his Arkham City trailer, I'd be a little more uncomfortable and this argument would be decided for me a little better.

However, if these women can wield guns, knives and amazing fighting abilities, I don't see how they should be treated any differently towards being taken apart one by one by an assassin.

If the whole religious aspect (Nun outfits) bothers people, Take a good solid look at the films of the 1970s, where exploitation films did much worse with nuns and women seperately than this does. This is pretty tame (which is to say, extremely violent and nose-shatteringly brutal) compared to an entire decade of film.

Altogether, this is a conflict that is silly to be having only because I've seen worse to women in movies from decades before my time, and I can't see why a two minute trailer provokes this much vitriol from anybody.

Well, considering that the next step from "controversy" is usually tiptoeing. or even outright censorship, I really don't think it'll add much to gaming overall.

If you dislike the Hitman trailer, simply don't watch it, and don't buy the product it advertises. But to demand that others who might like it are denied availability of it is the exact opposite of "tolerance". Funnily enough, "live and let live" includes actually letting other people watch/play stuff that offends you to no end.

Robert Ewing:
Oh please, men are as overly sexualized as women.

I'm not interested into going into a massive back-and-forth, so I'll just agree to disagree with you on that point.

"Thank G... Already did that bit..." Classic comedy! :D

If enough people are willing to lay down their sixty dollars for the opportunity to guide a virtual avatar through the process of murdering a group of female assassins dressed up in Halloween BDSM-Nun habits then the 'discussion' as Jim puts it is ultimately a waste of time. As long as someone is willing to publish games like this latest iteration of Hitman to a market that is willing to buy them, all it really boils down to is that there are people who won't buy the game are complaining that there are still people out there who will buy the game.

Capitcha - klatu berada nikto

What's the worst thing that could happen?

My main gripe with the video is that the women seem very out of place. I mean, latex and RPGs? Did they get lost on the way to the Bayonetta universe? I have no problems with 47 fighting off female assassins, but Hitman has always been about patience and stealth, they should have made the trailer more of a cat-and-mouse type thing through some dark shadowy mansion or something.

Imperator_DK:
Well, considering that the next step from "controversy" is usually tiptoeing. or even outright censorship, I really don't think it'll add much to gaming overall.

If you dislike the Hitman trailer, simply don't watch it, and don't buy the product it advertises. But to demand that others who might like it are denied availability of it is the exact opposite of "tolerance". Funnily enough, "live and let live" includes actually letting other people watch/play stuff that offends you to no end.

Nobody is saying that the game should be banned or that the people who liked it are wife beater misogynists. You are making this argument up, enjoy the game and the trailer if you like it. People should speak about their displeasure for the trailer. I, for example, think its incredibly idiotic.

Grey Day for Elcia:
The nuns are hot and the violence is sexy.

I approve of the trailer.

image

i second this!

i think the trailer is awesome :D and cant wait for another hitman installment ^^

There is sexism, but its not in that trailer. One man fights a group of highly trained, heavily armed and very capable hit woman. Yeah they are dressing in a certain way but no different to woman in music videos, or even female singers. Men always see woman as the fairer sex, not as strong and need protecting when this is not the case. This is something we men are told since birth, you cant hit girls etc etc Yes there may be issues with clothing, especially with beat em ups, but i think people take issue with a man beating woman than the fact that these woman are sexualised killing machines out looking for the Hitman in the first place.

freaper:
Concerning the "violence against women" side of this debate; how long have women been present in the (American) army now? I can't for the life of me remember if I've ever seen a women portrayed as a regular (not important for the plot) soldier in either MW2, BF3 (only modern titles of CoD and BF I've played) or any other FPS. If you argue against violence towards women in war, stealth, whatever games, you should re-evaluate your standpoint, and simply argue against violence in general. Seeing as how that's never going to happen, how about giving both sexes (and all the genders) a fair trial?

Disclaimer:...you know what? I'm pretty sure everyone's mature enough not to assume I'm pro domestic violence.

I know there have been regular female soldiers in most of the Halo games and the extended universe.

370999:

Xan Krieger:

lead sharp:
ok I totally get the crux of the video, that's not my point, but I honestly don't see the problem with the Hitman trailer?

Is it me?

I also don't see the problem, I rather enjoyed it actually.

Bear in mind I'm on the fence with it but the problem a lot o people have is

Those ladies are wearing grossly impratical outfits, the type of clothes you would wear in a bedroom. They are then being whupped, and the way it is shot is almost lovingly. It feels to some people that it is meant to be violent erotica, women get physically dominated by the player surrogate.

And if so, so what. I've seen more violent porn on this very website. (Sonic getting inflated and blowing up is more violent than that trailer, alright? hehe)

OT: Who are you, and what did you do with Jim?

Phasmal:

Robert Ewing:
Oh please, men are as overly sexualized as women.

I'm not interested into going into a massive back-and-forth, so I'll just agree to disagree with you on that point.

I also have to disagree, women like different types of men, saying they like only cute bishies ignores that Fabio or Thor are (or were) popular with women (in part) due to their muscular physique. Other women find nerdy guys like Stephen Merchant to be very attractive.

Xan Krieger:

lead sharp:
ok I totally get the crux of the video, that's not my point, but I honestly don't see the problem with the Hitman trailer?

Is it me?

I also don't see the problem, I rather enjoyed it actually.

Yeah, I don't get it either.

I mean, I understand the arguments people are making, but it seems to me that those people are connecting violence with sex on their own. The violence in question is totally neutral. (Which makes, Agent 47 is a seasoned killer, there's no reason for him to be distracted by sex appeal)

They ARE intended to be sexy, but that clearly isn't the reason he's killing them, and it seems to have no real purpose; you could replace them with priests for the exact same effect.

Sex and violence are both in this trailer but they're totally divorced from each other. The sex is there to be sexy, the violence is there to be cool (And before anyone brings up stylized violence, the game is called Hitman, that's kind of the whole point)

Creatural:

Iron Lightning:

370999:

Bear in mind I'm on the fence with it but the problem a lot o people have is

Those ladies are wearing grossly impratical outfits, the type of clothes you would wear in a bedroom. They are then being whupped, and the way it is shot is almost lovingly. It feels to some people that it is meant to be violent erotica, women get physically dominated by the player surrogate.

Great video Jim. Diversity will make things more interestin and compelling.

So, people are angry at this trailer because it's violent erotica.

Just another example of the prudishness gamers feel they need to adopt so as to gain more mainstream acceptance.

It's not really prudishness that's the problem. It's that violent erotica against women in particular, not men, is a norm in some parts of the media and it both can breed a sense that this thing of men should be normal and all women should be sexualized and brutalized should be a norm for this and then it can make women who've had to deal with men assaulting them sexually very uncomfortable or outright trigger a PTSD attack for some depending on the context.

Wait a minute, where exactly is this the norm? I've experienced quite a lot of media and I haven't come across something that could be called violent erotica in anything mainstream and popular. Hell, even on most general-interest porn sites violent stuff comprises a minority of content. This trailer wouldn't be shocking to people if it was an everyday thing.

Creatural:
To put it in simpler terms erotica in video games isn't the problem, expecting the player to be the one with this particular set of erotic fantasies is though especially when the sexualized violence is only happening against women. If it were happening against men too it might be more acceptable, but it's placing one group in a very different position over the others and since that's inherently unequal people will have problems with that too.

It seems to me that erotica in videogames is very much of a problem for people. That's why Illusion refuses to sell outside Japan. That's why damn-near every artistic controversy that happens in videogames has something to do with sexuality.

Of course anything that extolls a particular set of erotic fantasies will expect the audience to share those same fantasies. If the audience didn't share them then the audience wouldn't be watching.

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