Do you think that Dark Souls should be changed to offer an
No.
24.8% (115)
24.8% (115)
Hell No!
28% (130)
28% (130)
Yes!
33.6% (156)
33.6% (156)
Mebbe Bacon? Made of Spicy Pony?
12.9% (60)
12.9% (60)
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Poll: Dark Souls: Time to Put Up or Shut Up.

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Headdrivehardscrew:

And yet - people think just plain enjoying the game is 'elitism'.

I have no interest in joining this debate; I've been trying to avoid it. I do, however, feel you're misconstruing the opposing side's argument.

The two sides, as I understand it, come down to this:

Against Easy Mode: "It's a fundamental change to the game, and would defeat the core engagement."

For Easy Mode: "We want to experience the game, and how we do so shouldn't be for you to decide."

So the people on the other side from you aren't calling enjoying the game 'elitism'. They're calling the stance that you can only enjoy the game your way 'elitism'.

Whether that's true or not is up to you guys/gals to sort out. I just don't like it when someone misrepresents the opposing side's argument. Strikes me too much like rhetoric and propaganda, which is not good for a constructive debate.

JustanotherGamer:
You are calling me an Hardcore exclusionary Elitist Nazi that only wants games I like to be made witch is total bullshit
I want games to be made for people to enjoy. But we don't all like the same things you keep on eating your tripe and enjoy it and leave me the fuck alone and i'l keep on enjoying my juicy prime rib steak.

But no you want my steak to be taken away and replaced with the shitty gruel that you enjoy!?

And that's where people who know how to use their brain come up with a solution. You know, speaking of food... Outback knows people like prime rib and steak but want both so they offer a platter that gives a portion of each. This way people who only like the prime rib can get it, he ones who just want steak can indulge themselves, and lastly, the ones who want both CAN ALSO FUCKING ENJOY THIER MEAL. No one is taking your "hard" or "difficult" mode away by simply having an easy mode. The ONLY person that could would be YOURSELF if you choose to play easy (giving yourself "gruel"). Unintelligent elitists are only going make the DS series into a one trick pony and last time I checked... one trick pony businesses go under. Heck, didn't the lead person of the DS series already leave or is set to leave? *sigh* so many elitists, so many to educate, so many fucks being wasted... -_-

why is an easy mode that important in the first place?

dark souls, unlike most games of the recent generation, does not hold your hand. you are responsible for your actions. if you accidentally hit a vendor with your sword, it doesn't care that it was an accident, you have to absolve your sins or kill them or avoid them until NG+. if you accidentally backstep off a ledge, you could have been in better control of your hands and not tapped circle. if you got hit by an enemy while your hit was interrupted, then you should have attacked at a better opening, preferably after they attack and miss.

that is the difficulty of dark souls. that's why there shouldn't be an easy mode.

after playing demon's souls, i'd say dark souls is actually loads better at explaining things like statistics. open the menu and pay attention to your command options.

The Lunatic:
I don't think it should have an "Easy Mode".

I've no issues with the concept. But, I do have issue with the time it'd take to design and implement it.

It's a game, games have rules, they have victory conditions and loss conditions.

A game like dark souls, the rules are heavily stacked against the player. That's the fun of the game, it's overcoming the odds.

Thus the game is designed as such, features at added with the mindset that the player will want to do them, for the challenge and to overcome it.

Once you remove that aspect, what's the point? You're making a mode of the game that's designed to be the opposite of the way you designed the rest of the game.

It's not going to be very fun.

I know there's probably some people saying "I'd enjoy Dark Souls" if it was easier, but, in actuality, I really don't think they would.

So, yes, if From Software has the time and the resources to make Dark Souls without taking up development time which would be better spent upon the core gameplay experience, maybe you can see about an introductory mode, or something, but, a straight up "Easy Mode" which would likely add a few weeks of development to be done right, wouldn't be the worth the time.

One person's fun may not be to another. My wife would like to play the game and experience the story and details herself because I can talk about Dark Souls for hours on end but she doesn't have the skill to get past the Asylum Demon. People have mentioned what makes dark souls fun which is: discovery (EpicNameBro has hours of YT vids on lore), challenges, PvP, helping/assisting other, and overcoming the odds. You think it's fun to watch someone talk about a game or is it fun to actually experience it for yourself? What people don't understand is that all their bitching about how there can't be an easy mode in dark souls has done one of two things that I can think of. One it will make Fromsoft put in an easy mode either by making the game as a whole easier (which is hilarious since they already made Dark Souls easier then Demons Souls), or just leaving the game as is and losing out on revenue that could be used to better the series for a possible third installment.

Master_Fubar23:
One person's fun may not be to another. My wife would like to play the game and experience the story and details herself because I can talk about Dark Souls for hours on end but she doesn't have the skill to get past the Asylum Demon. People have mentioned what makes dark souls fun which is: discovery (EpicNameBro has hours of YT vids on lore), challenges, PvP, helping/assisting other, and overcoming the odds. You think it's fun to watch someone talk about a game or is it fun to actually experience it for yourself? What people don't understand is that all their bitching about how there can't be an easy mode in dark souls has done one of two things that I can think of. One it will make Fromsoft put in an easy mode either by making the game as a whole easier (which is hilarious since they already made Dark Souls easier then Demons Souls), or just leaving the game as is and losing out on revenue that could be used to better the series for a possible third installment.

Dark Souls is not an outstandingly hard game.

It's definitely more difficult than the average, but, it's not some reserved chalice only the most prestigious gamers can drink from.

So, one really has to question why, if somebody enjoys the game, they don't try to overcome the hump of difficulty the game comes with?

I don't mean to speak out of turn, and addressing one's significant other is always a bit awkward, but, surely, if somebody enjoys the game, they'll work to overcome such things? I can only really speak from first-hand experience with games, but, generally if I know there's a game I'm going to enjoy, assuming I get past a small bump or learn to do things a bit differently, I generally try to do that.

Anyone can beat Dark Souls. They just have be interested enough in it to learn how.

So, the idea that time should be taken to make it easier, for people who aren't interested enough in the game to overcome the present design seems a bit odd to me.

ultrabiome:
why is an easy mode that important in the first place?

dark souls, unlike most games of the recent generation, does not hold your hand. you are responsible for your actions. if you accidentally hit a vendor with your sword, it doesn't care that it was an accident, you have to absolve your sins or kill them or avoid them until NG+. if you accidentally backstep off a ledge, you could have been in better control of your hands and not tapped circle. if you got hit by an enemy while your hit was interrupted, then you should have attacked at a better opening, preferably after they attack and miss.

that is the difficulty of dark souls. that's why there shouldn't be an easy mode.

after playing demon's souls, i'd say dark souls is actually loads better at explaining things like statistics. open the menu and pay attention to your command options.

Your right, the game doesn't hold your hand. However, do you start a child on a motorcycle when trying to learn to ride a bike? No, you start them on the training wheels until they can ride without them.

Headdrivehardscrew:
EDIT: Ah, my mistake - question should read:

Do you think that Dark Souls should be changed to offer an easy mode?

It's already fuckin' here,jesus.
However I do agree proper tutorials to the basics of the game should be done,so people have more room to explore and create builds and strategies of their own,rather than being given them on silver platter via the interwebs.But then again people are lazy and will do that anyway,because its easier,requires less thought and effort.

Headdrivehardscrew:
Instadeath, permadeath, unfair enemies, insurmountable, giant foes, losing everything upon death, getting punished and pummelled and laughed at by demonic and undead hordes - that didn't exactly sound like a fun experience to me.

Well,welcome to roguelikes.Here's a shocker: Dark Souls isn't a roguelike,it was never meant to be.Now let get me get back on my 39th run of FTL.

A Weakgeek:
Just add a box that you can tick during chargen have it add 4x hp, 2-3x mana and give you a key so you can access all areas, and remove penalties on death. Wouldnt take more than 2 hours to code and would make the game way more accessible. Sure, anyone with decent videogame skills would mostlikely breeze through it really fast, but they can replay it on hard after. If they don't, then its no loss for anyone else.

I didn't see people complaining when it was discovered that you can get extra lives in Contra by putting in the konami code.

IronMit:

Level design; there are instant death area's.falls, one hit KO traps. will these be removed..How can you give classic dark souls players the same experience when altering level design to accommodate easy mode players.

Just do like they did in most ps2 era platformers, loose a shiver of your life and return your guy back on the plataform.

As I said at the end of my post...there are ways they can tackle each problem to make an easy mode without compromising normal mode...but will they get every one right?

krazykidd:

Rawne1980:
Personally I don't care if they do or don't.

I've already blown through Dark Souls twice and found it pretty easy (NG+, people said it was harder ... they lied)....

If they put in an easy mode the "hard" mode will still be there.

Plus, I hear companies like to make money .. I know, I know, they should do it out of love and feed their children on the praise of the players. How rude of them to want actually payment .. And if offering an easy mode makes them more money then go for it.

No no no ! If they put an easy mode , the have to put the normal (regular dark souls difficulty mode ) and an even harder hard mode . It's the only way .

OT: i choose elitism , if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen . Honestly , i want to meet the guy , that hears dark souls is hard ( because it was marketed as such ) , buys it anyways , then complains it's too hard , and punch him in the face . YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE GETTING INTO !

I didn't think it would be THAT hard! DX

The Lunatic:

Master_Fubar23:
One person's fun may not be to another. My wife would like to play the game and experience the story and details herself because I can talk about Dark Souls for hours on end but she doesn't have the skill to get past the Asylum Demon. People have mentioned what makes dark souls fun which is: discovery (EpicNameBro has hours of YT vids on lore), challenges, PvP, helping/assisting other, and overcoming the odds. You think it's fun to watch someone talk about a game or is it fun to actually experience it for yourself? What people don't understand is that all their bitching about how there can't be an easy mode in dark souls has done one of two things that I can think of. One it will make Fromsoft put in an easy mode either by making the game as a whole easier (which is hilarious since they already made Dark Souls easier then Demons Souls), or just leaving the game as is and losing out on revenue that could be used to better the series for a possible third installment.

Dark Souls is not an outstandingly hard game.

It's definitely more difficult than the average, but, it's not some reserved chalice only the most prestigious gamers can drink from.

So, one really has to question why, if somebody enjoys the game, they don't try to overcome the hump of difficulty the game comes with?

I don't mean to speak out of turn, and addressing one's significant other is always a bit awkward, but, surely, if somebody enjoys the game, they'll work to overcome such things? I can only really speak from first-hand experience with games, but, generally if I know there's a game I'm going to enjoy, assuming I get past a small bump or learn to do things a bit differently, I generally try to do that.

Anyone can beat Dark Souls. They just have be interested enough in it to learn how.

So, the idea that time should be taken to make it easier, for people who aren't interested enough in the game to overcome the present design seems a bit odd to me.

There's a saying someone is born to "two left feet". This can be applied to hands and really the idiom applies to anyone who can't doing something well. It's not about "not being interested to learn how to play" it's more of they literally can't at the moment. As I stated in my last post, you start a child on training wheels before you move them to a bike. That is what an easy mode would provide for people who aren't skilled enough to beat the game. Also, you mention about taking the time away to develop an easy mode but really, that extra cost would be offset by the people who think they could now play the game. And by having people actually be able to approach the game they then could learn the game better. I'd even bet that those people would like DS2 so much that they would reply on the normal setting and if they enjoyed that go out and buy the first dark souls to enjoy that one. Ultimately, I really hope the developers make Dark Souls 2, ship it without an easy mode, and then patch in one after a couple weeks. That way the elitists and fanboys in general would have already bought the game and Fromsoft can enjoy increased profits. Then all the bitching and complaining would be moot and the nerd rage to follow would only serve to point out that the children or people with small egos are wrong and selfish.

T3hSource:

Headdrivehardscrew:
EDIT: Ah, my mistake - question should read:

Do you think that Dark Souls should be changed to offer an easy mode?

It's already fuckin' here,jesus.
However I do agree proper tutorials to the basics of the game should be done,so people have more room to explore and create builds and strategies of their own,rather than being given them on silver platter via the interwebs.But then again people are lazy and will do that anyway,because its easier,requires less thought and effort.

Headdrivehardscrew:
Instadeath, permadeath, unfair enemies, insurmountable, giant foes, losing everything upon death, getting punished and pummelled and laughed at by demonic and undead hordes - that didn't exactly sound like a fun experience to me.

Well,welcome to roguelikes.Here's a shocker: Dark Souls isn't a roguelike,it was never meant to be.Now let get me get back on my 39th run of FTL.

Hey, just in case - you seem to have missed my point and stance and everything:

I LOVE DARK SOULS

as is, too.

And yes, if people really want to cheat themselves out of doing shit themselves, they can hop onto the wiki on their ipads and go for a round of playing-by-numbers. They also have several in-game options to choose and pick, thus making their game more 'easy'. The question was more focussed on the recent incessant demand for an 'easy' option to be picked right at the title screen, mostly ignoring the very nature of Dark Souls itself and the various implications of it. Only a chosen few came up with somewhat viable ideas like multiple shards/servers, and even though I could go for such an approach in raw theory, I think it's pretty ignorant seeing at how just those - still existing - single regional servers were scheduled to have been put out of commission several times already. Servers cost money, all our online games will, eventually, only be playable offline.

As to roguelikes: Hey. I'm old. Been rogueish for thirty years and counting and loving it. I love roguelike. What's the one thing that makes Dark Souls non-roguelike? The missing randomization bit? real-time combat instead of turn-based combat? The actual absence of permadeath? Hey, I love all of those, since I love Dark Souls, as is. It was just a summary of what Dark Souls has been described both by prolific videogame journalists before it came out, and by reviewers as it came out, and people - most of whom have never played Dark Souls - ever since it came out. Shit doesn't have to be true to stick, y'know.

Dark Souls - Beats Sudokus and crossword puzzles in my books. And, yes, FTL rocks, but it doesn't tingle my tastebuds like Dark Souls does. Dark Souls makes me think and ponder and read and draw and paint and discuss and dream and long and love. FTL does a lot of things, but it doesn't do that for me.

Headdrivehardscrew:
So, it's that time of the month again.

People want to change Dark Souls. I say NAY! NEVER! and I don't intend to go for any elitism or any such thing. Hell, I was amongst those that never intended to get Demon's Souls (or Dark Souls) because I was - due to reporting and teh interwebz - absolutely certain that those Souls games were a bad, bad joke. Instadeath, permadeath, unfair enemies, insurmountable, giant foes, losing everything upon death, getting punished and pummelled and laughed at by demonic and undead hordes - that didn't exactly sound like a fun experience to me.

However, once I started playing and experiencing and learning, I couldn't stop. To be honest, Dark Souls is the one game I still play pretty much whenever I feel like it. I find it to be fun, zen and there's still new stuff to figure out. At the moment, I am working on perfecting my parrying skills with Queelag's Furysword in my left hand. It's just too sexy to not give it a spin... and a whirl... and a neat little shoulder with some attitude.

And yet - people think just plain enjoying the game is 'elitism'.

So, I guess, it's 'elitism' vs. 'entitlement' - entitlement to have anything changed, even before one makes the effort to figure something out. It's a shame.

So, what's your stance?

EDIT: Ah, my mistake - question should read:

Do you think that Dark Souls should be changed to offer an easy mode?

Changed =/= adding an option.
Apparantly Dark Souls fans against an easy mode are unable to fathom logic.

Here's a good test for anyone in this thread who is adamantly against the idea of an "easy mode" but swears up and down that they are not elitist.

Would you support an "easy mode" for Dark Souls if you were guaranteed that normal "hard mode" would not be affected in any way? The same experience you had would be 100% intact, only now there would be tiers of difficulty, offering easier versions of the same experience. Lowly casual gamers would be able to play the game, and put their hands all over the same content you did. Fight the same foes, get the same loot, see the same places, celebrate the same accomplishments...only easier. Would that bother you?

If the answer is "No, of course not", you are not elitist. At least not in this circumstance. You're probably just worried that too much tampering with difficulty levels will compromise the existing game.

If the answer is "Strangely, yes", congratulations, you are a big fat elitist. That sense of defensiveness you feel when someone calls you out on it is probably latent shame.

May the first person to respond to this post with "Yes but implementing an easy mode without damaging the game is impossible because of (bullshit reasons)" be buggered by clowns.

Master_Fubar23:

There's a saying someone is born to "two left feet". This can be applied to hands and really the idiom applies to anyone who can't doing something well. It's not about "not being interested to learn how to play" it's more of they literally can't at the moment. As I stated in my last post, you start a child on training wheels before you move them to a bike. That is what an easy mode would provide for people who aren't skilled enough to beat the game.

First of all, unless someone is born with a diagnosed neurological disorder which inhibits the formation of new synapses in the brain, all it takes to get better is practice, observation, patience, and self-analysis. The excuse that "some people won't get better no matter how hard or smart they try" has no scientific foundation when referring to the vast majority of the population. The more you practice something, the more that action is recorded into your muscle memory.

Now with Dark Souls, most gamers can easily gain the physical coordination necessary to beat the game. Its controls are not that different from other games, with the exception of playing it on mouse and keyboard. As such, your argument only holds ground when talking about new players to gaming in general, and I do not think that Dark Souls is a good game to be introduced to gaming with.

With your argument about training wheels, Dark Souls ALREADY has training wheels. You start off easy with a few enemies, a VERY easy boss, and a bunch of lowly undead. As the game progresses, it gets a LOT harder.
If someone can't beat the Asylum Demon after their first few tries, they just need to try some more. If the game suddenly became easier for them, then when presented with the next obstacle the jump in difficulty would be even greater.
Why?
Because success is a horrible teacher when compared to failure. When you succeed, you are much less likely to look back and find out just exactly WHY you succeeded unless you had already failed a whole bunch of times. Failure gives you a chance to reflect, success from overcoming an obstacle after lots of failures gives you the chance to reflect, but success that comes from making the obstacle easier or succeeding the first time gives you a lot less to reflect on. As such, your skills at the game don't increase as much as they should have.

Finally, another flaw with your bike analogy is that training wheels are meant for children to get the motions of riding a bike down into muscle memory without physically hurting themselves. They still need to learn balance when they get on a real bike. Also, Dark Souls doesn't physically hurt people.

Edit:
Also, the argument that adding options so that more people can play the game IS a good argument. For almost any OTHER game.
Dark souls in not like other games and adding an easy mode WOULD affect the game drastically, especially in the multiplayer which hasn't even been brought up yet.

Headdrivehardscrew:
snip

Wow,just because I said "fuckin'" doesn't mean I have completely negative implications,is cool mang.

Headdrivehardscrew:
They also have several in-game options to choose and pick, thus making their game more 'easy'.

This was my point: that people are lazy and would never even think about this 'easy' mode,but that requires effort and actual thinking,something an astonishing amount of people just don't want to do for anything in the world,let along a video game.

Headdrivehardscrew:
The question was more focused on the recent incessant demand for an 'easy' option to be picked right at the title screen, mostly ignoring the very nature of Dark Souls itself and the various implications of it.

So the real question is: Do people want to rob themselves from a unique experience,by giving them the choice to do so at the very start without even trying to grasp the game's mechanics and undertones which make or brake it for every player? My answer would be 'No,I don't want them to have it on a silver platter,I think it would be better if they find it themselves and discover Dark Souls.'-and this is an opinion of a non-player,just a viewer.

EDIT: It just came to me that this discussion brought up by ignorant journalists is going to lose any value whatsoever once Namco start their marketing campaign:"Prepare...for the hardest game this decade!" since subtlety will be mostly thrown out the window,because the brand has too much popularity now,and subtlety doesn't do well for hype marketing according to the common marketing businessman.And adding an "easy mode" on release would be counter-productive to that.

I don't know anyone who thinks enjoying Dark Souls is 'elitism'.

Akratus:

Headdrivehardscrew:

So, what's your stance?

EDIT: Ah, my mistake - question should read:

Do you think that Dark Souls should be changed to offer an easy mode?

Changed =/= adding an option.
Apparantly Dark Souls fans against an easy mode are unable to fathom logic.

What if I told you that the mere bit of 'adding an option' is a rather complicated thing?

What if I told you that there are already several (at least three significant) in-game choices to be made to make the game 'easier', both for the offline and online mode?

Don't get me wrong, I really try to use truckloads of logic to bury my own emotions under. But, alas, so far, logic seems to be rare in this thread, and thoughts are imperfect, unfinished, not worked out and more of a, let's say, trigger-response fashion, mostly just rallying against the perceived 'elitism' of individuals that do, actually, enjoy the game as is.

Oh, and there's also the bit where people don't just jump to the bacon option, but out of some odd perception of injustice and lack of inclusiveness for the masses go for the YES vote, spicing things up with plenty of hatred, expressing how much they think little or downright despise people that like the game as is, calling them names and suggesting there is something wrong with their attitudes or brains. I think that's one of my main gripes with the more vocal proponents of 'easy mode'.

It's like Che Guevara going to Africa.

And that's why I made my own thread.

Welcome.

BloatedGuppy:
Here's a good test for anyone in this thread who is adamantly against the idea of an "easy mode" but swears up and down that they are not elitist.

Would you support an "easy mode" for Dark Souls if you were guaranteed that normal "hard mode" would not be affected in any way? The same experience you had would be 100% intact, only now there would be tiers of difficulty, offering easier versions of the same experience. Lowly casual gamers would be able to play the game, and put their hands all over the same content you did. Fight the same foes, get the same loot, see the same places, celebrate the same accomplishments...only easier. Would that bother you?

If the answer is "No, of course not", you are not elitist. At least not in this circumstance. You're probably just worried that too much tampering with difficulty levels will compromise the existing game.

If the answer is "Strangely, yes", congratulations, you are a big fat elitist. That sense of defensiveness you feel when someone calls you out on it is probably latent shame.

May the first person to respond to this post with "Yes but implementing an easy mode without damaging the game is impossible because of (bullshit reasons)" be buggered by clowns.

In order for there to be an easy mode like you described, the game would have to be radically redesigned so that the same experiences from normal mode would be replicated to the easy mode. Otherwise, just straight out making you harder to kill and making the monsters easier to kill would actually drastically and negatively change the way that a player experiences Dark Souls. Many people have already stated the reasons as to why this is true.

Most people against an easy mode in DS are perfectly fine with difficulty modes in other game. This is because the core experience of those games does NOT revolve around the difficulty. With Dark Souls, challenge IS the core part of the experience and changing it would affect many other parts of the game. Dark souls with simple difficulty modifiers at the start screen would not be Dark Souls any more because it would not deliver the same Dark Souls experience.

For most people, it has nothing to do with elitism.

Filiecs:
In order for there to be an easy mode like you described, the game would have to be radically redesigned...

No, it wouldn't.

May the first person to respond to this post with "Yes but implementing an easy mode without damaging the game is impossible because of (bullshit reasons)" be buggered by clowns.

Beware of clowns.

Filiecs:
With Dark Souls, challenge IS the core part of the experience and changing it would affect many other parts of the game.

If I have to say "difficulty is relative" one more time I'm going to stab myself in the face. I don't want to stab myself in the face. Therefore it's going to be left to you guys to figure out that fucking difficulty is fucking relative all on your own. It shouldn't take long. Go try out for the NBA or something. That should drive the point home pretty quick.

Filiecs:
For most people, it has nothing to do with elitism.

A great many of the comments in these threads suggests otherwise.

Headdrivehardscrew:
Oh, and there's also the bit where people don't just jump to the bacon option, but out of some odd perception of injustice and lack of inclusiveness for the masses go for the YES vote, spicing things up with plenty of hatred, expressing how much they think little or downright despise people that like the game as is, calling them names and suggesting there is something wrong with their attitudes or brains. I think that's one of my main gripes with the more vocal proponents of 'easy mode'.

Chicken and the egg. Put down the myside bias for 5 minutes and go look at some of what the "fans" have had to say. Moochers, lazy, unable to "grasp" the mechanics, greedy, entitled, wanting to "bend the game to their will", stupid, "green eyed monsters"...I could go on and on and on.

You know how that kind of behavior gets characterized?

It gets characterized as elitist.

T3hSource:

EDIT: It just came to me that this discussion brought up by ignorant journalists is going to lose any value whatsoever once Namco start their marketing campaign:"Prepare...for the hardest game this decade!" since subtlety will be mostly thrown out the window,because the brand has too much popularity now,and subtlety doesn't do well for hype marketing according to the common marketing businessman.

"Prepare...for the hardest game this decade!"[1]

You know, you described yourself as 'just an outside viewer' - and yet you brought quite a lot of common sense and logic to the round table of this one square forum thread.

Yes, I am very much looking forward to Dark Souls 2, even though I don't even like the title. I just want more of what Demon's Souls and Dark Souls gave me - true gaming bliss. Great visuals. Scary stuff. Awesome creature design. A self-service lore that I could dig into at my own leisure. The sunset in Anor Londo. The white sands of Ash Lake. Just give me more of that and not break the game or the lore and see me giddy giddy happy one more time. Doesn't seem to be rocket science to me. It worked for two or three Resident Evil games. It worked for two or three Silent Hill games. Why should it not work for D* Souls?

[1] Now also featuring an easy mode!

Headdrivehardscrew:

Don't get me wrong, I really try to use truckloads of logic to bury my own emotions under. But, alas, so far, logic seems to be rare in this thread, and thoughts are imperfect, unfinished, not worked out and more of a, let's say, trigger-response fashion, mostly just rallying against the perceived 'elitism' of individuals that do, actually, enjoy the game as is.

Actually, no, "enjoying the game as is" isn't elitist. "Insisting that this is the only way anyone should ever enjoy the game", that's elitist.

Nobody's dissing you for enjoying the game the way it is. Nobody says you shouldn't enjoy the game the way it is. People just take issue with the "This is the one and only way to enjoy the game, and if you don't agree, you're WROOOOONG" attitude.

BloatedGuppy:

Filiecs:
In order for there to be an easy mode like you described, the game would have to be radically redesigned...

No, it wouldn't.

May the first person to respond to this post with "Yes but implementing an easy mode without damaging the game is impossible because of (bullshit reasons)" be buggered by clowns.

Beware of clowns.

Filiecs:
With Dark Souls, challenge IS the core part of the experience and changing it would affect many other parts of the game.

If I have to say "difficulty is relative" one more time I'm going to stab myself in the face. I don't want to stab myself in the face. Therefore it's going to be left to you guys to figure out that fucking difficulty is fucking relative all on your own. It shouldn't take long. Go try out for the NBA or something. That should drive the point home pretty quick.

Filiecs:
For most people, it has nothing to do with elitism.

You keep saying "No it wouldn't" but fail to even provide reasons as to why it wouldn't. Furthermore, you seem to flat out ignore our reasons.

Also, to address "difficulty is relative" I say "yes it is, to a point."
What is that point?
I believe the point that decides when game is objectively difficult is when a player who knows everything about the game can still fail if he fails to pay attention or takes an unnecessary risk.
I believe in this definition because attention is always something someone has the choice give a game at all times, but is hard to actually do. Just like taking unnecessary risks: It's easy for someone who knows everything about the game to identify them, but hard not to take them.

Under this definition dark souls would be considered mildly difficult.

Filiecs:
You keep saying "No it wouldn't" but fail to even provide reasons as to why it wouldn't. Furthermore, you seem to flat out ignore our reasons.

I have on multiple occasions explained how easy it would be to jack the stats of the main character, or simply add save functionality to an offline mode in order to create an easier, more user friendly and accessible experience. It routinely gets hand waved as "Well then it wouldn't even be Dark Souls any more!" or "I wouldn't want to play that, therefore it does not qualify". And then, 3 posts later, someone returns to "It would be impossible to add an easy mode without ravaging the mechanics". You guys have created a false dilemma where any easier mode is impossible in an attempt to justify your FEAR that adding an easy mode will compromise the normal mode. And that's all it is. Speculative fear. I'd be a lot more sympathetic towards it if it was presented as such, instead of these bullshit doomsday scenarios where tweaking a number for an easy mode causes the hard mode to collapse.

Filiecs:
Under this definition dark souls would be considered mildly difficult.

We can ponce and peen all day long about whether or not Dark Souls is "truly difficult". I don't think I'm necessarily in a good position to judge. I've been playing CRPGs since Ultima II was new on shelves. It's like a veteran doctor describing the ease of a particular surgery. If I'm attempting to be objective, I can most certainly detail many ways in which DS is a "difficult" game. Opacity of information is a huge and persistent problem. The controls are fussy. The margin for error is extremely low. The level designers delight in creating situations where first-time-through failure is almost guaranteed, and it might take many repetitions to figure out what is going on...repetitions that ensure plenty of backtracking through respawning foes...an activity that swiftly becomes tedious and punitive. There are a few reflex tests, mostly in the form of timing challenges, which would daunt aging gamers, people with illnesses, or just people with shitty reaction times.

Do I think it's the most devastatingly hard game ever? Of course not. Do I think it's way too hard/tedious for a great many people? I sure do. Do those people NEED to play the game? Of course not! Is it alright for those people to say "We sure would like an easier version of this game, since we're curious about it, but we find it too hard/tedious as it is"? Of course it is.

I straddle the fence on this issue, because I'm one of the people who would tell you that if Dark Souls isn't making you feel scared and lonely, you're not getting the best of Dark Souls. You're getting a watered down experience. But it's not FOR me to decide what the appropriate level of difficulty is for the rest of the world. I've seen enough gamers play enough games, on all different difficulty levels, to know that it's completely relative. I've had people come and say XCOM destroyed them on Normal, when I found Normal to be comically easy to the point of being deeply insulting. Does that mean Normal needs to be removed, so those people are forced to play on Classic or Impossible to get the REAL XCOM I deem worthwhile? What if I demanded that it be so, and claimed that if it wasn't made so, I would feel "alienated", and wouldn't buy future XCOMs, and went on long tirades about unified experiences and how all games don't need to be made for all people. What would I sound like, if I did that?

Filiecs:

I believe the point that decides when game is objectively difficult is when a player who knows everything about the game can still fail if he fails to pay attention or takes an unnecessary risk.

But there is no such game then, at all. "Perfect play" assumes you don't fail to pay attention, and you do not take unnecessary risks, and you do know everything you need to know to deal with the situation, and always make the decision that advances your long-term goal. Or in other words, in chess, assuming perfect play, white always wins.

I would reword that if I were you, because I think you know what you're trying to say, it's just a bit awkward; I suppose what you mean is that a game can be said to be "objectively" the more difficult the closer to "perfect play" you have to get in order to beat it. Of course, a game that cannot be beaten even with perfect play is unbeatable by definition.

I believe in this definition because attention is always something someone has the choice give a game at all times, but is hard to actually do. Just like taking unnecessary risks: It's easy for someone who knows everything about the game to identify them, but hard not to take them.

If they are "unnecessary", and the person knows they are unnecessary; assuming perfect play, a person will simply not take such risks.

Master_Fubar23:

JustanotherGamer:
You are calling me an Hardcore exclusionary Elitist Nazi that only wants games I like to be made witch is total bullshit
I want games to be made for people to enjoy. But we don't all like the same things you keep on eating your tripe and enjoy it and leave me the fuck alone and i'l keep on enjoying my juicy prime rib steak.

But no you want my steak to be taken away and replaced with the shitty gruel that you enjoy!?

And that's where people who know how to use their brain come up with a solution. You know, speaking of food... Outback knows people like prime rib and steak but want both so they offer a platter that gives a portion of each. This way people who only like the prime rib can get it, he ones who just want steak can indulge themselves, and lastly, the ones who want both CAN ALSO FUCKING ENJOY THIER MEAL. No one is taking your "hard" or "difficult" mode away by simply having an easy mode. The ONLY person that could would be YOURSELF if you choose to play easy (giving yourself "gruel"). Unintelligent elitists are only going make the DS series into a one trick pony and last time I checked... one trick pony businesses go under. Heck, didn't the lead person of the DS series already leave or is set to leave? *sigh* so many elitists, so many to educate, so many fucks being wasted... -_-

So the development of said game wont change at all to incorporate said cheese mode the game will be exactly the same? You mean it wont get dumbed down so much that all those hard to understand mechanics wont get removed? Hey most of these "gamers" can't even work out how to use those stats lets make it easy for them and just give them no choice in how their stats develop. They get 200 souls for sl2 and we boost up their vitality and endurance and now that part of the game is forever gone. Wow that's not changed hard mode at all has it nope...That's not what happened to tes look at resident evil it's got way more fans now and re6 was amazing right? silent hill 3 the best ever right!?.....Yep keep on piling the gruel all over my steak it's still steak right just has a horrible stench and lingering putrid taste slavered all over it.

You talk about choice you have the choice not to buy the game Fromsoft have the choice not to sell out, and the producer of Demons souls and Dark souls was forced to take a back seat because he didn't want to compromise his idea for the masses.....

JustanotherGamer:
So the development of said game wont change at all to incorporate said cheese mode the game will be exactly the same? You mean it wont get dumbed down so much that all those hard to understand mechanics wont get removed? Hey most of these "gamers" can't even work out how to use those stats lets make it easy for them and just give them no choice in how their stats develop. They get 200 souls for sl2 and we boost up their vitality and endurance and now that part of the game is forever gone. Wow that's not changed hard mode at all has it nope...That's not what happened to tes look at resident evil it's got way more fans now and re6 was amazing right? silent hill 3 the best ever right!?.....Yep keep on piling the gruel all over my steak it's still steak right just has a horrible stench and lingering putrid taste slavered all over it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

The world is full of games with varying difficulty levels. Many of them are excellent. Because you are afraid something will happen does not make it fait d'accompli that it will.

BloatedGuppy:

Filiecs:
You keep saying "No it wouldn't" but fail to even provide reasons as to why it wouldn't. Furthermore, you seem to flat out ignore our reasons.

I have on multiple occasions explained how easy it would be to jack the stats of the main character, or simply add save functionality to an offline mode in order to create an easier, more user friendly and accessible experience. It routinely gets hand waved as "Well then it wouldn't even be Dark Souls any more!" or "I wouldn't want to play that, therefore it does not qualify". And then, 3 posts later, someone returns to "It would be impossible to add an easy mode without ravaging the mechanics". You guys have created a false dilemma where any easier mode is impossible in an attempt to justify your FEAR that adding an easy mode will compromise the normal mode. And that's all it is. Speculative fear. I'd be a lot more sympathetic towards it if it was presented as such, instead of these bullshit doomsday scenarios where tweaking a number for an easy mode causes the hard mode to collapse.

Filiecs:
Under this definition dark souls would be considered mildly difficult.

We can ponce and peen all day long about whether or not Dark Souls is "truly difficult". I don't think I'm necessarily in a good position to judge. I've been playing CRPGs since Ultima II was new on shelves. It's like a veteran doctor describing the ease of a particular surgery. If I'm attempting to be objective, I can most certainly detail many ways in which DS is a "difficult" game. Opacity of information is a huge and persistent problem. The controls are fussy. The margin for error is extremely low. The level designers delight in creating situations where first-time-through failure is almost guaranteed, and it might take many repetitions to figure out what is going on...repetitions that ensure plenty of backtracking through respawning foes...an activity that swiftly becomes tedious and punitive. There are a few reflex tests, mostly in the form of timing challenges, which would daunt aging gamers, people with illnesses, or just people with shitty reaction times.

Do I think it's the most devastatingly hard game ever? Of course not. Do I think it's way too hard/tedious for a great many people? I sure do. Do those people NEED to play the game? Of course not! Is it alright for those people to say "We sure would like an easier version of this game, since we're curious about it, but we find it too hard/tedious as it is"? Of course it is.

I straddle the fence on this issue, because I'm one of the people who would tell you that if Dark Souls isn't making you feel scared and lonely, you're not getting the best of Dark Souls. You're getting a watered down experience. But it's not FOR me to decide what the appropriate level of difficulty is for the rest of the world. I've seen enough gamers play enough games, on all different difficulty levels, to know that it's completely relative. I've had people come and say XCOM destroyed them on Normal, when I found Normal to be comically easy to the point of being deeply insulting. Does that mean Normal needs to be removed, so those people are forced to play on Classic or Impossible to get the REAL XCOM I deem worthwhile? What if I demanded that it be so, and claimed that if it wasn't made so, I would feel "alienated", and wouldn't buy future XCOMs, and went on long tirades about unified experiences and how all games don't need to be made for all people. What would I sound like, if I did that?

This I can agree with you with. You are right that it is all speculative fear (based on anecdotal evidence as well) because an easy mode has not been added yet. However, the idea that it wouldn't ruin the game is also speculation.
It's just that finding out whether the speculation is valid would require resources.
You are also right that it is not IMPOSSIBLE for a Dark Souls easy mode to be implemented correctly, it's just that it seems like a very difficult thing to do. To me, at least.

However, with your XCOM example I would have to say that, while both games are difficult, XCOM is fundamentally about minimizing all possible risks while Dark Souls is fundamentally about being observant, learning, and overcoming challenges. Also, XCOM is meant to be initially played on lower difficulties before trying, say, impossible.
I can see your point, though.

The protection of Dark Souls probably has a lot to do with the fact that, unlike most games now days, it feels like and was designed around being one complete world and all modifiers of difficulty are implemented directly into the game.

I am very much reminded of Ulduar from WoW, actually. Its design shares a lot of similarities with the design of Dark Souls now that I think about it.
Hell, this whole argument reminds me of arguments about gradually lowering the difficulty of raids in WoW over time and the whole "dumbing down" of raids issue. In my opinion it actually ruined the game so I am cautious about making things that weren't originally designed to be easy, easier.

Then there is also the issue of the developers initial vision, which is what I believe should actually be the deciding factor in a choice like this.

Edit:

Vegosiux:

But there is no such game then, at all. "Perfect play" assumes you don't fail to pay attention, and you do not take unnecessary risks, and you do know everything you need to know to deal with the situation, and always make the decision that advances your long-term goal. Or in other words, in chess, assuming perfect play, white always wins.

I would reword that if I were you, because I think you know what you're trying to say, it's just a bit awkward; I suppose what you mean is that a game can be said to be "objectively" the more difficult the closer to "perfect play" you have to get in order to beat it. Of course, a game that cannot be beaten even with perfect play is unbeatable by definition.

If they are "unnecessary", and the person knows they are unnecessary; assuming perfect play, a person will simply not take such risks.

I didn't say a "perfect player" playing the game. I meant a human player with perfect physical coordination. Whether or not you pay attention to something or take a risk is completely mental and visual.

BloatedGuppy:

JustanotherGamer:
So the development of said game wont change at all to incorporate said cheese mode the game will be exactly the same? You mean it wont get dumbed down so much that all those hard to understand mechanics wont get removed? Hey most of these "gamers" can't even work out how to use those stats lets make it easy for them and just give them no choice in how their stats develop. They get 200 souls for sl2 and we boost up their vitality and endurance and now that part of the game is forever gone. Wow that's not changed hard mode at all has it nope...That's not what happened to tes look at resident evil it's got way more fans now and re6 was amazing right? silent hill 3 the best ever right!?.....Yep keep on piling the gruel all over my steak it's still steak right just has a horrible stench and lingering putrid taste slavered all over it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

The world is full of games with varying difficulty levels. Many of them are excellent. Because you are afraid something will happen does not make it fait d'accompli that it will.

Dear Guppy, Bloated, Esq.

I've been watching you do your thing for a little while now, and while I generally consider you to be an above-average intelligent and caring person, in this thread you've degenerated and deformed yourself into quite a bully; please don't jump to conclusions just now. Look at how you present your point. Your reasoning is pretty perfect for either a hypothesis or a crusade of the will where no other opinion matters, because, alas, it seems like you already know that your point of view, your opinion is really the only one that matters. When applied to a very specific case, subject or scenario, your approach might fall apart. Case in point: Dark Souls. You seem to skim over or just plain ignore each and every argument made against 'easy mode'. You cannot shake hands with a clenched fist, and one cannot whistle with a Colombian tie of false accusations, no matter how loose fitting it may be.

You make each and every one of us that does not agree with you look like a selfish bastard, an uebermensch antisocial nazi or a plain idiot that's sick in the head.

I think that's sub par. Not for everyone, not for everyone on this forum, but for you - it's one hell of a let down. You wouldn't believe how sad that makes me right now.

Filiecs:
The protection of Dark Souls probably has a lot to do with the fact that, unlike most games now days, it feels like and was designed around being one complete world and all modifiers of difficulty are implemented directly into the game.

I am very much reminded of Ulduar from WoW, actually. Its design shares a lot of similarities with the design of Dark Souls now that I think about it.

Hell, this whole argument reminds me of arguments about gradually lowering the difficulty of raids in WoW over time and the whole "dumbing down" of raids issue. In my opinion it actually ruined the game so I am cautious about making things that weren't originally designed to be easy, easier.

This is probably the strongest argument against tinkering with Dark Souls at all, the fact that the game is something of an MMO lite. WoW is indeed an analogue, but a better one is Everquest. You've got the same user-hostile interface, the same forbidding world, the same ugly death penalties, the same deadly creatures wandering seemingly "safe areas", etc, etc. It's Classic EQ right to the core. And that MP functionality does add something to the experience. You have your phantoms, you have your orange chalk, you have your invasions. All of it is part of the texture of the game. And when you have everyone sharing a multiplayer space, everyone is tied to the same set of rules, the same difficulty. Which is why discussions over MMO changes tend to be...uh...fiery.

I think an offline mode for DS would work, but it would definitely be a somewhat diluted experience. Is that better than no experience at all? That would be for the players to decide.

Headdrivehardscrew:
You make each and every one of us that does not agree with you look like a selfish bastard, an uebermensch antisocial nazi or a plain idiot that's sick in the head.

I think that's sub par. Not for everyone, not for everyone on this forum, but for you - it's one hell of a let down. You wouldn't believe how sad that makes me right now.

Head, you are throwing a strop. Take a deep breath. I am not "making" you look like anything. The worst I've done is hold up a mirror and invite people to consider the fact they may be a wee bit elitist, and how insulting you find that is entirely dependent on how devastating you find that charge. I've also said elsewhere that there are worse things to be than elitist about a video game. I have certainly never used any of the terms you are attempting to paraphrase, nor said anything that would directly imply them.

And you need to find a new metaphor. "Shake hands with a clenched fist" has already been used. It's old hat, my friend! Old hat!

if its bragging rights you want, turn off achievements for easy mode or reduce the amount you can get, everyone kinda wins in that respect

of course the game wouldnt be much without its difficulty and you could blow through it in like 2 hours so itd have to be bigger and have much more substance elsewhere making it a completely different game

I voted yes because sometimes I like to watch the world burn in a fiery inferno.

And I'll continue to watch this thread as two sides of the spectrum will never meet one another the more the anti anything goes on.

Filiecs:

Whether or not you pay attention to something or take a risk is completely mental and visual.

And thus...relative.

So that kind of doesn't support any point about "objective difficulty".

Eddy-16:

Akalabeth:
Nope, I bought a store-bought copy from Future shop, brand new. Or maybe Best Buy. One of the two.

You know what I had inside my copy?

Two pieces of paper.

1 is a double-sided advertisement, with one side for skyrim and the other side for Prey 2.

The other is at best described as a leaflet with a seizure warning, ESRB classifactions and the xbox controls ALL in french (I'm in Canada). No English insert, just the french one.

Pathetic.

Skyrim which I bought a month ago actually has a manual, and a map, if you can believe it. Amazing.

Just bad luck I suppose then or maybe regional differences, all 3 copies of Oblivion I've bought have had the 47 page manual and the map, all my friends had everything as well (we're all in the UK).

Yeah I dunno man, some guy in Malayasia must've missed a box on the conveyor (or wherever they package this stuff).
Still enjoyed the game anyway.

Well it looks like, just based on the interviews that they will only have a less challenging beginning area with maybe an optional tutorial in there somewhere to ease players into the game and get them "hooked".

So I would just stick with that because one of the main selling points is the "aura" of difficulty for the Souls games which might be seriously diminished with easy-mode boss battles and playthroughs on the interwebz.

JustanotherGamer:

Master_Fubar23:

JustanotherGamer:
You are calling me an Hardcore exclusionary Elitist Nazi that only wants games I like to be made witch is total bullshit
I want games to be made for people to enjoy. But we don't all like the same things you keep on eating your tripe and enjoy it and leave me the fuck alone and i'l keep on enjoying my juicy prime rib steak.

But no you want my steak to be taken away and replaced with the shitty gruel that you enjoy!?

And that's where people who know how to use their brain come up with a solution. You know, speaking of food... Outback knows people like prime rib and steak but want both so they offer a platter that gives a portion of each. This way people who only like the prime rib can get it, he ones who just want steak can indulge themselves, and lastly, the ones who want both CAN ALSO FUCKING ENJOY THIER MEAL. No one is taking your "hard" or "difficult" mode away by simply having an easy mode. The ONLY person that could would be YOURSELF if you choose to play easy (giving yourself "gruel"). Unintelligent elitists are only going make the DS series into a one trick pony and last time I checked... one trick pony businesses go under. Heck, didn't the lead person of the DS series already leave or is set to leave? *sigh* so many elitists, so many to educate, so many fucks being wasted... -_-

So the development of said game wont change at all to incorporate said cheese mode the game will be exactly the same? You mean it wont get dumbed down so much that all those hard to understand mechanics wont get removed? Hey most of these "gamers" can't even work out how to use those stats lets make it easy for them and just give them no choice in how their stats develop. They get 200 souls for sl2 and we boost up their vitality and endurance and now that part of the game is forever gone. Wow that's not changed hard mode at all has it nope...That's not what happened to tes look at resident evil it's got way more fans now and re6 was amazing right? silent hill 3 the best ever right!?.....Yep keep on piling the gruel all over my steak it's still steak right just has a horrible stench and lingering putrid taste slavered all over it.

You talk about choice you have the choice not to buy the game Fromsoft have the choice not to sell out, and the producer of Demons souls and Dark souls was forced to take a back seat because he didn't want to compromise his idea for the masses.....

Try reading other posts before you keep talking nonsense. I already stated in a previous post that there is no need to compromise the original experience while adding in an easy mode. I already wrote walls of text explaining this so go read the other 3 pages. Oh and enjoy your gruel since that's what you rather have apparently.

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