Anita Sarkeesian + Hitman Absolution = Epic Fail

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bobleponge:
"Look, it's not our fault players are having sex with kids in our game! Our game is about having sex with ADULTS, so we programmed it so you could have sex with anyone. Of course we're going to have kid NPCs though, it wouldn't be believable otherwise! Besides, you lose points if you have sex with the kid NPCs!"

(Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement." Making you feel guilt for callously ending an innocent human life, in a way that happens all the time and rarely receives any sort of justice... now that's discouragement. I'd like to see one of these "dark, gritty, mature" games try that.)

Realistically how the fuck is that supposed to work in any practical way?

In one level you will encounter dozens of guards that get between you and your target. Suppose you take the guns blazing route and kill anyone who tries to stop you. How are you gonna make the player feel guilty about all the guards they just murdered? How about any civilians that they kill in the rampage? Go through all 20+ backstories at the end in an unskippable cutscene?

"Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement."

It is, it's just no effective discouragement for everyone. Blood Money had good discouragement systems, if you murder everyone the clean up costs eat into your profits, if you're sloppy you may leave witnesses which makes you more likely to be recognized in future levels and if you're really good, follow certain rules and become a silent assassin you get a reward. None of this makes you feel guilty about the people you kill though.

bobleponge:
"Look, it's not our fault players are having sex with kids in our game! Our game is about having sex with ADULTS, so we programmed it so you could have sex with anyone. Of course we're going to have kid NPCs though, it wouldn't be believable otherwise! Besides, you lose points if you have sex with the kid NPCs!"

So maybe the solution is no Women in games at all, you know incase someone does commit a violent act against a female NPC and there's a chance someone could find it offensive even if they never see it but would know it's possible.[1]

Talking about the whole Kids thing we do very much treat children differently in reality and I mean vastly differently to other adults for various reasons.

bobleponge:

(Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement." Making you feel guilt for callously ending an innocent human life, in a way that happens all the time and rarely receives any sort of justice... now that's discouragement. I'd like to see one of these "dark, gritty, mature" games try that.)

Actually weird that you mention that.

An intern at Double fine made this little gem

There may also be a game about it in the Molyjam archives but there's a lot of content there to go through.

[1] I am of course joking here and making a deliberately absurd statement

bobleponge:
"Look, it's not our fault players are having sex with kids in our game! Our game is about having sex with ADULTS, so we programmed it so you could have sex with anyone. Of course we're going to have kid NPCs though, it wouldn't be believable otherwise! Besides, you lose points if you have sex with the kid NPCs!"

(Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement." Making you feel guilt for callously ending an innocent human life, in a way that happens all the time and rarely receives any sort of justice... now that's discouragement. I'd like to see one of these "dark, gritty, mature" games try that.)

I know I already commented on this but I just noticed ... you just compared women to children. Full stop. That we should treat them with kids gloves and make an exception for their representation. Women can be cruel vicious monsters, they are not kids, they are adults and do not need some kind of special protection.

bobleponge:
"Look, it's not our fault players are having sex with kids in our game! Our game is about having sex with ADULTS, so we programmed it so you could have sex with anyone. Of course we're going to have kid NPCs though, it wouldn't be believable otherwise! Besides, you lose points if you have sex with the kid NPCs!"

(Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement." Making you feel guilt for callously ending an innocent human life, in a way that happens all the time and rarely receives any sort of justice... now that's discouragement. I'd like to see one of these "dark, gritty, mature" games try that.)

In the context of "Hitman" though the whole point of the '47' character is that he's been conditioned so that he doesn't exactly feel remorse, he's pretty much an ultimate weapon. Part of the evolving story is him gradually getting some of his humanity back, though at the end of the day he can't change what he is. Creating some kind of major guilt trip over killing wouldn't really fit into the context of the game or it's narrative for the most part. That said we're talking about what is a very dark hero concept, and something that is pretty much against the tenets of society, which is why it's an "M" rated game series above and beyond the simple inclusion of violence.

As far as the sexual comments you made above, that battle has already been ongoing to be honest, so it doesn't make for very good sarcasm. A lot of Japanese games and those made from parts of the world with much lower ages of consent have indeed run into problems with people getting upset about pedophilia or potential pedophilia. This is to say nothing of the "Second Life" battles over so called "ageplay" and people creating underage avatars and animation sets specifically to have sex and/or engage in virtual prostitution. The defense of which has involved things like how the person pretending to be a child isn't actually a child, so it shouldn't count... it's a giant mess, but the point is we've already seen this kind of thing as well.

Speaking entirely for myself I tend to draw a line between "children" and "teens" when it comes to such things even if a lot of society does not do so. The way I see it is that teens are developing sexually, and are going to have sex no matter what anyone does. As a result I tend to be a supporter of things like distributing condoms in schools, along with better sex education, and things like that, as opposed to trying to force abstinence programs and the like. The way I see it is teens having sex with teens, including the pitfalls involved, are part of growing up and learning about life. I do however have a big problem with ADULTS getting involved with teens. As "mature" as a lot of people like to think teenagers are, at the end of the day you wind up with some 16 year old girl going with a 30 year old dude and it's a recipe for disaster, especially if as a young idealist she thinks this guy is going to be with her forever or take care of her just because he said so at some point. Those kinds of lopsided relationships tend to end in disaster, and like it or not teens with limited resources are easy for an adult with better resources (money to spend, etc...) to exploit. Things tend to become a bit touchier when it comes to young adults within a couple of years like a 17 year old with an 18 or 19 year old in my opinion.

To put all of that into a more mainstream context, as general rule a video game that say has teenagers who aren't platonic is very similar to say the "Porky's" or "American Pie" movie series, or various horror movies or whatever, and really given that society already has some degree of acceptance for this as you can tell it really isn't that big a deal if you say have a video game dating simulator where a character in high school can say score with another character in high school.... and really while there are exceptions, this is mostly where such things tend to go.

To put things into perspective, someone mentioned say Rikku in "Final Fantasy X" being 15, and dressing provocatively (and honestly, look at how a lot of 15 year olds dress IRL, whether you approve or not, it's not exactly unheard of). Consider that most of the cast of "Final Fantasy X" are all young and around the same basic age level, pretty much within a few years of her. I think the oldest cast members are Wakka and Lulu who are pretty much committed to each other and they are like what? Early 20s? As a result something like that doesn't wind hitting my alarm buttons, since your pretty much dealing with a teenage romance when you get down to it (and it's not like this game actually goes into porno territory to begin with).

In the TV series "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" most people don't really think about it, but by the time Buffy has graduated high school she's already had an affair with an ancient vampire (Angel) who looks about 30 but is actually centuries old. I don't think the show specifies but consider this had been going on a couple of seasons before graduation, including the whole "he comes back from hell with a soul, ooops he turned evil, ooops now he's good again" ongoing arc. This means at the very beginning when she does it with Angel, which is a big plot point and catalyst for those events she's about 15 or 16. As a general rule this has been permitted because it's fantasy despite being illegal and immoral... and well, it's one of the biggest cult TV shows of all time. Approve or disapprove the ship has already sailed here and I don't see it making a big deal if a video game does something similar.

On the other hand if you want to get creepier in video games, I look at say the "Xenosaga" series where you have say the thing between Ziggy and Momo which I get the impression wasn't exactly staying entirely platonic. Then of course we've got "Kid" who is an adult in a child's body who goes around with an entourage of babes who basically worship him and I sort of got the impression that wasn't exactly platonic either. Things like that represent the exception and get to the point where I'm thinking the envelope is being pushed as your dealing with characters who are pre-teen, and should be pre-sexual, at least physically. So basically the exceptions exist, but again this series doesn't exactly show anything happening or get particularly explicit (it's at best implied).

The point here is that the analogy isn't the best one. I suppose one could say "there shouldn't be graphic violence or teenage sex in video games", but then again a number of people have been saying that about all media for decades and it's been an ongoing issue. For the most part this is why you have warning labels. It's also why going by those labels an actual teenager shouldn't be consuming material just because it involves teenage characters. Part of it is because adults can draw the line between something that's fantasy, and being presented as acceptable or being encouraged. Whether they do or not, arguably real people the age of the teenage victims at "Camp Crystal Lake" should not be watching "Friday The 13th" movies and they are labeled accordingly. If parents do not listen, and nobody heeds the advisory that's an entirely separate issue. :)

Understand in something like "Hitman" the lead character is not being presented as a role model, indeed the situation is presented as being messed up on all ends, starting with the conditioned demons in his head. Likewise your typical horror movie isn't selling outrageous teen behavior as being a good thing (and indeed if you analyze them, most are morality plays, where those who misbehave are "punished" by the killer of the piece, which while obvious to an adult, and a trope which today is heavily subverted after the success of things like 'Evil Dead', this might not be obvious to a kid, so you know... again the advisory).

Of course then again I am a "Piers Anthony" fan and if you've ever read his stuff, a lot of it is pretty much a huge analysis of sexual politics, and he gets even weirder because he kind of sets up to shock with the whole "okay, well, you thought that was pushing it, and I barely sold it as being acceptable, wait until you get a load of this".

bobleponge:
"Look, it's not our fault players are having sex with kids in our game! Our game is about having sex with ADULTS, so we programmed it so you could have sex with anyone. Of course we're going to have kid NPCs though, it wouldn't be believable otherwise! Besides, you lose points if you have sex with the kid NPCs!"

(Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement." Making you feel guilt for callously ending an innocent human life, in a way that happens all the time and rarely receives any sort of justice... now that's discouragement. I'd like to see one of these "dark, gritty, mature" games try that.)

Sooo... we should treat women like children? Hands off approach? With very limited meaningless interactions, inability to cause harm directly, immune to indirect harm, no meaning to the character what so ever, safely conservatively clothed so no skin below neck and above hands can be seen?

There are hyperbolas that make sense and then there are hyperbolas that make no sense what so ever. Your falls in second category.

Ironshroom:
Rikku is 15....? I've not played X in a long while, but I don't ever remember her being that young. Entirely possible though, playing that game when I was like 7 or whatever doesn't exactly help the memory....

Lots of FF characters are surprisingly young.
Zidane and Garnet from IX are 16.
Basically everyone in VIII is 17 or 18.
Tidus and Yuna are 17 and Rikku is 15.

Therumancer:

As far as the sexual comments you made above, that battle has already been ongoing to be honest, so it doesn't make for very good sarcasm. A lot of Japanese games and those made from parts of the world with much lower ages of consent have indeed run into problems with people getting upset about pedophilia or potential pedophilia. This is to say nothing of the "Second Life" battles over so called "ageplay" and people creating underage avatars and animation sets specifically to have sex and/or engage in virtual prostitution. The defense of which has involved things like how the person pretending to be a child isn't actually a child, so it shouldn't count... it's a giant mess, but the point is we've already seen this kind of thing as well.

Why does that stuff need defending? It's fiction, who cares. The only possible arguments against it AFAIK are unsubstantiated claims about the real world effects of it or "I don't like it therefore it should be banned"

bobleponge:
"Look, it's not our fault players are having sex with kids in our game! Our game is about having sex with ADULTS, so we programmed it so you could have sex with anyone. Of course we're going to have kid NPCs though, it wouldn't be believable otherwise! Besides, you lose points if you have sex with the kid NPCs!"

(Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement." Making you feel guilt for callously ending an innocent human life, in a way that happens all the time and rarely receives any sort of justice... now that's discouragement. I'd like to see one of these "dark, gritty, mature" games try that.)

So what you're saying is.... don't have games where you can kill people period because killing someone in a video game is somehow wrong? Can you not honestly tell how ridiculous you sound? They're just fucking pixels and code, they do not exist. "Killing" them should have absolutely no effect on a completely sane, rational, and well adjusted person.

TopazFusion:

WhiteNachos:

TopazFusion:
Anita should have used footage from the previous Hitman game, Blood Money, instead.
That game is rife with examples of the sort of thing she's talking about.

image

Scantily-clad women standing around, who serve no other purpose than for fully-clothed male NPCs to ogle at them. Objectified and sexualized women who are the very definition of "background decoration".
One of them even serves as your target.

And you can't even argue that they're "strippers" in a "strip club", so you would "expect" them to be there, ... because they're not strippers, and it's not a strip club.
So, why are they dressed like that?


There's also that other mission, that takes place at a 'porn mansion' in the freezing cold Rocky Mountains, which also has scantily-clad women standing around, with fully-clothed men ogling at them.
Though, in that particular case, it being a 'porn mansion', maybe you could argue that they're "part of the background decoration"... But whatever.

Have you never heard of Hugh Heffner? That mission was clearly a take on him and his mansion.

True. And I admit that's the weaker of the two examples I presented.

The stronger example is the one included in the screenshot above. That 'masquerade party' mission, full of scantily-clad women.
It's not a reference to anything, ... porn mansions, strip clubs, or anything else. And how many masquerade parties have you been to, that have women dressed like that?

Well, the thing is that none of us are rich enough to wind up at a party of that quality, "47" is pretty much operating at the top of the totem pole, and these kinds of backgrounds are pretty much showing how wealthy and powerful the characters he's interacting with, or targeting are.

Having worked casino security, I've seen some aspects of this, nothing that has gone that far because nobody rich enough to put something like that on is going to be renting a casino ballroom, but you do see some rather impressive set ups.

The thing is that modeling agencies and the like make their money by hiring girls out to parties and the like, specifically to create scene dressing. The "Playboy Bunnies" themselves are pretty much an organization of world class "party girls" which is what we're literally talking about... girls hired to go to parties and help create a
scene, entertain clients, etc. Some of the groups I've dealt with at the casino for example DID hire models and such
to act as eye candy, dance with/dry hump tractors at say an agway show and similar things.

Let's say your a world class crime lord, and for whatever reason your holding a big party where your going to be inviting a few world class arms dealers, the biggest drug dealer on the west coast, the biggest drug dealer on the west coast, connections from the Chinese mob, a few corrupt buddies high up in the KGB, and whatever else. Chances are you can say drop $20 million and hire a couple busloads of playboy bunnies to show up in coordinated theme costumes. Heck, most modeling agencies would do almost anything to land a gig like that, and most models do almost anything to attend and be part of it.

I mean granted, in the real world it would be more along the lines of a rich CEO, entertaining other really rich people, with half the point being to show off how obnoxiously rich he is, but in the scope of a video game it works out more like the above because it's a more exciting environment.

One of the problems with a lot of these arguments about girls just being there for eye candy, is that in real life, especially in situations like this, girls literally line up to do those jobs. Playboy international, Jaegermeister (who has run "The Jaegerettes"), Elite Modeling, and other groups like that aren't exactly engaging in human trafficking or forcing these women into servitude. A lot of women, especially those with really good looks, have no compunctions about using those looks to make a living, especially seeing as they can make more money than most of us would make in a month showing up for the right events for a couple of hours.... of course we're talking about very high end stuff which is uncommon, most gigs for this kind of thing aren't anything like that.

Now, to go a little further with this, even if you want to move beyond "scene" into saying your dealing with an outright sex party, that in of itself would be really easy to do as well. A lot of big porn studios have girls who will do porn movies "on demand" for clients who pay and/or agree to even make an *ahem* art film with them (which can be a weird legal technicality). Nevada has some large, world class bordellos also. You could easily set it up by spending your $20 million to hire tons of escorts out of Nevada (it's not likely they would be caught if you were flying them somewhere else), or just outright rent the people from a porn studio for your party... then there you go, you've got your sexy party people in theme costumes for the VIPs, more than willing to take anyone into a side room.

This kind of thing is not common, and we are talking about a video game, but the very existence of or impossibility of such things isn't where I feel I need to aim my suspension of disbelief when it comes to games like this. It's all the stuff going on in combination with it.... and as I said, I think it's not just about the eye candy, but also to kind of sell the bad guys/targets, by showing they can afford to blow money like this, and presumably do it all the time. The idea being that the bad guy say promotes foreign wars with weapon sales where thousands of people die every day, so he can sit around with other similar people and throw elaborate parties where he fills the house with models and porn stars. It adds to the feeling of justice when you finally show the target the business end of a silverballer.

Knight Templar:
I have played Absolution, there are many times when the game offers me a solution to my problem and even encourages me to use it, when that option makes my score go down. There is for many events in that game nothing but practical upsides, where the score may go down, but the action is implicitly encouraged.

One of the more set up kills involves a rifle, but that also lowers my score, it would be absurd to suggest that the gun placed where I don't need to move in order to get a kill isn't being offered to me as a way to solve my problems.

You shouldn't go "look at the score go down you dumb broad", that is the most irrelevant and ineffective way of guiding the player in the entire game.

I'm not a huge Hitman fan, but I've played around with them in the past, and I'll say that I think your sort of missing the point. Simple progression is easy, 47 is a powerful character and can complete his missions in a large number of ways. Heck, in some cases you can walk right in the front door and just kill everyone and progress. Part of the fun of the game though is to figure out ways of doing things quietly and efficiently as opposed to just getting it done and moving on. In many cases the most obvious methods are simply very average overall, the game encourages experimentation.

Now, one of the reasons I never became a huge fan of the series, was sort of for the same reason I never really got into "Dishonored". The game presents you with a huge variety of things to play with, but ultimately punishes you for using them if you want things to turn out for the best in the end. In the end you get a lot of fun stuff and a cool sandbox of sorts to play with, but if your going to finish the game "seriously" you pretty much need to reload after you experiment with the more awesome and fun options because the game slaps you for being naughty in the long term.

A recurring joke for some people like me is that Agent 47 is pretty much an engineered badarse who acts like a wuss. It seems like all the options of what he COULD do exist to more or less sell the character, when really to do well at it, you pretty much need to be fairly sneaky and obtuse... and games that encourage that are fine, I just tend to dislike it when it comes in the form of giving you a bunch of toys to use, and a place to play with them, and then telling you not to because of some kind of arbitrary karmic retribution. 47 and Corvo have a hundred ways to kill, but ultimately always go for the same types of takedowns and non-lethal weaponry... kind of boring. In Corvo's case I find it amusing that he might say have a gun in his scary mask for example, but god forbid you actually shoot someone with it... that could contribute to dooming the entire city you see.

Colour Scientist:

Lots of FF characters are surprisingly young.
Zidane and Garnet from IX are 16.
Basically everyone in VIII is 17 or 18.
Tidus and Yuna are 17 and Rikku is 15.

Well bugger my bumblebees bread-bins. I seriously had no idea. How old is Terra then??????

Ironshroom:

Colour Scientist:

Lots of FF characters are surprisingly young.
Zidane and Garnet from IX are 16.
Basically everyone in VIII is 17 or 18.
Tidus and Yuna are 17 and Rikku is 15.

Well bugger my bumblebees bread-bins. I seriously had no idea. How old is Terra then??????

Either 18 or ageless depending whether she is human or esper. But it's all pointless. So what if they FF characters are those ages. They are meant for poeple of those ages to identify with them (originally).

As fir their clothes... it's Japan. Society that wasn't as repressed as western world so they don't really give a F about it.

WhiteNachos:

Therumancer:

As far as the sexual comments you made above, that battle has already been ongoing to be honest, so it doesn't make for very good sarcasm. A lot of Japanese games and those made from parts of the world with much lower ages of consent have indeed run into problems with people getting upset about pedophilia or potential pedophilia. This is to say nothing of the "Second Life" battles over so called "ageplay" and people creating underage avatars and animation sets specifically to have sex and/or engage in virtual prostitution. The defense of which has involved things like how the person pretending to be a child isn't actually a child, so it shouldn't count... it's a giant mess, but the point is we've already seen this kind of thing as well.

Why does that stuff need defending? It's fiction, who cares. The only possible arguments against it AFAIK are unsubstantiated claims about the real world effects of it or "I don't like it therefore it should be banned"

To be honest I think most of what you quoted above shouldn't be defended, and I already explained my thoughts on children vs. teens. To be honest with you I do not think the damage done when people have sex with the pre-sexual is "unsubstantiated". When I was in residential facilities I met, and dealt with, a lot of kids who were the result of such abuse, and as someone who was attacked by an older kid at the age of 6 let's just say even if my mind blocked out the details it has had a profound effect on me.

I personally do not think there is any way to say having sex with an 8 or 9 year old is fine, or that someone of that age is even capable of understanding things to the point of giving informed consent.

Teenagers are different, as I explained my personal attitude on it is pretty much teens with others in their own general age group, I think adults and teens tend to be emotionally very different, despite how mature and worldly teens tend to see themselves. An adult can fairly easily exploit a teenager if they know what they are doing, and the damage done can be pretty extreme. While it's true some teenagers might be capable of an adult relationship, the overwhelming majority are not, but most probably think they are (which is half the problem). As laws and policies can't be subjective my basic attitude is that this is a no-no, and that if say some 40 year old and a 16 year old think they can have something, then waiting 2 years is probably a good way of proving it. When it's teen on teen, it's fairly parallel playing field, and your not going to stop it anyway (which is a big part of my thinking believe it or not, I'd rather give them condoms for example, than try and force hardcore abstinence and then have them all go around doing it anyway without them).

To be blunt, I personally have an issue with someone simulating a personal crime like this, say engaging in age play where the "fun" of it is to coax an underage child into sex behavior or something like that. Not to mention the damage such things are going to do if you succeed.

While opinions vary I feel there is far more detachment between say a general array of violent crimes, especially when exaggerated like in say "Grand Theft Auto".

Now, as an important exception I will mention that in the realm of pure fantasy exceptions can exist by the way they are defined. Piers Anthony is a good example of someone who likes to sell/push the envelope with this at times. Perhaps a good example some people might be familiar with is the whole "Pretty Sammy" factor. That is to say an alien or creature like a pixie, who happens to look child-like, but isn't actually a child, and isn't in the same process of emotional and identity development, and despite how it looks actually has a sexually developed body (ie no physical damage is going to be done by the act). While she has been defined differently due to all of the various version of the character and different "Tenchiverses" Pretty Sammy is a good example because she has been defined as being an immortal who is actually hundreds or thousands of years old and merely chooses to look like that with the body being a manifestation of what she wants to look like (please note this is not how she's always defined). If you take that definition of the character it's fair to point out that there is no real reason why she couldn't choose to enter into
a relationship or have sex with someone. Certain pixies, faeries, deity-type characters, aliens, etc... can all fit this definition. Piers Anthony once had a situation where a 4 year old (I think it was) had sex with an ice demon, but the 4 year old was "The Unicorn Adept" and being part unicorn aged by their standards and thus hit maturity astoundingly quickly despite having a rather dimuitive build, given that an "ice demon" in this world was basically a living construct of ice (like an elemental) they actually had to use magic to copulate if I recall... but as I said Piers Anthony does stuff like that just to mess with people I think. In Xanth (a different series, the other one was "Adept" series") he even got worse with things like "how do you get a winged centaur... well it turns out a regular centaur and a hippogryph both happened to both drink from the same love spring..." thankfully that was kept mostly to background details, but I still need brain bleach for it making me have to think of the mechanics of the act...

You might disagree with me, but as a general rule I see no real defense for having sex with the pre-sexual. I don't care if it's "fake" or not, I think it's just flat out wrong. The fantasy stuff above is not my cup of tea, but I can at least sort of accept it's right to exist when it's done correctly. When I say "done correctly" I generally mean involving characters/species that aren't supposed to be permanently locked into a permanent childlike emotional and mental state along with it, which still opens up all kinds of questions about exploitation. For example your typical fairy might be whimsical or whatever, but can suddenly get very serious usually and show it's age, and despite how she acted, the version of Pretty Sammy above was just acting, as it was made clear at her core she was quite ancient and quite mature. Basically a big part of this is "could this person knowingly consent to this, and understand it", a child, or someone who is on that level, pretty much cannot. Basically if I wouldn't trust a person to more or less conduct their own affairs and be able to take care of themselves because of their mental or emotional development, I would not trust their ability to consent to sex or pursue a relationship and they should be "off limits".

That's just what I think. It's why for example I'm very much against child porn, but feel that when it comes to comics and illustrations and such a depiction of something that might be underage and sexual shouldn't be banned outright, as it comes down to the context. An example would be say some of the classical depictions of cherubs or cupid which aren't banned because of context, which can also be applied to certain things like pixies and fairies. But on the other hand if your say dealing with porno comics dealing with little kids who are supposed to be little pre-sexual kids as opposed to something else that just looks that way and doesn't actually act childlike, then yeah, as far as I'm concerned drop the hammer.

Generally agree with the sentiment Anita puts forward, but as average as Hitman: Abs was, there are some misguided points here. But I don't support Anita's general message on the grounds that we're identical twins that simply must be in sync on every issue, I support her general message because I think it's worthy and important to the culture.

carnex:

Ironshroom:

Colour Scientist:

Lots of FF characters are surprisingly young.
Zidane and Garnet from IX are 16.
Basically everyone in VIII is 17 or 18.
Tidus and Yuna are 17 and Rikku is 15.

Well bugger my bumblebees bread-bins. I seriously had no idea. How old is Terra then??????

Either 18 or ageless depending whether she is human or esper. But it's all pointless. So what if they FF characters are those ages. They are meant for poeple of those ages to identify with them (originally).

As fir their clothes... it's Japan. Society that wasn't as repressed as western world so they don't really give a F about it.

Chill out, we were just talking about their ages as a point of interest.

Colour Scientist:

carnex:

Ironshroom:

Well bugger my bumblebees bread-bins. I seriously had no idea. How old is Terra then??????

Either 18 or ageless depending whether she is human or esper. But it's all pointless. So what if they FF characters are those ages. They are meant for poeple of those ages to identify with them (originally).

As fir their clothes... it's Japan. Society that wasn't as repressed as western world so they don't really give a F about it.

Chill out, we were just talking about their ages as a point of interest.

Not agitated in slightest, just answering in spirit of topic.

But you know, you do have a point. I do have to chill out from reading this topics. I stood away from this one for longest time as, at first, it was as pointless as one can get but as usual topics drift and somehow it lured me in again. I really need more to take short hiatus on this topics.

P.S. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to children before they hit puberty. While it's still very wrong to have sex with 13 years old and problematic to be even sexually attratcted to them, it's not pedophilia. Just to clarify that.

bobleponge:
"Look, it's not our fault players are having sex with kids in our game! Our game is about having sex with ADULTS, so we programmed it so you could have sex with anyone. Of course we're going to have kid NPCs though, it wouldn't be believable otherwise! Besides, you lose points if you have sex with the kid NPCs!"

(Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement." Making you feel guilt for callously ending an innocent human life, in a way that happens all the time and rarely receives any sort of justice... now that's discouragement. I'd like to see one of these "dark, gritty, mature" games try that.)

image

Games can represent difficult subject matter. All art-forms can do that. Not everyone can do it in the most tasteful way possible and that's also true of any form of media. Spouting the old "Murder simulator" bullshit exposes the argument for what it is; an attack on gaming. The point of this thread is that scenes were artificially created to illustrate her point. Plenty more distasteful things happen to people in movies now considered masterpieces, classics or essential viewing.

Once again her argument is that gaming, as an interactive medium, prays on our soft fragile minds (but obviously can't affect her). It's good old fashioned moral panic. In 10 years time she will be laughed at alongside those who went into a panic about "A Clockwork Orange" and "Natural Born Killers" if she is remembered at all.

A person that has zero understanding of game and gameplay design or anything else in general makes a poorly justified statement about a supposedly controversial video game.

She should work for Fox News, cause she'd be right at home with those people.

Hitman has its flaws, but that woman only lands within a very general vicinity with her shots at it.
If she wanted to take potshots at sexism, there was a lot of far better examples she could have used.

Therumancer:

bobleponge:
"Look, it's not our fault players are having sex with kids in our game! Our game is about having sex with ADULTS, so we programmed it so you could have sex with anyone. Of course we're going to have kid NPCs though, it wouldn't be believable otherwise! Besides, you lose points if you have sex with the kid NPCs!"

(Also, losing a few points isn't "discouragement." Making you feel guilt for callously ending an innocent human life, in a way that happens all the time and rarely receives any sort of justice... now that's discouragement. I'd like to see one of these "dark, gritty, mature" games try that.)

In the context of "Hitman" though the whole point of the '47' character is that he's been conditioned so that he doesn't exactly feel remorse, he's pretty much an ultimate weapon. Part of the evolving story is him gradually getting some of his humanity back, though at the end of the day he can't change what he is. Creating some kind of major guilt trip over killing wouldn't really fit into the context of the game or it's narrative for the most part. That said we're talking about what is a very dark hero concept, and something that is pretty much against the tenets of society, which is why it's an "M" rated game series above and beyond the simple inclusion of violence.

As far as the sexual comments you made above, that battle has already been ongoing to be honest, so it doesn't make for very good sarcasm. A lot of Japanese games and those made from parts of the world with much lower ages of consent have indeed run into problems with people getting upset about pedophilia or potential pedophilia. This is to say nothing of the "Second Life" battles over so called "ageplay" and people creating underage avatars and animation sets specifically to have sex and/or engage in virtual prostitution. The defense of which has involved things like how the person pretending to be a child isn't actually a child, so it shouldn't count... it's a giant mess, but the point is we've already seen this kind of thing as well.

Speaking entirely for myself I tend to draw a line between "children" and "teens" when it comes to such things even if a lot of society does not do so. The way I see it is that teens are developing sexually, and are going to have sex no matter what anyone does. As a result I tend to be a supporter of things like distributing condoms in schools, along with better sex education, and things like that, as opposed to trying to force abstinence programs and the like. The way I see it is teens having sex with teens, including the pitfalls involved, are part of growing up and learning about life. I do however have a big problem with ADULTS getting involved with teens. As "mature" as a lot of people like to think teenagers are, at the end of the day you wind up with some 16 year old girl going with a 30 year old dude and it's a recipe for disaster, especially if as a young idealist she thinks this guy is going to be with her forever or take care of her just because he said so at some point. Those kinds of lopsided relationships tend to end in disaster, and like it or not teens with limited resources are easy for an adult with better resources (money to spend, etc...) to exploit. Things tend to become a bit touchier when it comes to young adults within a couple of years like a 17 year old with an 18 or 19 year old in my opinion.

To put all of that into a more mainstream context, as general rule a video game that say has teenagers who aren't platonic is very similar to say the "Porky's" or "American Pie" movie series, or various horror movies or whatever, and really given that society already has some degree of acceptance for this as you can tell it really isn't that big a deal if you say have a video game dating simulator where a character in high school can say score with another character in high school.... and really while there are exceptions, this is mostly where such things tend to go.

To put things into perspective, someone mentioned say Rikku in "Final Fantasy X" being 15, and dressing provocatively (and honestly, look at how a lot of 15 year olds dress IRL, whether you approve or not, it's not exactly unheard of). Consider that most of the cast of "Final Fantasy X" are all young and around the same basic age level, pretty much within a few years of her. I think the oldest cast members are Wakka and Lulu who are pretty much committed to each other and they are like what? Early 20s? As a result something like that doesn't wind hitting my alarm buttons, since your pretty much dealing with a teenage romance when you get down to it (and it's not like this game actually goes into porno territory to begin with).

In the TV series "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" most people don't really think about it, but by the time Buffy has graduated high school she's already had an affair with an ancient vampire (Angel) who looks about 30 but is actually centuries old. I don't think the show specifies but consider this had been going on a couple of seasons before graduation, including the whole "he comes back from hell with a soul, ooops he turned evil, ooops now he's good again" ongoing arc. This means at the very beginning when she does it with Angel, which is a big plot point and catalyst for those events she's about 15 or 16. As a general rule this has been permitted because it's fantasy despite being illegal and immoral... and well, it's one of the biggest cult TV shows of all time. Approve or disapprove the ship has already sailed here and I don't see it making a big deal if a video game does something similar.

On the other hand if you want to get creepier in video games, I look at say the "Xenosaga" series where you have say the thing between Ziggy and Momo which I get the impression wasn't exactly staying entirely platonic. Then of course we've got "Kid" who is an adult in a child's body who goes around with an entourage of babes who basically worship him and I sort of got the impression that wasn't exactly platonic either. Things like that represent the exception and get to the point where I'm thinking the envelope is being pushed as your dealing with characters who are pre-teen, and should be pre-sexual, at least physically. So basically the exceptions exist, but again this series doesn't exactly show anything happening or get particularly explicit (it's at best implied).

The point here is that the analogy isn't the best one. I suppose one could say "there shouldn't be graphic violence or teenage sex in video games", but then again a number of people have been saying that about all media for decades and it's been an ongoing issue. For the most part this is why you have warning labels. It's also why going by those labels an actual teenager shouldn't be consuming material just because it involves teenage characters. Part of it is because adults can draw the line between something that's fantasy, and being presented as acceptable or being encouraged. Whether they do or not, arguably real people the age of the teenage victims at "Camp Crystal Lake" should not be watching "Friday The 13th" movies and they are labeled accordingly. If parents do not listen, and nobody heeds the advisory that's an entirely separate issue. :)

Understand in something like "Hitman" the lead character is not being presented as a role model, indeed the situation is presented as being messed up on all ends, starting with the conditioned demons in his head. Likewise your typical horror movie isn't selling outrageous teen behavior as being a good thing (and indeed if you analyze them, most are morality plays, where those who misbehave are "punished" by the killer of the piece, which while obvious to an adult, and a trope which today is heavily subverted after the success of things like 'Evil Dead', this might not be obvious to a kid, so you know... again the advisory).

Of course then again I am a "Piers Anthony" fan and if you've ever read his stuff, a lot of it is pretty much a huge analysis of sexual politics, and he gets even weirder because he kind of sets up to shock with the whole "okay, well, you thought that was pushing it, and I barely sold it as being acceptable, wait until you get a load of this".

Geeze, so many people responded to my post, and you all missed the point in the exact same way. I'll respond to therumancer here, because he wrote out a long detailed response and I appreciate that.

Basically, here's how it goes:

Having sex with any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having kids in your game: Okay!
Having both those things in your game: Well... it's not a black-and-white issue. I'd say if you're really committed to making a mature game (not a "Mature" game) and you intend to deal with this sensitive subject in an honest and meaningful way, I say go for it. Make some art. However, if you're just gonna make some fun action fantasy, maybe don't include it, because an action fantasy is an inherently trivial thing, and this is NOT a trivial issue.

Now, my joke was a metaphor, so here's the equivalent:

Murdering any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having hookers/strippers in your game: Okay*!
Having both those things in your game: See above!

*this actually comes with its own set of issue, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

bobleponge:

Geeze, so many people responded to my post, and you all missed the point in the exact same way. I'll respond to therumancer here, because he wrote out a long detailed response and I appreciate that.

Basically, here's how it goes:

Having sex with any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having kids in your game: Okay!
Having both those things in your game: Well... it's not a black-and-white issue. I'd say if you're really committed to making a mature game (not a "Mature" game) and you intend to deal with this sensitive subject in an honest and meaningful way, I say go for it. Make some art. However, if you're just gonna make some fun action fantasy, maybe don't include it, because an action fantasy is an inherently trivial thing, and this is NOT a trivial issue.

Now, my joke was a metaphor, so here's the equivalent:

Murdering any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having hookers/strippers in your game: Okay*!
Having both those things in your game: See above!

*this actually comes with its own set of issue, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

heres the problem with your horrible metaphor

first you imply people should treat adults and kids differently, which is true, a kid absolutely doesnt enough maturity, both mentally and physically to participate in sex

then you imply people should threat sex workers and "any other person" differently, which is bullshit, its a job, many people decide to be sex workers, and you are reducing them to the status of a child

to use freakin' stupid feminist lingo: an "object" doesnt stop being an "object" just because its invincible, an ingame tank or wall can be invincible as well, it needs "agency" to stop being an object, to act instead of being acted upon

of course these dumb definitions carry a whole lot of problems particulary when it comes to games because even at a programming level all in-game entities are "objects"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming

(more like white CIS-gender oriented programming! am i right fellas?)

but thats a discussion for another day, the thing is, your metaphor is so horrible it doesnt even address anita's complains

NuclearKangaroo:

bobleponge:

Geeze, so many people responded to my post, and you all missed the point in the exact same way. I'll respond to therumancer here, because he wrote out a long detailed response and I appreciate that.

Basically, here's how it goes:

Having sex with any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having kids in your game: Okay!
Having both those things in your game: Well... it's not a black-and-white issue. I'd say if you're really committed to making a mature game (not a "Mature" game) and you intend to deal with this sensitive subject in an honest and meaningful way, I say go for it. Make some art. However, if you're just gonna make some fun action fantasy, maybe don't include it, because an action fantasy is an inherently trivial thing, and this is NOT a trivial issue.

Now, my joke was a metaphor, so here's the equivalent:

Murdering any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having hookers/strippers in your game: Okay*!
Having both those things in your game: See above!

*this actually comes with its own set of issue, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

heres the problem with your horrible metaphor

first you imply people should treat adults and kids differently, which is true, a kid absolutely doesnt enough maturity, both mentally and physically to participate in sex

then you imply people should threat sex workers and "any other person" differently, which is bullshit, its a job, many people decide to be sex workers, and you are reducing them to the status of a child

to use freakin' stupid feminist lingo: an "object" doesnt stop being an "object" just because its invincible, an ingame tank or wall can be invincible as well, it needs "agency" to stop being an object, to act instead of being acted upon

of course these dumb definitions carry a whole lot of problems particulary when it comes to games because even at a programming level all in-game entities are "objects"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming

(more like white CIS-gender oriented programming! am i right fellas?)

but thats a discussion for another day, the thing is, your metaphor is so horrible it doesnt even address anita's complains

I'm not talking about real people. I'm talking about fictional characters. The rules are different. For instance, while it is totally okay to kill fictional characters, it is generally frowned upon to kill real people. However, if your story is about how great it is when your white fictional characters kill your black fictional characters, then I'd have some issues with your story.

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

bobleponge:

Geeze, so many people responded to my post, and you all missed the point in the exact same way. I'll respond to therumancer here, because he wrote out a long detailed response and I appreciate that.

Basically, here's how it goes:

Having sex with any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having kids in your game: Okay!
Having both those things in your game: Well... it's not a black-and-white issue. I'd say if you're really committed to making a mature game (not a "Mature" game) and you intend to deal with this sensitive subject in an honest and meaningful way, I say go for it. Make some art. However, if you're just gonna make some fun action fantasy, maybe don't include it, because an action fantasy is an inherently trivial thing, and this is NOT a trivial issue.

Now, my joke was a metaphor, so here's the equivalent:

Murdering any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having hookers/strippers in your game: Okay*!
Having both those things in your game: See above!

*this actually comes with its own set of issue, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

heres the problem with your horrible metaphor

first you imply people should treat adults and kids differently, which is true, a kid absolutely doesnt enough maturity, both mentally and physically to participate in sex

then you imply people should threat sex workers and "any other person" differently, which is bullshit, its a job, many people decide to be sex workers, and you are reducing them to the status of a child

to use freakin' stupid feminist lingo: an "object" doesnt stop being an "object" just because its invincible, an ingame tank or wall can be invincible as well, it needs "agency" to stop being an object, to act instead of being acted upon

of course these dumb definitions carry a whole lot of problems particulary when it comes to games because even at a programming level all in-game entities are "objects"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming

(more like white CIS-gender oriented programming! am i right fellas?)

but thats a discussion for another day, the thing is, your metaphor is so horrible it doesnt even address anita's complains

I'm not talking about real people. I'm talking about fictional characters. The rules are different. For instance, while it is totally okay to kill fictional characters, it is generally frowned upon to kill real people. However, if your story is about how great it is when your white fictional characters kill your black fictional characters, then I'd have some issues with your story.

because as we all know, black people and white people arent equal

i swear some of the stuff you people say...

how about you look at the INTENT of the work in question, Django is a movie about a black dude killing a bunch of white people, is it racist? of course not, because we know the people Django kills throughout the film are trashbags, because we know Django doesnt hate white people, its a film that PORTRAITS racism, but doesnt endorse it

likewise lets look at Hitman Absolution

does agent 47 go around killing "sexualized" women for no reason as part of story? no, the vast mayority of people you can kill i bet arent sexualized, atleast i havent seen it, is the character of agent 47 ever portrayed as a mysoginist? no, does the game allow you to kill sex workers? yes, does it endorse it or rewards you for it? no, in fact the objective of that mission is to kill the trashbag owner of the stripclub in which those sex workers are being abused, the game PORTRAITS mysoginy, but it doesnt endorse it, atleast not in that mission, the fact anita had to get out of her way and fabricate evidence just to make it seem like it should be enough proof of this

NuclearKangaroo:

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

heres the problem with your horrible metaphor

first you imply people should treat adults and kids differently, which is true, a kid absolutely doesnt enough maturity, both mentally and physically to participate in sex

then you imply people should threat sex workers and "any other person" differently, which is bullshit, its a job, many people decide to be sex workers, and you are reducing them to the status of a child

to use freakin' stupid feminist lingo: an "object" doesnt stop being an "object" just because its invincible, an ingame tank or wall can be invincible as well, it needs "agency" to stop being an object, to act instead of being acted upon

of course these dumb definitions carry a whole lot of problems particulary when it comes to games because even at a programming level all in-game entities are "objects"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming

(more like white CIS-gender oriented programming! am i right fellas?)

but thats a discussion for another day, the thing is, your metaphor is so horrible it doesnt even address anita's complains

I'm not talking about real people. I'm talking about fictional characters. The rules are different. For instance, while it is totally okay to kill fictional characters, it is generally frowned upon to kill real people. However, if your story is about how great it is when your white fictional characters kill your black fictional characters, then I'd have some issues with your story.

because as we all know, black people and white people arent equal

i swear some of the stuff you people say...

how about you look at the INTENT of the work in question, Django is a movie about a black dude killing a bunch of white people, is it racist? of course not, because we know the people Django kills throughout the film are trashbags, because we know Django doesnt hate white people, its a film that PORTRAITS racism, but doesnt endorse it

likewise lets look at Hitman Absolution

does agent 47 go around killing "sexualized" women for no reason as part of story? no, the vast mayority of people you can kill i bet arent sexualized, atleast i havent seen it, is the character of agent 47 ever portrayed as a mysoginist? no, does the game allow you to kill sex workers? yes, does it endorse it or rewards you for it? no, in fact the objective of that mission is to kill the trashbag owner of the stripclub in which those sex workers are being abused, the game PORTRAITS mysoginy, but it doesnt endorse it, atleast not in that mission, the fact anita had to get out of her way and fabricate evidence just to make it seem like it should be enough proof of this

The story context matters, of course. But you also have to look at it in the context of the culture at large. Black people have a history of being oppressed by white people in America, so Django Unchained was cathartic. A movie about a heroic white guy going around killing evil black people would be tasteless and offensive, because of the exact same context. Hookers and strippers are very frequently murdered by men, due to the incredibly off balance power dynamic, so it's kinda crappy that a silly/fun action fantasy would trivialize that.

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

bobleponge:

I'm not talking about real people. I'm talking about fictional characters. The rules are different. For instance, while it is totally okay to kill fictional characters, it is generally frowned upon to kill real people. However, if your story is about how great it is when your white fictional characters kill your black fictional characters, then I'd have some issues with your story.

because as we all know, black people and white people arent equal

i swear some of the stuff you people say...

how about you look at the INTENT of the work in question, Django is a movie about a black dude killing a bunch of white people, is it racist? of course not, because we know the people Django kills throughout the film are trashbags, because we know Django doesnt hate white people, its a film that PORTRAITS racism, but doesnt endorse it

likewise lets look at Hitman Absolution

does agent 47 go around killing "sexualized" women for no reason as part of story? no, the vast mayority of people you can kill i bet arent sexualized, atleast i havent seen it, is the character of agent 47 ever portrayed as a mysoginist? no, does the game allow you to kill sex workers? yes, does it endorse it or rewards you for it? no, in fact the objective of that mission is to kill the trashbag owner of the stripclub in which those sex workers are being abused, the game PORTRAITS mysoginy, but it doesnt endorse it, atleast not in that mission, the fact anita had to get out of her way and fabricate evidence just to make it seem like it should be enough proof of this

The story context matters, of course. But you also have to look at it in the context of the culture at large. Black people have a history of being oppressed by white people in America, so Django Unchained was cathartic. A movie about a heroic white guy going around killing evil black people would be tasteless and offensive, because of the exact same context. Hookers and strippers are very frequently murdered by men, due to the incredibly off balance power dynamic, so it's kinda crappy that a silly/fun action fantasy would trivialize that.

you know ive always thought the main principle of tolerance is equality, i dunno its probably just this foolish mind which is the result of living my entire life in a country that has never experienced real racism, because like 90% of the population in my country is mulatto and we abolished slavery the same day we became a republic and declared our independence. i live in Venezuela btw

i havent seen someone ever in my country being a target of a hate crime, or being discriminated by the color of their skin, ive heard racist jokes thrown around in equal measure and everyone just laughing it off

plus let me tell you, historic revisionism is the biggest pile of bullshit that can ever exist

is pretty much one of the main reasons why my country is so fucked up right now, the past 15 years the people in power have been constantly reinterpreting history, finding the slightest miserable fault done to us, as an excuse for their actions, they are right because the US wronged us in the past, they are right because previous governments were wrong, etc

killing virtual black people in a video game is not wrong just because real black people were oppressed in the past, it implies we are not equal, that one race is in debt with the other, that unless something equally bad is done upon white people by black people, they cant get along like equals, and that the color of their skin will always matter

and hell what do i, a mulatto have to do with all this? now i cant kill black people because white people killed black people? if a mulatto cant play as a white guy killing a black dude, then whats the bloody point of video games?

now, its pretty much the same argument towards killing sex workers, yes sex workers have been the subject of abuse in the past, just because a game represents that doesnt mean it endorses it and again, if the same rules dont apply to all characters in the game it implies we are not equal

Ehhhh....

You can argue whether the Hitman universe is misogynistic, or simply deeply misanthropic.

My position would be it is both. Every character is reprehesible in character whilst dead eyed and sickly in appearance. This is a universe where humanity lacks many redeming features. The utter lack of agency or hope for most of the female characters in Hitman does push this message further.

But these are artistic decisions made for the game, not demonstrations of the misogyny/misanthropy of the writers or artists.

The game is misogynistic however. Its representations of women are pretty grim. Any feminist critical reading of the game would mention the things Anita mentions.

Unless she actually said the words "This game should not exist" then I can't get angry with Anita for this one.

bobleponge:

Geeze, so many people responded to my post, and you all missed the point in the exact same way. I'll respond to therumancer here, because he wrote out a long detailed response and I appreciate that.

Basically, here's how it goes:

Having sex with any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having kids in your game: Okay!
Having both those things in your game: Well... it's not a black-and-white issue. I'd say if you're really committed to making a mature game (not a "Mature" game) and you intend to deal with this sensitive subject in an honest and meaningful way, I say go for it. Make some art. However, if you're just gonna make some fun action fantasy, maybe don't include it, because an action fantasy is an inherently trivial thing, and this is NOT a trivial issue.

Now, my joke was a metaphor, so here's the equivalent:

Murdering any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having hookers/strippers in your game: Okay*!
Having both those things in your game: See above!

*this actually comes with its own set of issue, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

You hit the nail on the head and didn't realise it.

Fantasy

Fantasy can be crafted how the creator likes.

Children are seen as innocents.

Sex is often seen as part of maturation and the loss of the initial innocence (See most coming of age teen comedy films)

Now to address the whole sexualised women issue.

Equality means everyone is treated equally.

So if violence against women being shown in a video game is being claimed as morally wrong then violence against Men could be considered the same.

Now you're claiming the issue relates to the sexualisation which now brings me to the big question which I've asked multiple times here.

Define the sexualised male ?

The traits present for a sexualised female can be explained by simple biology and potentially even genetic coding built into men to help push the survival of their offspring. No really it is that easy.

Now Sexualised men is a tougher one as most of the ones you'll find are simply considered that because their a counter movement to the kind presented by the media.

To take a quote from the Daft Souls Podcast
"It tends to be the in offensive non threatening or imposing kind for a period"
However again it then varies with this being pushed by the media so some will go for "The bad boy image" or something like it as another possible option.
Generally the perception is driven in away by the media and a counter culture to the macho super man idea pushed in many Male Fantasy ideas however this again can change to the strong powerful protector style figure.

There are so many variations it's hard to nail down the required stereotype so equally I could claim Tidus from FFX and Solid Snake are both sexualised Male characters. If you wish to present them in a specific light.

How many Half naked guys did people here kill in Conan games or God of War ?

Ok so here's the kicker. Women are adults, now there are equality issues however asking for a character to get special treatment based on their gender is sexist. It's considered positive sexism but sexism all the same.

Children are a whole different issue because for various reasons we do treat them differently to adults.

bobleponge:

I'm not talking about real people. I'm talking about fictional characters. The rules are different. For instance, while it is totally okay to kill fictional characters, it is generally frowned upon to kill real people. However, if your story is about how great it is when your white fictional characters kill your black fictional characters, then I'd have some issues with your story.

Do you know how to control fantasy fiction ?

You make it

That's how it's controlled.

There are lines which the majority of the populous see as large do not cross ones. These generally don't get seen in media too often and it takes work to express them well.

Now sex, this is something that honestly seems to be a go to thing people seem to want to villify. Heck I don't blame people the church has been pushing this message for millennia it's quite ingrained in some social cultures and yet such an evil thing is the basis for the entire survival of the species and even if you don't wish to argue survival of the species then it is part of exploring the whole concept of being a human. We are not slaves the machine like logic and purely survival of the species alone and part of embracing humanity is understanding these kind of things.

People seem to confuse sexualisation with sexism when the really it's a representation issue and considering almost all media represents idealised concepts and characters to some extent then of course all characters present won't reflect reality.

I'm not a 6'5 ripped Greek dude with a Goatee and bald head.

bobleponge:

The story context matters, of course. But you also have to look at it in the context of the culture at large. Black people have a history of being oppressed by white people in America, so Django Unchained was cathartic. A movie about a heroic white guy going around killing evil black people would be tasteless and offensive, because of the exact same context. Hookers and strippers are very frequently murdered by men, due to the incredibly off balance power dynamic, so it's kinda crappy that a silly/fun action fantasy would trivialize that.

The Comics code authority did just what you're asking for.

Drugs are a problem in reality

Ban all drugs references in comic books

Stan Lee goes to them with a story for Spiderman, one of Peter Parkers friends gets high on drugs and thinks he can fly, he jumps off a building and nearly dies.

The Comics Code authority refuse to endorse the story because of drug references.

It didn't matter to them the context only that something considered a real life issue was being broached here.

Stan Lee then defied the authority and published anyway without the mark and it sold well. This lead to the collapse of the Comic code authority because people realised how stupid the rules were and people were intelligent enough to see the difference between endorsing and merely representing.

"Hookers and strippers frequently killed"

How many of those killings are by puritan whack jobs who see it as right to punish these perceived a fronts to god ? I'm not joking here most of the more famous incidents I've heard of were not by people who saw sexualisation as acceptable and fine but by people who saw sexualisation and wrong and a horrible thing which in turn made them see themselves as the hero killing people doing bad things. You want to talk about messed up ? How about the villifying or public shaming of people because of their job.

In most countries Prostitution isn't legal so there is risk, these women are in locations known for violent crime etc or are able to be controlled in some way be it drugs or violence. As a society we condemn these people because of their situations.

I bet if you could find statistics for sex worker murders in Amsterdam I'd say you might notice a serious difference.

NuclearKangaroo:

killing virtual black people in a video game is not wrong just because real black people were oppressed in the past, it implies we are not equal, that one race is in debt with the other, that unless something equally bad is done upon white people by black people, they cant get along like equals, and that the color of their skin will always matter

and hell what do i, a mulatto have to do with all this? now i cant kill black people because white people killed black people? if a mulatto cant play as a white guy killing a black dude, then whats the bloody point of video games?

now, its pretty much the same argument towards killing sex workers, yes sex workers have been the subject of abuse in the past, just because a game represents that doesnt mean it endorses it and again, if the same rules dont apply to all characters in the game it implies we are not equal

Did you miss your own previous comment about the importance of the story context? I never said "no killing black people/prostitutes in games ever!"

The_Kodu:

The Comics code authority did just what you're asking for.

Drugs are a problem in reality

Ban all drugs references in comic books

Stan Lee goes to them with a story for Spiderman, one of Peter Parkers friends gets high on drugs and thinks he can fly, he jumps off a building and nearly dies.

The Comics Code authority refuse to endorse the story because of drug references.

It didn't matter to them the context only that something considered a real life issue was being broached here.

Stan Lee then defied the authority and published anyway without the mark and it sold well. This lead to the collapse of the Comic code authority because people realised how stupid the rules were and people were intelligent enough to see the difference between endorsing and merely representing.

"Hookers and strippers frequently killed"

How many of those killings are by puritan whack jobs who see it as right to punish these perceived a fronts to god ? I'm not joking here most of the more famous incidents I've heard of were not by people who saw sexualisation as acceptable and fine but by people who saw sexualisation and wrong and a horrible thing which in turn made them see themselves as the hero killing people doing bad things. You want to talk about messed up ? How about the villifying or public shaming of people because of their job.

In most countries Prostitution isn't legal so there is risk, these women are in locations known for violent crime etc or are able to be controlled in some way be it drugs or violence. As a society we condemn these people because of their situations.

I bet if you could find statistics for sex worker murders in Amsterdam I'd say you might notice a serious difference.

Again, nowhere did I say "never do this ever." Why do think that's what I was saying?

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

killing virtual black people in a video game is not wrong just because real black people were oppressed in the past, it implies we are not equal, that one race is in debt with the other, that unless something equally bad is done upon white people by black people, they cant get along like equals, and that the color of their skin will always matter

and hell what do i, a mulatto have to do with all this? now i cant kill black people because white people killed black people? if a mulatto cant play as a white guy killing a black dude, then whats the bloody point of video games?

now, its pretty much the same argument towards killing sex workers, yes sex workers have been the subject of abuse in the past, just because a game represents that doesnt mean it endorses it and again, if the same rules dont apply to all characters in the game it implies we are not equal

Did you miss your own previous comment about the importance of the story context? I never said "no killing black people/prostitutes in games ever!"

you said historical context is important, its not, it only serves to obstruct real equality, black people cant be equal to everyone else, neither can women or sex workers under that point of view

NuclearKangaroo:

you said historical context is important, its not, it only serves to obstruct real equality, black people cant be equal to everyone else, neither can women or sex workers under that point of view

I was referring to cultural context. Our culture includes recent history. I really do not understand why you think that obstructs real equality.

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

you said historical context is important, its not, it only serves to obstruct real equality, black people cant be equal to everyone else, neither can women or sex workers under that point of view

I was referring to cultural context. Our culture includes recent history. I really do not understand why you think that obstructs real equality.

because it does, you are saying killing a black man in a video game and killing a white man in a video game is not the same thing, both acts are not equal so both races cant be treated equally

you cant simply make special rules for one group and argue everyone is equal

NuclearKangaroo:

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

you said historical context is important, its not, it only serves to obstruct real equality, black people cant be equal to everyone else, neither can women or sex workers under that point of view

I was referring to cultural context. Our culture includes recent history. I really do not understand why you think that obstructs real equality.

because it does, you are saying killing a black man in a video game and killing a white man in a video game is not the same thing, both acts are not equal so both races cant be treated equally

you cant simply make special rules for one group and argue everyone is equal

Everyone isn't equal. That's the issue. That's why you need to be thoughtful as to how you're portraying certain groups of people.

bobleponge:

Basically, here's how it goes:

Having sex with any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having kids in your game: Okay!
Having both those things in your game: Well... it's not a black-and-white issue. I'd say if you're really committed to making a mature game (not a "Mature" game) and you intend to deal with this sensitive subject in an honest and meaningful way, I say go for it. Make some art. However, if you're just gonna make some fun action fantasy, maybe don't include it, because an action fantasy is an inherently trivial thing, and this is NOT a trivial issue.

Neither is war or crime or murder. And can you tl:dr why it's so bad if a stripper winds up amongst the dead?

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

bobleponge:

I was referring to cultural context. Our culture includes recent history. I really do not understand why you think that obstructs real equality.

because it does, you are saying killing a black man in a video game and killing a white man in a video game is not the same thing, both acts are not equal so both races cant be treated equally

you cant simply make special rules for one group and argue everyone is equal

Everyone isn't equal. That's the issue. That's why you need to be thoughtful as to how you're portraying certain groups of people.

so why did you ask me why i think it obstructs real equality? you know it does, you just dont care

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

bobleponge:

I was referring to cultural context. Our culture includes recent history. I really do not understand why you think that obstructs real equality.

because it does, you are saying killing a black man in a video game and killing a white man in a video game is not the same thing, both acts are not equal so both races cant be treated equally

you cant simply make special rules for one group and argue everyone is equal

Everyone isn't equal. That's the issue. That's why you need to be thoughtful as to how you're portraying certain groups of people.

But, shouldn't we BE treating everyone as equals while the rest of the world tries to get there? Doesn't the fact that developers didn't see an issue with murdering females the same as males say something positive about society, or those particular people? Wouldn't treating them as if they need extra protection add to the problem?

NuclearKangaroo:

bobleponge:

NuclearKangaroo:

because it does, you are saying killing a black man in a video game and killing a white man in a video game is not the same thing, both acts are not equal so both races cant be treated equally

you cant simply make special rules for one group and argue everyone is equal

Everyone isn't equal. That's the issue. That's why you need to be thoughtful as to how you're portraying certain groups of people.

so why did you ask me why i think it obstructs real equality? you know it does, you just dont care

I don't think that. I think the opposite.

WhiteNachos:

bobleponge:

Basically, here's how it goes:

Having sex with any NPC in a game: Okay!
Having kids in your game: Okay!
Having both those things in your game: Well... it's not a black-and-white issue. I'd say if you're really committed to making a mature game (not a "Mature" game) and you intend to deal with this sensitive subject in an honest and meaningful way, I say go for it. Make some art. However, if you're just gonna make some fun action fantasy, maybe don't include it, because an action fantasy is an inherently trivial thing, and this is NOT a trivial issue.

Neither is war or crime or murder. And can you tl:dr why it's so bad if a stripper winds up amongst the dead?

It's not ALL BAD ALL THE TIME. It's just that a stripper is inherently sexualized and objectified, so when you combine that with violence it makes a really problematic combination if not handled correctly. That's why it's important to be thoughtful about what you're saying.

Also I think it's funny how we're arguing from the perspective that the way video games portray war, crime, and murder is inherently fine and dandy.

Shadowstar38:

But, shouldn't we BE treating everyone as equals while the rest of the world tries to get there? Doesn't the fact that developers didn't see an issue with murdering females the same as males say something positive about society, or those particular people? Wouldn't treating them as if they need extra protection add to the problem?

I addressed this a little bit above. It's not that killing males is Good and killing females is Bad. It's that female characters are objectified/sexualized the way that men are not. You aren't treating them equally to the male characters, because you're inviting the player to murder AND ogle the female characters, while you only murder the male characters.

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