Do you?
Yes
35% (147)
35% (147)
No
40.7% (171)
40.7% (171)
I'm ambivalent
23.6% (99)
23.6% (99)
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Poll: Do you like the GameOverthinker?

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Foolproof:
Yes, if you ignore in every way how Kane actually proved what Film could be used for, as in, the entire reason it is remembered to this day as a piece of art and not as something wholly technical. Fine, its not a Stereoscopic - Ocarina of Time is Birth of a Nation. Technically its influential. From a story, a character, an artistic perspective, it is absolutely nothing of value whatsoever.

...That's a really uncomfortable thing to say.

On soooo many levels.

Are you familiar with...ANY of the three works you've been talking about? Because I find it hard to believe you would type that if you were.

That's incredibly distasteful, and condescending.

Foolproof:

maninahat:

Foolproof:
Compared to fucking what? The Irate Gamer?

In fairness to the irate gamer, he's the guy that got me into internet reviewing in the first place. I knew him before I knew AVGN or anyone else, so I wasn't automatically butthurt over the existance of his videos. The guy honestly makes me laugh. I've since moved onto better things (like AVGN) but I've never had have a problem with him. He certainly isn't worth all the fury.

To be honest, I'm not that familiar with him. I just have heard of him as the baseline of bad, uninspired, insightful videogame commenters.

He's basically a derivative of AVGN, but he's not that bad. Most of the complaints stem from the AVGN fan dumb, who respond with disproportionate amounts of rage to anyone who might steal AVGN's thunder. Contrariwise, Irate Gamer has a furious fandom that's at least as aggressive and idiotic.

Up until his "Sonic and how to save it" videos, I would've given him the benefit of someone who at least seemed to come off as knowing what he was talking about, if a bit presumptuous at times. Afterwards, videos such as "Why FPS's suck", "Why retro is good", and even the "Heaven's to Metroid" only seemed to strengthen my worries about what direction he was starting to take.

It was clear that we weren't only dealing with someone who had a very strong Nintendo bias that was clouding over some of their logic, but his arguments just didn't make much sense anymore. It eventually just boiled down to "If it wasn't made by Nintendo or in Japan, then it isn't worth anything and is dragging the industry down". It was during his story arc with the Anti-thinker that I knew that there was nothing of value left. From what I understand his story arcs haven't gotten any better.

He's just too arrogant for my liking. He seems to pretty much imply that if you don't share his attitude or his belief then you are simply beneath him. No compromise, no negotiation, just pure arrogance. "Oh, you hate Metroid Other M? You must think all Japanese people are terrible too you xenophobe." "Oh, you play FPSs? Looks like we know who the bro douche bag is huh?" "You hated the ME3 ending? You're holding the medium of video games as art back!"

His arrogance is also just plain ignorance when you consider that he'll comment on games such as Uncharted or Mass Effect without actually playing them. Even if he just played the demos or borrowed them from friends for a bit that would be fine, instead he simply watches videos on youtube of people playing and then claims that's all he needed to know in order to comment. Comments based on first impressions is fine, but watching videos and playing the game aren't the same. It would be like me simply saying that reading the wikipedia entry on Citizen Kane is as good as actually watching it.

Eternal_Lament:

His arrogance is also just plain ignorance when you consider that he'll comment on games such as Uncharted or Mass Effect without actually playing them. Even if he just played the demos or borrowed them from friends for a bit that would be fine, instead he simply watches videos on youtube of people playing and then claims that's all he needed to know in order to comment. Comments based on first impressions is fine, but watching videos and playing the game aren't the same. It would be like me simply saying that reading the wikipedia entry on Citizen Kane is as good as actually watching it.

he didn't even watch the ending to Mass effect before commenting.

i don't like him much, because the story segments are bad and he is way to narrow-minded when it comes to games. i mean he hates the metroid prime games because "they put their evil fps in ym beloved franchise"

i have no clue who that is

Vault101:

Mcoffey:

Well he was mainly talking about the reaction from the fans regarding Mass Effect 3, not the game itself. You don't need to play the games to know they were being stupid and childish.
.

I disagree

generally speaking people who were part of or at least took issue with the ending had played (and liked) the mass effect games

while peopel telling the "whiny fanboys to STFU" generally hadnt played it or didn;t like Mass effect in the first palce

yes I'm making gross generalisations here, but really it generally went that the more you liked the games the more the ending fiasco was a slap in the face

Tuesday Night Fever:

Mcoffey:
Well he was mainly talking about the reaction from the fans regarding Mass Effect 3, not the game itself. You don't need to play the games to know they were being stupid and childish.

Admittedly, I wholeheartedly disagree. If a consumer is unhappy with something that they've purchased, they have every right to complain about it and every right to ask the producer of that item for either it to be changed or a refund. Whether or not the producer decides to cave in to those requests is entirely their call. I love how thanks to the whole mess with Mass Effect 3 'entitled' has becomes a dirty word of sorts within the gaming community. Most people clearly seem to miss the point of the word. As consumers we are entitled - all of us. We're entitled to receive goods and services as advertised, and if we feel the goods or services we buy do not adequately meet the promises made by the producers, we're well within our rights to seek compensation for it.

Frankly, despite the "Retake ME3" movement's best efforts, I honestly found their opposition (like Bob) to be significantly more immature about the whole thing. As someone who was fairly neutral toward the ME3 ending I couldn't wait for Bob to stop ranting and go back to his Mario games. Partly because I was sick of seeing the pretty blatant flamebaits he was putting out there, likely just for the attention, and partly because I didn't want the mainstream media to catch wind of the situation and have his behavior make gamers as a whole appear that much worse to the world.

As consumers, we have every right to hope the products we buy are up to a certain standard of quality, and to be dissatisfied when they aren't, especially so when you're a PC gamer and your product is non-refundable. I believe we have every right to voice our displeasure. However, that still doesn't mean the way the Retakers did voice their gargantuan displeasure was much different than the whiny bitching of a 4-year-old who got a new pair of jeans in his christmas present instead of a new toy.

There's a right way to do these things, and a wrong way. For the most part, I saw a good chunk of the Retakers doing it the wrong way.

And yes I have played all three Mass Effect games multiple times (Except the third one, because that ending is still bullshit even after the Extended Cut).

Overusedname:

Foolproof:

Yes, if you ignore in every way how Kane actually proved what Film could be used for, as in, the entire reason it is remembered to this day as a piece of art and not as something wholly technical. Fine, its not a Stereoscopic - Ocarina of Time is Birth of a Nation. Technically its influential. From a story, a character, an artistic perspective, it is absolutely nothing of value whatsoever.

I think the fact that you not only ignored the deeply symbolic nature of Link's sudden transition to adulthood, but actually jumped to comparing a game about 6 different cultures uniting to save the world from a dictator to the most popular racist film ever made is a proof enough that this conversation is not going anywhere.

Shigeru Miyamoto made a popular game you didn't like. It was a game about a little boy learning how hard it is to grow up

Wrong. He never grew up. He physically matured, but no actual emotional maturity ever once took place.

accept the fact that loved ones die

Wrong. Not a single loved one dies. Unless you're changing the meaning of "loved one" to "casual acquaintance".

and that time changes

Wrong. Beyond a cosmetic change in one city, time does not change signifigantly

He faces this challenge by accepting that responsibility of adulthood

Wrong. He accepted no responsibilities as he never actually made the acceptance of blame. He was an emotionless, will-less lapdog doing what everyone else told him.

making lifelong companions and transcending cultural differences through music, art, kindness and courage.

By which you mean impressing the middle easterners with his helping them in theivery, and in being a skilled jailbreak man.

You just compared this work to a film that resurrected the popularity of the K.K.K. Possibly the single most damaging propaganda film outside of the WW2 era.

Birth of a Nation is viewed today completely outside of its meaning and its intent, and is appreciated on its technical merits alone. Ocarina of Time doesn't have any meaning or intent. In terms of what they are in the context of gamings evolution, they work perfectly.

I like all Moviebob's stuff, so yes. While the story segments are unneccesary, i've kind of grown to enjoy them. He usually has something interesting to say.

Mcoffey:
As consumers, we have every right to hope the products we buy are up to a certain standard of quality, and to be dissatisfied when they aren't, especially so when you're a PC gamer and your product is non-refundable. I believe we have every right to voice our displeasure. However, that still doesn't mean the way the Retakers did voice their gargantuan displeasure was much different than the whiny bitching of a 4-year-old who got a new pair of jeans in his christmas present instead of a new toy.

There's a right way to do these things, and a wrong way. For the most part, I saw a good chunk of the Retakers doing it the wrong way.

And yes I have played all three Mass Effect games multiple times (Except the third one, because that ending is still bullshit even after the Extended Cut).

We don't "hope" that products meet a standard of quality advertised by the producer, we "expect" it to be. If you bought a new TV, got it home and set it up, then found out that the display wasn't working as advertised and all the colors were slightly off, you wouldn't just say "Oh well, I guess I'll keep it because it's still the TV that was on the box and looked great in the advertisements!" No, you'd contact their service line to have it repaired, or you'd try to return it to the store, or you'd try to get it exchanged for something else. I worked at a Best Buy for a while, and TVs are generally considered a 'non-refundable' item, and yet it still happens. Want to know a secret? Usually the people that actually managed to get their money back were the ones who made the biggest fuss about it and stood up for themselves. And even if it didn't happen, so what? Who is being actively harmed by you trying to get your money back? Hell, if PC games are non-refundable, isn't it odd that when Diablo 3 proved to be a disappointment to many people they were able to get refunds? I'm pretty sure Amazon even gave out refunds for ME3 in some regions for a little while. There were also refunds offered for Battlefield 3 in some areas.

Frankly, the method of the "Retake" movement's expression doesn't bother me at all, because whatever form they choose to express themselves is irrelevant (so long as no one gets hurt, and sorry, but hurt feelings don't count). They were sold a product that they felt didn't meet the standards promised to them. If you try to stop people from voicing their concern over being sold a sub-standard product simply because you don't like the words that they use, I'm sorry, but you have literally no moral high ground. You're as bad, if not worse, than those you oppose since at least those people aren't going out of their way to squash your rights as a consumer. Hell, they're defending them, in a mostly bile-filled sort of way.

Tuesday Night Fever:
Frankly, despite the "Retake ME3" movement's best efforts, I honestly found their opposition (like Bob) to be significantly more immature about the whole thing.

As far as I know, you're the only person on the planet beside myself who noticed this, though I have pointed it out several times. Every Mass Effect thread was composed mostly of calm, reasoned complaints followed by someone calling them entitled, screaming crybabies and assholes (or "Massholes"). I felt like I was going crazy.

That, and I hate how almost every issue does not get discussed because all anyone can talk about is whether the scale of the community reaction was appropriate. Who gives a fuck? Really, who cares? It's just an excuse to dismiss the issue by attacking something else.

I agree with OP 100%, he might not be unbiased, but who is? He's still made good episodes like "pr0n" and "The Zen of Grind."

I love the GTO.

Rooster Cogburn:
...and assholes (or "Massholes").

Heh, I thought that's what we were calling people from Massachusetts. I kid, I kid!

Rooster Cogburn:
That, and I hate how almost every issue does not get discussed because all anyone can talk about is whether the scale of the community reaction was appropriate. Who gives a fuck? Really, who cares? It's just an excuse to dismiss the issue by attacking something else.

To be fair, professional troll Zeal wasn't helping matters much for either side. He made the "Retake" crowd look that much worse, while actively calling out his opposition and provoking them into the equivalent of a verbal Thunderdome fight.

I only recently found out about his other shows outside of The Escapist, and my first GO show was Episode 71 "Eulogi" and I've gone through his entire videography and can say, I probably agree with him more than I disagree. I definitely don't see eye-to-eye with him on everything, his continued existence that it's only kids who enjoy the first party Nintendo games rather than the more "mature" Call of Duty games is a bugbear of mine, considering I remember when I was a kid and if there was violence in it, I wanted to play it. On that same token though we do pretty much hate the same games and I've definitely been increasingly more and more turned off by what I see gaming becoming, and maybe only play 2 or 3 AAA games a year. The major difference between us though is that I was a PC gamer first, and not only that but a PC gamer in the late '80's and early '90's so I got to experience the Golden Age of PC gaming, and it definitely bugs me how he pretty much just ignores that facet, or only focusing on multiplayer games.

Tuesday Night Fever:

Rooster Cogburn:
...and assholes (or "Massholes").

Heh, I thought that's what we were calling people from Massachusetts. I kid, I kid!

Rooster Cogburn:
That, and I hate how almost every issue does not get discussed because all anyone can talk about is whether the scale of the community reaction was appropriate. Who gives a fuck? Really, who cares? It's just an excuse to dismiss the issue by attacking something else.

To be fair, professional troll Zeal wasn't helping matters much for either side. He made the "Retake" crowd look that much worse, while actively calling out his opposition and provoking them into the equivalent of a verbal Thunderdome fight.

Well screw him then for redirecting attention away from the issue and making me read endless paragraphs about those crazy Retakers lol. I don't know who that is, but I still say "who cares"? People are whiny bitches, now can we talk about video games for a change?

Im mixed about Movie Bob on a whole. In regards to his OverThinker persona, there are a number of times I agreed with him whole-heartedly. Than I started to realise just how narror his views can be in some cases. Im also tired of the nostalgia that remains in all his GO vids.

Simply... I still like hearing what he has to say, as he does have some good things to say, but im always one step away from disregarding everything he says.

Rooster Cogburn:
Well screw him then for redirecting attention away from the issue and making me read endless paragraphs about those crazy Retakers lol. I don't know who that is, but I still say "who cares"? People are whiny bitches, now can we talk about video games for a change?

I think he ended up getting banned after someone showed a moderator a post he'd made on a different forum admitting that he was intentionally stirring up shit in the Mass Effect threads just to mess with people.

I do wholeheartedly agree with you though. The gaming community as a whole seems far more fragmented and confrontational these days than it used to in years past. Gamers these days, I'll admit even myself from time to time, seem far too eager to attack other gamers for their personal beliefs rather than having calm discussion. Maybe I'm looking at the situation through rose-tinted glasses, and pining for the supposed "golden ages" of years past... but at the end of the day, our preferences may differ from gamer to gamer, but we're all gamers here - and that's what we should be celebrating, rather than assigning blame and hatred for perceived injustices. This is why I can't call myself a fan of The Game Overthinker persona, despite generally being favorable toward Bob's endeavors. The Overthinker spends too much of his time and resources being intentionally confrontational (or sometimes dismissive), rather than just acknowledging that no one's opinions of various games are universal. Even his. Call it political correctness or censorship or whatever you want, but I honestly do believe Bob could be a major source of good for promoting the status of gamers in the public eye if he were to be a more objective commentator.

he is intelligent and reflective and has a ot of insight, however he has permanent nostalgia goggles on and cannot or will not try to see why any genre beyond his nostalgia sphere are valid or rather do not require validation to be an equal part of the medium.

i enjoy listening to his opinions on some issues though because even if a disagree he does get you to think about certain things from different perspectives.

but my major gripe besides his fanboyism is the atrocious pain of watching his outer show, with that zelda fairy called melvin or something... i get that he enjoys making it but man is really awful in my opinion. not that it is a big thing after all i usually just skip forward.

so yeah it is one of the shows i really like and still watch occasionally. i enjoy his shows here on the escapist more, because its more his insight and knowledge that is being used and less of himself preaching

I use to really, really like the GameOverthinker. He introduced me to a lot of ideas and concepts that have stuck with me and he introduced me to all sorts of things like Zero Punctuation, which brought me here. However, I have to admit I haven't watched his stuff in a LONG time. Even now when I still only disagree with him a small percentage of the time I feel like I've gotten everything I ever will out of that show. I don't begrudge it too much, but I am done with it.

What he says is usually worth listening to, but the way he completely ignores anything made after the SNES era apart from to bitch about modern shooters (And fawn over Nintendo's retro-cash-ins) annoys me to no end. Very smart guy, but needs to open up his horizons a bit. So ambivalent.

OH! I forgot to add this in my previous post, but his story bits. The Anti-thinker and Necrothinker. The former being biased against everything not modern and not warfare (IDK, I honestly didnt bother with those), and the NecroThinker, being something that was effectivly against anything part of modern gaming (what was effectively the Anti-Anti-thinker).

And Bob faught them both and won. Ive realised something that should have been obviouse before. While the Anti-thinker was intended to show him as a move thoughtful Thinker that looks at things objectivly, The Necrothinker was a caricature of himself. The fact that the Necrothinker was the Retrothinker (who was Bob himself) makes this more obvious. The completely biased hatred of everything not retro, with Bob fighting against it is suppose to show that he wasnt a complete nostalgia fanboy.

He basically created Strawmen for people to compare him to to show that, "no, he isnt that bad."

Coolshark:
It's tough to take his gaming opinion seriously when he constantly talks about how much 'the 90's sucked.'

I'm speaking objectively here: If you deny the power and positivity of the late nineties for this medium, you're kind of insane.

He's way to dedicated to his tight little niche of game culture.

Most of the 90's did suck on PC (with some notable exceptions of course) but that was only because of all the amazing games being made for the Mac only. Stuff like Bad Mojo (later ported to PC) Escape Velocity, the Marathon series (by Bungie, who were a Mac first developer), Abuse (also Bungie) and just really oodles of games that either the PC never saw or that were ported much later.

The 90's were great if you combine what happened on both platforms though.

I don't agree with him on everything, but I enjoy a lot (if not most) of his stuff. He has opinions, viewpoints, and biases regarding entertainment that are specific to his own background that influence his outlook, but he at least makes those clear enough that you know what lens to view his criticisms through, which is important for any critic.

Reincarnatedwolfgod:

Overusedname:

Vault101:

I disagree....did you see Jims video today?

Mario is getting old and stale

I still don't see how that changes the effect of the old games.

And Mario is far from being stagnant. As Jim said, he's on his way. Which is a shame because Galaxy has proven that he can still innovate and inspire like crazy.

maybe it will innovate again but the question is
after space where do you go next?

Hell.

*Cocks shotgun.*

OT: No, not really. I used to follow him, but slowly stopped, heard arguments from critics, and found some truth in what they said. Most notably, his fanboy status and the thought that it's a blinding agent.

So I suppose no, I do not like the Game Overthinker.

I'm ambivalent towards him. I can't be bothered with getting upset about him.

What a lot of his dissenters don't understand is that they are opinions. Opinions are not meant to be nice all the time. They can be controversial. If you don't like his opinion, then he must be doing something right.

Of course Bob's dissenters are the type to complain if someone goes after their favorite things in a similar manner to Moviebob. They are just too young to realize they are doing the same thing.

Coolshark:
It's tough to take his gaming opinion seriously when he constantly talks about how much 'the 90's sucked.'

I'm speaking objectively here: If you deny the power and positivity of the late nineties for this medium, you're kind of insane.

He's way to dedicated to his tight little niche of game culture.

Can you quantify these objectively good parts of the 90s? Or does it not help your argument if you put words to those thoughts?

Also, "positivity" is a subjective term.

Overusedname:

Foolproof:

Yes, if you ignore in every way how Kane actually proved what Film could be used for, as in, the entire reason it is remembered to this day as a piece of art and not as something wholly technical. Fine, its not a Stereoscopic - Ocarina of Time is Birth of a Nation. Technically its influential. From a story, a character, an artistic perspective, it is absolutely nothing of value whatsoever.

I think the fact that you not only ignored the deeply symbolic nature of Link's sudden transition to adulthood, but actually jumped to comparing a game about 6 different cultures uniting to save the world from a dictator to the most popular racist film ever made is a proof enough that this conversation is not going anywhere.

Shigeru Miyamoto made a popular game you didn't like. It was a game about a little boy learning how hard it is to grow up, accept the fact that loved ones die, and that time changes. He faces this challenge by accepting that responsibility of adulthood, and making lifelong companions and transcending cultural differences through music, art, kindness and courage.

You just compared this work to a film that resurrected the popularity of the K.K.K. Possibly the single most damaging propaganda film outside of the WW2 era.

Unless I misread something, that is literally one of the strangest, most bitter and hateful things I've ever heard someone state in my life thus far, which is why I'll end the conversation here. If this goes any further, someone's getting banned and/or traumatized.

Well... as distasteful as "The Birth of a Nation" is... it WAS influetnial, and not just for the revival of the KKK. "Birth of a Nation" DID, in fact break new ground in terms of actual story, it's the first blockbuster. It's an undeniably racist film, but you gotta give credit where credit is due.

Tuesday Night Fever:

Mcoffey:
As consumers, we have every right to hope the products we buy are up to a certain standard of quality, and to be dissatisfied when they aren't, especially so when you're a PC gamer and your product is non-refundable. I believe we have every right to voice our displeasure. However, that still doesn't mean the way the Retakers did voice their gargantuan displeasure was much different than the whiny bitching of a 4-year-old who got a new pair of jeans in his christmas present instead of a new toy.

There's a right way to do these things, and a wrong way. For the most part, I saw a good chunk of the Retakers doing it the wrong way.

And yes I have played all three Mass Effect games multiple times (Except the third one, because that ending is still bullshit even after the Extended Cut).

We don't "hope" that products meet a standard of quality advertised by the producer, we "expect" it to be. If you bought a new TV, got it home and set it up, then found out that the display wasn't working as advertised and all the colors were slightly off, you wouldn't just say "Oh well, I guess I'll keep it because it's still the TV that was on the box and looked great in the advertisements!" No, you'd contact their service line to have it repaired, or you'd try to return it to the store, or you'd try to get it exchanged for something else. I worked at a Best Buy for a while, and TVs are generally considered a 'non-refundable' item, and yet it still happens. Want to know a secret? Usually the people that actually managed to get their money back were the ones who made the biggest fuss about it and stood up for themselves. And even if it didn't happen, so what? Who is being actively harmed by you trying to get your money back? Hell, if PC games are non-refundable, isn't it odd that when Diablo 3 proved to be a disappointment to many people they were able to get refunds? I'm pretty sure Amazon even gave out refunds for ME3 in some regions for a little while. There were also refunds offered for Battlefield 3 in some areas.

Frankly, the method of the "Retake" movement's expression doesn't bother me at all, because whatever form they choose to express themselves is irrelevant (so long as no one gets hurt, and sorry, but hurt feelings don't count). They were sold a product that they felt didn't meet the standards promised to them. If you try to stop people from voicing their concern over being sold a sub-standard product simply because you don't like the words that they use, I'm sorry, but you have literally no moral high ground. You're as bad, if not worse, than those you oppose since at least those people aren't going out of their way to squash your rights as a consumer. Hell, they're defending them, in a mostly bile-filled sort of way.

Asking for a refund is one thing, and it's a thing i'm totally fine with. Demanding the creators go back and "fix" it, is something else entirely.

And, of course, they have every right to say all that. Just as I have every right to call them out as the whiny cunts they are.

Tuesday Night Fever:

Mcoffey:
As consumers, we have every right to hope the products we buy are up to a certain standard of quality, and to be dissatisfied when they aren't, especially so when you're a PC gamer and your product is non-refundable. I believe we have every right to voice our displeasure. However, that still doesn't mean the way the Retakers did voice their gargantuan displeasure was much different than the whiny bitching of a 4-year-old who got a new pair of jeans in his christmas present instead of a new toy.

There's a right way to do these things, and a wrong way. For the most part, I saw a good chunk of the Retakers doing it the wrong way.

And yes I have played all three Mass Effect games multiple times (Except the third one, because that ending is still bullshit even after the Extended Cut).

We don't "hope" that products meet a standard of quality advertised by the producer, we "expect" it to be. If you bought a new TV, got it home and set it up, then found out that the display wasn't working as advertised and all the colors were slightly off, you wouldn't just say "Oh well, I guess I'll keep it because it's still the TV that was on the box and looked great in the advertisements!" No, you'd contact their service line to have it repaired, or you'd try to return it to the store, or you'd try to get it exchanged for something else. I worked at a Best Buy for a while, and TVs are generally considered a 'non-refundable' item, and yet it still happens. Want to know a secret? Usually the people that actually managed to get their money back were the ones who made the biggest fuss about it and stood up for themselves. And even if it didn't happen, so what? Who is being actively harmed by you trying to get your money back? Hell, if PC games are non-refundable, isn't it odd that when Diablo 3 proved to be a disappointment to many people they were able to get refunds? I'm pretty sure Amazon even gave out refunds for ME3 in some regions for a little while. There were also refunds offered for Battlefield 3 in some areas.

So going by your analogy, something should function when you purchase it. I get that. What I don't get is what that has to do with the Retake movement. The game functions as advertised, there is nothing functionally wrong with the game. Returning something that doesn't work is completely different than returning something because you didn't like the last 5 minutes. This isn't a product issue, it's an artistic and opinion related one.

Then again, it's not the people wanting a refund I had trouble with, it's the people who demanded that Bioware change it to meet some mystical standard of quality.

Foolproof:
He never grew up. He physically matured, but no actual emotional maturity ever once took place.

You've...watched citizen Kane yet think all character development has to be stated to be valid? Kane never looks at the camera and says 'I'm now a shell of my former self.' The player experiences personal growth via experience through Link, exploring the world, learning new music and abilities, learning more about the world, etc. He's not emotionally the same person he was when he stared, having witnessed a traumatizing image of the future as well as the death of several people.

Not a single loved one dies.

The Deku Tree. His parental Figure.

First 2 hours of the game. First exposure to the negative effect of time, and the player's first encounter with death.

Beyond a cosmetic change in one city, time does not change significantly

Will all due respect, the evidence is adding up that you have not played this game. The Zora City is a frozen wasteland, the Kokori forest is over run with monsters, the Goron's have been kidnapped and the farmhand at Lon Lon Ranch is now the owner and has essentially kidnapped Malon. There's a very dark transition in terms of the games subject matter. One of the early temples is about saving the gorons from being eaten alive by a dragon.

Wrong. He accepted no responsibilities as he never actually made the acceptance of blame. He was an emotionless, will-less lapdog doing what everyone else told him.

The second part is open to interpretation. The first part is contradictory to his actions in game. Anyone who accepts the burden of leaving his home town to go on a random quest to save the world just because someone asked probably has some moral motivation.

He also has subtle emotional reactions to things, such as his sad hesitation when leaving Saria when he enters Hyrule Feild, or his look of happiness when he and Zelda beat Ganon, or the fact that he visits Zelda after his journey is over despite the fact that his destiny is fulfilled, simply because he wants to see Zelda again.

By which you mean impressing the middle easterners with his helping them in theivery, and in being a skilled jailbreak man.

...The subtle racism is started to make me nauseous.

Anyway, can you honestly deny what he did to help the Gorons? The Zora's? The Kokori? Zelda? He went out of his way to save the world for no personal bennifit and made friends along the way. And he made friends along the way. It's not that complicated.

Birth of a Nation is viewed today completely outside of its meaning and its intent, and is appreciated on its technical merits alone.

My friend, I don't know how to even describe how offensive that statement is, and I think you should watch your forum health.

That film is, to this very day, used as a K.K.K. recruitment tool. A single google search will reveal that. It is not a cute little movie with some uncomfortable undertones like gone with the wind. Black people are the bad guys, and the K.K.K. are portrayed as the good guys.

{b]Ocarina of Time doesn't have any meaning or intent.[/b] In terms of what they are in the context of gamings evolution, they work perfectly.

You have to play it before you can make that claim. I don't think a game with that much story telling, detail, character and theming is just a random bunch of polygons thrown on a screen. I actually think it's overrated myself, but if you think it wasn't trying to mean SOMETHING or was designed with some goal in mind, you don't understand how a videogame is made.

Please drop the Birth of a Nation thing.

Foolproof:

Overusedname:

Foolproof:

Yes, if you ignore in every way how Kane actually proved what Film could be used for, as in, the entire reason it is remembered to this day as a piece of art and not as something wholly technical. Fine, its not a Stereoscopic - Ocarina of Time is Birth of a Nation. Technically its influential. From a story, a character, an artistic perspective, it is absolutely nothing of value whatsoever.

I think the fact that you not only ignored the deeply symbolic nature of Link's sudden transition to adulthood, but actually jumped to comparing a game about 6 different cultures uniting to save the world from a dictator to the most popular racist film ever made is a proof enough that this conversation is not going anywhere.

Shigeru Miyamoto made a popular game you didn't like. It was a game about a little boy learning how hard it is to grow up

Wrong. He never grew up. He physically matured, but no actual emotional maturity ever once took place.

accept the fact that loved ones die

Wrong. Not a single loved one dies.

and that time changes

Wrong. Beyond a cosmetic change in one city, time does not change signifigantly

He faces this challenge by accepting that responsibility of adulthood

Wrong. He accepted no responsibilities as he never actually made the acceptance of blame. He was an emotionless, will-less lapdog doing what everyone else told him.

making lifelong companions and transcending cultural differences through music, art, kindness and courage.

By which you mean impressing the middle easterners with his helping them in theivery, and in being a skilled jailbreak man.

You just compared this work to a film that resurrected the popularity of the K.K.K. Possibly the single most damaging propaganda film outside of the WW2 era.

Birth of a Nation is viewed today completely outside of its meaning and its intent, and is appreciated on its technical merits alone. Ocarina of Time doesn't have any meaning or intent. In terms of what they are in the context of gamings evolution, they work perfectly.

This sounds like a case of "I didn't play the game but I still hate it."

It also sounds like a case of not knowing how racism works. Or being A-Okay with it. Either-or.

Not that I'm really accusing you of that, but your posts certainly make it LOOK like you're either toting the artistica brilliance of the worlds most racist, worthless film, or insulting a game you don't like by comparing it to something racist.

I don't think anyone would actually do these things, so I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt.

I don't imagine he's a fellow I'd like to have a drink with, so no.

trty00:

Well... as distasteful as "The Birth of a Nation" is... it WAS influetnial, and not just for the revival of the KKK. "Birth of a Nation" DID, in fact break new ground in terms of actual story, it's the first blockbuster. It's an undeniably racist film, but you gotta give credit where credit is due.

I can't help but doubt that was the guys intention when he referenced that film.

It broke ground in terms of popularity as a movie that told a story. It was far from the first to do so, and it got popular not on it's artistic merit. It got popular because of White America's popular views at the time. It was the first movie shown in the white house, allegedly.

It was an important film, but it had verrrry little positive influence in the grand scheme of things. It's broke artistic ground, yes, but the average film professor won't tell you anything good about it. Both in terms of message and actual artistic delivery. It's also considered to be a very clumsily scripted film, though I guess that could be said of a lot of silent films.

Besides, the poster's intended point was that Ocarina didn't have any artistic point, right? So he could have compared it to a technically well-produced film with little plot, instead he chose the most racist film ever.

I can't help but feel some...malevolent intent.

Coolshark:

trty00:

Well... as distasteful as "The Birth of a Nation" is... it WAS influetnial, and not just for the revival of the KKK. "Birth of a Nation" DID, in fact break new ground in terms of actual story, it's the first blockbuster. It's an undeniably racist film, but you gotta give credit where credit is due.

I can't help but doubt that was the guys intention when he referenced that film.

It broke ground in terms of popularity as a movie that told a story. It was far from the first to do so, and it got popular not on it's artistic merit. It got popular because of White America's popular views at the time. It was the first movie shown in the white house, allegedly.

It was an important film, but it had verrrry little positive influence in the grand scheme of things. It's broke artistic ground, yes, but the average film professor won't tell you anything good about it. Both in terms of message and actual artistic delivery. It's also considered to be a very clumsily scripted film, though I guess that could be said of a lot of silent films.

Besides, the poster's intended point was that Ocarina didn't have any artistic point, right? So he could have compared it to a technically well-produced film with little plot, instead he chose the most racist film ever.

I can't help but feel some...malevolent intent.

You don't mean that I'M the one with "malevolent intent" do you?

Mcoffey:
Asking for a refund is one thing, and it's a thing i'm totally fine with. Demanding the creators go back and "fix" it, is something else entirely.

And, of course, they have every right to say all that. Just as I have every right to call them out as the whiny cunts they are.

If you buy that TV and the display, as previously mentioned, looks "off" to you - but you still like the TV and want to keep it, you have every right to demand that the manufacturer fix it for you, regardless of whether or not there's actually something wrong. I could dig up a dozen or so quotes from the development team for ME3 promising this-and-that, things that either didn't make it into the final game or were drastically different - things that anyone paying attention to the lead-up to the game could have felt reasonably betrayed and conned out of their money over. This isn't the first time in gaming history that this has happened - the only thing that really changed was scale. People are always going to be angry about unfulfilled promises that development teams make and demand refunds or fixes, but no one ever speaks out against them because they don't have the numbers. The Mass Effect debacle managed to anger a lot of people, and that's literally the only thing that changed from the norm - the numbers got bigger. But I doubt you care much about that, because the "Retake" movement's numbers make an easy target for hatred. You seem content to do the exact same thing you likely did to them before, and the same thing you're doing with me right now despite my best efforts to keep this civil with you. That's why this sentence here...

Mcoffey:
Just as I have every right to call them out as the whiny cunts they are.

...only serves as yet another unfortunate example of my original observation here...

Tuesday Night Fever:

Frankly, despite the "Retake ME3" movement's best efforts, I honestly found their opposition (like Bob) to be significantly more immature about the whole thing.

Like I said in my last post in this topic, I'd like to see a day when we as gamers can actually have civil conversations with each other rather than these profane "Us vs. Them" slugfests for one-up-manship.

animehermit:

So going by your analogy, something should function when you purchase it. I get that. What I don't get is what that has to do with the Retake movement. The game functions as advertised, there is nothing functionally wrong with the game. Returning something that doesn't work is completely different than returning something because you didn't like the last 5 minutes. This isn't a product issue, it's an artistic and opinion related one.

Then again, it's not the people wanting a refund I had trouble with, it's the people who demanded that Bioware change it to meet some mystical standard of quality.

Like I said, to them, the game doesn't function as it was advertised by the team making it. There are dozens of developer statements floating around out there with feature and story content that never made it to the final release or got drastically changed. The comment that the "Retake" people seem quickest to respond with was Casey Hudson's remark promising that ME3 wouldn't have a "A, B, or C" choice ending. If you'd like a different, but similar, analogy it'd be like bringing that TV home and finding out that it didn't come packaged with the fancy remote control that the company advertised in its commercial.

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