Trump requests from Congress $18 billion for his wall

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Agema:

McMarbles:
Wasn't Mexico supposed to pay for this?

It doesn't matter for Trump whether Mexico pays for it.

Simply building it will constitute enough of a "win" that billing Mexico can simply be ignored. Kick the "Mexico pays" can down the road a year or two, attention will move on and no-one will care if Mexico is never even sent an invoice.

Didnt he even try to get Mexico to pretend they paid for it but would have paid for it himself*

*not spending his own dime, but spending all of America's money while stuffing his own

Saelune:
Didnt he even try to get Mexico to pretend they paid for it but would have paid for it himself

Sort of.

I think there was a leaked conversation of a conversation between Trump and Nieto early in his presidency. Trump variously begged and threatened the Mexican president to stop saying Mexico won't pay, whilst also implying the actual financial angle didn't particularly matter.

In a way, Trump got he wanted. In that conversation, Nieto stated he would agree to a policy where neither talks about anybody paying for the wall in public. Nieto has maintained silence on the matter, even though Trump continues to say Mexico will pay.

Agema:

Saelune:
Didnt he even try to get Mexico to pretend they paid for it but would have paid for it himself

Sort of.

I think there was a leaked conversation of a conversation between Trump and Nieto early in his presidency. Trump variously begged and threatened the Mexican president to stop saying Mexico won't pay, whilst also implying the actual financial angle didn't particularly matter.

In a way, Trump got he wanted. In that conversation, Nieto stated he would agree to a policy where neither talks about anybody paying for the wall in public. Nieto has maintained silence on the matter, even though Trump continues to say Mexico will pay.

The irony is USA has about 60 billion dollars of debt to Mexico . If Nieto is pressured to chose sides in public, he'll have to choose not to pay the wall; or Mexico would risk in suffering its own version of the Bolivarian Revolution.

Nielas:

Warhound:

I would personally be totally down for large jail times (And civil forfeiture of all possessions) for CEOs and execs who use illegals, as well as some solid temp visas for things like seasonal laborors with fair wages and taxes applied.

Edit: Maybe the jail and civil forfeiture for the manager/person who brought the illegal on instead, possibly up to regional manager, going too high with it could lead to some silly corporate espionage stuff. Possibly with reporting being ordered/"suggested" hiring illegals being reward and the ordering person being slapped.

Now you are just being a bleeding heart. If illegal immigration is such a serious national security issue that you would have illegal immigrants executed at the border, then the act of hiring illegal immigrants should be treated as tantamount to treason. Just think of how much you would discourage the practice if you had a bunch of CEOs and senior managers drawn and quartered on live TV.

Actually I happen to be a nationalist. I think people who are citizens of our nation should be subject to less harsh penalties than those who aren't.

Warhound:

Actually I happen to be a nationalist. I think people who are citizens of our nation should be subject to less harsh penalties than those who aren't.

I guess you don't hold these truths to be self evident then.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Kwak:

Warhound:

Actually I happen to be a nationalist. I think people who are citizens of our nation should be subject to less harsh penalties than those who aren't.

I guess you don't hold these truths to be self evident then.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They weren't even true when the words were drafted. They are no truer today. They are a nice ideal, but little more. Just ask the folk that Thomas Jefferson owned how unalienable their rights were. Admittedly he WANTED to free them, but didn't because it would have put him further into debt. So clearly their rights came right behind trying to pay off his debts.

Warhound:

Kwak:

Warhound:

Actually I happen to be a nationalist. I think people who are citizens of our nation should be subject to less harsh penalties than those who aren't.

I guess you don't hold these truths to be self evident then.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They weren't even true when the words were drafted. They are no truer today. They are a nice ideal, but little more. Just ask the folk that Thomas Jefferson owned how unalienable their rights were. Admittedly he WANTED to free them, but didn't because it would have put him further into debt. So clearly their rights came right behind trying to pay off his debts.

Well well, it's rare to hear someone advocating unfair punishments come out and admit they think American ideals are full of shit.

I'm not sure I consider that a virtue, but it's a first for me. Scratch that, I know for a fact it isn't a virtue. In fact, stuff like this is why I don't consider being a nationalist something to be particularly proud of. Nationalists often seem a-ok with trampling all over the rights of "the other."

erttheking:

Warhound:

Kwak:

I guess you don't hold these truths to be self evident then.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They weren't even true when the words were drafted. They are no truer today. They are a nice ideal, but little more. Just ask the folk that Thomas Jefferson owned how unalienable their rights were. Admittedly he WANTED to free them, but didn't because it would have put him further into debt. So clearly their rights came right behind trying to pay off his debts.

Well well, it's rare to hear someone advocating unfair punishments come out and admit they think American ideals are full of shit.

I'm not sure I consider that a virtue, but it's a first for me. Scratch that, I know for a fact it isn't a virtue. In fact, stuff like this is why I don't consider being a nationalist something to be particularly proud of. Nationalists often seem a-ok with trampling all over the rights of "the other."

Eh I don't care if someone like you thinks its a virtue. Fact of the matter is I am honest, and we both know that the ideals are full of shit. It would be nice if they were true, but they never were, and never will be without tearing america as it is completely down and rebuilding it from the ground up. But here is the thing, if "The Other" takes the time to follow the laws set out to become part of the nation properly then they are no longer "The Other."

Even if I disagreed with the laws I would respect them and welcome the person, but if they decide to say fuck my countries laws and do what they want then no, fuck them right back, they deserve no protection by those same laws.

Warhound:
Actually I happen to be a nationalist. I think people who are citizens of our nation should be subject to less harsh penalties than those who aren't.

That's.. not what being a nationalist means.

A nationalist believes that the people of their nation (or, in more charitable cases, all nations) possess a distinct national identity, and that they should be part of a sovereign nation.

The idea that there should be official discrimination aimed at those who don't "belong" to the nation (whether as citizens, or because they don't fit in with whatever the person in question feels is required to be part of the nation) is a.. rather different thing.

Warhound:

Eh I don't care if someone like you thinks its a virtue. Fact of the matter is I am honest, and we both know that the ideals are full of shit. It would be nice if they were true, but they never were, and never will be without tearing america as it is completely down and rebuilding it from the ground up. But here is the thing, if "The Other" takes the time to follow the laws set out to become part of the nation properly then they are no longer "The Other."

Even if I disagreed with the laws I would respect them and welcome the person, but if they decide to say fuck my countries laws and do what they want then no, fuck them right back, they deserve no protection by those same laws.

I'll try to contain my tears. Uh, no. No I don't know that those ideals are full of shit. I find it kind of funny that you think you know what I think, but you're not very good at it. But please tell me how "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are are bullshit. And no. They will still be the other to a lot of people, they're people that have a noticeably different appearance and speak a lot of a different language.

So you basically want to hurt them out of spite because you consider entering a country undocumented to be a crime worth hurting someone over (even if half of them just overstayed their visa because the immigration system is utterly fucked). You know, it's amazing how many parallels in history this lines up with. Never with anything good I may want to point out. This is why nationalism can go die in a fire.

Warhound:
Fact of the matter is I am honest, and we both know that the ideals are full of shit. It would be nice if they were true, but they never were, and never will be without tearing america as it is completely down and rebuilding it from the ground up.

An ideal is something you aspire to, not something you try once and then give up on forever as soon as you realize it's not easy. Declaring that human rights should only apply to people who have curried your favor in whatever arbitrary manner isn't nationalism, it's bigotry, intellectual laziness and moral weakness.

Warhound:
Eh I don't care if someone like you thinks its a virtue. Fact of the matter is I am honest, and we both know that the ideals are full of shit. It would be nice if they were true, but they never were, and never will be without tearing america as it is completely down and rebuilding it from the ground up. But here is the thing, if "The Other" takes the time to follow the laws set out to become part of the nation properly then they are no longer "The Other."

Even if I disagreed with the laws I would respect them and welcome the person, but if they decide to say fuck my countries laws and do what they want then no, fuck them right back, they deserve no protection by those same laws.

As you have said, you don't respect (some of) the clearly stated laws and values of your nation as an "Insider".

So really, how important is it that "The Other" should have to follow the laws?

Warhound:

Eh I don't care if someone like you thinks its a virtue. Fact of the matter is I am honest

Oh, so what?

Those you're arguing with are honest, too. They just have different priorities. A mugger is honest about what he wants.

Honesty has to be combined with something of substance. So, defend the substance, because your honesty on its own is worth nothing.

But here is the thing, if "The Other" takes the time to follow the laws set out to become part of the nation properly then they are no longer "The Other."

You've just described how you'd like to enshrine discrimination on the basis of someone's point of origin into law. Nothing creates "the other" so much as official, racial discrimination-- creating laws that treat people differently based on their demographics is the epitome of "othering".

You cannot pretend to care about that.

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