So let's talk about how Trump was supposed to start less wars

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Seanchaidh:

Zontar:

WolvDragon:

Not worth the potential losses though, war is a bad idea.

War is inevitable if he doesn't step down, it's not a question of if it's going to happen, it's a matter of when, how brutal, and who will be part of the intervention (outside of Columbia, obviously, since they are 100% going to occupy part of the border regions for their own safety)

The United States is funding an insurgency that the majority of the people of Venezuela do not support. War is only 'inevitable' if foreign support of the Venezuelan fascists embolden them enough.

The people of Venezuela have made it unambiguously clear they want him gone, there is no argument to be made for him to remain in power given the disaster that's been his presidency. The people want him gone, that is clear, that is not an opinion, it's the fact of the matter, and while some people can pretend it's because of foreign entities, that's the argument of the corrupt and incompetent within the regime pretending that it's because of saboteurs that things like their oil infrastructure is collapsing, and not because they pocketed all the money.

He ordered Venezuela's gold repatriated from Switzerland due to the fact he believed it wasn't safe there. In Switzerland. And it went missing within 24 hours after landing. Weather that's incompetence or corruption, it doesn't matter at this point, he needs to go.

The fucker's become a fatass while his country starves. I don't care that socialists pretend this is someone else's fault and not socialism running its very predictable course, it's time to make him leave office, as the people of the country want without any room for misinterpretation of that fact, or someone turns does it for him. The fact the nations of the Americas have put up with him as long as we have is a travesty, and makes us by-standards to his crimes against humanity. It's time we actually uphold our values for once and either soft power him out of office, or strong power him out of office. The world will be the better for it.

Zontar:

The people of Venezuela have made it unambiguously clear they want him gone, there is no argument to be made for him to remain in power given the disaster that's been his presidency.

And how have they done that, exactly?

I don't care that socialists pretend this is someone else's fault and not socialism running its very predictable course, it's time to make him leave office, as the people of the country want without any room for misinterpretation of that fact, or someone turns does it for him. The fact the nations of the Americas have put up with him as long as we have is a travesty, and makes us by-standards to his crimes against humanity. It's time we actually uphold our values for once and either soft power him out of office, or strong power him out of office. The world will be the better for it.

Yeah, get rid of that fucker Saddam! Oh wait, I mean, Gaddafi! Oh wait, I mean al-Assad! Oh jeez, I mean Ho Chi Minh! Oh wait, I mean Madura. Sorry, I am getting confused, which war for oil human rights are we talking about now?

BreakfastMan:

Yeah, get rid of that fucker Saddam! Oh wait, I mean, Gaddafi! Oh wait, I mean al-Assad! Oh jeez, I mean Ho Chi Minh! Oh wait, I mean Madura. Sorry, I am getting confused, which war for oil human rights are we talking about now?

How about do it ourselves to stop the flood of refugees into Columbia before Columbia has enough and invades themselves? Or at least threaten to do it so that nobody has to, since at this point it's so inevitable that it's quite literally down to either him stepping down or someone invading, even if it isn't the US.

Zontar:

BreakfastMan:

Yeah, get rid of that fucker Saddam! Oh wait, I mean, Gaddafi! Oh wait, I mean al-Assad! Oh jeez, I mean Ho Chi Minh! Oh wait, I mean Madura. Sorry, I am getting confused, which war for oil human rights are we talking about now?

How about do it ourselves to stop the flood of refugees into Columbia before Columbia has enough and invades themselves? Or at least threaten to do it so that nobody has to, since at this point it's so inevitable that it's quite literally down to either him stepping down or someone invading, even if it isn't the US.

At least it should fall on the Latin Countries to invade Venezeula.

WolvDragon:

Zontar:

BreakfastMan:

Yeah, get rid of that fucker Saddam! Oh wait, I mean, Gaddafi! Oh wait, I mean al-Assad! Oh jeez, I mean Ho Chi Minh! Oh wait, I mean Madura. Sorry, I am getting confused, which war for oil human rights are we talking about now?

How about do it ourselves to stop the flood of refugees into Columbia before Columbia has enough and invades themselves? Or at least threaten to do it so that nobody has to, since at this point it's so inevitable that it's quite literally down to either him stepping down or someone invading, even if it isn't the US.

At least it should fall on the Latin Countries to invade Venezeula.

I don't care who does it, just get it done. Hell even China doing it would be an improvement at this point, and I've made no secret of how much I want to contain China.

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:
Yeah but you're assuming Trump meant a single thing he said during the campaign, and he didn't. Trump doesn't understand how to tie his shoes or fill a glass of water, let alone national and international policy.

If Trump has a saving grace, its that he cares so little about other people and understands so few things he might do the right thing by accident.

He has been pretty committed to his promises of abusing Mexicans.

That he has, but he's completely forgotten about his Wall, and opening the Libel Laws and jailing journalists and he hasn't nuked the Middle East like he promised, nor was the national debt eliminated in 6 months.

The lack of wall is his incompetence rather than not wanting to do it. He practically begs for it often enough though. There is a difference between trying to do something and failing, than to say you want to do something and not bothering.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
He has been pretty committed to his promises of abusing Mexicans.

That he has, but he's completely forgotten about his Wall, and opening the Libel Laws and jailing journalists and he hasn't nuked the Middle East like he promised, nor was the national debt eliminated in 6 months.

The lack of wall is his incompetence rather than not wanting to do it. He practically begs for it often enough though. There is a difference between trying to do something and failing, than to say you want to do something and not bothering.

It practically shows the utter incompetence of not only him, but congress which is owned by his party.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
He has been pretty committed to his promises of abusing Mexicans.

That he has, but he's completely forgotten about his Wall, and opening the Libel Laws and jailing journalists and he hasn't nuked the Middle East like he promised, nor was the national debt eliminated in 6 months.

The lack of wall is his incompetence rather than not wanting to do it. He practically begs for it often enough though. There is a difference between trying to do something and failing, than to say you want to do something and not bothering.

Its a saving grace none-the-less. This was a man who promised nuclear strikes on multiple nations during the campaign, 100% unaware Congress has to vote on strikes. So he didn't care enough to know that, it was just an applause line.

Likewise libel laws. There are not laws to open up. But again, he didn't care enough to know that, he's just pissed he loses 90% of his lawsuits.

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:

That he has, but he's completely forgotten about his Wall, and opening the Libel Laws and jailing journalists and he hasn't nuked the Middle East like he promised, nor was the national debt eliminated in 6 months.

The lack of wall is his incompetence rather than not wanting to do it. He practically begs for it often enough though. There is a difference between trying to do something and failing, than to say you want to do something and not bothering.

Its a saving grace none-the-less. This was a man who promised nuclear strikes on multiple nations during the campaign, 100% unaware Congress has to vote on strikes. So he didn't care enough to know that, it was just an applause line.

Likewise libel laws. There are not laws to open up. But again, he didn't care enough to know that, he's just pissed he loses 90% of his lawsuits.

Give him time. He has been eroding the rights and protections of everyone but him pretty consistently and pushing fascist ideas and suggestions and now nominating someone for SC cause he believes the President should be above the law. Hitler didn't start the holocaust day 1. He had a lot of rights and checks to destroy first.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
The lack of wall is his incompetence rather than not wanting to do it. He practically begs for it often enough though. There is a difference between trying to do something and failing, than to say you want to do something and not bothering.

Its a saving grace none-the-less. This was a man who promised nuclear strikes on multiple nations during the campaign, 100% unaware Congress has to vote on strikes. So he didn't care enough to know that, it was just an applause line.

Likewise libel laws. There are not laws to open up. But again, he didn't care enough to know that, he's just pissed he loses 90% of his lawsuits.

Give him time. He has been eroding the rights and protections of everyone but him pretty consistently and pushing fascist ideas and suggestions and now nominating someone for SC cause he believes the President should be above the law. Hitler didn't start the holocaust day 1. He had a lot of rights and checks to destroy first.

You like to invoke Godwin's law huh?

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Its a saving grace none-the-less. This was a man who promised nuclear strikes on multiple nations during the campaign, 100% unaware Congress has to vote on strikes. So he didn't care enough to know that, it was just an applause line.

Likewise libel laws. There are not laws to open up. But again, he didn't care enough to know that, he's just pissed he loses 90% of his lawsuits.

Give him time. He has been eroding the rights and protections of everyone but him pretty consistently and pushing fascist ideas and suggestions and now nominating someone for SC cause he believes the President should be above the law. Hitler didn't start the holocaust day 1. He had a lot of rights and checks to destroy first.

You like to invoke Godwin's law huh?

I will stop comparing Trump to Hitler when he stops being comparible to Hitler. Since I first compared to Hitler pre-November 2016, he has only become more and more like Hitler to the point where I genuinely worry he will start gassing people in the internment camps he has already made.

Seriously, WE ARE PAST THE POINT OF INTERMNET CAMPS THEY ARE REAL AND FILLED WITH CHILDREN!

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
Give him time. He has been eroding the rights and protections of everyone but him pretty consistently and pushing fascist ideas and suggestions and now nominating someone for SC cause he believes the President should be above the law. Hitler didn't start the holocaust day 1. He had a lot of rights and checks to destroy first.

You like to invoke Godwin's law huh?

I will stop comparing Trump to Hitler when he stops being comparible to Hitler. Since I first compared to Hitler pre-November 2016, he has only become more and more like Hitler to the point where I genuinely worry he will start gassing people in the internment camps he has already made.

Seriously, WE ARE PAST THE POINT OF INTERMNET CAMPS THEY ARE REAL AND FILLED WITH CHILDREN!

Seriously, we compare everything to Hitler, that has lost all meaning. Might as well compare Trump to Stalin.

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Its a saving grace none-the-less. This was a man who promised nuclear strikes on multiple nations during the campaign, 100% unaware Congress has to vote on strikes. So he didn't care enough to know that, it was just an applause line.

Likewise libel laws. There are not laws to open up. But again, he didn't care enough to know that, he's just pissed he loses 90% of his lawsuits.

Give him time. He has been eroding the rights and protections of everyone but him pretty consistently and pushing fascist ideas and suggestions and now nominating someone for SC cause he believes the President should be above the law. Hitler didn't start the holocaust day 1. He had a lot of rights and checks to destroy first.

You like to invoke Godwin's law huh?

Yeah, Trump is nothing like the guy who was putting people in camps and had people abducted from their homes for not having their papers.

Souplex:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
Give him time. He has been eroding the rights and protections of everyone but him pretty consistently and pushing fascist ideas and suggestions and now nominating someone for SC cause he believes the President should be above the law. Hitler didn't start the holocaust day 1. He had a lot of rights and checks to destroy first.

You like to invoke Godwin's law huh?

Yeah, Trump is nothing like the guy who was putting people in camps and had people abducted from their homes for not having their papers.

He's merely following our immigration laws. Until he has people being killed, I won't be comparing him to Hitler.

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

You like to invoke Godwin's law huh?

I will stop comparing Trump to Hitler when he stops being comparible to Hitler. Since I first compared to Hitler pre-November 2016, he has only become more and more like Hitler to the point where I genuinely worry he will start gassing people in the internment camps he has already made.

Seriously, WE ARE PAST THE POINT OF INTERMNET CAMPS THEY ARE REAL AND FILLED WITH CHILDREN!

Seriously, we compare everything to Hitler, that has lost all meaning. Might as well compare Trump to Stalin.

See, now you sound like Zontar, as he has said this too.

No, it does not make it lose meaning. What makes it lose meaning is a lack of understanding the patterns of history being repeated disturbingly note for note.

I wouldnt compare Trump to Stalin, Stalin was too competent. Putin is today's Stalin, or alteast he wants to be. And Hitler and Stalin were allies at the start. Maybe once he gets parts of Poland he will turn on Trump, but until then...

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
I will stop comparing Trump to Hitler when he stops being comparible to Hitler. Since I first compared to Hitler pre-November 2016, he has only become more and more like Hitler to the point where I genuinely worry he will start gassing people in the internment camps he has already made.

Seriously, WE ARE PAST THE POINT OF INTERMNET CAMPS THEY ARE REAL AND FILLED WITH CHILDREN!

Seriously, we compare everything to Hitler, that has lost all meaning. Might as well compare Trump to Stalin.

See, now you sound like Zontar, as he has said this too.

No, it does not make it lose meaning. What makes it lose meaning is a lack of understanding the patterns of history being repeated disturbingly note for note.

I wouldnt compare Trump to Stalin, Stalin was too competent. Putin is today's Stalin, or alteast he wants to be. And Hitler and Stalin were allies at the start. Maybe once he gets parts of Poland he will turn on Trump, but until then...

Oooh! I sound like Zontar! Maybe I'm his alt! You got me!

Seriously, I'm just tired of all the Hitler comparisons. It's the same as screaming racism when there's no racism happening, you're making it lose meaning.

WolvDragon:

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Seriously, we compare everything to Hitler, that has lost all meaning. Might as well compare Trump to Stalin.

See, now you sound like Zontar, as he has said this too.

No, it does not make it lose meaning. What makes it lose meaning is a lack of understanding the patterns of history being repeated disturbingly note for note.

I wouldnt compare Trump to Stalin, Stalin was too competent. Putin is today's Stalin, or alteast he wants to be. And Hitler and Stalin were allies at the start. Maybe once he gets parts of Poland he will turn on Trump, but until then...

Oooh! I sound like Zontar! Maybe I'm his alt! You got me!

Seriously, I'm just tired of all the Hitler comparisons. It's the same as screaming racism when there's no racism happening, you're making it lose meaning.

Im tired of the Hitler comparisons too, I just am more concerned with the guy doing Hitler things than the people who point them out.

You could take this more seriously ya know.

Saelune:

WolvDragon:

Saelune:
See, now you sound like Zontar, as he has said this too.

No, it does not make it lose meaning. What makes it lose meaning is a lack of understanding the patterns of history being repeated disturbingly note for note.

I wouldnt compare Trump to Stalin, Stalin was too competent. Putin is today's Stalin, or alteast he wants to be. And Hitler and Stalin were allies at the start. Maybe once he gets parts of Poland he will turn on Trump, but until then...

Oooh! I sound like Zontar! Maybe I'm his alt! You got me!

Seriously, I'm just tired of all the Hitler comparisons. It's the same as screaming racism when there's no racism happening, you're making it lose meaning.

Im tired of the Hitler comparisons too, I just am more concerned with the guy doing Hitler things than the people who point them out.

You could take this more seriously ya know.

And what are those? I have yet to see those Hitler things.

WolvDragon:
You like to invoke Godwin's law huh?

For the record, Godwin's Law is really a kind of ad hominem attack. "You like this thing? Well so did Hitler! Therefore it is bad and you are bad!" Thats why people invoking it are considered to have automatically lost the argument, because they're making a rather spurious appeal to emotions rather than using any actual fact or logic.
Comparing something to Hitler and the Nazis when those comparisons are becoming increasingly, horrifyingly more apt is not actually Godwin's Law. Hell, Michael Godwin himself, creator of the rule, has stated that he's pretty okay with a lot of the Trump/Hitler comparisons because...yeah, they've got a point

Palindromemordnilap:

WolvDragon:
You like to invoke Godwin's law huh?

For the record, Godwin's Law is really a kind of ad hominem attack. "You like this thing? Well so did Hitler! Therefore it is bad and you are bad!" Thats why people invoking it are considered to have automatically lost the argument, because they're making a rather spurious appeal to emotions rather than using any actual fact or logic.
Comparing something to Hitler and the Nazis when those comparisons are becoming increasingly, horrifyingly more apt is not actually Godwin's Law. Hell, Michael Godwin himself, creator of the rule, has stated that he's pretty okay with a lot of the Trump/Hitler comparisons because...yeah, they've got a point

Saelune isn't acting on facts, she's letting her blind hatred for Trump get to her by calling him Hitler.

Yeah no I don't see the Hitler comparisons.

WolvDragon:

Saelune isn't acting on facts, she's letting her blind hatred for Trump get to her by calling him Hitler.

Yeah no I don't see the Hitler comparisons.

You don't see how a man removing moderate influences from his government, blaming other races for all the problems of his nation, employing strong man tactics in his diplomacy towards other nations, apparently would quite like to invade surrounding nations, and who is now putting people ethnically different to him in camps might just be comparable to Hitler? Really? History not your strong suit?

Palindromemordnilap:

WolvDragon:

Saelune isn't acting on facts, she's letting her blind hatred for Trump get to her by calling him Hitler.

Yeah no I don't see the Hitler comparisons.

You don?t see how a man removing moderate influences from his government, blaming other races for all the problems of his nation, employing strong man tactics in his diplomacy towards other nations, apparently would quite like to invade surrounding nations, and who is now putting people ethnically different to him in camps might just be comparable to Hitler? Really? History not your strong suit?

A user on another forum I frequent brought this up with people opposing Nazi comparisons.

The thing is, very few people expect a nazi to be a nazi. Nazis are, to a lot of people, not real- They're a fairy tale, a morality play about people in a far away time and a far away place, not real people who did real things.

And so, because nazis are not 'real', the accusation that someone is a nazi is clearly purely hyperbole. When someone calls someone a nazi, that doesn't mean they're a nazi- It's merely an euphemistic, even facile, way for them to demonize the opposition. Insert your favorite "Everyone I disagree with is nazis!" meme here.

But the thing is, nazis were in fact real people. There was nothing supernatural about Nazi Germany which caused men to become monsters. The Nazi Empire was founded on human backs, by human hands, for human reasons.

And it can be founded again, by other humans.

Because fascism could never have risen in the first place if humans had not been willing, even eager, to embrace it.

Not all humans, fortunately. But enough.

Can US politicians, especially republicans, just make up their mind whether they support isolationist or "World Police" stance?

RobertEHouse:
If Venezuela was invaded would there really be a difference?

Yes, i believe "Death from above" added to things Venezuelans are currently worried about makes a difference.

RobertEHouse:
If Venezuela was invaded would there really be a difference?

I know a lot of people have already responded to this, but still, wtf?

Yes, invading a country makes a rather large difference almost always for the worse. When you blow up important infrastructure, kill lots of people, and antagonise the population of a country in general, things will get worse. People in Venezuela need food and a functioning economy, not death and destruction. Remember how the previous US invasions went down? Remember Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia? Bad places that became a lot worse due to an american invasion.

PsychedelicDiamond:
You know, by assuming they actually meant it when they claimed to support Trump because he's somehow less likely to start wars you're doing them a favor they don't really deserve. Noone in their right mind thought that Trump was more peaceful than Clinton.

It's one of many excuses they made so that they don't have acknowledge that they voted for him because they want bad things to happen to non white people.

There are no wholesome reasons to support Trump. People support him because they want to screw others over.

I agree and I resent the fact that so many people, even on the left, pretend otherwise. Perhaps distracting racists with not starting wars or with their economic trouble will work, so I won't blame politicians too much for lying through their teeth and saying that Trump voters were secretly well meaning people. I just hope they don't believe that themselves.

Zontar:

BreakfastMan:

Yeah, get rid of that fucker Saddam! Oh wait, I mean, Gaddafi! Oh wait, I mean al-Assad! Oh jeez, I mean Ho Chi Minh! Oh wait, I mean Madura. Sorry, I am getting confused, which war for oil human rights are we talking about now?

How about do it ourselves to stop the flood of refugees into Columbia before Columbia has enough and invades themselves?

But you see... why though. Why does the US and canada have to do anything here?

Silentpony:

That he has, but he's completely forgotten about his Wall

Nope. When the news of immigrant children being separated from their families were made known...

WolvDragon:
Might as well compare Trump to Stalin.

It might be an adequate comparison tho. Although I'd rather not wait for the body count raising enough to make perfectly accurate comparisons. Just saying.

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
Might as well compare Trump to Stalin.

It might be an adequate comparison tho. Although I'd rather not wait for the body count raising enough to make perfectly accurate comparisons. Just saying.

He isn't Stalin or Hitler. Trump is a moron, but he hasn't achieved that level of horribleness these two men achieved.

There is no comparison between Trump and Stalin. Stalin actually had plausible rationalizations for the necessity of his bloodletting and cruelty. Trump has none.

Somewhat more on topic, since this thread explicitly calls for a comparison:

Seanchaidh:
There is no comparison between Trump and Stalin. Stalin actually had plausible rationalizations for the necessity of his bloodletting and cruelty. Trump has none.

Jesus christ. How can anyone even begin to think like this? Trump has done nothing comparable to the cruelty of Stalin's genocides.

WolvDragon:

CaitSeith:

WolvDragon:
Might as well compare Trump to Stalin.

It might be an adequate comparison tho. Although I'd rather not wait for the body count raising enough to make perfectly accurate comparisons. Just saying.

He isn't Stalin or Hitler. Trump is a moron, but he hasn't achieved that level of horribleness these two men achieved.

People seem to be focusing on raw numbers when it comes to this, ignoring that many of the policies Trump has in place reflect early Nazi ones. We?ve even got to the point where he?s considering invading minor countries without provocation. People forget that Hitler was in power for 12 years, it didn't all come at once.

MrCalavera:
Can US politicians, especially republicans, just make up their mind whether they support isolationist or "World Police" stance?

Broadly, not that many people who tend to vote for right-wing parties are opposed to invading other countries. They object to invading other countries and it not being a cake-walk where they take minimal casualties and everything post-war resolves itself neatly. In other words, if every war were a Grenada or Panama, it'd just be a bit of the libertarian fringe complaining. When the cold shivers from Iraq wear off (as eventually Vietnam did), they'll be up for chewing on a major target again.

Zontar:
It's time we actually uphold our values for once and either soft power him out of office, or strong power him out of office. The world will be the better for it.

The Americas have already been soft powering him out of office: the current chaos is at least partly the result.

This sort of thing has been done before, e.g. Allende in Chile, Mossadegh in Iran. Democratically elected leaders have their power subverted, and when they try to maintain order are characterised as brutal dictators to justify more forceful tactics. This is not to say Chavez and Maduro or others are saints, or even that they ran their countries well, or that they never overstepped decency in attempts to crack down on the violence and disorder being incited by foreign interests. Just that the steps they go to they are in significant part pushed towards by a deliberate tactic of undermining them.

What we also need to consider about much of Latin America is that it has a particular legacy of colonial rule. These countries have an overwhelmingly European-descent colonial class who own everything worth owning and traditionally have made laws for themselves, and an underclass of almost peasants who are far more likely to be native American or mixed race. These aren't decent places in the first place. They are places full of widespread exploitation and underdevelopment of the poor whilst the rich reap wealth in spades, often through outright corruption. Chavez and Maduro aren't just by the numbers socialist dictators, they represent a real anger, frustration and injustice of their country's poor. When we casually talk about restoring order, what we actually mean is handing control of the country straight back to the elites that have been exploiting them for centuries... and who will continue doing so. Indeed, that's why they are attracted to socialism: because capitalism, for them, is their generations-long exploitation. Why should they love and esteem an ideology that ground them into the dirt and kept its boot on their head?

Probably Venezuala would be a better place with Maduro forcefully removed at this point. But perhaps it never needed to have got to this stage if more effort had been made to work with them as far as possible, rather than against them.

erttheking:

WolvDragon:

CaitSeith:

It might be an adequate comparison tho. Although I'd rather not wait for the body count raising enough to make perfectly accurate comparisons. Just saying.

He isn't Stalin or Hitler. Trump is a moron, but he hasn't achieved that level of horribleness these two men achieved.

People seem to be focusing on raw numbers when it comes to this, ignoring that many of the policies Trump has in place reflect early Nazi ones. We?ve even got to the point where he?s considering invading minor countries without provocation. People forget that Hitler was in power for 12 years, it didn?t all come at once.

And what are those policies? And please don't say seperating families because previous presidents have done it.

Seanchaidh:
Stalin actually had plausible rationalizations for the necessity of his bloodletting and cruelty.

I kinda want to know what rationalization he came up with to decide to export food while millions of USSR citizens starved to death.

Agema:

Probably Venezuala would be a better place with Maduro forcefully removed at this point. But perhaps it never needed to have got to this stage if more effort had been made to work with them as far as possible, rather than against them.

I don't think that would have been a realistic outcome if a serious effort had been attempted. Remember that Maduro is the one who initially cut off exports of oil to the US as a sanction against US policy/actions, and that's what turned what had been a slow decay under Chavez into the collapse we've seen, since while at the time 5% of US oil imports came from Venezuela, 50% of Venezuela's oil exports went to the US. Once that one act had been done, I don't think there was any stopping it since things snowballed from there into what we have now.

Whatever the plan to deal with an intervention, either preemptively or in response to a complete collapse, at the very least the US and Colombia need to come together to figure out how to put any plan in motion.

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