The Big Picture: Tropes vs. MovieBob

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Matt_LRR:
Ultra snip

For now, I'm just gonna run with sweet zombie jesus on this one until I actually get a chance to read all of your comments. Cheers Matt.

Tenmar:
Wow panda was right, you guys are just going to ignore my previous posts and just going to assume everything to the extreme instead of the actual middle ground most people are actually on about this whole mess.

Dude, chill. You're talking about this woman as if her videos are a threat. What interpretation am I supposed to make?

Bmagada:
Keep on trolling sad troll, keep on trolling...

I wasn't trolling you. And frankly I'm a little disappointed that it came to this.

Look, if I made some faulty arguments, I apologize. But that's not a reason to be this bloody antagonistic. I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just trying to say that you're holding people to unfair standards.

Now to make things really clear, it's not the content of this woman's videos I'm interested in debating. I've seen a few of them and found it underwhelming. She over-extends points and gets lost in the rhetoric. I'm open to the idea that with time and a larger audience and thus greater scrutiny she can improve. In fact, that would be great. If people want to debate the merits of her videos, they're free to do so. It's not a conversation I'm really interested in having because I don't care enough one way or the other.

What bothers me about this debate is threefold.

1. The reaction and the way some people seem to be apologists for it. Some people claim to have proof that she spammed 4chan. I haven't seen it yet myself, but assuming it is true... how does this let 4chan off the hook? How does this let the people who threw their lot in with 4chan off the hook? This is a problem.

2. People who don't know anything about feminism are using this as a chance to shoot their mouths off about feminism. People who have done the research are both supportive of and opposed to Sarkeesian. It's kind of a mixed bag. But there are a lot of people who are taking this opportunity to get royally pissed off over nothing. It's impossible to have a decent conversation amidst a crowd of howling, uneducated chimps.

3. Part of the anger seems to be from people who are just plain upset that a project they didn't like got funded. But that's part and parcel with crowd funding. Sometimes shit you don't like is going to get funded because people wanted it.

I've said this before in the thread, but I don't believe it's a waste to want a more visible feminist presence in the discourse about gaming. The kind of games that show more diverse female characters aren't going to get made unless the publishers are convinced there's a market for this stuff. And the best way to do that is to establish a strong presence of consumers who are visibly asking for it.

I myself am trying to get a team together to make some projects that showcase issues important to myself. But I've actually had training in different media. This is something within my ability because I have a relevant skillset. Not everyone does, and I encourage them to find alternative ways to help. I thought you were a bit too hasty to condemn those alternatives as inadequate or cheap cop-outs. If I'm wrong, great.

So... can we try this again?

Tenmar:

Matt_LRR:
Ultra snip

For now, I'm just gonna run with sweet zombie jesus on this one until I actually get a chance to read all of your comments. Cheers Matt.

That's cool. And if I sound like I'm being combative, I really don't mean to. You're a cool enough guy, I just think you're in the wrong here.

-m

DrVornoff:

Dude, chill. You're talking about this woman as if her videos are a threat. What interpretation am I supposed to make?

I don't know you could be a bit more amiable and actually ask me a question instead or read some of my previous posts that actually ask for calm and clarity instead of taking what was literally my worst post in this thread that was a summary of a previous post that actually offered a more in-depth explanation.

To which I should add that I asked the person who quoted me to read the previous posts FOUR times. Seriously is it that easy to overlook a post that was one page back and just jump on the one that had a less descriptive statement yet was surrounded by "please read the more descriptive post"?

Personally from the way you have been interacting with other forum members I should be the one saying "chill" cause instead of actually gaining an understanding it's just been dissent after dissent trying to prove that your opinion is the only one that is correct. You've been so entrenched in your own belief that you can't let anyone open up and share their opinion without being to be quite frank, negative. Kinda hard to actually not talk to you in without being confrontational cause you spread that negativity from the other comments you are reading.

I mean people aren't disagreeing with you when they share their own personal opinion and doesn't mean you have to comment on what everyone says. If anything it is the topics you don't have to respond to due to being so specific that you should be able to gain an understanding from the other side.

Heck I haven't even insulted this youtuber or anything and I honestly do believe that what she believes is right. But I'm not gonna come in this topic and say that she and everyone that supports her is incorrect. I came in this room to simply say I disagree and explain as specifically as possible why I disagree from my experience with watching her videos.

Which means that chances are people are often going to disagree with me and that's fine. Agree to disagree. I may not think what she is doing the most noble of causes nor do I think she's some person who is a mastermind trying a get rich quick scheme. But I am certainly open to criticize her for the work she has published and the attitude she takes in said work.

I mean honestly, if you really ask a person to chill that will spark a negative reaction back cause it tries to control the person and puts you in a position of authority above the person you are telling to chill. Considering how we should view each other as equals and adults that isn't how you should be handling a situation. Heck not even police officers do that unless it is a last resort where they are required to take physical action.

That's how I feel about this whole mess.

TAdamson:
MASSIVE SNIPPAGE

I'm not offended, it's an inherent risk with devil advocate arguments or turning peoples logic against them, the last person to read it might not know the context. :p

no worries though. :)

Tenmar:
Personally from the way you have been interacting with other forum members I should be the one saying "chill" cause instead of actually gaining an understanding it's just been dissent after dissent trying to prove that your opinion is the only one that is correct. You've been so entrenched in your own belief that you can't let anyone open up and share their opinion without being to be quite frank, negative. Kinda hard to actually not talk to you in without being confrontational cause you spread that negativity from the other comments you are reading.

If I across as such I apologize. This argument has gone on too long, it's getting hard to keep track of who said what, and some of the really stupid ideas getting bandied about have me on the verge of another one of my regrettable Jekyll and Hyde moments.

So let's take it from the top. In one paragraph, what is your concern?

Matt_LRR:

That's cool. And if I sound like I'm being combative, I really don't mean to. You're a cool enough guy, I just think you're in the wrong here.

-m

Yeah I was JUST about to say something about that. But honestly I don't think that on A LOT of this stuff I am going to say that we were both wrong and we were both right. Yeah it's gonna be one of those messy posts.

But I just have a good feeling that most of the stuff I'm going to try and say is more or less agree to disagree.

I do have to say that that a good deal of the quotes of me and I hope you will agree with me on this are more or less well, off topic and actually doesn't actually help us create a conversation on what the main issue is. I mean are we really gonna discuss the following?

I should also note here quickly that I notice you are quoting the brief description of the previous post I made. I tried to make it shorter for the person who quoted me and I find that it is not exactly doing such justice. Think I should delete it? But to the list!

-Audio and video equipment
-Are advertisements really the causation or spark that causes misogyny?
-The philosophical discussion of "gamer" and "gaming community" and representation(I do reflect now that this was an off topic created by myself but that was more of a point to share my feelings and personal discomfort when I see people use the word "gamer" or "gaming community". It was not an attempt to discredit her in any way shape or form.
-Potential legal battles that could affect the video game industry
-Positive vs negative networking and advertising

I feel that the main issue is to actually get more women who actually have the skills and desire to work in the video game industry to actually prove themselves in the video game industry. I gotta be honest, to me I really don't see much a solution cause the first step is actually finding those people both men and women who want to work in the video game industry and actually get them to start early and understand what they need to learn and take those skills and apply them building a portfolio. It's not a solution where you can just throw money at it or hire people who aren't qualified. But chances are by typing this I'm making even MORE of a mess. But I know there are good ways to find the right solution that if more women wanted to get involved in the video game industry they can.

Hell with all the volunteering, classes and still not having a job for over two years has got me quite depressed. So apologies for hopefully also not sounding combative and thank you very much for making this post before I made mine.

DrVornoff:

If I across as such I apologize. This argument has gone on too long, it's getting hard to keep track of who said what, and some of the really stupid ideas getting bandied about have me on the verge of another one of my regrettable Jekyll and Hyde moments.

So let's take it from the top. In one paragraph, what is your concern?

Not now my good man I have another post to respond to first and that is Matt. Christ this is going to be a long night for me :P.

What's say we scrap referring to the last post at all, along with everything on your list, and just call it even.

Because I think this paragraph:

Tenmar:

I feel that the main issue is to actually get more women who actually have the skills and desire to work in the video game industry to actually prove themselves in the video game industry. I gotta be honest, to me I really don't see much a solution cause the first step is actually finding those people both men and women who want to work in the video game industry and actually get them to start early and understand what they need to learn and take those skills and apply them building a portfolio. It's not a solution where you can just throw money at it or hire people who aren't qualified. But chances are by typing this I'm making even MORE of a mess. But I know there are good ways to find the right solution that if more women wanted to get involved in the video game industry they can.

is way more interesting to discuss.

Surely you see that this is a vicious cycle, right? The games industry is a boys club, the boy's club alienates women, fewer women become interested in games, fewer women enter the industry, and the industry remains a boy's club.

If this is the case, then isn't it somewhat self evident that speaking out about the ways that the games industry serves to alienate women, and doing so with an eye to making the industry's products more inclusive and diverse, will help to generate more interest in the industry among women, and more women subsequently entering the industry?

If nothing else, generating awareness of these issues helps to make the women who are interested in gaming but are uncomfortable with the way the industry represents them feel like they are supported and more welcome among those who share their interest?

-m

Matt_LRR:

You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

Just saying.

She couldn't afford "top of the line" equipment even WITH the $200,000 she's raised. And that "soundproof room" is almost certainly a wall in her house. LRR produces five videos a week professionally, and we have a dinky little office space and some mid-grade equipment. WE don't even have a soundproof room, and the technical quality of her production looks to mirror the the sort of equipment we were using years ago.

I think this one stems definitely comes from perspective on what is high end. But I know one way we both can find out the real truth here. We should ask her. Is that room in the picture she posted on her site actually soundproofed? What kind of camera and lighting does she have?

I mean I look at that picture(and I will admit right now that I do NOT know how to link pictures and only the picture on these forums so apologies)

image

I look at that picture and see pure white lights, what seems to honestly be soft sound foam, a good deal of physical space and a powerful enough camera that does 720P. But once again I'm sure both of us will concede that honestly we should just ask her.

But the reason I say it seems like she has top of the line and you say she doesn't definitely stems from perception. I will admit my mindset did stem from when I think of your average youtuber that is making an honest effort to produce quality videos to which she does succeed at. When I think of all the youtubers from the ones I just can't stand to the ones I like the quality for most simply vary when it comes to live recordings. That is why I mentioned willofDC in that brief description. But I'm trying to be pragmatic here when I say top of the line. Cause I don't think either of us here are expecting James Cameron full blown 3D camcorders. I think of the pragmatic for top of the line to be like James Rolfe(Cinemassacre) who we know does this for a living compared to your average user that doesn't take a youtube partnership and more often than not has to work with at best a flip mino camcorder, non-HD webcam as both video and audio. So yeah probably the wrong mindset I had when I said top of the line.

NOTE: Ended this post in comment to Matt_LRR(THANK GOD) and working on requested post.

EDIT: @Matt_LRR

Yeah I'm nowhere going to say it is professional level but yeah imagine having that level of quality equipment as your starting point as a youtuber. God damn she has some good gear and place though.

Tenmar:
snip

Heh, responding to this just for my own amusement. I apparently also don't know what I'm talking about, but I was judging from what I saw produced rather than this image.

The equipment and space is the sort of thing you can throw together If you're an enthusiast or hobbyist.

We shoot with very similar lights (they run a hundred bucks or so per set), the *exact same* microphone (like 150$), and a similar camera, actually. Looks like they're shooing on a DSLR, which is consumer-level video equipment, but that's what we shoot on too. They run between 700-3000$. I'm kind of astonished they don't boom her (or use a lapel mic), instead of mounting the mic to the camera though.

If they're editing on that little macbook pro, they could probably stand to do better.

I'm legit impressed by the space though, but I'd bet they built it, it's not a professional-level room.

Edit:

Tenmar:
Yeah I'm nowhere going to say it is professional level but yeah imagine having that level of quality equipment as your starting point as a youtuber. God damn she has some good gear and place though.

Thing is, if you're really into doing web video you just acquire the stuff. You buy it out of pocket, you use what you have, you ask for it for Christmas, whatever. Hell, Graham won our first decent camera in a contest. But there's always room for improvement.

-m

Tenmar:
Yes I read your condescending bullshit justifications for hate speech. Snipped for readers' convenience.

What makes me think they're just men?

WHY WOULD WOMEN ATTACK HER FOR BEING ON THEIR SIDE? What weird-ass logic do you conform to? It's men, scared, frightened men and boys, who attacked her because she DARED probe the issue of women caricatures in gaming.

Also, she is qualified to speak on the subject: she has a Master's Degree in Social and Political Thought, and a bachelor's degree in Communication Studies, according to her site. So, she's smart.

Harm? What's harmful is the outrage that she sparked. What's harmful is the people, like you, who clearly aren't ready for women to be equal.

All your argument consists of are fallacies, claiming that her viewpoint, that women don't have good representation in games, will end free speech? The fuck? You put words in her mouth: have you seen all her shit? Have you heard her say games make people more misogynistic? I probably don't agree with her on all her ideas, but I'm not stating things for her. You have.

Unfortunately for you, she is right: women are treated poorly by games, in games

and most importantly, by gamers.

Matt_LRR:
What's say we scrap referring to the last post at all, along with everything on your list, and just call it even, and let it go under the bridge. Because I think this paragraph:

SNIP by Tenmar

is really interesting.

Surely you see that this is a vicious cycle, right? The games industry is a boys club, the boy's club alienates women, fewer women become interested in games, fewer women enter the industry, and the industry remains a boy's club.

If this is the case, then isn't it somewhat self evident that speaking out about the ways that the games industry serves to alienate women, and doing so with an eye to making the industry's products more inclusive and diverse, will help to generate more interest in the industry among women, and more women subsequently entering the industry?

If nothing else, generating awareness of these issues helps to make the women who are interested in gaming but are uncomfortable with the way the industry represents them feel like they are supported and more welcome among those who share their interest?

-m

And I was just making the entire post commenting on each of your posts...I feel 50% relieved and 50% robbed. I'm gonna go with the relieved though cause I'd much rather get to know ya and make a friend I can have a beer with than go into the picky uni stuff. I will post how far I made it just for the record so you might see where I was coming from.

Now onto your post.

That main problem I have here is that while we can both agree on that more men want to be involved in the video game industry than women.

(Wait hold up I do have a follow up question to this. What do we exactly qualify as being involved in the video game industry? What criteria should we roll with here? That in itself is pretty interesting considering voice actors when you think of dubbing and how quick their jobs can end.)

But I just don't view it as a vicious cycle at least not yet. I mean this maybe flawed thinking to try and relate it to the 1970's but I think that is part of an industry that is just growing up. I mean we are now officially on the third generation here that is finally old enough to actually become employed by a company related to the video game industry when just all those years ago it was nothing more than people like Nolan Bushnell and friends and a company that used to make hanafuda cards transform themselves over and over again where the business was already structured and where it was more about the cultural standards that were changing.

So I think we certainly should consider the factors of time and culture as being part of the situation as one of the reasons why women were not involved in the video game industry at least in the past. Which is why we would both we right when I say that right now women being involved in the video game industry has nowhere to go but up and I honestly see that everywhere I can think of.

I think of Riot Games and thanks for a friend I made there actually tried to help me get a contract position(didn't get it) but I can honestly say from the grand tour he gave me that the staff they had there certainly wasn't a boys club or a girls club. Hell they even hired Christina Norman(took a while to find her but I remember her being hired) who used to be lead designer and programmer for the entire Mass Effect series for Bioware. They have a very diverse staff there of young guns representing that third generation and have been successful as a company with their single IP.

I think of women like Morgan Webb and regardless of what we think of Xplay she certainly has made her mark being an star in video game circles. Hell I even remember my college UCSB actually getting magazine interview about her career back in 2005.

I also think of Dodger from The Game Station(presshearttocontinue) on youtube. Heavily involved in their projects and has her own channel. Haven't checked out her work myself but I know she's pretty popular and is very active for The Game Station.

So I do see women who have proven to be very qualified and worked hard to be part of the video game industry to say it is a vicious cycle just yet.

As for women becoming less interested in games? Thankfully now we have groups like the ESA to actually make statistics today from what was once pure speculation back in the 1970's and 1980's.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

But however I think the more interesting question to which I think you are getting at is what type of content do women actually like to play? People will always find someway to entertain themselves but the video game industry is a legitimate industry that there is no way going to revert back to a boys club until our medium becomes a dead medium and we are grumpy old men designing games like rebuilding classic cars.

NOTE: Posting this now and will edit in the second and third questions. It is late for all of us and rather have this read now so Matt can go to sleep.

EDIT: Response to Matt's edit

Matt_LRR:
Thing is, if you're really into doing web video you just acquire the stuff. You buy it out of pocket, you use what you have, you ask for it for Christmas, whatever. Hell, Graham won our first decent camera in a contest. But there's always room for improvement.

-m

That is actually really interesting and I have no disagreements with that. Always room for improvement. Only reason I have a flip mino HD camcorder is cause of a friend who gave it to me years ago when we worked on a video game podcast.

EDIT 2: Second and third questions

Second Question Response

This question is hard for me to answer cause I disagreed with the vicious cycle question. If you wanna know why the post took this long, this is the reason.

I think the reason I have a problem with this is that the starting for this question is the reason most of the posts here has broken down into a mess and I think it is this core question.

"Does the video game industry serve to alienate women?"

I think this question causes major logical leaps on both sides. Agree with it and at worst someone is going to assume that the video game industry is intentionally trying to alienate women as in trying to push women out of pursuing a career involved in the video game industry. Disagree and at worst someone is going to assume that video games never alienated women or someone thinks that cause men are objectified that it is okay for women too.

Cause the problem I see with this is that we are thinking about the products being published when we should be thinking of the actual work environment, companies and people who are creating these games. I know one reason why this tropes project rubs me the wrong way was when I looked at her past work in her review of Suckerpunch calls Zack Snyder a "parasite" and much worse. She demonstrated that she didn't do her research on who Zack Snyder is compared to Moviebob cause when I watched their reviews back to back I actually learned a lot more about Zack Snyder's portfolio working on 300, Watchmen and now Legend of the Guardians(that owl movie , learned by IMDB) thanks to Moviebob(I'm really not a huge movie guy and have only seen Watchmen out of all the movies). Cause when I honestly ask myself do I think that Miyamoto or any other game director, producer is sexist for the works he produced? I can't say yes. I don't know them as people, I don't know their private lives and how they actually interact with men and women in a casual situation. I just also find it hard to believe that if given the opportunity Anita would actually go up to Zack Snyder and call him a "parasite"? I don't think so, yet had no problem doing it on her video. But I'm getting sidetracked.

But I just can't see that despite the hyperbolic imagery and characterization as I enjoy the fantasy from Mario, Kirby, Gradius, Ninja Gaiden, Dead or Alive, Kagero's Deception, and Monster Rancher actually alienating women from wanting to be part of the video game industry.

I don't think speaking out is exactly will actually generate more interest because the opportunity to become involved in the video game industry will be more about the person's skills they hone or the games they love to play. It's more about wanting the job or taking the risk to start up a company and finding the right people that want the job regardless of gender. I will say that one main problem that might have caused you to ask a VERY difficult question like this comes from the marketing of mainstream games. Cause a perfectly able woman or girl learning C++ might actually have the skills but ONE factor that might not get them to think that a career in the video game industry might be viable is because they just don't see or look for themselves a game they really like for themselves. Cause honestly pandering on what boys and girls want works in the short term but it doesn't work when they are adults because it will be more reliant on tastes and if they actually can enjoy the product they are playing. But it is still only one factor and not the end all be all.

Third Question Response

Well I think a question that can't really be generalized is this,

"What exactly is the game industry doing representing women that makes women uncomfortable?"

I don't think there is going to be one singular response and really is more of a matter of opinion. I know that there has been a lot of improvements along the way and it will always get better. I know there are less booth babes being hired at game conventions but that's the superficial. But I think the interest has to come from good recruiting(to which I think most companies fail today since they are more inclined to rely on applicants to apply online) and the person knowing they want to pursue being involved in the video game industry as a career.

As for the support? That always starts at the home to actually be encouraged to learn the skills that will enable you to build the portfolio or have a great idea to take the risk and build a company. Cause once again the image should be more based on the actual work environment and work teams and not 100% based on the products developed. I mean hell for all we know that the Leisure Suit Larry Kickstarter has a couple of women involved in the production cause of a positive work environment and great people and like the game(I will say god I feel sorry those people who worked on the last couple of Larry games both male and female).

Finally since I read your last quote of me I want to say this.

Thank you for having a wonderful conversation with me and enjoy your weekend out of town, don't forget to take some pictures.

I don't think the project is going to be any sort of extreme harm but I am always precarious about people who abuse their status because I have seen it before where they push their agenda over the actual people who originally supported them. From her previous work I say she is not qualified to actually take on this project.

I think a discussion on women involved in the video game industry should and I am confident that it does take play but I think that when we talk about tropes which are narrative devices in story telling that it is the wrong approach. The games of the past and present(especially the present if you ask me have been much more diverse and involve a lot more women on all levels)isn't as bad of a problem as people would think. Some people see DOA as nothing more than a game of boobs, I see DOA as a game full of conspiracy, corporatism, and characters each with their own backstory that conflicts with another character that motivates them to fight.

What I would much rather see is more articles talking to both men and women involved in the video game industry. Interviewing them and getting their stories published, that might motivate some people to gain that drive and learn what they need to learn to be the next generation.

If there was any resistance that is more of a problem of human resources, recruiting and actually getting one's work noticed. I know that right now I'm having the hardest time trying to ANY job these past two years. I've used every single network I know and friends have all tried to get me a job but was never accepted. I have my B.A. in history and volunteered at a Presidential library, IndieCade and my local library and paid my way through college working retail. But the standards today and having to apply online just makes it impossible, even temp agencies haven't been able to help cause apparently despite doing a lot of record keeping as an archivist and working on all areas of retail doesn't qualify me for even a receptionist job or a crossing guard position. If I do remember though that regardless of one's gender the life span of a person working in the video game industry is only FIVE years. I think Extra credits had it in one of their episodes, I can't remember which one but I know it was in their credits roll.

Once again Matt have a good weekend out of town and thanks for the wonderful conversation.

EDIT 3: Also one more fun fact. My mom plays video games and she LOVES Assassins Creed and greatly enjoyed playing Dragon Age(wasn't a huge fan of playing Dragon Age 2, those dungeons were so repetitive that even she noticed).

EDIT 4: I'm also out of here I distracted myself WAY too long making posts like this. I think I remember the OTHER reason why I stopped posting in the forums. I make WAY too long posts.

Tenmar:

Matt_LRR:
What's say we scrap referring to the last post at all, along with everything on your list, and just call it even, and let it go under the bridge. Because I think this paragraph:

SNIP by Tenmar

is really interesting.

Surely you see that this is a vicious cycle, right? The games industry is a boys club, the boy's club alienates women, fewer women become interested in games, fewer women enter the industry, and the industry remains a boy's club.

If this is the case, then isn't it somewhat self evident that speaking out about the ways that the games industry serves to alienate women, and doing so with an eye to making the industry's products more inclusive and diverse, will help to generate more interest in the industry among women, and more women subsequently entering the industry?

If nothing else, generating awareness of these issues helps to make the women who are interested in gaming but are uncomfortable with the way the industry represents them feel like they are supported and more welcome among those who share their interest?

-m

And I was just making the entire post commenting on each of your posts...I feel 50% relieved and 50% robbed. I'm gonna go with the relieved though cause I'd much rather get to know ya and make a friend I can have a beer with than go into the picky uni stuff. I will post how far I made it just for the record so you might see where I was coming from.

Now onto your post.

That main problem I have here is that while we can both agree on that more men want to be involved in the video game industry than women.

(Wait hold up I do have a follow up question to this. What do we exactly qualify as being involved in the video game industry? What criteria should we roll with here? That in itself is pretty interesting considering voice actors when you think of dubbing and how quick their jobs can end.)

But I just don't view it as a vicious cycle at least not yet. I mean this maybe flawed thinking to try and relate it to the 1970's but I think that is part of an industry that is just growing up. I mean we are now officially on the third generation here that is finally old enough to actually become employed by a company related to the video game industry when just all those years ago it was nothing more than people like Nolan Bushnell and friends and a company that used to make hanafuda cards transform themselves over and over again where the business was already structured and where it was more about the cultural standards that were changing.

So I think we certainly should consider the factors of time and culture as being part of the situation as one of the reasons why women were not involved in the video game industry at least in the past. Which is why we would both we right when I say that right now women being involved in the video game industry has nowhere to go but up and I honestly see that everywhere I can think of.

I think of Riot Games and thanks for a friend I made there actually tried to help me get a contract position(didn't get it) but I can honestly say from the grand tour he gave me that the staff they had there certainly wasn't a boys club or a girls club. Hell they even hired Christina Norman(took a while to find her but I remember her being hired) who used to be lead designer and programmer for the entire Mass Effect series for Bioware. They have a very diverse staff there of young guns representing that third generation and have been successful as a company with their single IP.

I think of women like Morgan Webb and regardless of what we think of Xplay she certainly has made her mark being an star in video game circles. Hell I even remember my college UCSB actually getting magazine interview about her career back in 2005.

I also think of Dodger from The Game Station(presshearttocontinue) on youtube. Heavily involved in their projects and has her own channel. Haven't checked out her work myself but I know she's pretty popular and is very active for The Game Station.

So I do see women who have proven to be very qualified and worked hard to be part of the video game industry to say it is a vicious cycle just yet.

As for women becoming less interested in games? Thankfully now we have groups like the ESA to actually make statistics today from what was once pure speculation back in the 1970's and 1980's.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp

But however I think the more interesting question to which I think you are getting at is what type of content do women actually like to play? People will always find someway to entertain themselves but the video game industry is a legitimate industry that there is no way going to revert back to a boys club until our medium becomes a dead medium and we are grumpy old men designing games like rebuilding classic cars.

NOTE: Posting this now and will edit in the second and third questions. It is late for all of us and rather have this read now so Matt can go to sleep.

I'm going to reply to this in a fairly cursory way, I think, and then I'm going to try and let the whole topic drop - I'm going to be heading out of town for the weekend, and if this whole thread is still raging by the time I get back, I may have to throw myself into traffic.

First off, you and I are coming from a really similar place here, I think we're just interpreting what we're seeing differently.

For clarity's sake, when I said "entering the industry" I meant working on game development as artists, programmers, testers, writers, and so on. Being in a position to manage and affect in a tangible way the kind of content that is approved and created for consumption - providing a female "voice" within game production, basically.

We both seem to agree that more women working in the industry will help to even out the representation of women in games, and create more products that interest women gamers.

So, what I'm seeing a vicious cycle, but one that is slowly breaking down, because more women DO play games now than ever before, and more women ARE working in the industry than ever before. Women are gaining an ever stronger voice and representation within the industry.

By the same token, I see efforts like Tropes vs. Women as a necessary and productive addition to this voice. By strengthening the role of women in gaming, and by drawing attention to ways in which the treatment of women in gaming is not equitable, we serve to drive the industry towards a more diverse, productive, welcoming, accessible, and profitable position.

(As a side note, I don't actually believe that the addition of women to the industry is necessarily enough on it's own to resolve the problem either, but that's going down a rabbit hole of sociological discussion I'm not terribly interested in getting into at the moment. Long and short of it is that women are also not immune from misogyny, owing to the nature of patriarchal upbringing. (See: the Twilight franchise) If you're interested in doing some reading on the topics, discussions of privilege, patriarchy, and internalized misogyny would be good places to look.)

On the other hand, you seem to think a vicious cycle does not exist. And, given that perspective, it would follow that these efforts are simply unnecessary at best and harmful at worst. That's a fair conclusion, given the premise, but I challenge the premise as simply mistaken. I never meant to suggest that the industry was building a vicious cycle by continuing to marginalize women, simply that it was perpetuating it, and resisting its dissolution.

-m

Edit: And on that note, I'm out.

Beardly:

TAdamson:
I think you may have this a bit back-to-front boy. While she may have spammed 4-chan she made her target well before any controversy. Indeed she made $24,000 before the animalistic hoard descended upon her (Figuratively I mean.)

If the sexist comments of a few enabled her to leverage another $125,000, well what the bleeding hell did they expect? Sexist attacks on a feminist web-saavy blogger kickstarter? Gold!

How do you not see something wrong with goading a group of known internet misogynists so that she could stir up controversy and play the victim?

As I said earlier - if she was sincere and didn't expect the backlash, they posted terrible misogynistic comments and stirred up the controversy.

If she was baiting them and they took the bait, they posted terrible misogynistic comments and stirred up the controversy.

Either way - they posted terrible misogynistic comments and stirred up the controversy.

Misogyny still happened, and it isn't tempered by the possibility that they may have been baiting them.

Tenmar:

TAdamson:

How could you not see something wrong with a known group of internet misogynists?

I have to ask the question here. Who is exactly a "known group of internet misogynists"? Who is exactly accountable in terms of a leadership position that said group is willing to follow? Cause you are now getting to a specific here yet still not specific enough to actually spark a conversation on the topic of said group.

Also could you please prove that said group is organized, has a leader and has demonstrated that they are organized to commit enough acts that they are misogynists?

First - thanks for the great response to mine. Now that I'm awake, I can look into it, but it appears it's been asked and answered already.

Second- "known group of internet misogynists" refers to 4chan. It's unfair to call 4Chan as a whole this, I agree. However, the response to "she spammed 4chan" was "she spammed a known group of internet misogynists". While if she did this, she does bear some responsibility, but it's the internet equivalent of saying, "she shouldn't have walked down that alley at night." That is, while she may bear some responsibility for provoking, it's on the few that responded for being provoked. And it's on the general gamer response for - instead of acting in disgust on what happened - using the opportunity to criticize her.

And further, if the purpose of the harassment was to say "$6,000 is way too much to ask for with an internet series", then it's a really bad way to communicate that.

Captcha: up or down. That's hilarious.

Tenmar:
[quote="Matt_LRR" post="6.379179.14882266"]
I feel that the main issue is to actually get more women who actually have the skills and desire to work in the video game industry to actually prove themselves in the video game industry. I gotta be honest, to me I really don't see much a solution cause the first step is actually finding those people both men and women who want to work in the video game industry and actually get them to start early and understand what they need to learn and take those skills and apply them building a portfolio. It's not a solution where you can just throw money at it or hire people who aren't qualified. But chances are by typing this I'm making even MORE of a mess. But I know there are good ways to find the right solution that if more women wanted to get involved in the video game industry they can.

See here I agree with you. Now here's the problem with that - in an environment in which someone making feminist videos will get this sort of response, where's the motivation for female voices to come into gaming? We are still at the "you need a thick skin to work here" variety, and this is decidedly more harsh and unequal reaction.

Taking a look at Kickstarter's Film and Video section, he's not the only webseries asking for money.

This guy's asking for 40,000, save for several (albeit good quality) episodes already produced. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jabarijohnson/jabari-presents-season-2-documentary-web-series?ref=category), originally distributed "for free"

This guy's making a satirical video game webseries (fictional), the kind of thing others have done "for free". They asked for 75,000 and were overfunded to the tune of 275,000. Hasn't even made more than the pilot yet.

This guy asked for 60,000 for Bronycon the Documentary - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/257527888/bronycon-the-documentary - and while he was criticized in one case in the SAME VIDEO as criticized Tropes vs. Women - did not receive the same treatment.

Journeyquest, which has been making a webseries since 2010 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zombieorpheus/journeyquest-season-2?ref=category) asked for 60,000, and receiving 113,000. Despite making 2 seasons for free.

SMBC wants to expand into an animated webseries http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/smbctheater/smbc-theater-goes-to-space?ref=category for 15,000

Whether or not you disagree with her videos, there is some unfair treatment here. She was singled out. One could only speculate as to why. The excuse they're currently going to is that costs outweighed the demand, and now funding outweighs importance. I would argue the above examples could fit into that same criteria, and yet she is singled out. She asked for a fraction, 10% of what most of the above are asking for. She has been singled out.

Seriously, the cost of production, the amount of funding she got, etc - that's between her and her backers.

While I don't necessarily agree with the Tropes vs. Women videos, but I really like that those videos exist. I want to hear similar perspectives, and I want to hear it provoke discussion. Whether she's the right person for "the job", well she's not the only applicant. There will need to be others (Ashley Burch, I'm looking at you), but we aren't going to see it soon if the kind of barrier they have to traverse to get there.

That's what's wrong here.

Full disclosure, I'm not a backer. I've discovered that a few of my facebook friends are, however.

MrMan999:

I never said corporal punishment should be used frequently. My point was that parents should discipline their kids for saying stupid shit. Pardon my french.

It is true that such things should be used infrequently, but there's a lot of lazy parents out there who will go nuts with it. But you are also right in saying that children should be disciplined for saying deliberately sexist / racist or offensive things.

DrVornoff:
If you do not count yourself among the people I described, then the correct pronoun would have been "they." So why did you choose to include yourself with "we?"

Because you were obviously addressing that to the people who are/were criticising her.

DrVornoff:
Bull. Fucking. Shit. That is not what I said, and you know it. Why are you lying?

That's certainly what you meant.

DrVornoff:
I could say the same about you. You've been nothing but an utter child for the last several pages.

"You dare criticize my glorious beautiful waifu? TO THE GALLOWS WITH YE!"

DrVornoff:
I presented my argument, and you posed no counterargument. What exactly am I supposed to do?.

You made a claim, not an argument. Saying that you made an argument implies you have some sort of evidence to support your statements, which you do not. You cannot ask me to prove your claims, that's your job.

DrVornoff:
What are you here to talk about?

I'd say Anita and her relentless hordes of White Knights.

PercyBoleyn:

DrVornoff:
If you do not count yourself among the people I described, then the correct pronoun would have been "they." So why did you choose to include yourself with "we?"

Because you were obviously addressing that to the people who are/were criticising her.

DrVornoff:
Bull. Fucking. Shit. That is not what I said, and you know it. Why are you lying?

That's certainly what you meant.

DrVornoff:
I could say the same about you. You've been nothing but an utter child for the last several pages.

"You dare criticize my glorious beautiful waifu? TO THE GALLOWS WITH YE!"

DrVornoff:
I presented my argument, and you posed no counterargument. What exactly am I supposed to do?.

You made a claim, not an argument. Saying that you made an argument implies you have some sort of evidence to support your statements, which you do not. You cannot ask me to prove your claims, that's your job.

DrVornoff:
What are you here to talk about?

I'd say Anita and her relentless hordes of White Knights.

Wow, you really hate Anita and from the sounds of it any woman who voices her opinion on sexism, don't you?

PercyBoleyn:

PiCroft:

Wow, you really hate Anita and from the sounds of it any woman who voices her opinion on sexism, don't you?

You're never going to have sex with her. Hug?

This may come as a shock to you, but it is feasible for people to support a womans opinion on something without wanting to have sex with her. The fact this is your go-to argument tells loads ofn your views on women and the validity of their opinions.

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

In short, grow up you massive fucking child.

edit: I also reported your contentless post.

PiCroft:
snip

I guess a hug won't do. How about a double hug?

PercyBoleyn:

PiCroft:
snip

I guess a hug won't do. How about a double hug?

Do you actually have any proof she is a scammer, an incompetent or anything else you have accused her of?

PiCroft:

Do you actually have any proof she is a scammer, an incompetent or anything else you have accused her of?

I suggest you read Tenmar's posts starting from page twenty two I think. I'm not in the mood to debate white knights right now.

DrVornoff:

They're not taken seriously. They're just given screentime because outrage means you look at news about them and see more ads. In fact, going on about them like you are is giving them more publicity and making them seem stronger than they actually are.

Feminists like Oakley, yes, people take their feminist ideals as serious as Doomsday prophecies. However, this particular video that is going to be produced apparently is taken seriously enough to not only get serious funding but also has been used in classrooms and by parents to their children. This isn't just "oh god, someone has an opinion I disagree with", this is people being taught about the importance of very particular plights (complete with delightful villains) with the disregarding of others. The seriousness people are taking this video (admittedly I am, but I'm thinking more of a non-critical stance) is my problem.

Schadrach:

There certainly are, and there are also some really terrible ones, and also some who claim to be the nicer variety unless something offends them. There's also the ones that try to arrange campaigns to destroy media that they dislike. Also ones that advocate mass castration of men. These are all equally feminist, because "feminism is not a monolith", which while also meaning that you don't have to defend the positions of feminists, even very popular and/or mainstream ones because, also sets the bar for who can be counted as feminist very, very low.

By some definitions, as I have pointed out in several of these threads, *I* am feminist, as I believe that men and women should have identical rights and responsibilities where possible, and as similar as possible when not possible (reproductive rights have to be asymmetric due to biology, but "asymmetric" doesn't mean need to mean "the father has none, only obligations which remain even if the mother was dishonest about his paternity"), with no one getting special benefits because of what is between their legs. However I also believe that patriarchy theory is effectively religious dogma, being unfalsifiable and axiomatic. I don't accept the concept of rape culture either (in short: the argument that has been done to death regarding video games and violence is mutually exclusive with the theory of rape culture unless rape is "magic" in some fashion). Etc, etc, etc.

Oh I believe very strongly in the importance in equality. I also believe that there should be equality between men and females as much as possible including money pay and what jobs are accessible, including one or two stands that may be seen as controversial (e.g. pregnancy as an agreed concept rather than one deciding and pushing it onto the other in various ways, which can become disturbing when one decides to get money out of the second using law loopholes). However, the reason why I hate the term "feminist" and would never apply it to myself is because gender differences aren't the only part I feel strongly about. The fact that countless feminists only concentrate on gender differences irritates me just because there are also sexuality and race problems existing in video games. Not to mention, the video in question is incredibly critical in favour of females instead of a view of "well, women have it worse, but men have their own problems too".

Despite the fact that I have been out of this thread for quite some time now (at least 24 hours) and had a very nice discussion with itsthesheppy, I just wanted to chime in one last time, to correct an assumption:
The assumption that ALL OF 4CHAN IS MISOGYNIST:
4chan is divided into imageboards with a lot of variety, most of which aren't really that well-known and usually quite a nice place to be and not at all misogynist.
And then there is /b/ (gotta break rules 1 and 2).
/b/ is known for being, well, /b/.
But the misogynie many of you refer to probably stems from the "TITS OR GTFO"- posts which are usually made as a response to someone outing themselves as female.
The reason why they are made though is not misogynistic.
See, on /b/ everyone is equal and everyone is anonymous. No-one knows anything about anyone else, and yet everyone is free to interact with one another. Proclaiming yourself to be a female is usually done in several circumstances:

1. Attention whoring.

2. Trying to make your opinion seem "special" because, cleary, you must be the only woman present, which is why your female insight on the issue should be singled out and hailed as special.

In both these cases, the proclamation of one's gender is but a demand for special treatment, which goes against the principles of equality, the very foundation of the "anonymous"-structure.
So, in order to prevent this it was established, that, should a woman expect special treatment simply on the merit of her being a woman, then she should first provide a picture of her breasts with a timestamp, in the hopes that this would stop others from proclaiming themselves to be women and expecting special treatment.

Anonymous has no race
Anonymous has no gender

So trying to single yourself out, by giving yourself a race or a gender goes against the prevailing equality.

There are times of course, when you are free to give yourself a name, a race and a gender, usually when asking for advice or sharing an experience, which gives a legitimate reason to single yourself out, and I must admit, that many young "newfags" don't quite get what titsorgtfo is about in that case, which is why you will often find demands for tits in threads started by a woman for legitimate reasons (a.e. not attention-whoring), simply because many do not understand why "t or gtfo" was established in the first place and I will admit that these instances are misogynistic, and that nowadays, they are far from being scarce, but please refrain from calling 4chan or /b/ misogynistic without giving further details or examples.

Your third point falls flat on its face because showing us a muscled man and telling us "this is what you want to look like" is JUST LIKE showing Jessica Alba's body to any girl and telling her "this is what you want to look like", despite ANYONE'S intentions. You can be sure I'll be offended by people telling me that it's the same thing that happens to women, but it doesn't matter when it happens to you, because you want to look like this.

I actually, don't at ALL want huge muscles and like my body the way it is and I'm sure my female counterpart feels the same way about her body, however it may look.

Your first point is not in the context of video games, so I'm not seeing why it had to be included. The thing is, her campaign is about the portrayal of women in video games, NOT generally in real, every day life.

and while I suppose your second point does hold water, the fact is, since your other points are either not in the same context that people are arguing and your third point is just sexist at best, I'm not seeing how this video said anything worthwhile.

If you want to tackle the subject of sexism, you have to do it equally for both men and women or not at all or I won't support you.

PiCroft:

PercyBoleyn:

PiCroft:

Wow, you really hate Anita and from the sounds of it any woman who voices her opinion on sexism, don't you?

You're never going to have sex with her. Hug?

This may come as a shock to you, but it is feasible for people to support a womans opinion on something without wanting to have sex with her. The fact this is your go-to argument tells loads ofn your views on women and the validity of their opinions.

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

In short, grow up you massive fucking child.

edit: I also reported your contentless post.

You're responding to a joke. I think he's referencing a back-and-forth he had with DrVornoff earlier in the thread...I laughed.

I don't know how people can't tell that the guy has been pissed off about his treatment for a while now. If he's going to engage anyone, it's going to have to be someone who isn't bringing a superior attitude. Flogging a dead horse, savvy?

Calibanbutcher:
snip

Rules 1 and 2 apply even if you're trying to make a point.

Sexual Harassment Panda:

PiCroft:

PercyBoleyn:

You're never going to have sex with her. Hug?

This may come as a shock to you, but it is feasible for people to support a womans opinion on something without wanting to have sex with her. The fact this is your go-to argument tells loads ofn your views on women and the validity of their opinions.

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

In short, grow up you massive fucking child.

edit: I also reported your contentless post.

You're responding to a joke. I think he's referencing a back-and-forth he had with DrVornoff earlier in the thread...I laughed.

I don't know how people can't tell that the guy has been pissed off about his treatment for a while now. If he's going to engage anyone, it's going to have to be someone who isn't bringing a superior attitude. Flogging a dead horse, savvy?

This point:

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

Still stands.

Really, if the woman was dumb enough to provoke 4chan, a wretched hive of scum and villainy devoid of any sense of conventional morality, infamous both for its boundless stupidity and endless capacity for lulz, then she reaps what she sowed.

That's like dropping a rich American businessperson into Somalia, then acting all surprised when they get hogtied and held for ransom.

(apologies to any Somali's out there.)

On one hand I agree with Bob in that 'gamers' be shouldn't reacting with the amount of vemon and sexist comments (jokes and trolling or not) that have been used. Trolls should be ignored and so on, but there's also the fact that 'gamers' shouldn't prove the stereotypes to be true. If someone wants to research a serious issue and apply it to games they should be allowed, without so much backfire.

Like it or not games can be sexist and history can prove that much. From the amount of cheesecake on show to the stereotypes used, there is defiantly a case for this. Lara Croft, Princess Peach, Other M Samus and many female characters created by Team Ninja do play into this. And it makes videogames and the people that play them look childish, which isn't always true. Point blank maybe 'gamers' need to adimt there's a case of this and not get so defensive about it, the average feminist is NOT trying to 'ruin games'.

However as many posters here have said, I have my doubts about the project and kickstarter. This could just be my knee-jerk reaction to any kickstarter now, having seen enough examples of such things being used to make money and little else. To me $6000 seems a little much if plans to do the same thing she has done in her other vids, which I think don't explore the subject enough. If she plans to go more in-depth then far enough, we'll have to see the kickstarter was worthwhile.

I'll also note that she has apparantly tried to review the amount of sexist in a game she didn't bother playing. That alone screams 'not taking this seriously' or at least trying to make a strawman arguement. If that is anything to go by, I doubt she'll put the research or effort into her series and it will be shallow and pointless. But I hope that I am wrong.

PiCroft:

Sexual Harassment Panda:

PiCroft:

This may come as a shock to you, but it is feasible for people to support a womans opinion on something without wanting to have sex with her. The fact this is your go-to argument tells loads ofn your views on women and the validity of their opinions.

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

In short, grow up you massive fucking child.

edit: I also reported your contentless post.

You're responding to a joke. I think he's referencing a back-and-forth he had with DrVornoff earlier in the thread...I laughed.

I don't know how people can't tell that the guy has been pissed off about his treatment for a while now. If he's going to engage anyone, it's going to have to be someone who isn't bringing a superior attitude. Flogging a dead horse, savvy?

This point:

She wanted to make a video about something, got a massive amount of support (and hate) and now plans on doing what she set out to do with a greatly increased scope. Every post of yours on this thread has been accusing her of being a scammer, an incompetent and every other horrible thing under the sun, all because she's talking about something you don't like.

Still stands.

He's gotten at least as much as he's given out, and for saying things that people don't like.

There's hypocrisy evident here. Do we believe in free speech or don't we? Do we think that going on the attack is the best way to win anyone over? As far as I can tell, if you assume the worst of someone and then tell them that they're a woman-hating clueless and inept loser, the likelihood is that they'll go on the defensive. There's not much chance that they're going to think you're awesome and come around to your way of thinking.

Bullshit on both sides, friend. This has only become a microcosm for the insidious nature of this forum as a whole. It's not enough to have a good point, you have to dominate, conceed nothing.

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