Biggest plot holes in games

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Legion:
Fallout 3 original ending is the worst one that I have ever encountered.

Sniper Team 4:

Why is the Didact in Halo 4 doing what he's doing? The Flood has been destroyed. He has no reason to declare war on humanity.

in reference to Fallout 3: I thought once you went in, you couldn't get out anyways? Like it was in total lock down.

Yes he does, because humanity were at war with the Forerunners for a millennia before the Forerunners had even heard of the flood. They were at war because the Forerunners hold the 'Mantle', but humanity are the ones who are naturally supposed to be in charge of it. He is unwilling to relinquish control over to the humans and plans to destroy them rather than let them have it.

His hatred of them has nothing to do with the flood whatsoever.

Marik Bentusi:
BioShock: Just why did Fontaine pull of his elaborate scheme with the protagonist instead of bunkering him somewhere close? It just adds a crapton of unnecessary complications not only in theory, but also practically as it turns out his creation really does backfire on him.
I'd usually just handwave it, but add to that Fontaine's already laughable Saturday Morning Mustache-Twirling Doctor Evilstein Villain Out For World Domination spiel and the fact the whole farce was really just written to allow for the character freedom plot twist, I can't help but be disgusted at the terrible writing beneath and think of the plot hole as an irredeemably deep one.

Because Jack was a back-up plan, not his main one. He used him in case everything went wrong, which it just so happened to do. He couldn't keep him alive and in Rapture because Ryan could have easily discovered him, which would ruin the point of him being an ace up his sleeve.

Fontaine also did not want world domination, he wanted to control the city. He wasn't supposed to be evil, he was supposed to be greedy and ruthless.

J Tyran:

Devoneaux:
you're just imagining up what happened to fill in an unanswered question. It still doesn't account for why they even needed ground based vehicles in the first place when airborne shuttles are far more useful in every way.

it was an answer to a question you cooked up, you decided they had to have been dropped off by a starship or they had no way of being on Mars before the attack on the base. Sure my answer was conjecture but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to realize that because they had land vehicles that they obviously drove there. If they did have a spaceship you would think "oh they flew there" so the same applies to the land vehicles. The attack was in the planning for a while with Dr Eva being planted as an insider, so being prepared for the attack and waiting nearby within driving distance is no great leap either.

Your question was conjecture but my answer was based on observation.

Devoneaux:
Edit: as for your third point, I never said they HAD to use the stairs, just have a scene where Anderson goes to the door tries to open it and it jams or breaks. That simple. It just needed to be explained or shown why the simplest solution wasn't taken first. I never said you had to pick between awesome set pieces and making sense. Had the writing staff been competent they could have accomplished both.

Edit Edit: come to think of it, having Shepard running through the interior as it shakes and lights flicker and doors explode with fire, people shouting and panicking as cielings and floors collapse and people die would have probably been way more intense and personal. Sure the dreadnought exploding was neat, but it was far from what i'd call dramatic. Watching officers struggle to survive the invasion maybe a few of them break down and huddle in corners, crying to themselves as husks crawl in through holes blasted into the building close in around them. THAT would have been awesome.

So what you really meant to say was "I didn't like the intro sequence and think it should have been different instead of saying "they didn't use the stairs, what a terrible plot hole!"

Btw I went back and checked, the door was actually destroyed not just blocked or jammed. The entire back wall is tangled metal and rubble.

I never said once that they HAD to come off starships, I asked an "If then" question that branched off from my first question "How did they get here and why?" So no it's not invented.

As for the entire intro? No I don't care for it as a whole, I find it rather ham fisted, but that's a matter of opinion. what was not was what I found illogical with how we got on the roof in the first place (along with a bunch of other mostly little things that don't make too much sense either). As for the door being completely broken, do you know when we see this? I would like to go and check this myself.

Devoneaux:
I never said once that they HAD to come off starships, I asked an "If then" question that branched off from my first question "How did they get here and why?" So no it's not invented.

The answer to the question "how did Cerberus get there" is answered, the vehicles got them there.

Devoneaux:
As for the entire intro? No I don't care for it as a whole, I find it rather ham fisted, but that's a matter of opinion.

Nothing wrong with not liking it at all, like you say its a matter of opinion. Where you went wrong is trying to pass something subjective off as objective by saying its a plot hole.

Devoneaux:
As for the door being completely broken, do you know when we see this? I would like to go and check this myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jrACow5jnfE#t=584s*

As you can clearly see the back wall behind Shepard is completely covered in metal and rubble.

Edit
*My god what have I done? Here it comes....... "why is Ashleys armour blue? Why where there three members of the Alliance on the council? Why was a Marine yelling in into the transmission?............"

Devoneaux:

Well if that's the case, why didn't they use those stealth ships to attack the STG base later?

They were... somewhere else...
My response was a bit tongue in cheek i was agreeing with you that it's ridiculous that they have batallion there and all it showed up for pickup was a Kodiak.

Suncatcher:

See, that's just not true. The ending itself is dependent on two factors: your color choice and how much grinding you did in multiplayer.

cute, but both of those things are contained in ME3

Events up until that moment are influenced by hundreds of factors from the previous games; right off the top of my head there's treatment of Conrad Verner,

Who is only present in one scene of the game.
And simply doesn't appear if you didn't treat him well enough.
D-

conversations with Tali and Legion,

All very questionable, the only time I failed to get peace was the one time I gave Legion to Cerberus AND let Tali die on the Suicide mission.

But hardly any of the plot points changed for that run of missions. The Legion VI was the most frustrating part of that game.

saving or abandoning the original Council

Absolutely incorrect.
And I'm ashamed of you for even trying to defend this one.
The new Council was a literal Carbon Copy of the first Council.
Except the Turian and the Asari switched motivations and the Salarian was a girl now

But it didn't effect any of their interactions with themselves or Udina or Shepard. It doesn't effect the Content of the missions they send you on, It doesn't effect the FUCKING ORDER of the missions they send you on.

The Old Council doesn't seem to remember you saved their lives 3 years ago until you save them again.
The New Council doesn't divert to Udina's opinion because he's the most senior councilor.

It's always the Turian who comes to you first
It's always the Salarian who Cerberus tries to assassinate
and it's always the Asari who asks for your help after it's too late

The old Council's Truian should never have come to you first because he hated humanity (As evidenced by every comm chat you had with him in ME1)
and the old Asari would have never withheld support for so long because she's more supportive of humanity and understands that the Asari aren't a militaristic people.

protecting Kirrahe on Virmire

Fair enough. That only comes up if Thane died, but fair enough.

dealing with Wrex's tantrum at the cloning facility

I suppose, but ultimately it only effects your likeliness of convincing Mordin not to kill himself.
And even if you do convince Mordin not to die on Tuchanka you never speak to him again so... there's that.
But true enough.

sparing the Rachni queen,

Ha...Ha hahahahaha.
You think that mattered?! HAHAHA
Oh, great.
I spared the Rachnai Queen. Oh no they got indoctrinated again!
I killed the Rachnai Queen. Oh no! They magically came back to life (Cloned...Cloned from what? Magic!) and the Reapers Indoctrinated them again!

That makes SUCH a big difference to the plot.
And yes I know that if you killed her in ME1 and saved her in ME3 your numbers go down instead of up. But the only thing the numbers effect are a 3 second breath scene. (Which is another plot hole if the Citadel blew up and crashed back to Earth Shepard's corpse would have dissolved on reentry. But that's not important)

how many of the Asari Matriarch's writings you gathered while chasing Saren...

Huh, Explain this one to me.

Granted, many of these things have outcomes that seem roughly equivalent on the face, since it's just not feasible to make an entirely different game for every possible combination of factors

Really? Because After I finished Mass Effect 3 I sat down in a fit of rage and wrote one.
I'm not programing gameplay or designing levels or anything but I wrote a script that takes into account every combination of choices you can make in the first 2 games.
When it comes right down to it there aren't that many factors you have to take into account.

As far as broad strokes go there's
Did you save the Rachnai Queen
Did you save Wrex
Did you save Kerrhie
Kaiden/Ashley
Did you give Tali the Data
Did you let Garrus kill Hart
Did you find Wrex's armor
Did you save Shiala on Ferros/or destroy the colony
Did Anderson punch Udina/ or hack the terminal
Save/kill the Council
Anderson/Udina

Were you Paragon or Renegade with the Illusive Man
Did you keep or destroy the Collector base
Did you promote or undermine Aria on Omega
How did you deal with Malen and his data
Did you get Tali Exiled
Did you take Legion on the Flotilla
Did you out Tali's father's experiments
Did you let Garrus shoot Sodonis
Did you save Samara or Morinth
Did you give Legion to Cerberus
Did you rewrite or destroy the Heretics
Did you cheat on your love interest
DLC: Did you destroy Kasumi's data. (That is unbelievably important considering what it turned out to be.)
Did you shut down Overlord
Who survived the suicide mission.
Tier 1: Tali, Legion, Mordin, Garrus
Tier 2: Miranda, Samara/Morinth, Kasumi, Thane, Jack
Tier 3: Everyone else.

Outside of who died on the suicide mission there are only 50 possible outcomes you have to consider.
Bioware has a team of writers who do nothing but write. You'd think they could handle taking into account 50 plot points.

you get husk'd rachni as enemies whether or not you spared the queen because that's a big part of the game design that they can't work around in every single encounter, and so the mission looks awfully similar whether you're revisiting the queen you let loose earlier or meeting the clone of her that the Reapers whipped up. But when you look at the actual results? A genuine queen that you free twice and introduce to the Council races becomes a valuable part of the war effort, and is well on her way to reestablishing her once-extinct race in the galaxy but on peaceful terms. The clone, if allowed to live, just fucks shit up and murders people.

That would be the case if any of the scenes you mentioned existed. You save the queen, your numbers go up.
You save the clone, your numbers go down and you get a strongly worded letter from Hackett.
The Queen never meets with the Council, and the Council never acknowledges the existence of the Queen

And that's the problem. They shifted focus from emotions and morals to numbers. So believe it or not there is a proper way to play the game and that's all about which path gets your numbers higher

"As much as I complain I have an important job to do here."
That's not something you say before you quit.
And running away from obligation doesn't suit Anderson's character.

No. It's something that you say before you get down to your important business and get shit done, rather than something you say before you sit on your ass trading empty pleasantries with politicals and watch the world burn around you. He didn't quit being a Councilor because it was hard, or because he hated it, he quit so he could actually do his damn job as an Admiral.

Important job to do HERE
HERE
As in on the Citadel.
In ME2 Anderson gave no inclination that he was gearing up to quit his position.

Bioware thought their story about the Cerberus coup was SO FUCKING COOL that they sooner retcon the most important decision you made in the series than allow some people the possibility to miss it.

Throughout Mass Effect 2 you were allowed to decide whether you agreed with Cerberus or not.
If as you think is, was, and forever will be "evil" that effectively makes anyone who played Renegade in ME2 canonically incorrect. Basically rewriting the Renegade personality into the "Stupid Shepard"

Not stupid. Cynical. Pragmatic. Willing to accept collateral damage as long as the greater good is served. And willing to work with people who are clearly evil because he can't accomplish what he needs alone and the proper authorities are ignoring the problem. In short, how Renegade Shepard always has been. A good man can work with an evil one without being an idiot so long as their goals align, but it doesn't make the evil man good.

Think about what you just said.
If Shepard knew that TIM and by extension Cerberus is was and forever will be evil, why in the hell did s/he give TIM the Collector base?
At that point there's no reason to keep up the fecad of partnership. You're literally one button push away from ending the conflict there and now, EVERYONE of your squad is urging you not to give the base to Cerberus. But Shepard does it anyway.

If, as you suggest, Shepard knew Cerberus was evil the whole time and was just going to turn around and stab him/her in the back it's pretty god damn stupid to give the most advanced technology humans have ever seen to that guy.

If, as I suggest, during the writing process of Mass Effect 2 Cerberus was intended to be a morally grey organization, the morally grey Renegade Shepard could trust the Illusive Man with out being stupid. Then during the writing process of ME3 Bioware decides to shit all over that idea because they ran out of ink in their printers or what ever.

One of the games is poorly written, I choose to believe it's the one with more plot holes than actual plot, and the narrative that revolves around the mother of all Dues Ex Machnias.

everything they're doing in ME3 disagrees with their MO (Which is to help humanity)
Setting up a fake refugee camp so they can experiment on the very humans they're trying to protect is off...
Attacking Alliance bases for... reasons?
They must be indoctrinated... but they aren't because they were investing all their resources into trying to figure out how indoctrination works so they could use it against the Reapers. And if the Reapers were controlling their brains why would they let them do that? So one of those things is a plot hole

When the Reapers want an intelligent, creative minion instead of a mindless pawn they can't just take direct control of his brain. Sovereign never puppetted Saren until he was already dead. Until then he made subtler changes, whispering and tweaking until Saren was just as brilliant as he always was, but unable to conceive of the Reapers being unsuccessful and totally convinced that by serving the Reapers he was saving his race, allowing the Turians to live as slaves instead of being wiped out. And all along, Saren was doing his own research into Indoctrination and convincing himself that he was safe, himself, in control. It would be the same with TIM; Harbinger wouldn't just yell 'kill all humans' when he could whisper about gaining the power to make humanity the rulers of the galaxy, as long as he was willing to take a few acceptable losses along the way. It's not much of a stretch, Cerberus was already killing humans by the dozens if not hundreds in their experiments you interrupted in the first game, because they believed that the gains from those experiments would save millions or give them power over aliens.

Another thing that always bugged me about TIM's indoctrination is how it happened. It would make sense if you gave him the collector base, but if you didn't? He came across as smart in ME2. I doubt he would give himself the opportunity to get indoctrinated. (Don't talk about the terminal on Cronos Station) What you said has merit, but TIM getting indoctrinated doesn't float on principle for me.

Suncatcher:
What doesn't really make sense is using Earth for the ending, or trying to rally the galaxy to take back your planet specifically instead of generally beating back Reaper forces, but nothing in the ending and little in the core plot makes sense.

Respectfully, I would like to disagree. It's been established that Harbinger seems to be the one whom is pulling the strings in the battle, so to then have the catalyst moved to Earth to be watched under his supervision makes sense when Shepard had done the unimaginable and truly rallied the majority of the galaxy. While the initial 'lets rally the galaxy to save Earth' definately doesn't make sense, as there are the same amount of Reaper's on other planets (That is until the ending), so I agree with you there. There is a spectacular line in the mission where you go to the Asari homeworld and fight with the comandos. During the battle, when you convince the commanding officer to hold the line she yells out "Let the galaxy know that the war was won on *insert Asari homeworld name here*". This shows how each species feels as though the attack is very personal, and that because Shepard, the guy who has been kicking ass before they realised there really was an ass that needed kicking, told them that their planet may hold the key to the destruction of the Reapers, it is clear that that just bolstered their belief that something about them made them more important than other species. I feel that it shows that during an intense moment of impossible odds, people can become closed minded and believe that the problem is only effecting them and no one else. Then, when Shepard reveals the key to winning, and that it's on Earth, everyone whom pledged their alliance (after being saved from the impossible odds) are fully prepared to go to this one planet.

Valid point.

Wouldn't that make more of a case against why the whole war came down to the battle for Earth?
If every species is operating on closed minded nationalism why would any of them give a toss and a half about what happens to Earth?

If your planet is dying wouldn't you pull all foreign support before pulling domestic support? Even if you weren't a nationalist.
It all just seems like a bad plot device to me. The whole galaxy is rallying behind Earth! You should feel inspired because you live on Earth!

Which brings to mind another plot hole (For me anyway) Shepard's never been to Earth before.
(My Shepard) She was born on a colony that got attacked by Batarians, then she joined the navy and almost got eaten by a Thresher Maw. Nowhere in her back story has she ever been on Earth. Every time she referred to Earth as "Home" I got more and more turned off by the fact that Bioware refused to take into account one of 3 possible backgrounds.

Even If you're an Earth-born Shepard, your parents abandoned you and you joined a gang, why do you want to save Earth so bad? I understand needing to stop the Reapers but all the "Earth" stuff got on my nerves.

IronMit:
how is me killing people increasing rats significantly?i'm just one man and the city is full of crime and authorities killing casually. Does my killing make that much of a difference?
Increased guards and rats (if we must keep the rats) should be 2 different mechanics..especially since i can kill someone and make them explode into dust. or kill weepers that rats don't feed on and authorities wouldn't care about.
Weird mechanic

I think it's because you kill guards, who can't get rid of corpses of the dead, which draws in more rats, because they, too, are dead.
Plus, I think it was established in Tales from Dunwall that the rats are caused by powers given to someone by the Outsider. It's possible that death and chaos simply create more of them (in a similar way to Corvo summoning them; ie the Chaos literally creates new rats).

OT: On the subject of Dishonored; the actual premise of the plot. How can the guards be so far away that none of them see the teleporting assassins, but so near by that the arrive in the time it takes Corvo to crawl over to Jessamine?
How did all of them know to run over to Jessamine with their swords drawn, yet not hear the sounds of swordfighting? And if they did hear the fighting, why did none of them question the fact that Corvo is the only armed person there?
What was their explanation for the fact that Emily literally vanished into thin air?
And who did send the guards away? The Spymaster? Why isn't he the primary suspect? I think 'sending the guards away right before the Empress is killed' makes you more of a suspect than 'being near the Empress' body'.

TrilbyWill:

I think it's because you kill guards, who can't get rid of corpses of the dead, which draws in more rats, because they, too, are dead.
Plus, I think it was established in Tales from Dunwall that the rats are caused by powers given to someone by the Outsider. It's possible that death and chaos simply create more of them (in a similar way to Corvo summoning them; ie the Chaos literally creates new rats).

OT: On the subject of Dishonored; the actual premise of the plot. How can the guards be so far away that none of them see the teleporting assassins, but so near by that the arrive in the time it takes Corvo to crawl over to Jessamine?
How did all of them know to run over to Jessamine with their swords drawn, yet not hear the sounds of swordfighting? And if they did hear the fighting, why did none of them question the fact that Corvo is the only armed person there?
What was their explanation for the fact that Emily literally vanished into thin air?
And who did send the guards away? The Spymaster? Why isn't he the primary suspect? I think 'sending the guards away right before the Empress is killed' makes you more of a suspect than 'being near the Empress' body'.

I did change my mind and figured it could make sense. Someone also mentioned that killing civilians and guards allows the weepers and rats to creep into parts of the city as they are not there to contain them.
However killing weepers also increases chaos? surely it should reduce chaos. Rat's don't even eat weepers. So this leads me back to my first conclusion that chaos is an overly simplistic mechanic.

However gameplay actually affecting the world is much needed innovation - even if it's been done before. Making an actual dialogue decision that affects stuff is cool in rpg's but nothing can beat unscripted gameplay decisions. Hopefully they will build on this

J Tyran:

Devoneaux:
I never said once that they HAD to come off starships, I asked an "If then" question that branched off from my first question "How did they get here and why?" So no it's not invented.

The answer to the question "how did Cerberus get there" is answered, the vehicles got them there.

Devoneaux:
As for the entire intro? No I don't care for it as a whole, I find it rather ham fisted, but that's a matter of opinion.

Nothing wrong with not liking it at all, like you say its a matter of opinion. Where you went wrong is trying to pass something subjective off as objective by saying its a plot hole.

Devoneaux:
As for the door being completely broken, do you know when we see this? I would like to go and check this myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jrACow5jnfE#t=584s*

As you can clearly see the back wall behind Shepard is completely covered in metal and rubble.

Edit
*My god what have I done? Here it comes....... "why is Ashleys armour blue? Why where there three members of the Alliance on the council? Why was a Marine yelling in into the transmission?............"

No no, not "How did cerburus get there?" "How did their vehicles get there, and why use them when you have perfectly good shuttles?"

Still seeing as my main point in this argument is defeated i'll surrender the point.
Edit: To be perfectly honest I never understood why her armor was colored to begin with. Seems kinda silly really.

At any rate if I really wanted to nitpick the beginning to death I could take it several steps further: Why is Ashley taking orders from the earth defense committee? What exactly is she doing here? What is this building that combines military headquarters, a place for keeping people under house arrest, and courthouse all in a highrise building? Where is this building specifically? It's kinda-sorta-not-really-implied that it's New York like an hour later but I dunno.

If Shepard was being kept basically as a prisoner, why didn't they keep him in Arturus Station where the alliance is actually centered? How did the nightmare kid get from the top of one building into the ducts of this one? Why are the reapers shooting at random defenseless buildings like this is some godzilla movie? ect. The list goes on into nitpicks of varying severity, you get the idea.

TrilbyWill:
OT: On the subject of Dishonored; the actual premise of the plot. How can the guards be so far away that none of them see the teleporting assassins, but so near by that the arrive in the time it takes Corvo to crawl over to Jessamine?
How did all of them know to run over to Jessamine with their swords drawn, yet not hear the sounds of swordfighting? And if they did hear the fighting, why did none of them question the fact that Corvo is the only armed person there?
What was their explanation for the fact that Emily literally vanished into thin air?
And who did send the guards away? The Spymaster? Why isn't he the primary suspect? I think 'sending the guards away right before the Empress is killed' makes you more of a suspect than 'being near the Empress' body'.

The same way you get past guards while teleporting? Guards do not see the teleporting. When you teleport, you're only seen where you were and where you stop.

The assassins were on the roof, the same roof you can walk unseen when you infiltrate the place, and (I assume) are only heard when the fighting starts. You hack off the ones before you and after a few kills an assassin arrives who "paralyzes" (Tethers) you and Daud or another assassin stops time. Guards may be running towards the Empress, but since time is stopped, they are not getting there particularly fast. The Spymaster ordered the guards away to allow Corvo some private time with the Empress, it is established that Corvo is her personal bodyguard and close to her. There would be no reason to believe, when Corvo returns from a long journey with an important message, that he would hurt the Empress.

As to why guards do not question where Emily is or why Corvo is the only one armed, because maybe it's not the guard's duty to question but to obey? The Spymaster would have outranked them easily and it is his commands that count. Also, it is not unreasonable to imprison the person who is holding the dead Empress. There is nobody else there to blame. Corvo is naturally "questioned" later but that didn't do him much good.

Protocol95:

Rawne1980:
Dragon Age 2.

All the way through it you get drummed with "Mages are good .... Templars are bad".

Yet all the way through it the Templars are helpful and polite and the Mages are trying to eat my face.....

Kind of hard to follow a plot and take it seriously when it doesn't know what the fuck it's doing itself. In fact, the Templars don't turn "bad" until the very end and even then it's only 1 person .... who turns bad because of a corrupt sword .... made from metal Hawke found.

WHO WRITES THIS SHIT.

That is inaccurate. The game attempts to say "Some mages are good, some are bad and the same goes with templars". Not every mage in the game tries to kill you or someone else or just genreally be a jerk. For example Feynriel is an unfortunate apostate who will only do something bad if you indulged in some really horrible Video Game Cruelty Potential. For the templars there are a quite a few templars who are unabigiously evil. Take Ser Alrik, the templar who wanted to make all mages tranquil, which is considered by many of them a fate worse than death.

I can see what he means though, you are pushed this idea that mages are unfairly downtrodden and yet if I remember rightly the majority of them DO resort to blood magic and demons when cornered. Hell, you can even use blood magic as Hawke.

I certainly remember fighting more blood mages than evil templars in that game.

It's a very strange juxtoposition to the story you are offered and you end up rolling your eyes at it at least, I did. How can you defend your actions moving against the templars when all the mages that you try and help do exactly what the templars said they would do and put everyone in danger. Good and evil really isn't the issue in the end. It's like trying to argue against putting down a dog the authorities say will savage everyone and then you try and save it and it indeed goes and savages everyone.

It makes you feel really stupid and naive.

Moonlight Butterfly:

Protocol95:

Rawne1980:
Dragon Age 2.

All the way through it you get drummed with "Mages are good .... Templars are bad".

Yet all the way through it the Templars are helpful and polite and the Mages are trying to eat my face.....

Kind of hard to follow a plot and take it seriously when it doesn't know what the fuck it's doing itself. In fact, the Templars don't turn "bad" until the very end and even then it's only 1 person .... who turns bad because of a corrupt sword .... made from metal Hawke found.

WHO WRITES THIS SHIT.

That is inaccurate. The game attempts to say "Some mages are good, some are bad and the same goes with templars". Not every mage in the game tries to kill you or someone else or just genreally be a jerk. For example Feynriel is an unfortunate apostate who will only do something bad if you indulged in some really horrible Video Game Cruelty Potential. For the templars there are a quite a few templars who are unabigiously evil. Take Ser Alrik, the templar who wanted to make all mages tranquil, which is considered by many of them a fate worse than death.

I can see what he means though, you are pushed this idea that mages are unfairly downtrodden and yet if I remember rightly the majority of them DO resort to blood magic and demons when cornered. Hell, you can even use blood magic as Hawke.

I certainly remember fighting more blood mages than evil templars in that game.

It's a very strange juxtoposition to the story you are offered and you end up rolling your eyes at it at least, I did. How can you defend your actions moving against the templars when all the mages that you try and help do exactly what the templars said they would do and put everyone in danger. Good and evil really isn't the issue in the end. It's like trying to argue against putting down a dog the authorities say will savage everyone and then you try and save it and it indeed goes and savages everyone.

It makes you feel really stupid and naive.

Well you could argue that "This Hawke is this character and will behave this way regardless of what I think." But...I don't think that's the angle Bioware has been going for this past decade.

Mikeyfell:
-snop-

Okay, skipping past the parts that are just ignoring what I said or making emotional outbursts...

how many of the Asari Matriarch's writings you gathered while chasing Saren...

Huh, Explain this one to me.

It's a tiny thing, in that same scene with Verner. Hardly worth mentioning, but it does change the story.

Granted, many of these things have outcomes that seem roughly equivalent on the face, since it's just not feasible to make an entirely different game for every possible combination of factors

Really? Because After I finished Mass Effect 3 I sat down in a fit of rage and wrote one.
I'm not programing gameplay or designing levels or anything but I wrote a script that takes into account every combination of choices you can make in the first 2 games.

Yeah, a script is easy. But just as a simple example, if the Ravagers were removed from the game by killing the Rachni queen in the first game? Every single level that included them needs to be reworked and rebalanced. The quest in the tunnels no longer exists for half of the pcs, so suddenly you have to allow for a wide range of levels of Shepard in every mission after that because of lost exp, and half your your players are going to be bitching about the game being too long or too short unless you make some equivalent mission that only happens if there aren't rachni around for some reason. Which would increase production costs by a significant amount and make the story even more nonsensical.

When it comes right down to it there aren't that many factors you have to take into account... there are only 50 possible outcomes you have to consider.

And if you make the basic structure of the game different for each one, that's 50 different full length AAA games you need to make. With all the rage over day 1 DLC, do you really think anyone would be willing to pay the several hundreds of dollars per copy required to recoup those costs?

That would be the case if any of the scenes you mentioned existed. You save the queen, your numbers go up.
You save the clone, your numbers go down and you get a strongly worded letter from Hackett.

Did you actually read any of the text in the game? Because everything in the game is a part of the story, and if you don't pay attention to anything without a big shiny cutscene you're missing much of the plot and can't really contribute to a story discussion.

If Shepard knew that TIM and by extension Cerberus is was and forever will be evil, why in the hell did s/he give TIM the Collector base?

That base was full of tech which could be used against the Reapers. For all you knew, it was the only way to catch up the crippling technological disadvantage in time to save the galaxy. That wasn't a question of whether or not you liked Cerberus, it was a question of whether you were willing to take the risk of giving that resource to someone you knew was evil but currently working on the right side, or if you would destroy that threat at the cost of being less prepared for the real invasion.

Leonardo Chaves:

Devoneaux:

Well if that's the case, why didn't they use those stealth ships to attack the STG base later?

They were... somewhere else...
My response was a bit tongue in cheek i was agreeing with you that it's ridiculous that they have batallion there and all it showed up for pickup was a Kodiak.

I guess they planned on using those trucks, but it still begs the question of why use three or four trucks but then only one shuttle when they could have just used only shuttles.

Jack Rascal:
The same way you get past guards while teleporting? Guards do not see the teleporting. When you teleport, you're only seen where you were and where you stop.

I meant them seeing the assassins when they stop, but I could have made that clearer, because as I remember it, the place where at least one assassin stops is in decent view of at least one guard. May be mis-remembering.

Daud or another assassin stops time. Guards may be running towards the Empress, but since time is stopped, they are not getting there particularly fast.

Did he? I must not have realised that. Guess that explains that.

The Spymaster ordered the guards away to allow Corvo some private time with the Empress, it is established that Corvo is her personal bodyguard and close to her.

I still don't see why he would need to send away the guards for that reason. Only one of them seems to be in a position to actually see Corvo and the Empress, and he isn't within earshot (you can't hear the Empress and the Spymaster until you get fairly close to them). Not really going to be intruding on a private conversation.

As to why guards do not question where Emily is or why Corvo is the only one armed, because maybe it's not the guard's duty to question but to obey? The Spymaster would have outranked them easily and it is his commands that count.

I guess so. Still, you'd expect one of them to point out that they heard a sword fight, and there's nobody else there. Just because they need to follow the Spymaster's orders, doesn't mean they aren't going to mention their suspicions to other guards, or people like Curnow.

Also, it is not unreasonable to imprison the person who is holding the dead Empress. There is nobody else there to blame. Corvo is naturally "questioned" later but that didn't do him much good.

I feel that it's a bit unreasonable to immediately blame him before any sort of investigation when
1) You heard swordfighting, and probably gunshots, and there's nobody else there,
2) you're also accusing this person of kidnapping (it's hard to lead a small child off somewhere when you're holding a dying woman in your arms) and,
3) said person is a good friend and bodyguard to the victim, therefore is obviously going to run to her side in her dying moments.

Maybe I'm just overthinking some parts, and not thinking about others.

Devoneaux:

Denamic:
Some things are never explained. Some things seem to go against common sense. Why don't they turn off the New You things in Borderlands? I dunno. Reasons.

Those are not plot holes. Plot holes are logical impossibilities. Like a character being somewhere when they're supposedly currently being elsewhere, or a gun working when it was out of ammo 4 sentences ago.

Or like characters taking a more dangerous longer path for no explained reason when there's a nice safe path readily available.

I just said things like that aren't plot holes.
Stupid, probably, but not plot holes.

Again, unexplained things and things that seem to go against common sense are not plot holes.

In XCOM:EU, why the hell am I the only faction in the world that seems to actually fight the aliens? Why do I have to pay for all these things that I have to buy, who are these assholes that think gee these guys are the last hope for humanity but i still need to make a profit? Why are do countries back out of the project if I don't do a good job, I am literally the only people fighting and your just going to refuse my help?

Judgement101:
ALL OF ULTIMA 9!
"What's a Paladin?"................the creators need to take a serious look at their games before they release it.

"You knowledge of the land will be great!"

You can get so many plot holes just from that one statement.

Suncatcher:

If we assume that the Reapers are just VIs, acting on their programming instead of their own drive, we have to assume that Sovereign was programmed not only toward bluster and condescension in conversation, but also to deliberately lie about their origins ('we have no beginning or ending' is a long way from 'we were built to kill you a few million years ago'). Sovereign alone, in the single conversation you have with him and the one battle we see, displays more personality than any other machine in the series which isn't established to have true AI, emotions and all. And it makes little sense to program him to act that way, with his attention-grabbing tactics and hammy, provocative dialogue, since his duty was to stay hidden among the younger races and stand watch for millenia at a time rather than to intimidate or subjugate. Then we look at the final battle of the first game at the Citadel, and I can't see any way to classify that other than an emotional response or monumentally shitty programming. He had won the war. There was not enough firepower in the entire system to get through his shields and most of the fleet standing against him was shredded. His only possible loss conditions when he entered that fight were if the Citadel's arms had closed before he got inside (because the thing's pretty much indestructible) or if the entirety of the galaxy had united against him, and neither of those had happened or had any real chance of happening. He wasn't desperately reacting in order to take control immediately, because it didn't matter if you had command of the Citadel for a few minutes once he was on the tower. He could have wiped out the remaining ships before engaging you, he could have irradiated you from the outside, whatever, but instead he chose to reanimate his primary servant for a second round of personal scale combat with you because if you killed his Champion, no matter who was in control at the end of the day, a human had beaten him. And that was something he could not accept or allow. And when he lost round two, the death of his avatar was enough of a distraction to lower his shields and allow a simple frigate the killing blow.
Basically, either Sovereign had emotions which affected his choices more than calm logic, his programmer wanted to simulate pride, anger, deception, and overconfidence for no good reason, or his code was so stupid as to force him to risk everything in order to avoid a ten minute delay in a 50,000 year cycle.

I probably should have been more specific. I never meant to imply that I thought the Reapers were VI's, my belief was that the Reapers were AI's, however were restricted by some base programming measures that guided them. I agree with you that he was arrogant and quite well developed, however cleverbot can be arrogant and have some depth, and that program is just a VI. Again, HUUUUUUGE stretch there, but it's just my opinion and it worked for me and caused me to see no problem with the ending.

Suncatcher:
What doesn't really make sense is using Earth for the ending, or trying to rally the galaxy to take back your planet specifically instead of generally beating back Reaper forces, but nothing in the ending and little in the core plot makes sense.

(lost the quote link, my comment down below)
Respectfully, I would like to disagree. It's been established that Harbinger seems to be the one whom is pulling the strings in the battle, so to then have the catalyst moved to Earth to be watched under his supervision makes sense when Shepard had done the unimaginable and truly rallied the majority of the galaxy. While the initial 'lets rally the galaxy to save Earth' definately doesn't make sense, as there are the same amount of Reaper's on other planets (That is until the ending), so I agree with you there. There is a spectacular line in the mission where you go to the Asari homeworld and fight with the comandos. During the battle, when you convince the commanding officer to hold the line she yells out "Let the galaxy know that the war was won on *insert Asari homeworld name here*". This shows how each species feels as though the attack is very personal, and that because Shepard, the guy who has been kicking ass before they realised there really was an ass that needed kicking, told them that their planet may hold the key to the destruction of the Reapers, it is clear that that just bolstered their belief that something about them made them more important than other species. I feel that it shows that during an intense moment of impossible odds, people can become closed minded and believe that the problem is only effecting them and no one else. Then, when Shepard reveals the key to winning, and that it's on Earth, everyone whom pledged their alliance (after being saved from the impossible odds) are fully prepared to go to this one planet. [/quote]

Suncatcher:

Valid point.

Thank you.

Suncatcher:

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have gone quite so far there. And for the record, I didn't think they rushed things, have no problem with day 1 DLC, and definitely never joined any of those stupid petitions trying to force them to change the game.

You have my full respect.

Suncatcher:

But EA is a company infamous for, among other things, executive meddling. And the ending, with all its breaks in canon and themes, looks to me like nothing but one guy at the top of a command structure taking control away from the team who had been writing the rest of the series, including 90% of the third game. And then I look at the credits, and the former lead writer, who made so many magnificent games for Bioware before they were assimilated and who built up the universe of Mass Effect from scratch, is conspicuously absent. Given that evidence, is there a more likely theory than that the publisher caused (directly or due to dissatisfaction with other company policies) a change in staff which resulted in the game being released with a small but vital portion being written by an idiot? I hadn't heard anything about Casey Hudson being behind the ending (if you could cite that I'd appreciate it), but even if true there are many cases of writers making a wonderful product under an imperfect director and many more of said directors breaking certain parts of the story when they take control away from the writers or when a particularly talented lead is no longer there to restrain them. Heck, something like that being written by the director is a red flag in the first place; there are good reasons that writers and directors are different roles in producing a game.

Yes, EA has been seen as killing some franchises/publishers, and I understand that. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the article where in which it was stated that Hudson created the ending. Really sorry about that, but I do believe it was posted either on IGN, or the Escapist threads (which could obviously mean that it was false, but I believe there was a link).

Suncatcher:

On the multiplayer front, I actually have to commend them though. Sure its influence on galactic readyness is annoying, but they managed to make the first plotless online shootfest that I actually enjoyed playing.

So much respect

Suncatcher:

And to contribute to the ongoing Vega debate: not everyone needs to be your childhood friend or a comrade of a hundred battles to join your squad. He was, in fact, just some dude (well, high rank marine with anti-Collector experience) who was in the same base at the time. He knew (of) Shepard because Shepard is the most famous human alive at that point. He ended up on the ship because he was alongside Ash/Kaiden when they went to the Normandy, and he stays on your ship because you can't exactly swing by to drop him off back on Earth to join the fight there because it's covered with Reapers and you'd lose the Normandy, Shepard, and the galaxy's one chance if you got caught there. There really isn't any problem with Vega's introduction except for the fact that it results in Vega being near Shepard and I really kinda hate that guy.

I was initially against Vega, because all I saw was that he was a latino jersey shore looking dude. But after playing the first 2 hours of the games, I really, REALLY liked his character. I loved that he wasn't a Jersey Shore DB, I loved that he was a soldier through and through, but knew how to chill out after missions. I feel as though he was a nice addition to the series as he was the only human on your team who was somewhat freaked out about the Reapers' raw power. I did feel annoyed that some characters didn't join my team for REALLY stupid reasons. Samara could have totally joined, but doesn't because...she doesn't. Jack states that her students are doing fine without her, but refuses to join you, kinda understand, but sill, I miss my psychotic biotic. Not entirely annoyed by it, but it's something that would have been nice (having more team mates). I also didn't like it when Tali joined my team (Not gonna lie, REALLY didn't like Tali). Seeing as how she was an admiral, she should have gone back to her fleet after the Rannoch mission. But, my opinion...others liked Tali.

bug_of_war:
I probably should have been more specific. I never meant to imply that I thought the Reapers were VI's, my belief was that the Reapers were AI's, however were restricted by some base programming measures that guided them. I agree with you that he was arrogant and quite well developed, however cleverbot can be arrogant and have some depth, and that program is just a VI. Again, HUUUUUUGE stretch there, but it's just my opinion and it worked for me and caused me to see no problem with the ending.

Okay. Now I'm having an idea. One that might, if you stretch a little, actually close the plotholes in the ME3 ending. This might take a while, so


It's stretching and there isn't much to support it over any other theory, but it seems to fit all the evidence I can think of.
Okay, now somebody help me find the holes in this.

bug_of_war:
I was initially against Vega, because all I saw was that he was a latino jersey shore looking dude. But after playing the first 2 hours of the games, I really, REALLY liked his character. I loved that he wasn't a Jersey Shore DB, I loved that he was a soldier through and through, but knew how to chill out after missions. I feel as though he was a nice addition to the series as he was the only human on your team who was somewhat freaked out about the Reapers' raw power.

My first impression of him was that he was a boring grunt, when my ship was full of deep, unique, wonderful people. Though I'll admit that because of the bad first impression I didn't talk to him much later in the game my first time through, and I haven't gotten around to a second playthough yet, so if he has awesome hidden depths I'd have missed them. Like how I didn't like Garrus at all in the first game but started to love him in the second maybe?

but sill, I miss my psychotic biotic.

Same here. But as strong as those kids were, they weren't ready for the horrors of the front line without her there as an unstoppable force of destruction and/or team mom.

Devoneaux:
Edit: To be perfectly honest I never understood why her armor was colored to begin with. Seems kinda silly really.

At any rate if I really wanted to nitpick the beginning to death I could take it several steps further: Why is Ashley taking orders from the earth defense committee? What exactly is she doing here? What is this building that combines military headquarters, a place for keeping people under house arrest, and courthouse all in a highrise building? Where is this building specifically? It's kinda-sorta-not-really-implied that it's New York like an hour later but I dunno.

If Shepard was being kept basically as a prisoner, why didn't they keep him in Arturus Station where the alliance is actually centered? How did the nightmare kid get from the top of one building into the ducts of this one? Why are the reapers shooting at random defenseless buildings like this is some godzilla movie? ect. The list goes on into nitpicks of varying severity, you get the idea.

Again these are easy, I am beginning to wonder if you ever actually played the game or if you just watched a lets play or something.

-Ashleys Armour is blue because its the Alliance colours, shes not in standard armour as she is on special operations
-The base is in Vancouver
-The base is there because the Alliance has bases all over Earth
-How did the kid move around the base? His legs in all likelihood
-Why didn't they keep him it Arcturus? Because in the plot Arcturus station was destroyed almost instantly as part of the Reapers typical "shock and awe"
-Which is the final point, the Reapers blew the hell out of everything because its the way they make war.

Not G. Ivingname:

Judgement101:
ALL OF ULTIMA 9!
"What's a Paladin?"................the creators need to take a serious look at their games before they release it.

"You knowledge of the land will be great!"

You can get so many plot holes just from that one statement.

Eh, you can hit better ones then the Avatar ignorance (which did exist somewhat in all of the games to let newbies play)

Dupre's a spirit at least, and was last in the Void, but how did Iolo and Shamino get there from Serpent Isle? And why is Shamino suddenly a mage again when he hasn't been since Ultima 1 (if that was even still the same Shamino at this point)

Similarly, how did Blackthorn cross over from Serpent Isle? The Guardian couldv'e hypothetically brought him, but its not like he was a military genius or anything, he inherited the throne when he had it.

Why is the Codex not in the Void? Or did Samhain steal the lenses and go get it himself without anyone noticing.

The Guardians created by the Avatar's purity. So you could theoretically just do some unvirtuous stuff and weaken/reabsorb him? Back to the hookers!

canadamus_prime:
One that's been bugging me since the end of Mass Effect 2 (haven't played 3, so maybe someone who has can sort this out for me), but it's established in the first game that the Citadel is the only (known) way for the Reapers to get into our Galaxy from Dark Space and yet at the end of Mass Effect 2 it's implied that a huge invasion is on it's way and that was the whole plot of Mass Effect 3 was it not? My question is how the hell did they get here? We shut down their only known way in in the first game.

The citadel was a shortcut into the galaxy, as was the Mass Relay in the Arrival DLC. Without those they were forced to get there the slow way which evidently took close to 3 years.

My question, it's said that the reapers come every 50,000 years, but then later that they come when the races of the galaxy become too advanced. Which is it? Don't tell me the races of the galaxy always take the exact same amount of time to become advanced.

OlasDAlmighty:
Don't tell me the races of the galaxy always take the exact same amount of time to become advanced.

The time it takes tech to advance is pre determined by the seeding of Reaper tech, it means they advance at a roughly predictable pace and in a predictable path.

J Tyran:

Devoneaux:
Edit: To be perfectly honest I never understood why her armor was colored to begin with. Seems kinda silly really.

At any rate if I really wanted to nitpick the beginning to death I could take it several steps further: Why is Ashley taking orders from the earth defense committee? What exactly is she doing here? What is this building that combines military headquarters, a place for keeping people under house arrest, and courthouse all in a highrise building? Where is this building specifically? It's kinda-sorta-not-really-implied that it's New York like an hour later but I dunno.

If Shepard was being kept basically as a prisoner, why didn't they keep him in Arturus Station where the alliance is actually centered? How did the nightmare kid get from the top of one building into the ducts of this one? Why are the reapers shooting at random defenseless buildings like this is some godzilla movie? ect. The list goes on into nitpicks of varying severity, you get the idea.

Again these are easy, I am beginning to wonder if you ever actually played the game or if you just watched a lets play or something.

-Ashleys Armour is blue because its the Alliance colours, shes not in standard armour as she is on special operations
-The base is in Vancouver
-The base is there because the Alliance has bases all over Earth
-How did the kid move around the base? His legs in all likelihood
-Why didn't they keep him it Arcturus? Because in the plot Arcturus station was destroyed almost instantly as part of the Reapers typical "shock and awe"
-Which is the final point, the Reapers blew the hell out of everything because its the way they make war.

Again you're misunderstanding the questions.

-Even her combat armor in ME1 was colored (pink) Why? The alliance is a military, militaries are typically known for utilizing standardized equipment, what does Ashley do that requires her own special "Uniform"?

-Again, one of those things that would be nice to know from the start

- you're missing the point, why is this base located in a vulnerable highrise building and why does it have the combined functionality of very specific unrelated things?

-How did he get from the roof of his building to the roof of ours in the same amount of time it took Shepard to get there? Why did he go there in the first place if all he's going to do is hide in the vents because "Nobody can help him"?

-A bulk of the Alliance military survived the attack on Arcturus, so it's not like Shepard couldn't have made it out alive.

-Did you play the games? In ME2 it's established that reapers want humans to make a reaper. So why are they vaporizing people and buildings that serve no real threat? Their every action on earth is more or less inconsistent with what was set up in ME2. Reapers are in the business of wiping out life by the galaxy load and/or using that life to make new reapers. If they wanted to make a new reaper they could have used a massive planet engulfing seeker swarm. If they wanted to destroy all life, they could have just used even a traditional mass driver to nuke earth from space (they've destroyed planets just fine before). But the way they go about it is comparable to me trying to wipe out an ant colony using only a magnifying glass. It's stupid.

Devoneaux:
Again you're misunderstanding the questions.

You have shown that your observation is pretty poor, do you really want to have to go through me proving you wrong every step of the way yet again? My understanding of the questions has been spot on every time.

J Tyran:

Devoneaux:
Again you're misunderstanding the questions.

You have shown that your observation is pretty poor, do you really want to have to go through me proving you wrong every step of the way yet again? My understanding of the questions has been spot on every time.

No it hasn't. Your answers have predominately been smartassery that doesn't actually address what i'm asking. Yes I understand the kid can walk, no shit. how did he walk from from his building all the way into the other building, climbing up through vents to the top level in the same amount of time it took Shepard to get there? The only way he could have feasibly gotten there is if he started well before the reapers came. You might -think- you're addressing my questions, but you're really not.

Edit: Regardless I think we're done here, you are either incapable or refuse to actually address the question i'm asking so we're not going to get anywhere with further arguing.

If Bowser turned a lot of the residents of Mushroom Kingdom into bricks, what happens when Mario breaks them? I certainly don't see little mushroom dudes escaping. And furthermore, why did he get REWARDED for his actions? This is just one of many thoughts in my ongoing belief that Mario is the real villain of the series, and Bowser is the misunderstood anti-hero.

Devoneaux:

J Tyran:

Devoneaux:
Again you're misunderstanding the questions.

You have shown that your observation is pretty poor, do you really want to have to go through me proving you wrong every step of the way yet again? My understanding of the questions has been spot on every time.

No it hasn't. Your answers have predominately been smartassery that doesn't actually address what i'm asking. Yes I understand the kid can walk, no shit. how did he walk from from his building all the way into the other building, climbing up through vents to the top level in the same amount of time it took Shepard to get there? The only way he could have feasibly gotten there is if he started well before the reapers came. You might -think- you're addressing my questions, but you're really not.

Edit: Regardless I think we're done here, you are either incapable or refuse to actually address the question i'm asking so we're not going to get anywhere with further arguing.

Well have you seen a map of the base? How do we know the building he was in wasn't the same one he was on the roof of when Shepard watched him from the window for starters, neither do we know how easy it was to move around the complex. It was ten minutes or more from when Shepard saw him on the roof to when he was in the vent, it was more than five minutes from when Shepard saw him on the roof until the first Reaper hit the base. Neither do you know he used the vents to get to where he was, he could have moved around and then entered the vent close to where Shepard found him. Again you are making assumptions about things you have no way of knowing about.

The kid had plenty of time to move around, and that's assuming the building he was found in is a different one entirely. I admit my answers are slightly snarky but that's because your questions are silly and all ready have obvious answers. "How did the kid get to where he was" well of course he used his legs, what did you expect him to use a fugging jetpack? It wasn't a question that really needed asking let alone answering.

bug_of_war:
I probably should have been more specific. I never meant to imply that I thought the Reapers were VI's, my belief was that the Reapers were AI's, however were restricted by some base programming measures that guided them. I agree with you that he was arrogant and quite well developed, however cleverbot can be arrogant and have some depth, and that program is just a VI. Again, HUUUUUUGE stretch there, but it's just my opinion and it worked for me and caused me to see no problem with the ending.

Suncatcher:

Okay. Now I'm having an idea. One that might, if you stretch a little, actually close the plotholes in the ME3 ending. This might take a while, so (extensive text)
The Reapers aren't the villain here, they're another victim of a race of tyrants long dead.[/spoiler]
It's stretching and there isn't much to support it over any other theory, but it seems to fit all the evidence I can think of.
Okay, now somebody help me find the holes in this.

Well yeah, I never thought that far into detail, but around ME3's ending I saw the Starchild as the safety net that the original creators would have placed within the programming of the Reapers. It's my understanding that the Leviathan DLC reveals that the creators of the Reapers initially created the Starchild to come up with a way to solve the problem of synthetics fighting organics, and they then built the Reapers. Assuming that the Starchild was simply put there to process probability calculations, it is likely that the Starchild is a VI, especially the way it talks to Shepard. So, to then link the Reapers, an AI powerhouse race of synthetic, to a VI that has the sole purpose of solving 1 particular problem, you can kind of see how the VI would come to the conclusion of preserving organic races in synthetic bodies and the overwriting a majority of the Reapers' intelligence and using them as pawns.

Again, loose fan theory, but it makes more sense then the Shepard indoctrination theory and has very few holes if any.

bug_of_war:
I was initially against Vega, because all I saw was that he was a latino jersey shore looking dude. But after playing the first 2 hours of the games, I really, REALLY liked his character. I loved that he wasn't a Jersey Shore DB, I loved that he was a soldier through and through, but knew how to chill out after missions. I feel as though he was a nice addition to the series as he was the only human on your team who was somewhat freaked out about the Reapers' raw power.

Suncatcher:

My first impression of him was that he was a boring grunt, when my ship was full of deep, unique, wonderful people. Though I'll admit that because of the bad first impression I didn't talk to him much later in the game my first time through, and I haven't gotten around to a second playthough yet, so if he has awesome hidden depths I'd have missed them. Like how I didn't like Garrus at all in the first game but started to love him in the second maybe?

He was totally there to fill the Krogan role, and I can see where other players saw him to be shallow or unlikeable. But I saw the charm of a young marine in a war like no other, whom had a hard time in the past, reacting and living through such horrors. He was a difficult character to really like and understand I guess, kind of like Connor from Assassins Creed 3. I really liked him because I understood why he was the man he was. Most people hated his attitude and naive nature, but I totally understood it, and for that I really loved the character. I'm not saying you have to understand a character to like them, far from it, what I'm saying is sometimes understanding a character can give you a new appreciation for them. Not all the time, but there are a lot of characters who go un-noticed due to not acting like Nathan Drake or Master Chief.

bug_of_war:
but sill, I miss my psychotic biotic.

Suncatcher:

Same here. But as strong as those kids were, they weren't ready for the horrors of the front line without her there as an unstoppable force of destruction and/or team mom.

I know but...come on, don't tell me you didn't wish the students told her to go with you, even though they were screwed without her. I just...Damn it she was such a cool character and all we got to see of her was one mission, and then two side conversations.

TizzytheTormentor:

Neronium:

Legion:
Fallout 3 original ending is the worst one that I have ever encountered.

Pretty much that. That ending seriously was just bad. "It's your destiny" Fawkes says, but you when I'm thinking with my head that the day can be saved and I'd be able to live sounds like a good prospect. But no the developers decided to make so that you couldn't until Broken Steel.

Indeed, the "whoever goes in there dies due to radiation poisoning" line made everyone who had Cheron/RL-something/Fawkes to do it, yet they didn't for asinine reasons and even when they agree in Broken Steel, they act pissed about it, why are they pissed?

The Vault door isn't busted, you can get into Vault 87 without using the back entrance. It's just the radiation is so high it literally takes over a hundred RadAway doses to even make it to the entrance let alone enter it and get into 87 proper.

Another Fallout 3 one:

otakon17:

TizzytheTormentor:

Neronium:

Pretty much that. That ending seriously was just bad. "It's your destiny" Fawkes says, but you when I'm thinking with my head that the day can be saved and I'd be able to live sounds like a good prospect. But no the developers decided to make so that you couldn't until Broken Steel.

Indeed, the "whoever goes in there dies due to radiation poisoning" line made everyone who had Cheron/RL-something/Fawkes to do it, yet they didn't for asinine reasons and even when they agree in Broken Steel, they act pissed about it, why are they pissed?

The Vault door isn't busted, you can get into Vault 87 without using the back entrance. It's just the radiation is so high it literally takes over a hundred RadAway doses to even make it to the entrance let alone enter it and get into 87 proper.

Another Fallout 3 one:

Actually, Autumn does inject himself with a plot device that makes him immune to radiation, if you look closely just before he collapses into a heap.
image
It is easy to miss and you can only find out if you take certain dialog paths when captured at Raven Rock.

EDIT: Also this on the vault door! From the overseer terminal!
"I'm quite sad to report that due to a direct hit from what I presume to be a nuclear weapon on the entry area of Vault 87, we will be unable to provide the Scouting Reports as outlined in Vault-Tec's Operations Manual. The main door to Vault 87 is damaged beyond repair and we are detecting extremely high levels of lethal radiation outside and in the entry tunnel."

Suncatcher:

Granted, many of these things have outcomes that seem roughly equivalent on the face, since it's just not feasible to make an entirely different game for every possible combination of factors

Really? Because After I finished Mass Effect 3 I sat down in a fit of rage and wrote one.
I'm not programing gameplay or designing levels or anything but I wrote a script that takes into account every combination of choices you can make in the first 2 games.

Yeah, a script is easy. But just as a simple example, if the Ravagers were removed from the game by killing the Rachni queen in the first game? Every single level that included them needs to be reworked and rebalanced. The quest in the tunnels no longer exists for half of the pcs, so suddenly you have to allow for a wide range of levels of Shepard in every mission after that because of lost exp, and half your your players are going to be bitching about the game being too long or too short unless you make some equivalent mission that only happens if there aren't rachni around for some reason. Which would increase production costs by a significant amount and make the story even more nonsensical.

Wait. How is compensating for a very important player choice that was completely ignored by the writers of the game going to make anything more nonsensical?
Because to my mind.
I killed the last Rachnai. Oh shoot they're all back is more nonsensical than
I killed the last Rachnai, anything that doesn't involve Rachnai happens.

And I fully agree that redoing the levels to compensate for player choices would take work.
You know what? Good things take work.
If Bioware seriously thought that they could half ass and cut every corner and end up with a good game that means they should stop making products because they obviously don't know what they're supposed to be doing.

When it comes right down to it there aren't that many factors you have to take into account... there are only 50 possible outcomes you have to consider.

And if you make the basic structure of the game different for each one, that's 50 different full length AAA games you need to make. With all the rage over day 1 DLC, do you really think anyone would be willing to pay the several hundreds of dollars per copy required to recoup those costs?

There are really only 3 or 4 choices that would drastically effect the gameplay.
There would only be 1 or 2 levels they'd have to build from scratch, and just recycle the enemy AI they already used.
The vast majority would only effect the writing process and since that's the easy part just nut up and pay your vice actors to read more lines.
Like I said the script is only about 5 times the length, the amount of new architecture you have to program is negligible. and they'd really only have to make one, maybe two more enemy factions. And considering how boring and samey all the Mass Effect firefights are all they'd have to do is re-skin Cerberus and call it a day.

But this is Bioware we're talking about, if the writing is good people would play Mass Effect 3 the text adventure, that's the kind of fan base Bioware had, and they're fucking us over with these poorly written worse constructed action games. Go back to RPG's, go back to the Hero's Journey, and if you need to cut cost cut cut graphics.
What does this have to do with Day 1 DLC?

That would be the case if any of the scenes you mentioned existed. You save the queen, your numbers go up.
You save the clone, your numbers go down and you get a strongly worded letter from Hackett.

Did you actually read any of the text in the game? Because everything in the game is a part of the story, and if you don't pay attention to anything without a big shiny cutscene you're missing much of the plot and can't really contribute to a story discussion.

Yes I read every word of it.
Especially the Emails from people who refuse to talk to you when you're standing 3 feet from them insistently clicking on them.
The problem is that it was mostly exposition, There were a few times when you got a legitimately good Email (Kai Leng's post coup message, Morinth's message to Rila and what's her name. A lot of the messages that had nothing to do with anything like the interrogation records and such)
You never got any real insightful character information that made me think differently about any of the stuff I think. Wrapping up an entire story arc in a brief impersonal email is very bad form. It's like they outsourced all the email messages to interns. (Except the ones I mentioned up there. But hey, some interns are talented. Maybe interns wrote all of 'em. I don't know.)

If Shepard knew that TIM and by extension Cerberus is was and forever will be evil, why in the hell did s/he give TIM the Collector base?

That base was full of tech which could be used against the Reapers. For all you knew, it was the only way to catch up the crippling technological disadvantage in time to save the galaxy. That wasn't a question of whether or not you liked Cerberus, it was a question of whether you were willing to take the risk of giving that resource to someone you knew was evil but currently working on the right side, or if you would destroy that threat at the cost of being less prepared for the real invasion.

According to you. YOU. Shepard knew the Illusive Man was evil and going to stab him/her in the back the second s/he showed it to him. That's you talking (That's me paraphrasing you)

And willing to work with people who are clearly evil because he can't accomplish what he needs alone

That's you taking.
Would you trust someone who is "clearly evil" with that level of technology?

It's all rendered moot anyway because TIM attacks you first thing in ME3 regardless of what you did with the base.
Regardless of how much you wanted to work with him.
Regardless of how much you thought his Idea about reverse engineering indoctrination to use it against the Reapers was a better plan than putting all your eggs in the Dues Ex Machnia basket.

Basically Shepard died in the 6 months between ME 2 and 3 and was replaced by a personality deficient dipshit who was unwilling and unable to think for him/her self.

Diablo III.

Pretty much the only character that actually acted to all their hype and description that made them the feared Lesser Evils was...oh wait. None of them. Belial the Lord of Lies put himself directly in your face constantly, and even the NPCs commented on how horribly obvious he was. Azmodan was even worse. For being the revered tactician, he was constantly telling you his plans like some poorly written cartoon villian. I half expected him to say "I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!" Diablo was the only one that accomplished anything or truly lived up to his legend.

Devoneaux:

darlarosa:

Rawne1980:
Dragon Age 2.

All the way through it you get drummed with "Mages are good .... Templars are bad".

Yet all the way through it the Templars are helpful and polite and the Mages are trying to eat my face.....

Kind of hard to follow a plot and take it seriously when it doesn't know what the fuck it's doing itself. In fact, the Templars don't turn "bad" until the very end and even then it's only 1 person .... who turns bad because of a corrupt sword .... made from metal Hawke found.

WHO WRITES THIS SHIT.

Well...its pretty much implied throughout the game that a lot of rape and sexual assault is happening in the Gallows. If you walk around the gallows and click on people a few times or overhear them they'll hint at it repeatedly. The reason that crazy Templar was making mages Trainquil was so he could use them without complaining. Alain, one of the mages from Starkhaven, if he is captured he will tell you that he has been forced to do things under threat of being made Trainquil

It's not done well at all. Every other mage uses blood magic, and
I have a theory it was all in an attempt to make people want to play a templar in DA3....

Devoneaux:
So reapers attack earth and Shepard and Anderson start climbing around on the rooftops. Why? Why didn't they just take the stairs, how is this in any way faster or safer than the sensible thing?

Because the doors are blocked and the interior of the building is chaos. Thats pretty damn clear. Not to mention you don't know what is stable and what isn't....remember the Reaper tore through that building.
...a lot og your questions are answered if you go look up the wiki or...pay attention to the game

Actually if you look closely, the desk breaks apart as it hits the wall, so there goes that. And that's exactly my point, we don't know if the door works because nobody in the room even bothers to check, they just look at the blown out window and go "Yep this is the best way to go about this." without even thinking things through. So yeah, maybe you'd like to try paying attention.

Edit: Also, are you suggesting to me that Shepard and Anderson( trained military proffessionals) can't...hop over a desk when we see them hoping over chest high walls within the next few minutes? As Shepard once said to a reporter: I'm tired of your disingenuous assertions!

If you actually look, some of the beams of the room are in the debris, then if you look at the direction where they came from which is the only apparent interest to the room their are large beams and other steel debris blocking the way. Also consider that the goal is to get out of there, and get to a ship of some kind. There is a better chance of that if you are outside then in a building. Considering that the reapers could once again fire on the building and bring the whole damn thing down it might be a good idea to go outside. Do you run through a burning building trying to get out or use the fire escape?

Now onto the artistic licence. Consider this is the first time the player sees Earth and Reaper destruction first hand. By putting Anderson and Shep outside you give the player that defining image of burning Earth. It doesn't disrupt the game,

darlarosa:

Devoneaux:

darlarosa:

Well...its pretty much implied throughout the game that a lot of rape and sexual assault is happening in the Gallows. If you walk around the gallows and click on people a few times or overhear them they'll hint at it repeatedly. The reason that crazy Templar was making mages Trainquil was so he could use them without complaining. Alain, one of the mages from Starkhaven, if he is captured he will tell you that he has been forced to do things under threat of being made Trainquil

It's not done well at all. Every other mage uses blood magic, and
I have a theory it was all in an attempt to make people want to play a templar in DA3....

Because the doors are blocked and the interior of the building is chaos. Thats pretty damn clear. Not to mention you don't know what is stable and what isn't....remember the Reaper tore through that building.
...a lot og your questions are answered if you go look up the wiki or...pay attention to the game

Actually if you look closely, the desk breaks apart as it hits the wall, so there goes that. And that's exactly my point, we don't know if the door works because nobody in the room even bothers to check, they just look at the blown out window and go "Yep this is the best way to go about this." without even thinking things through. So yeah, maybe you'd like to try paying attention.

Edit: Also, are you suggesting to me that Shepard and Anderson( trained military proffessionals) can't...hop over a desk when we see them hoping over chest high walls within the next few minutes? As Shepard once said to a reporter: I'm tired of your disingenuous assertions!

Now onto the artistic licence. Consider this is the first time the player sees Earth and Reaper destruction first hand. By putting Anderson and Shep outside you give the player that defining image of burning Earth. It doesn't disrupt the game,

the first point was already brought up and I have since then conceded to it (though I would have liked if it was a bit more apparent, but hey at this point i'll take what I can get.) As to the second point? This I disagree with on a matter of opinion, I think that Shepard running through a building as it burns and collapses watching all of it's inhabitants panic and struggle as he tries to make his way outside through the rubble fires husks and mass chaos would have been a much more personal introduction before seeing the outside of earth. While watching a big ship explode was neat I don't feel it was very dramatic, and Bioware's attempt to try and make it more personal through the kid was hammy and dumb.

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