Keyboard and mouse are losing the FPS market

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well its diffidently KB&M for me. i have only played to FPS games on console (final fantasy VII:dirge of Cerberus on PS2. and crysis not sure which on X360) and i found both of them pretty hard. final fantasy had me aim for like 5 secs for a sniped head shot and ... lets not talk about crysis. maybe its because i have been a pc gamer for a like 13 years now (im 18 :D) and haven't played much FPS on my PS1 before. anyway i think that for me KB&M is the best for any kind of game. i find gamepads to be extremely little for racing. and extremely slow for rpgs. i think they are only good for sports and fighting games.

The moment you tell me how i can play a DotA Hero with a controller i'd give it a try just for the lulz.

im really...REALLY bad at aiming in FPS's with a contoller but a mouse?...ZING! head shots all around! i think its because the mouse is faster for me. quick reflexes i guess? i dont know but i know i perfer mouse and keyboard FPS over controller. any other game though, i prefer a controller, your left hand cramps after a while if you're playing a game on the keyboard. kinda sucks if its a really fun game :(

Daystar Clarion:
I grew up using controls and I think K&M is the better control option for FPS titles.

Nothing beats the pinpoint accuracy of a mouse, controllers just can't pull that off, however, I also think keyboards are worse than pads for movement and button placement.

In a perfect world, I'd be using a controller-esque analog stick and buttons in my left hand, while using a mouse in my right.

you mean a lil somem somem like this?
image

its called the razer Hydra, its on the expensive side and part of motion capture tech, but it works fine from what I have seen

If you want a much cheaper solution, get a Wiimote + nunchuck then a Bluetooth USB adapter.

Wiimotes operate over bluetooth, so you can sink the Wiimote to your PC and then map controls to its buttons or the nunchucks control sticks.

I don't see how mouse and keyboard can possibly by losing the FPS market, seeing as how anytime I get on a forum and ask a question about using a gamepad with a game (most recently being Battlefield 3 for singleplayer) I get flammed by almost every person responding to me asking why would I even bother using a gamepad or they simply say I'm a moron for wanting to use a controller and add nothing to the discussion. Personally, I prefer controllers to games that allow them, but I have no problem using a mouse and keyboard as long as there is a button to toggle running and walking. I like building my own pace in a game, so being able to get to my destination while also going at a pace that I can admire the atmosphere or enviroment is a must for me. Online is a little different. I never do too bad when using a gamepad online, in fact, I do pretty well. But, 90% of the time I use a mouse when playing online.

tippy2k2:
That's funny because I can't play a FPS on a computer because I find the keyboard/mouse setup makes them damn near unplayable :)

Frankly, I'm going to let the little girl in the taco commercial take over here...

image

Why not indeed taco girl....why not indeed.

If both were used, Mouse users would dominate. Without serious auto-aim someone with the sticks will be slaughtered by someone with a mouse. You can turn faster with a mouse, and also adjust your aim slower and more precisely. Every FPS I've played on consoles, I've wished that I could plug my USB mouse in and take care of business.

KB+M for life yo. I absolutely suck at controllers. Playing Halo 3 on a friend's xbox360 was akin to spending a few hours wrestling with the controller. I don't think dedicated console gamers realize that you can be as bad with a controller as they are with a mouse. Neither device is very newbie-friendly.

Desert Punk:

you mean a lil somem somem like this?

its called the razer Hydra, its on the expensive side and part of motion capture tech, but it works fine from what I have seen

If you want a much cheaper solution, get a Wiimote + nunchuck then a Bluetooth USB adapter.

Wiimotes operate over bluetooth, so you can sink the Wiimote to your PC and then map controls to its buttons or the nunchucks control sticks.

It looks dreadful for anything more than a base-level FPS. I see a whopping 2 buttons that you can press while moving. If those 2 buttons are reload and crouch, what do you do about sprint, use, abilities, weapons or grenades? You need to take your thumb off the stick for each of those, making it inferior to a keyboard.

I used a controller until I learned about advanced PC gaming, up until then I hadn't bought any big titles on PC and that all changed with Battlefield 1942 and Counter-Strike 1.5. I haven't looked back after then, I have a gamepad for my PC which I use for games like Super Meat Boy, Braid, and Jet Set Radio but if the game requires accurate shooting, I use key and mouse. I recently played a game that had auto aim, for keyboard and mouse or controller. After playing a few minutes, I got tired of auto aim because it slowed me down. Auto aim tries to hit people in the body but if you have played kb&m for any extended amount of time you learn that body shots are boring and are a waste of bullets.

I got used to keyboard and mouse extremely quickly, that said, I probably used the game with the toughest learning curve, CS 1.5. If you want to get good at FPS keyboard and mouse, you can download lots of old freeware games that have solid FPS controls. Or buy an old Medal of Honor game (I recommend Allied Assault) and just play through the campaign.

My issue with these which is better arguments is what determines which is better? Joysticks are more common so more people use them, they often have auto-aim which is easier, but they aren't more precise. There is a reason Counter-strike/TF2 haven't been overly popular on consoles, the games require fast accuracy which aren't easily attained on a gamepad.

What is the argument trying to prove, keyboard and mouse are much faster than gamepads, but keyboard and mouse in my experience can have higher levels of mastery. Anyone who ever played with any CPL or MLG pros on a pub server understands that the keyboard and mouse is far more advanced.

If the console market ever starts using keyboard and mouse I think PC will be in trouble, since most games aren't allowed to be modded.

Vault101:

Aaron Sylvester:
There's a very good reason why neither XBox 720 nor PS4 are showing any signs (not even rumors) of having optional KB/M support, despite having hardware+software platforms closer to actual PC's than ever before. And you know, us living in 2013 lol.

Both Microsoft and Sony know that if they allowed KB/M support on consoles, mouse-users would DESTROY gamepad users in multiplayer first person shooters to the point of humiliation.

why not just sell a K/M peripheral to get "a competitive edge"

Unreal tournament 3 for ps3 had K/M support. Did anyone play that? Or know if the K/M people destroyed the pad people?

Really, if the lack of support is purely to protect players with crappy controls, seems pretty weak. I suspect its a lil more complicated than that (pushing their own hardware).

A wise man told me "sticks are like moving your head, mouse is like moving your eyes". The PS Move with a machine gun is like shooting a fucking gun! Yeah, that's more fun that it has any right to be.

I've always preferred a controller because keyboard & mouse made the games too easy.

I grew up with both, but nowadays I only use mouse, fundamentally because the games I like have changed and for the most part controllers don't cut it.

When you're controlling a single object on a screen, such as platformers or fighting games or 2D shooters, controllers are much more immersive and fun because they're designed to be comfortable.

But as soon as you need to pick out objects on the screen, whether you're aiming a gun in an FPS or selecting dudes in an RTS or whatever, mouse wins. It feels organic because it's very much like the process you use to look around and focus on objects with your eyes. You can be "looking at something" quite precisely from pretty much as soon as you can see it, just like real life.

Trying to do this with a controller is just an extra layer of abstraction between you and the action you're trying to do.

I honestly prefer controllers to M/K, but hear me out first.

I don't play FPSs with my focus being a sharpshooter (except in TF2 which is difinitively better on M/K. I play scout and snipah) when I play FPSs, my focus is on timing and movement. I parkour around the maps in Halo and Borderlands. I can't stand CoD because it's all about split second shooting and not movement. I like Battlefield because the size of the map offers an entire strategy to be built on movement. There's a reason I adore Tribes Ascend. When I learned of that series it was like a dream come true.

I've also clocked enough time on console shooters that I just get the inherent strategy to using analogue sticks in the first person environment. So couple getting how to shoot with an analogue stick, and being staunch in the defense of the analogue stick as being far, far better than WASD for movement, it should be obvious why I prefer playing shooters on my xbox then on my laptop.

Well consoles may have more players, but PC has the games. With the exception of Halo, we got all the popular ones they have, but with the addition of, among other things, excellent AAA-indie shooters (those two are not an oxymoron) like Red Orchestra 2 and Natural Selection 2.

But yeah... why can't we have both? Right now we do and I'm glad.

DrunkOnEstus:
A wise man told me "sticks are like moving your head, mouse is like moving your eyes". The PS Move with a machine gun is like shooting a fucking gun! Yeah, that's more fun that it has any right to be.

Actually, a stick is more comparable to a pendulum.

To change the direction it has to lose momentum in direction a until it stops and then gathers momentum in direction b (if a and b are opposed). This is the movement the stick has to get from a to middle to b (there is always a slight delay until the movement starets). While the mouse has the instant change. As soon as I start moving my hand in the opposing direction the mouse reacts. It doesn't need to reach a certain distance before it starts reacting.

juyunseen:
analogue stick as being far, far better than WASD for movement

Never bought that.

Analogue stick alone maybe. But to add every angle to the 8 directions you have with WASD you have the mouse and pinpoint precision. And to have perfect movement in a game you need precision.

Though unless you want to move on Quake proplayer level it doesn't really matter and boils down to personal preference. I for one can't manage precise movement with analogue sticks due to the imprecision of camera control.

Aaron Sylvester:
There's a very good reason why neither XBox 720 nor PS4 are showing any signs (not even rumors) of having optional KB/M support, despite having hardware+software platforms closer to actual PC's than ever before. And you know, us living in 2013 lol.

Both Microsoft and Sony know that if they allowed KB/M support on consoles, mouse-users would DESTROY gamepad users in multiplayer first person shooters to the point of humiliation.

Yesterday I booted Crysis:Warhead campaign, except this time I plugged in my Logitech F310 (gamepad) for giggles - jesus christ it was difficult. With mouse I could simply rain back-to-back headshots due to enemies hardly moving, but with the gamepad I had to nudge the analog sticks constantly to adjust aim...nudge too little and I fell short, nudge too far and I'd keep scrolling past the enemy. It was like trying to aim a real-life howitzer/mortar using XY coordinates. "Holy shit" I thought, "people actually play competitively like this?".

Exactly. This is why I've been having so much fun with Dust 514. It's an open beta, and still looks pretty shit at the moment, but holy shit is it fun to mouse/keyboard murder a bunch of dual shock / sixaxis users to the point that it feels like you're cheating. You can always pick out the other m/k players too. I would love to see more of this :)

I dont see how there can even be any question that the mouse is more precise then a stick, aiming using a gamepad involves pushing a stick in a direction you want to face and relying acceleration to get you there, hopefully accurately. With a mouse, I mean, for the most part there's no comparison, it's just point and click, way more natural.

Now an example akin to yours: Fallout 3/NV with a pad, try to line up a long shot with a sniper rifle, bonus points for doing it without also strafing left or right to help, and more bonus points for actually tracking the target instead of just waiting for them to walk into the crosshairs. Now, try it with a mouse. Exactly.

Sure, m/k make you more precise in a fps, but I don't see that as a plus. All it means is that everyone's getting more easy headshots, dieing more quickly and it becomes almost completely twitch/reaction based with position, cover etc counting for less. Sometimes that needs to be compensated for by making players move faster and have more health, but either way it just becomes a different style of game.

If I want to drag "realism" into it too, it's impossible to move around a gun as fast and precisely as a mouse anyway, but that's fairly moot.

Besides, I can sit on a couch/bed/floor in any position while using a controller.

Porque no los....

tippy2k2:

image

fuck

In all seriousness, I started out playing on consoles and then I switched over to PC. I still play both. When I got used to playing with a keyboard and mouse, I noticed that it doesn't really matter. Both play the same way, and it all goes to preference. People that claim they can't use a controller, do what you tell every controller user to do: fucking practice. Listen to your own advice, don't just piss on something because it's different. It seems like every one of these controller haters were all PC gamers to start, so they never invested the effort to try and get used to a controller.

That being said, why the fuck does it matter which one is better? The same argument can be applied to every console war and every single high-horse "I'm a PC gamer so I'm automatically better than you!"

demoman_chaos:
If both were used, Mouse users would dominate. Without serious auto-aim someone with the sticks will be slaughtered by someone with a mouse. You can turn faster with a mouse, and also adjust your aim slower and more precisely. Every FPS I've played on consoles, I've wished that I could plug my USB mouse in and take care of business.

If that were the case, why would you care? If you truly believe that the mouse/keyboard combo gives you such an edge over me, why would it matter to you if I wanted to use my controller in a battle to the virtual death with you?

I played Shadowrun (a PC+360 cross-platform game that someone mentioned earlier in the thread a lot) and I went up against PC players using my 360 controller. I found the experience just fine and I could hold my own with no problem. I play better with a controller. You play better with a mouse and keyboard. Why does it HAVE to be one or the other?

Aaron Sylvester:
There's a very good reason why neither XBox 720 nor PS4 are showing any signs (not even rumors) of having optional KB/M support, despite having hardware+software platforms closer to actual PC's than ever before. And you know, us living in 2013 lol.

Both Microsoft and Sony know that if they allowed KB/M support on consoles, mouse-users would DESTROY gamepad users in multiplayer first person shooters to the point of humiliation.

Really? Are you sure? Dust514 has shown no signs of anything like that at all..........

This is easy.

I don't buy FPS games for consoles. Raised on source games, was tricked into buying an xbox, and then an xbox 360 for halo2 and 3, then quit consoles forever. my FPS is on the PC, while I got mario brothers on my Wii U. Let the children have their controllers. My money goes to games who make the game comfortable to play. I am not in either sony's nor microsoft's target audience. If they want my money, they will put a mouse and gamepad on the xbox 720.

tippy2k2:
If that were the case, why would you care? If you truly believe that the mouse/keyboard combo gives you such an edge over me, why would it matter to you if I wanted to use my controller in a battle to the virtual death with you?

I played Shadowrun (a PC+360 cross-platform game that someone mentioned earlier in the thread a lot) and I went up against PC players using my 360 controller. I found the experience just fine and I could hold my own with no problem. I play better with a controller. You play better with a mouse and keyboard. Why does it HAVE to be one or the other?

Of course it HAS to be one or the other, this IS the internet after all.
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!!!!!

bl4ckh4wk64:

fuck

In all seriousness, I started out playing on consoles and then I switched over to PC. I still play both. When I got used to playing with a keyboard and mouse, I noticed that it doesn't really matter. Both play the same way, and it all goes to preference. People that claim they can't use a controller, do what you tell every controller user to do: fucking practice. Listen to your own advice, don't just piss on something because it's different. It seems like every one of these controller haters were all PC gamers to start, so they never invested the effort to try and get used to a controller.

why the hell should I? I've played with a controller, its not "different" its "held back" like in real life trying to use a rifle while a 10kg monkey is hanging off the end and swinging around, I dont think any amount of "effort" is going to change that, why dont you take a controller and play against players with a M/K (I dont know if its possible but there should be some game about there that you can do it) and see

AC10:
Just reading the first article I don't understand the comparisons at all.
It's like "Counter Strike averages 100,000 players a day. BUT GEARS OF WAR 3 HAD 300,000 ON LAUNCH DAY! BAM! Take that, PC!" It then admits that the numbers are obviously skewed, as they dropped off significantly since launch. wut?

Yeah, the first article is a complete joke and none of the number comparisons make any sense, or are even remotely valid since it regularly compares sales across at least two consoles to retail sales for PC. And it's not just Valve's digital sales that don't get released; digital sales in general are almost never released.

The second article actually does an excellent job of pointing out that all of their examination of the numbers is little more than bullshit, though I did notice at least one error in the second article where they assume that the console L4D sales are across two consoles when it was only ever released on the 360. It still doesn't matter since the numbers are close between the platforms, and digital sales wouldn't be included of course.

As a general policy, unless you feel it's urgently important that it has to be said, if you think a thread is flamebait, don't make the thread.

Honestly the shooters of today are being consolited so much, they really are better played on a gamepad.

Mafia II, Black Ops come to mind. Really not fun with keyboard/mouse (I mean single player).

Crysis games are the opposite, they can be played with a gamepad but they really feel right with the keyboard and mouse.

Rage is great how it can be played both ways.

It really depends on how the game is made. Look up old interviews with Bungie about designing the first Halo. They built the whole thing around the gamepad. I.e. skill doesn't mean accuracy, but timing.

Let's call this thread what it is - PC vs console in disguise. For reasons that have been beaten to death already, KBM will always dominate in gameplay in an FPS scenario; analogue sticks simply don't have the combination of speed and precision you get with a mouse.

Personally? I was raised on Wolfenstein 3D, and no sane person attempted to play that with a Gravis GamePad. In fact, not needing the vertical movement meant that even keys were enough in that most of the time (and in Doom, for that matter). Of course, FPSs have come a long way since then; I remember a very brief attempt to play Quake III Arena at a mate's place using keys only and haven't really got on with the genre since, and I'm still pretty sure there hasn't been a proper FPS since Unreal Tournament (COD is a point-and-click shooting gallery). It's the dependence on KBM that's kept me away from console FPSs for so long, which in turn is what's mostly kept me away from consoles (PC master race, yo).

I'm firmly of the opinion that the vast majority of people will stick with the control scheme they started with: if the first FPS you played was on PC, the chances are you're stuck in your groove and won't be able to get your head round gamepad FPS-ing, and vice-versa.

What really irks me is why other people who use kb+mouse get so aggressive about it: they are two different markets that, to my knowledge, never cross each other except in one single game (Shadowrun). Some people complain about menu systems being designed for gamepads not mouse+kb, and in some cases that's true, but it's nothing to get worked up about.

Just chill :)

tippy2k2:
That's funny because I can't play a FPS on a computer because I find the keyboard/mouse setup makes them damn near unplayable :)

Frankly, I'm going to let the little girl in the taco commercial take over here...

image

Why not indeed taco girl....why not indeed.

I wish we could have both. I would love the option to use whatever you are most comfortable with. I would actually buy a console and play console games if they allowed me to use a mouse and keyboard when I wanted to. But although the console themselves can support mouse and keyboard, nearly NO console games will let you use them. For console developers it seems to be controller or nothing. I do not like controllers, I do not enjoy using them. I play my games on PC because that is the one platform that allows me to use whatever control method I like.

VanQQisH:
I'll continue to use my M&K until the day a better, more precise control scheme becomes available. That is, when I can input my conciousness directly into an avatar via Virtual Reality.

Sure, the controller may be good enough for a shooter like CoD or Halo but I dare you to attempt to Rocket Jump or land trick stabs in TF2 reliably without a K&M.

Have a talk with my Friend Deathbringer558 on steam. He can use a controller to rocket jump better than me using mouse and keyboard, and I'm pretty damn good at rocket jumping when my computer/internet isn't being absolute crap and lagging. As for trick stabs...I wouldn't know as I can't do those even with mouse and keyboard...I blame my crappy laptop for that not my skill at the game.

OT: its a moot point, its apples to oranges really..you cant compare them. mouse and keyboard are far more precise (though I don't have trouble using a controller without aim assist...hell I turn it off where I can
and prefer to not have it) but those that wont to use controllers will use them, those that don't will not. I see controllers as better then mouse and keyboard for platformers, Certain flight sims (ace combat series is the only one i can think of off the top of my head), 2D side scrollers, top down shooters, etc. but third person and first person shooters, mouse and keyboard are undoubtedly better for And arguably RPG's (I can argue why the mouse and keyboard arent definitively better..but i wont since I use them and prefer them in RPG's). But this thread is about First person shooters, upon which the mouse and keyboard combo is undoubtedly better then a controller.

Ars Technica's argument hardly needs rebuttal, they cite only 6 million out of 11 million playing Left 4 dead on console with a gamepad as a reason to ignore mouse+keyboard, when that is barely half. They point out how similar the numbers of concurrent daily users of TF2 and Halo are, being only 7% higher for halo.

And this is all very irrelevant as you can still play on PC with a gamepad. Steam's Big Picture mode is ALL ABOUT 100% gamepad support.

But I think to spite any prejudice at Bungie... Activision will insist on a PC release of some sort, eventually. They did so for all their COD series and of course they are partners with Blizzard (people forget the company is actually Activision-Blizzard) who is totally 100% committed to PC having make mega bucks releasing PC exclusives.

tippy2k2:
That's funny because I can't play a FPS on a computer because I find the keyboard/mouse setup makes them damn near unplayable :)

Frankly, I'm going to let the little girl in the taco commercial take over here...

image

Why not indeed taco girl....why not indeed.

That's what you get on PC. You can use either a gamepad or mouse+keyboard.

Steam has made a big deal of this with Big Picture Mode with very comprehensive gamepad controls.

But consoles don't give you that option... you can't even use gamepads with square thumbstick housings and hardly ever even get to remap controls.

best captcha ever: are you a human?

Puzzlenaut:
I'm firmly of the opinion that the vast majority of people will stick with the control scheme they started with: if the first FPS you played was on PC, the chances are you're stuck in your groove and won't be able to get your head round gamepad FPS-ing, and vice-versa.

What really irks me is why other people who use kb+mouse get so aggressive about it: they are two different markets that, to my knowledge, never cross each other except in one single game (Shadowrun). Some people complain about menu systems being designed for gamepads not mouse+kb, and in some cases that's true, but it's nothing to get worked up about.

Just chill :)

Well... it's HARD to chill when we see our only chance of getting a game with our preferred control input be sabotaged by some developer who says blatantly wrong things like mouse and keyboard are irrelevant after Halo. I mean they can't even release it on PC with clear focus on gamepad? I mean they've done that with games like Arkham Asylum/city and even the Street Fighter IV set.

How would you like it if you had the same happen to you? If a game you knew and loved playing with a gamepad only was playable with mouse and keyboard?

Then you'll get an idea of where we are coming from. It's not different markets, we all love these FPS game, we PC gamers are interested in games like Destiny but we don't want to have to use a gamepad and actually there are a lot of PC gamers who would want to play it on PC with a gamepad.

BTW: steam is campaigning hard for gamepad support and they are getting results, working very well with Big Picture mode. And on PC you have such a wide selection of gamepads available to you.

Those numbers seem a bit skewed let's be honest. Then again given you at any point can see the number of people playing a shooter on steam I think you can view that yourself.

There's no contest, if you're looking to aim better it's going to be better & easier with a mouse, that's not to say it's preferable in some cases of just wanting to sit back. But the shooters typically are skewed on console to allow players easier shooting with the analog sticks, auto-aim & enemies who for some reason seem to take a long time aiming and jumping left and right thinking about shooting you, so it's kind of ...insulting playing on a console with some games. You really feel babied when they have enemies doing that crap.

Kinitawowi:
Let's call this thread what it is - PC vs console in disguise. For reasons that have been beaten to death already, KBM will always dominate in gameplay in an FPS scenario; analogue sticks simply don't have the combination of speed and precision you get with a mouse.

Yeah, I've been playing a lot of Red Dead Redemption and I'm using "Expert" aim, so no lock-on.

Le-sigh

I have fiddled with every setting, even tried with and without one of those "FPS Freek" thumbstick extensions. I have HUNDREDS of hours, I cannot make it work without in game crutches like the dead-eye "slow-mo" or "

I've come to realise that the slow-mo ability in RDR isn't just a perk, it's a down right necessity without the lock-on of the aim which I don't trust for how often it targets an innocent and sabotages my honour-gauge. But shots I get consciously get with a mouse. Oh how I wish I could play Red Dead Redemption with true mouse aim... I'd feel like a real wild west gun-slinger.

That's the thing, with thumbstick aiming there are have to be so many auto-aiming elements, it's taking away control from the game, it's taking away agency. Or obvious cheats like slowing down time SO MUCH. RDR the dead-eye has to slow it down 10x it's so slow. But I cannot get the speed and precision with thumbstick.

There it goes beyond preference, the game would be totally different with mouse aim. You'd be able to make the shots you actually get in the game of distant moving targets without needing to practically freeze time nor have the reticule lock-on.

This is most stark with Max Payne 3 on PC, switching from gamepad to mouse, and in the end with a mouse I stopped using the slow mo at all. I could get the shots easier just at normal speed and found things like the slow-mo-dives just a liability half the time except where the game contrived to have me in the open.

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