Volition Dev Vs. Pre-Owned Games

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Plinglebob:
Im just going to go join all the other PC gamers in this thread in saying that this really isn't unexpected. We haven't had a serious pre-owned market in over a decade yet somehow PC Gaming is still alive and kicking. Out of curiosity, to all those that say they'll stop playing if this gets implimented on a console, what will you do if all consoles from now on come with these measures (as the one that impliments it will more likely get exclusives so it will probably be all consoles or no consoles)? Your hatred of no pre-owned market means that PC gaming is out so will you just stop gaming all together?

Take a look at any retail store or Gamestop, see how small the PC Games section is? PC gaming has migrated to digital distribution as there is no longer any benefit to owning physical copies. We have many digital distribution services and many people wait for a sale (usually Steam) to buy games. It means that while PC Gaming is alive and kicking, it is kicking at $19.99, not $59.99, with few exceptions (Skyrim, MW3, etc...).

That won't happen on consoles because the console makers won't allow competing DD services. Have you seen how much digital copies cost on the Live Marketplace or on PSN? Usually more expensive than retail. They are nothing like the PC DD marketplace and they never will be because unlike PC, consoles are not an open platform.

Frostbite3789:

Harker067:
Right...... volition i may love your early work but this sounds pretty awful to me. The companies that get my full price money are the ones that have made great games I love in the past. Quite frankly a lot of games aren't worth 60$ to me and by the time they are available for something I might pay then tend to only be found used.

Or you know. On sale. Which stores have every week.

Nah not really, stores around me don't usually have sales that would really change my mind like that. Steam and gog excluded damn have I spent quite a bit when things went on sale there but console games no not really.

The last volition games I bought new were descent1-3 and freespace 1-2 off gog after that you have to go all the way back to red faction for pc and then freespace again. I've only bought saints row 1 and red faction 2 used several years after their release and both fairly forgettable. So I've been a customer of theirs in the past but nothing of theirs has lately really appealed to me. Whereas I imported a big box version of witcher 2 from the states and bought a psp for persona 1-3. I'm personally more then willing to shell out full price for new games volition you just have to meet me halfway here and make it something worth buying.

And until freespace 3 or something similar comes out (not holding my breath) volition can joins ubisoft. Now off to go change this avatar off freespace 2 to something more deserving.

Zachary Amaranth:

kiri2tsubasa:

In that case I am not placing any weight on that rumor until Microsoft actually announces the next Xbox. Only then will that rumor be dashed or confirmed. If only everyone took a "Wait and See" policy.

Which should be standard policy.

I kind of wonder how many of the people panicking this time were the same people panicking when this was rumoured to be the case for the PS3. Granted, with it being like 7 years old, a number of the people panicking now might actually be too young.

No one is panicking but I think it's important for people to get their opinions out there. After all, if Microsoft is considering this then they should now be aware that it would be a mistake. For all you know Microsoft leaked this just to gauge reaction but you don't think people should react until it's done and too late to prevent.

I don't understand this attitude. If people were really panicking then I could understand but they aren't. Having an opinion =/= panic.

I rent about 90% of my games. I pay 20$ a month to a local store and can rent up to 3 console games simultaneously for as long as I want (I can also return them at any time and get 3 more, and then 3 more etc). I'm pretty sure that if Microsoft were to implement a rental service, it would be nothing like that and it would skin me alive, because they are greedy cunts. So yeah, such a lockdown would make a console useless to me, since I won't pay 60$ for 8 hour games. So instead of getting some income from me, they would get zero. Clever.

"only $60"

Yeah, right.

Meh. When you guys at colition stop making shitty games we can discuss me buying them. Get working on a new FreeSpace.

As for the idea of locking games to accounts: well, console people, this is what we PC gamers have been bitching over for years. I personally won't be buying new consoles if this is implemented. My PS3 and 360 will suffice.

Grey Carter:
Personally, judging by Games For Windows Live, I don't think Microsoft could organize a pissup in a brewery.

Thank you for this.

And there's no way in hell used games are the demons this guy is saying they are. I understand that you guys need your $60 - really, I do. But don't you dare tell me I can't buy a used game if I'm not sure about the title. Hell, I wish I could sell back PC games, too, because I own quite a few completely awful titles on Steam.

Dammit Volition, used games have a right to exist, so says Jim Sterling!

I think Louis C.K. said it best:

"Suck a bag of dicks."

Here's an idea for all you whiny shithole publishers who love to piss on about how "parasitic" Gamestop and its customers are: don't renew their distribution contracts. Stop selling them new games, and see who it hurts more. If you're really doing them a favor by having them whore out your games before they're even released, then they'll die off. After all, you still have the shelf space in all the big-box retailers, right? So cut off their life support.

Why don't you do that? Show them who's boss? Is it because you know your sales will tank and you'll starve yourself? Find out that you're NOT the boss?

Gamestop is a company that's not gay, religious, or of an ethnic minority, so there's no law that says you HAVE to do business with them.

So put up or STFU, and stop inflicting your empty-headed little cheerleaders on the rest of us. We know that yes, Gamestop are scumbags who horribly rip off those who sell them games, but that the scumbags go all the way to the top of the chain, and your noisy little twerp brigade is not going to do much to convince us that you're "poor, victimized little street-waifs who need us to help you." If they're such a horrible enemy to the industry, stop feeding them, instead of grubbing onto every dollar you can and then expecting pathetic PR stunts to do your dirty work for you.

(NB: For any of said cheerleaders who think this is a defense of GameStop, read the last paragraph again. Repeat until it sinks in, or you die of starvation.)

Grey Carter:
"In the end, I fully believe that we have to do something about these issues or our industry is going to fall apart," he continues. "People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60. They also don't seem to realize how much they are hurting us when they buy a used game...

One would really have to hope that developers don't think we're that stupid. That we're all just a bunch of mindless lemmings humping each other for the next crumb to be thrown our way from the developers. Do they honestly think we'll buy it that they're losing money on making these games? That used game sales are just ripping their business apart? It's like all the music artists that whined and moaned about downloading music was losing them money...then after the interview they went back to snorting coke off a stripper's ass.

So yeah, basically this:

RaNDM G:
You've already shipped 3.8 million copies of Saints 3, well past your initial goal of 3 mil by March. Used game sales aren't going to put you in debt anytime soon.

This applies to any game company out there. If you make a shitty game you're not going to be making any money off of it anyways. If you make a good game, then you'll make a shit load of money in the first couple weeks...that's how it works: one big jackpot at the start with a slowly diminishing return afterword.

To sum up my position, here's what I said in another topic dealing with this exact same news story:

RJ 17:
Yeah, as numerous people on even the first page of comments have posted, this is just a rumor and there's absolutely no way that it's true. For starters it would quite literally murder the game rental industry. But beyond that, it wouldn't just be XBox shooting itself in the foot, it'd be XBox shooting itself right in the dick. It'd be the worst move in the videogame industry since the Virtual Boy.

I really think that the first Blood Rayne game has a fantastic quote that sums up this situation. When she explains her aversion to jumping into the water, her partner/friend/whatever, I forget, it's been too long since I've played that game, tells her that it'll be fine and "it won't kill you". To this Rayne says "Yeah, neither will jamming a pencil into my eye, but that doesn't mean I should do it." So will it kill us? No. But it will make us all want to jam pencils into the eyes of everyone that works at Microsoft while also not buying the console seeing as how they've apparently turned into vampire game nazis...alright I think I got a little off track here.

Point is that as a business decision that would be truly a horrible idea. I can only imagine that the day XBox does officially announce "No more used games!" is the day that a boycott against them begins...and I can't help but think the boycott will be supported by many, many gamers. I mean hell, even if I was a PS3 player, I'd be pissed off about this kind of thing purely on principle.

I actually made an account with the Escapist just to comment on this article.

Volition. Throw away that useless martyr complex. I have never thought of any of your games as being worth more than a weekend's worth of play borrowed from a friend long-since bored of your empty games. If Xbox DOES make a console that outlaws used games, say goodbye to YOUR sales.

I pay for games new all the time. I prefer to buy them used over new just because it feels more like "my" game and if it breaks, it was my fault. But I also love the used game market because years after a game comes out, if I want to play an older game, I can find it easily on the shelf of a nearby game store for cheap. It no longer stands up to current games, so I pay less money for it (LOGIC. DERP.) and yet it's not rare and hard to find, so I don't have to pay 90 dollars on ebay for a "Collector's copy" like when I wanted to get Marvel vs. Capcom 2 way before it was on XBLA and the only physical copies were like 70 dollars even though the game was like 10 years old.

But let me say this for sure. If a game system decided to outlaw used games and only allow me one console per game... FUCK. THAT. When I buy games, I run to a friend's house within the first few days to play it there. I WILL NOT go through a lengthy "subscription transfer" so my friend and I can goof off for a few rounds in Soul Calibur V. If Xbox decides to move in this way, as a long-standing Xbox fan (and die-hard console fanboy for a while, as I'm ashamed to say), I will officially call myself a Sony fan and by the PS4.

God, this asshole... boiled my blood so bad I had to make an account to rant so I wouldn't be in a bad mood all day. Geez. And Volition, this is a promise. If games become New-ONLY, I will learn everything I can about hacking/pirating and find a way to crack your games and give away hundreds of thousands of copies for free. Just to laugh and watch you squirm.

Crono1973:

Plinglebob:
Im just going to go join all the other PC gamers in this thread in saying that this really isn't unexpected. We haven't had a serious pre-owned market in over a decade yet somehow PC Gaming is still alive and kicking. Out of curiosity, to all those that say they'll stop playing if this gets implimented on a console, what will you do if all consoles from now on come with these measures (as the one that impliments it will more likely get exclusives so it will probably be all consoles or no consoles)? Your hatred of no pre-owned market means that PC gaming is out so will you just stop gaming all together?

Take a look at any retail store or Gamestop, see how small the PC Games section is? PC gaming has migrated to digital distribution as there is no longer any benefit to owning physical copies. We have many digital distribution services and many people wait for a sale (usually Steam) to buy games. It means that while PC Gaming is alive and kicking, it is kicking at $19.99, not $59.99, with few exceptions (Skyrim, MW3, etc...).

That won't happen on consoles because the console makers won't allow competing DD services. Have you seen how much digital copies cost on the Live Marketplace or on PSN? Usually more expensive than retail. They are nothing like the PC DD marketplace and they never will be because unlike PC, consoles are not an open platform.

The PC gaming section of stores was shrinking before Digital Distribution became big mainly due to online stores (Amazon, Play etc) offering better deals and PC gamers more likely to spot them along with no pre-owned.

So its not only obvious that Volition let a "Project $10" situation enter Saints 3, but they goddam love that business model! Well, I know what games I am intentionally getting used: THQ and EA games (if I ever do, like with Saints 4), just to mess with them for a drop in the bucket.

Well, fuck this fucknut. If the next generation of consoles comes out with some anti-used games technology, I'm one guy who won't be buying.

As someone who researches almost all of his game purchases thoroughly (unless I know for damn certain I want it, i.e. Dark Souls) and still ends up with a game that maybe reviews well or sounds fun but is still a dud, I would be choked.

There would be little to no recourse for consumers to recoup losses when faced with a bad purchase. What about gift purchases? Your [insert relative] gets you a game, you try it out, don't like it return it with your gift receipt. Oh wait, no, you won't. There's no used games sales for your console so you're stuck with it.

I understand that video game makers need to make money to keep putting out games, but if they're going to continue to try and bleed me for every cent they can, without letting me save a few pennies here and there when I need to, I just won't support them at all anymore. I can happily keep playing PS3, 3DS, PSP, PSV and Xbox titles for years to come yet. Years. Enough years to be well into a struggling console generation that is lacking customers because a huge number of them have been financially locked out of buying games.

I realize that game pirates play a large role in this, but the people that are really pushing me away from video games (and it's starting) are greedy publishers and entitles developers.

So, to get this straight, the best idea the industry has for increasing sales is NOT to create better games, thus making a customer more likely to feel a game DESERVES to be bought new, but instead to force the consumer into overpaying for games they would not otherwise buy new and in doing so prevent people that WOULD have bought the game at the lower, used price, and told their friends about it and spread positive press, from actually buying it. You're purposefully limiting your potential fan base, thus HURTING your own sales margin, because you think that used games are the worst thing ever. That's the plan?

I'd like to think Microsoft is not that dumb. I'd like to think that, as a college student, the barrier to entry to actually play games, especially since I'll be spending my next two years in the U.K. where games are more expensive than Volition's narrow-minded assessment of the United States, won't become that high.

...Please, Microsoft. Don't be this dumb. I'll jump to Sony in .005 seconds. Oh, and if you do this too, Sony, then I'll just be going to PCs, and I'd bet dollars to donuts I'm far from the only one who will.

Continue at your own risk, games industry, and please, try not to step on the corpses of those who have supported you for so long on your way out if this shit passes.

New games only works on the PC because they are so cheap and go on sale fast. A week after release, I got DE:HR for $34.99 and preordered Witcher 2 for $33.

On the Volition side of things, I got Red Faction: Armageddon for $5.99 a couple months ago.

Send me the memo when this happens to console games.

Plinglebob:
Im just going to go join all the other PC gamers in this thread in saying that this really isn't unexpected. We haven't had a serious pre-owned market in over a decade yet somehow PC Gaming is still alive and kicking. Out of curiosity, to all those that say they'll stop playing if this gets implimented on a console, what will you do if all consoles from now on come with these measures (as the one that impliments it will more likely get exclusives so it will probably be all consoles or no consoles)? Your hatred of no pre-owned market means that PC gaming is out so will you just stop gaming all together?

True but what PC games did have were shareware and demo versions. In other words there were more try-before-you-buy systems in place. Secondly PC games in general tend to have a slightly more reasonable price-point.

and to answer your questionI turn to this little gem from Economics: Where there is overwhelming demand there will inevitably be a supplier. It's as simple as that. if the all the big three implement it then it's pretty easy for a 4th to come in and say We will allow pre-owned rental games and bam. Instant competition.

And failing that, as I said, we can take up nw hobbies, Nintendo, Sony and MS will be the ones feeling the hammer . Wouldn't b the first time consumer disinterest crash the video game industry. heh heh.

O I laughed when I read "only 60$" o you lucky ones who get to play bad games and lose interest in gaming because every time you paid 60$ you've gotten disappointed. And then we have a decreasing fan base woho mission succeed crashing our company yey what we wanted...
OH wait they have THQ as publishers that explains it...

And if it were only 60$ the difference and tax makes games around here more in (translated in to dollars again) 75-80$... plus the special eds..

Falcon123:
....I'd like to think Microsoft is not that dumb.

Two words Falcon123 "Windows Vista". You want 3 words "Windows Millenium Edition"

:)

Falcon123:
So, to get this straight, the best idea the industry has for increasing sales is NOT to create better games, thus making a customer more likely to feel a game DESERVES to be bought new, but instead to force the consumer into overpaying for games they would not otherwise buy new and in doing so prevent people that WOULD have bought the game at the lower, used price, and told their friends about it and spread positive press, from actually buying it. You're purposefully limiting your potential fan base, thus HURTING your own sales margin, because you think that used games are the worst thing ever. That's the plan?

I'd like to think Microsoft is not that dumb. I'd like to think that, as a college student, the barrier to entry to actually play games, especially since I'll be spending my next two years in the U.K. where games are more expensive than Volition's narrow-minded assessment of the United States, won't become that high.

...Please, Microsoft. Don't be this dumb. I'll jump to Sony in .005 seconds. Oh, and if you do this too, Sony, then I'll just be going to PCs, and I'd bet dollars to donuts I'm far from the only one who will.

Continue at your own risk, games industry, and please, try not to step on the corpses of those who have supported you for so long on your way out if this shit passes.

Gamers are a fairly entitled bunch, the majority will not give a shit if the game DESERVES to be bought new, they will be told by a gamestop employee when they are buying new that they can get the exact same thing for 5-10 dollars off, and be asked why they don't want to save money.

They will pick the used game almost every time, because it is the exact same product at a cheaper price point, with peer pressure working against them.

besides, all the people saying "This is BS, this sucks, I am so not going to buy if this happens!" Well, the game industry was really shown the last time people said how much they were going to boycott a game...it and ITS sequel sold better than any other media in history.

So, while people are hoppin up and down saying how horrible it is, the big companies have learned they can just snicker and brush those people aside because they will likely end up as customers anyway.

BigTuk:

Falcon123:
....I'd like to think Microsoft is not that dumb.

Two words Falcon123 "Windows Vista". You want 3 words "Windows Millenium Edition"

:)

...See, this is why I'm terrified. There are people on other forums who keep trying to tell me there's no way Microsoft would ever actually do this...but they've made plenty of decisions before that would lend me to believe they actually could do something this dumb. I'm terrified for the next generation of gamer that may grow up not knowing better and put up with this nonsense.

Vakz:
So what happens when the Nextbox or NextStation breaks? Do we lose all our games? Do we have to send the console away for weeks so they can transfer the games? What if the warranty has run out?

I really do not see any way that this will not just end up with piracy skyrocketing.

But...but...piracy is impossible on consoles. That's why dev houses keep telling me why they are moving to console development exclusively. Right?....right?

*walks away sheepishly for asking such stupid questions*

As long as the video game industry's philosophy is "make bigger, more expensive games and then figure out how to turn a profit" it will fall apart.

Devs are getting like dinosaurs, bigger and dumber. The 2nd video game crash is coming.

FelixG:

Falcon123:
Snip.

Gamers are a fairly entitled bunch, the majority will not give a shit if the game DESERVES to be bought new, they will be told by a gamestop employee when they are buying new that they can get the exact same thing for 5-10 dollars off, and be asked why they don't want to save money.

They will pick the used game almost every time, because it is the exact same product at a cheaper price point, with peer pressure working against them.

besides, all the people saying "This is BS, this sucks, I am so not going to buy if this happens!" Well, the game industry was really shown the last time people said how much they were going to boycott a game...it and ITS sequel sold better than any other media in history.

So, while people are hoppin up and down saying how horrible it is, the big companies have learned they can just snicker and brush those people aside because they will likely end up as customers anyway.

See, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on the entitled claim in this particular issue. You can buy used movies. You can buy used televisions. You can buy used furniture. You can buy used literally anything else (though on some things, I'm fairly certain you wouldn't want to). Why shouldn't we be allowed to buy used games.

You could argue that Gamestop is fishy. Fine. Agree to disagree. My experience is that for every one with shady practices there are at least two that handle themselves well, but that's not the argument here. There are plenty of other ways to buy used games (Amazon, Ebay, hell, even Wal-Marts near me have done it before), and all of them are invalid under this policy too. So is the policy of borrowing games from friends, something I do regularly.

And on your final point, there's a big difference between software and hardware. At $60 on a moral issue when compared to a game of incredibly high quality, you're likely to get over yourself and buy away because honestly, the game is worth it. This is the type of policy that for me, and anyone else without a bunch of disposable cash on hand, will make it impossible to continue to game with the habits I have at that price point. I won't put down $400 on a system that doesn't let me play games the way I want to play them, and I'm sure a lot of people would rather put that much money somewhere else.

And people said I was stupid for looking forward to the WiiU.

What about when friends want to let someone else play their game? I lend my sister my copy of Brawl all the time. My good friend lent me the first two Assassin's Creed games (and then I went and bought Brotherhood). Businesses like Gamefly would not be happy with something like this, considering it goes against their entire business model. And as someone who regularly rents games, this pisses me off as well.

Honestly, as Microsoft (and Sony to a lesser extent) continues to try and make their console more and more of a heavily restricted gaming PC, sooner or later people are going to just decide to get a gaming PC. The entire point of console gaming is to be convenient. FOR THE CONSUMER. Here's hoping Sony doesn't do something as stupid, or I'll be going only with Nintendo again next generation.

is this really legal? this kind of answer is possibly the worst possible response to a perfectly legal Market. USED GAMES IS NOT PIRACY.

it just seems to be that these Devs are just whiny bitches..

Way to miss the point, Volition.

Gamers aren't out to "get you", hell, we're not even out to actively hurt you. We've proven time and time again that we'll buy a game that we feel is worth it. But let's face it, a lot of those games, yours included, aren't worth 60€ or more. They just aren't, period. It's a sad fact, but what are you going to do about it?

Well, Steam has been great for us. Sales have gone up, the games have sold and, best of all, the prices are reasonable and constantly changing. And with the number of sales that they have going on almost all the time, it makes sense to buy a game from Steam. After all, no ridiculous DRM and it's yours forever. That's a deal I'll get behind any day.

But on consoles, especially in Europe, Scandinavia and the Nordic countries? It's bullshit year after year. Prices go up, game selections go down and getting anything worthwhile for a reasonable price from either Xbox Live or PSN is a crapshoot. 70€ for the new Halo title? I'm sorry, I'm calling bullshit on that with the largest megaphone I can find.

If you want to get rid of the used gaming market, give gamers a reason to. Don't treat us like criminals or "the enemy", because doing so will just make it damn certain that we will become that - just to spite you and your ridiculous, broken and archaic methods.

Fuck you, Volition, that's not how a free market works. If someone buys something they have the right to sell it again to whomever they wish. I don't think the industry's going to fall apart just because of people buying used.

I don't even buy used games (I like having my own, fresh copy of things and it supports the developer), but I wouldn't buy a console which banned used games, simply on principle. I don't want to support a company that would fuck over its own customers like that.

Chances are they'll move to digital only, and then not provide a way to move the game's rights around. As far as I know, Steam is the only service to let you sell your digital games.

Anyway, if a console does do that, I hope to hell that it fails so utterly that in 50 years it will go down as "worst electronic device of the century"/"Why Microsoft is bankrupt".

I wonder if developers have ever considered lowering their budgets? Stupid asses.

Extra Credits covered this pretty well, I feel. It's not the customers that are screwing the publishers and developers over, it's GameStop. They're effectively punishing customers by pulling shit like this while mixing up their business model quite a bit probably would get them more money and more good-will from their customers.

Up in arms for a little while?

No, more like firebombing Microsoft until the agree to do something about it.

Though honestly, this whole rumor is just stupid. There is no way in HELL that Microsoft would do that as it doesn't directly benefit them in a large way and would hurt tem FAR worse than any good things it did.

You know what's ironic about this thread? I bought and really enjoyed Saints Row 2. I was going to buy Saints Row The Third full-price. But now? F*ck Volition--I'm not paying more than five bucks for their crap, and I'm certainly not buying it on steam like I originally intended. I refuse to support a dev that will treat me like this. I have CONSUMER RIGHTS, and I'm not going to give them up without a fight.

I have never payed more than thirty bucks for a game. Every game I've gotten new, I've gotten as a gift. This was because I'm 19 years old--I can't afford $60 per game. I've supported the developer by buying games on Steam, especially during Steam sales. I don't have much cash, but I'll use it to support good games.

But when Volition acts like a spoiled brat, I have to show my outrage somehow. Congratulations, Volition. Let this post be evidence of how you lost a new game sale because you were angry about that consumer buying your last game used.

No other industry gets into hissy fits over used sales. What makes games so different. I dont want to buy a licence to a game i want to buy a game. If I pay for it then so long as i dont break the law what happens next should be up to me. But no apparently its still theirs. This is just DRM on the consoles and it is total bull. I dont buy many used games and i rarely trade in games worth keeping even if im not going to play them again. Thats just me and I cant speak for others but the concept of being licenced a game is whats most worrying.

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